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All Along the Watchtower

~ A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you … John 13:34

All Along the Watchtower

Author Archives: Struans

Being Catholic

18 Monday Jan 2016

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 9 Comments

Am I catholic?  It is a question that has occurred to me.  I suppose I am.  The photo belo2016-01-17 15.40.02w is of someone I passed by in a backstreet of Cusco, Peru, where I now write from on a flaky internet connection in a cheap and cheerful hostel.  Not the sort of place frequented by middle-class offspring of American or European well-to-do families, buying their faux Andean clothing, and dabbling in drugs, desperate to be a part of some ill-defined ‘cool culture’.  But a hostel occupied by Spanish speakers, a language I only have a passing acquaintance with, who are perhaps indulging in their own journey of sampling what ‘cool culture’ Cusco has to offer. Those who have been here will know what I mean.  However, at the risk of entering into another stream-of-consciousness Tristam Shandy style of writing, I will try to limit my digressions.

But this person in the photograph, is she  catholic?  I never spoke to her, but from a fleeting glance I have made some perhaps ill-educated guesses. She is about 80, from an Andean-Peruvian background, wearing traditional dress, and leading her llama by a small rope.  I also guess that she is catholic.

Yesterday (that’s Sunday), I arrived in Cusco after a marathon of connecting flights from my home in Hong Kong.  It was early morning, and after I had had a chance to dump my bag at the hostel, I wandered around the back streets of Cusco aiming for the main square and the Cathedral, intending to go to mass.  I arrived at about 8.50 a.m. and managed to stroll past the security guard without too much trouble – her job is to keep tourists at bay, to allow the faithful to enter and worship.  Fortunately I was publicly fiddling with my rosary beads when I passed her, a ruse that worked well, but I have recently developed an appreciation for the rosary.  And once inside my senses were overwhelmed.  The art, the music, the devotions, the people.  And it was all in Spanish.

The bishop of Cusco customarily presides at the 8 a.m. mass, and I was able to see the crowds of local people pressing forward at the benediction in hope of getting their share of the holy water that the bishop very liberally showered upon the faithful.   The richness of the atmosphere, packed as the building is, with imagery of biblical scenes and saints, both oil paintings and murals, together with vast amounts of gold and silver (in colour, but I suspect real metal too, in leaf form), and the music – taken together it overwhelmed me.  A choir,  and an organ – this YouTube video is not high quality but captures some of the atmosphere: http://youtu.be/eizdyCkKhIE. I stayed for the 9 a.m. mass.

I have never worshipped before in a language that is not my own. Leaving aside ‘visits’ when I had the mentality of a visitor, such as my participation in the English/Malayalam divine worship at the Indian Orthodox Church seminary on my trip to Kerala, or when a friend in Hong Kong took me to a Latin mass, or periodic dual language services at the Cathedral in Hong Kong where I used to worship when I was an Anglican. But to be a worshipper alone and anonymous amongst other worshippers was not something I have done before.   Of course, I recognised the liturgy – mostly – and managed to mumble parts in English under my own breath at various points.  At the passing of the peace, I was just another worshipper amongst the vast number of Preuvians present.  At the distribution, I was again just another worshipper.  Somehow, yesterday morning was when I realised that I am catholic. Perhaps I have always been catholic, in a sense.

So, perhaps now is the time.  The time to write of my coming to be catholic.  Some people have asked me to write, which is most kind.   So I will write – each person’s journey is different.   One final thing before I finish this blog post by sharing some photos of my confirmation as a catholic at St Anne’s in Hong Kong on 27 December last. I am in Cusco because I am to attend a conference of Quakers – more of which can be seen here: http://fwcc.world/.   And I leave you until next time with those photos:

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Merry Christmas Everyone

23 Wednesday Dec 2015

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 36 Comments

RCIA-DiagramJust to let you all know that I will be confirmed as a 51lysmSDaYL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_catholic at St Anne’s in Stanley, Hong Kong, where I live, this coming Sunday.   Pray for unity, and a boundary-less church.   And with humility that’s it from me – for now. Also, a graphic and a book that might be good for the questioning to understand RCIA better.  Hope you all have a loving 2016 too. S.

