UPDATE: since nobody could give me the answer to the question of my prior post, Seeking an Answer to a Conundrum about the questionable validity of some Sacraments, I found the answer in the most unlikely of sources; the SSPX.
I thank them for posting this theological explanation which allays my fears and those of other serious Catholics. I would suggest that we learn from this document a true answer from Holy Mother Church rather than the ramblings of those who know not what they are talking about.
You can read it here: http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/validity_of_holy_orders.htm
All Along the Watchtower 
First I would like to thank both Phillip and Steven as each of them seemed to grasp the problem and both offered a partial explanation which is brought out in the linked to article from the SSPX. So you both have my thanks in this matter.
Others, proved to be more posturing than proof or explanation. For them, I hope they will now find a way to answer as the Church would answer; as the Church has nothing to fear from hard questions but desires to give reasons for the Faith and reasons for our expected belief that the Sacraments we receive are valid no matter what.
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Hey good brother scoop, you said nobody gave you an explanation on validity. I gave you the answer. I said that none of it means anything. Its all a joke.
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Well I learned one thing the couple of days, I can’t ever be apart of the delusion Orthodoxy historicism…
Funny thing is the guy asked me if I was embarrassed to claim that the Latin massacre led to coerced conversions? Ha! Those who never took a logic or history class could conclude such!
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My last comment was embarrassing…to me. I should have been uplifting and more accurate. Sorry. Im trying to be more specific in my later yrs. I should have said….either one is saved or one isn’t. There are no shades of grey. No increments, no classes to take. One is born again in an instant, and that is 100% born again, not kinda born again or working on it.
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Faith is not the love of God, it is the belief in Him, of Him, and toward Him. If you want to say that a person who does not love God but has faith in Him will go to Heaven when they die, you are making the startling claim that God will force someone to be with Him forever when that person actually does not love Him. You also seem to be making a mockery of the Dialogue with the Rich Young Man – one must follow the Commandments (or repent of having broken them as often as he breaks them) in order to reach eternal life, but one can do more than simply not grievously offend God… one can improve in charity in this life.
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🙂 Good luck CRM, Bosco (AKA Bozoboy87) is our pet troll here at AATW which we tolerate for he has a long history of here. Mostly he is simply ignored as he is of the Once Saved Always Saved variety who believes every word Jack Chick has ever written. But its good for you to try to set him straight. Nobody has been able to succeed yet, though an exorcism has not yet been tried. It might be the only way. 🙂
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Let’s vote. Did Ginny learn anything, or is she still eating sand?
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My guess is sand but you never know. She actually may have read the answer and is now digesting it.
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Intention is a very complex topic in sacramental theology (Thomas finds himself in the minority, among his contemporaries and among his successors, perhaps in part due to his enthusiasm to contradict Berrengar). But your question in your older post – which I only saw just now – is an easy one to answer: YES IT IS VALID. For Holy Orders, it is true that the ordinandus must actually want to be ordained, but his further intentions are entirely irrelevant for sacramental validity.
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Nor would their desire to do harm to souls – even explicitly – be sufficient for invalidating further sacraments, provided they really intended to effect the sacraments as such. (I switched the terms in my initial reading – my apologies.)
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Yes, thank you for that. Funny how hard it is to find anything on this with all the infidels in the citadel at the moment. Seems it might be a rather pertinent topic.
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Well, it is somewhat back-burner, given that mere “malicious will” is not enough to render someone an invalidity machine – the details of that controversy have a limit well below the threshold you are asking about. (For example, if a priest walks into bakery and utters the words, “This is my body,” intending to consecrate all the valid matter in the room, is it now really the Eucharist? Different authors will give different answers… The minority position, which includes Thomas, is that it would be.)
Occult realities, desires, and penalties seldom affect the validity of sacraments or acts of governance, even if those ministrations become illicit and immoral.
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Any suggested reading on this, BTW?