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Man and Woman He Created Them – Part One.

21 Friday Aug 2015

Posted by Struans in Anglicanism, Faith, Politics

≈ 45 Comments

Tags

Christianity, Church & State, controversy, Faith, Marriage

 

Hello folks!  I’ve decided to come back to write occasional posts – and thankdownload (1)s to C451 for his generous invitation to me to do so, especially after such a long absence from here.  There are still many friends around – and it’s good to see many newcomers too.

Those who remember scribblings of mine in the past will remember my sympathy for the vexatious question of ‘gay marriage’.  On many many reflections, I am glad that this subject has arisen in our contemporary and secularised societies (assuming that there aren’t many people on this blog from the ‘global south’!).  I am glad because it opens a box that makes people think.  Often, out of that box has come thoughts ill formed of one sort of another, coloured by all sorts of pre-emptive conclusions, and I have been partial to some of that in the past.

Concerning the law in England and Wales, the question of ‘gay marriage’ is a done deal, so to speak.  I have a personal interest in the question, because of people that are close to me, friends and family, are affected, so the whole issue has caused me to think very much – linked as it is so much to a whole number of issues – very very very many across a whole field of academic disciplines and real world pastoral considerations, whether one is a professional pastor or not – a professed Christian is some form of pastor whether he likes it or not.

My own reflections and conclusions have changed in some areas, but not in others.

Where my views have not changed are in particular as regards an intrinsic dislike of those shooting from the hip with all sorts of preconceived views of what others may or may not think or what preconceptions or psychological considerations may be behind views. Shooting from the hip does not often lead to good relations, whatever one’s views.   In respect of the law in England and Wales, my own views too have not changed.  I was not in favour at the time of the proposal, and my views have not changed, but I am ambivalent about any changes now.  I am a Tory party member (and a minor official indeed), and my views – so much as I can establish – are not too dissimilar to many others in the party.  That is: ambivalence. My views at the time were that a mistake was made in the 1870s or 1880s (whenever it was) when the registration duties for births, deaths and marriages was moved from the purview of the Church of England to the government.  Of course, such information is the sort of thing governments like to have their tabs on, particular from the early 20th century on with the Liberal governments welfare reforms of the previously parish based poor laws (I have read the history, but cannot quite recall the details now).  This was all before the days of computerised databases too – and goodness me, it must have been a devil of a thing to track all these governmental issues in a paper based system – thank goodness for clerks and orderly card file indices!  Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and my views are that births and deaths are fine for governments to track – who are the citizens, after all?  But marriages, on the other hand, might have been better kept with the church.  And to keep the non-conformists and Roman Catholics happy, such was the 19th century terminology, it would have been better to have a plurality of record-keepers, other than the C of E, as to who was married or not.  One can see that of course, once there is a plurality, then everyone would want to get in on the act, and today there would not doubt be marriages registries maintained by Tesco, the British Humanist Association, Stonewall, and Symingtons the solicitors, or whoever, in addition to religious bodies of various flavours, not all Christian.  The state’s laws as regards bigamy would be maintained, of course, so it would still be the case that an Islamic man couldn’t be registered in Britain as having more than one wife.

Where does all this ‘what if’ rambling lead me?   It leads me to closer understanding of what a birth is, what a death is, and – indeed – what a marriage might be.  So let me offer some reflections.  First of all, Christian tradition is clear that births and deaths are not quite as simple as one might first suppose them to be. People are born, and they die. But at the centre of Christianity is Easter, the Resurrection, and people dying to be re-born.  Indeed, perhaps these are the central concerns of the faith, but I mention them here to mark the importance of noting that these registers of births and deaths are of material or physical births and deaths, and indeed some may claim that after physical death that is not the end of the physical story of a person either.

So when a person might idly say ‘a person is born’ or dies, then there is a question as to what is meant by this.  People can now see where my thoughts might be leading me, because I see a similar parallel for the question of the category of marriage.  Is a marriage one that is spiritual or physical?  But there is a lot more to this question too than meets the eye.  Descartes’ duality has rightly long since been dismissed, so why make these dualistic distinctions for births, deaths or marriages at all?  For record keeping?  Well, there is worth in it, so it seems to me, for the good order of the physical state of God’s natural creation – humans seem to create so much of a mess, that order of human activity is a good thing.  And indeed, that is a salient point, is it not?  God wants humans, His people, the people of Israel, to keep themselves in good order.

But what of ‘marriage’?  It is of a different quality to a birth and a death, I would like to claim, as regards record keeping.  To move into questions of language can often throw up arguments and points of interest, and it is because of that that I write now. I am interested to hear the views of others on what I write.

First of all there is the question of time. I would like to claim that one of the greatest considerations impacting the Christian faith is the question of time, and the interplay between these notions of time and eternity.  To stay with the temporal, though, what is the difference between an event and a process? Is an event a process of somewhat limited time? I suppose so, and it is not clear in the meaning of words, but it is important for what I want to write next about births, deaths and marriages.

However, before I do, let us also now consider the question of salvation. Without getting into too much debate, I would like to assert that salvation is the entering of the human person, in some manner, into a life that is eternal.  Nothing new there, one might think.  But imagine the proverbial nutter on the bus. Upper deck, busy bus, and he’s the one with the ‘Jesus Loves You’ t-shirt. One sits down on the one empty seat next to him, and he turns to you and asks “are you saved?”   Is it an event or a process?  Some people differ, but I would like to assert that it is a process – and indeed, one can never quite know at one’s physical death if one might be fully rid of sin and hence to have attained a status of full salvation in one’s temporal existence.

Isn’t marriage like that too?  People talk of marriage as ‘something to work on’ and so forth, and I think that it is.  Marriage isn’t a category or an event, but a process.  Marriage liturgies refer to union as one, and so forth, but one can only know if one has been truly married in such a manner at a time after one’s marriage day, and perhaps not even if one has perfected a marriage even at one’s death.  Marriage is therefore like salvation, a process, where the judge is out with the jury – and so it’s a journey.   Married people know this, of course!  The event, however, is the sacrament that is marriage.  The sacrament is indeed an event – the public joining together, the vows, together before God.  Not all would agree, of course, and so that is why I think it right to have separate records of marriages maintained by those who have understandings of marriage in all its various forms.

Tesco, Symingtons and Stonewall might want to register marriages as a form of secular contract.  So be it.   So what of the British government ‘changing what marriage means’?  I say, nonsense !  Marriage as a status and a record has never been an event, so what the records are, as maintained by the government have been a sham (that’s a bit too strong a term, but it will do) since the record keeping was transferred from the church. Because as soon as marriage records no longer record sacramental marriages (think of all those registry office marriages), then that was the point at which ‘the government changed the meaning of marriage’.  We can all quibble further about different forms of church marriage, sacramental validity, and other religions too, but that’s the point – what the government has deemed marriage has for a long time been a matter that has been questionable, and so my ambivalence remains about the current state of affairs as regards the law in England and Wales on the matter of marriage.

There are other considerations too, of course, about marriage and the state – which are areas where Christians have an interest – particularly as regards the tax system vis-a-vis married people – the state wants to know who is married.  It used to be the case that church law applied, in England, to marriages, such as in matters where there may be trouble in a marriage and outsider taking in an interest in some form in the nature of peoples relationships. But a lot of that has been secularised, so there is an interest there too for the state to know people’s marriage status, although without getting into detail, I think that in general such matters might in hindsight have been better left too with those bodies who are concerned with the relations between human persons (church – and butt out government) although the sanction of enforceability would be needed by the state too.  This is the territory that Rowan Williams got into as regards Sharia law in England, and there is much more that could be written about this whole area of overlap. However, with my Tory hat on, this is the last point I want to make:  the matter of ‘gay marriage’ in law is more than the question of ‘endorsing sin’ or ‘equality’ or whatever the usual protests that are bandied about.