Another weird thought might be if the person being ordained does not have the prerequisite of being a Baptized male. Though it sounds like splitting hairs, but with all this secular movement concerning young people denying their sex and getting sex change operations in their youth I can certainly imagine that a rebellious transgender passing itself off as a male and even forging a baptismal certificate might pop up its ugly head in the future. As doubtful as it may have been in the past it certainly wouldn’t surprise me amongst the activist types that are now running for political office etc. Strange idea but still something we may need to contend with someday.
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Augustine writing against the Donatists is a main patristic source (specifically “On Baptism”), then Thomas’ tract on the sacraments gets into it as well. Bernard Leeming has a very good contemporary manual on sacramental theology, though it’s beefy. Roger Nutt has a shorter book on the sacraments which addresses some of this stuff as well.
Sex is a quasi-essential characteristic of a human being… So it can’t change. Therefore, a trans-man could not be ordained, as she would be invalid matter. Thankfully, such people are pretty easy to spot, especially for a doctor. (Physical and psychological exams are standard procedure for entering formation. No way that wouldn’t get discovered!)
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That’s good to know. I can easier imagine a forged baptismal certificate showing up somewhere . . . listing a Church that burnt down or such. Do the seminaries check each baptism individually? I am assuming anybody doing such would not be validly ordained unless baptism by desire is presumed? But that would seem to defeat the necessity for Baptismal certificates as the Church demands of all who join.
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While some records could be forged and the process manipulated sufficiently by a savvy person (the vocations folks of the Diocese of Podunk not being experts in forensic analysis or criminology), such a scenario is unrealistic. The records are just the tip of the iceberg.
From what I can tell, the vast majority of applicants to seminary, at least in the USA, are turned away, especially due to a lack of personal reference – i.e., “Who knows this guy and can vouch for him?”
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And no, baptism of desire is insufficient for valid ordination.
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I thought not. Thank you again. Appreciate your weighing in on this topic. It really had me stumped especially in regards to the old Soviet KGB activities to infiltrate the Church.
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Really. That’s interesting in itself. Good to know actually. I know a young man who was having a hard time coming up with references because he wanted to be a traditionalist priest and the Novus Ordo friends and priests of the young man would not write letters of personal reference. But at least in the wider context this is good for the Church.
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The seminaries are healthier than they appear, by and large. There are certainly some isolated cases of serious problems, but what we are doing now beats the pre-Tridentine formation models.
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Good to hear. I hope it starts producing some saints. We need a few biggies to clean out the augean stables.
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Strange, I even got a letter of reference from a Pope Francis loving Deacon who knows I’m not in his positions pocket for my M.A. in theology. If you know someone to be a decent person; who is devout in their faith, why wouldn’t you write a reference for them?
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Exactly. But your bishop has set the tone for your diocese. Others are so opposed to the TLM that they are actually hostile towards it.
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Thanks for that reassurance.
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Well done for digging this out.
If I may say – not exactly an unlikely source; SSPX are very good at theology.
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Thanks QVO. Seemed odd that you can’t find a Church document or article citing the popes and theological arguments on Google. Maybe you can, but I tried a bunch of different search terms. But SSPX popped right up after got the right terms typed in.
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BTW, how are you doing; your wife and family? Hope everything is going good.
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Extremely well, thank you. Looking forward to the new addition due in October!
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I can only imagine. It’s been a long while since I experienced that excitement. Hope mom is in good health and doing well.
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How is the world with you?
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Wife and family are doing great, my friend. As for the world I doubt there is much good any of us can pat it on the back for these days.
I did get to attend the TLM this last Sunday with my old Ignition Retreat master (the now retired Novitiate Director for the FSSP). It was good to see him and to be at his Mass. He spent a good 20 minutes after Mass in deep contemplative prayer. You won’t find that in very many Novus Ordo priests . . . if any.
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Glad to hear it.
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Well we just have to keep on truckin’ as they say. Every now and then God gives us a blessing that we probably don’t deserve but it keeps the spirit alive just about when we have nothing but an ember left of what used to be a vibrant faith.
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