It is a question of the nature of the relationship between the state as the sole legal enforcer of laws in a land, the individuals, and those organisations which seek to engage people as where they can place their trust as regards the right and true manner in which relationships are formed and governed.  State authorities might seek to ‘approve’ such organisations (I will limit myself to churches here), or – indeed – to co-opt them, as has been the case in England since 1534, as well as church authorities seeking to ‘approve’ states as to their righteousness, as was the case – and still is to some extent – with the Vatican and its relations with states.  A sort of co-creation in the structure of right relationships between humans and the stewardship of the creation, one could say.  As for being a Tory: absolutely.  Tories (I can foresee quibbles) at heart see human relationships as being a many-to-many society, not without its facilitation by the state, but the Labour alternative (I limit myself to the British situation) is one where the individual’s primary relationship is not with his fellow citizens, or even with his family (look at the lack of seriousness in which Labour politicians take marriage, except to protest about their views on equality), but with the state.  I remain a Tory in this regard, but as to other matters, I have changed a little.  More on that perhaps next time. In another ramble.  I will read people’s comments if they are so kind as to leave me with some thoughts.  Toodle pip.

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17 things I Learned as a Catholic Psychotherapist

16 Sunday Aug 2015

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 10 Comments

Hello folks. I like this article so much I thought I’d use the WordPress ‘reblog’ function to see if it replicates across. I’ve also invited to join people here another refugee back from the Damian Thompson blog days at the Daily Telegraph. He was ‘English Catholic’ back then, but goes by another name now ‘Non Angelus’. Hope he makes himself known soon!

Just a few weeks ago, on the feast of St. Ignatius of Loyola, I left my career as a professional counselor in private group practice. The practice I created in Denver, Colorado will continue its mission under the very capable hands of a man dear to my heart, Dr. Jim Langley. Its mission to change today’s culture through clinical practice and education that is founded in a fully Catholic view of its clients, and to help clients realize the full dignity of the human person, including themselves, will indeed live on. I wouldn’t have left it any other way.

As I sit back and take some pensive moments for myself, I realize that I have learned so much working as a Catholic therapist and owning a Catholic business. Today, I would like to share the top 17 things I learned as a Catholic psychotherapist.

Why 17? Well, it first started…

View original post 2,544 more words

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My Lord and My God

10 Monday Mar 2014

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 5 Comments

Old Cross

From the King James Bible, Chapter 20, verse 28 of the Gospel of John:  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Regular readers here may be aware that I have recently been on a pilgrimage to India, titled:  In the footsteps of St. Thomas.

Twenty-eight of us had a wonderful time, participating, just a little bit, in the life of Christians in India, and it has been difficult to find the right words to explain the sheer senses of the experience. India has been said by some to be a land of contradictions, and certainly there has been some of that experienced on our trip: joy and suffering, wonderment and disbelief, kindness and cruelty, order and chaos, tenderness and tension.

With Jess’ permission I would like to comment on a few aspects of our trip in more detail in a couple more posts, but first let me share some photographs. Not so much as to brag “look where I’ve been”, but rather in the hope that they will convey feeling in addition to the words which seem to me to be inadequate to convey the experience of being there.   Perhaps people who have already been to India will have a head start to understand what I mean.

You may care to play some music whilst watching the photogallery below (which itself has no sound).  I suggest that you open this link and ‘play all’ for some wonderful hymns to help get the right atmosphere.

However, before starting the photogallery, maybe – now that you have music – you could also try to think of yourself being somewhere warm and of a pleasant humidity – rather like an Indian Summer in England, for this is what passed for the climate, roughly speaking, in Kerala in winter.

Here’s the video photogallery. I suggest you play it in full screen mode for the best effect. When in full screen mode, there is a link at the top of the screen – if you hover your mouse a bit – to improve the picture quality if it seems poor to you.

You might wish to look up Wikipedia for background information on the St. Thomas’ Cross, and on the St. Thomas Christians in general and their history.

I will write more in later posts on the churches that we went to which, so it is said, were founded by St. Thomas, and in more detail too on our meetings with the two church leaders, as well as our time at the ‘Old Seminary’ in Kottayam of the Indian Orthodox Church, including comments on the prevailing liturgies.

For those who might be scratching their heads a little at the history of the St. Thomas Christians, let me just provide a potted version, which inevitably will leave out a vast amount of information, but will nevertheless provide a framework for your own research online:

AD 52, St. Thomas arrives in Kerala, with his Gospel (about which we do not really know, but it was before any of the ‘Gospels’ that we have were written).  Most of the converts were Brahmins (upper caste Hindus)

St. Thomas went to the area of Chennai (which was countryside, well before the East India Company built Fort St. George around which Madras grew up), and was hunted by Hindus for trying to convert people. He hid in a cave, was captured, and then was martyred there.

The Portuguese came, accompanied by Latin Christianity.  The people rebelled against cack-handed Portuguese efforts to make them Latin Christians, after which there were lots of splits.

Before the Portuguese came, the St. Thomas Christians had become a part of the Church of the East, and so were dyosophytes in their Christology.  After the rebellion, they became miasyphites (except for those who went on to become Eastern Roman Catholics, who became Chalceldoneon).

The Anglican Church Missionary Society came with the British to India and provided a ‘mission of help’ to the non-Roman Catholic St. Thomas Christians, helping them to found the ‘Old Seminary’ at Kottayam, to start an intellectual base to their faith, their history having been largely destroyed by the Portuguese.  However, after a time, some of the CMS missionaries, in evangelical zeal, tried to make them into evangelicals, instead of helping them deepen their Oriental Orthodoxy, and the CMS link came to an end, except with that part that split to become what is now known as the Mar Thoma Church, in communion with Canterbury, yet with a Syraic liturgy

After Indian independence, the Presbytarian, Anglican, Methodist and Congregational churches founded by western missionaries amalgamated to become what is known as the United Churches of the Church of South India, and later on the Church of North India.  St. Georges Cathedral in Chennai is where the CSI was proclaimed. Think low church Anglicanism, but not really fire and brimstone, but quite keen on liberation for the people, because most of the Christians in India who are not in ‘Syrian churches’ and with liturgies relating to Latin Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism are from Dalit backgrounds, with all the healing of their centuries of hurts that that has brought with it.

Finally, a word about the music. Remember that what might pass for a splendid church organ in England is very difficult to upkeep in the heat and humidity, especially when you don’t have much money.  The singing and music was full of joy and was wonderful wherever we went. Even at the Little St. Thomas church in Chennai when we discovered a Latin Roman Catholic mass going on in a charasmatic style in Tamil.

There is a distinct difference between north and south India I have been told. In the south, much more English is used, as Hindi is a ‘north Indian language’ and so is resisted as the unifying Indian language.  The south tends to be cleaner and more educated than the north too, as well as safer – and we did have conversations about womens safety in India as well.

Do let me know in the comments if there’s anything particular you’d like to know, but I intend to post twice more. Firstly about the churches that St. Thomas founded, and then about the meetings with the church leaders and our time at the seminary and on the liturgies.

We gave donations to all of the churches and groups that we visited, and in the spirit of charity we received so much kindness and charity in return.  India is a religious country – not only are there no atheists in foxholes!  And in India, it is charity that is seen on display over and over again.  In particular the charitable efforts of the United Christians of Kerala that we met are worth commenting on, and I will do so later – it’s an ecumenical group of Anglicans, Orthodox and RCs, plus some of the other groups, of which there are a smattering, such as baptists and pentecostals.

I hope that this is of some interest.

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Books for Lent

05 Wednesday Mar 2014

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 6 Comments

Image

In the custom of many – usually bishops – I would like to share some books for Lent this year.   Just some recommendations of mine.
Let me assure you that I am not presuming myself to be of episcopal rank, so instead of presenting one book to recommend, I will present eight that I have found excellent over the years (and one very recently).  Take your pick:

(1) The Thoughtful Guide to Faith by Tony Windross.  Good for the curious about Christianity but claim that their intellect gets in the way.  Points at removing intellectual barriers.

(2) The Big Questions in Science and Religion by Keith Ward.  Good on all the philosophical rebuttals to scientism.  One for your curious enquirers about the church, but not to join it, but to analyse it from the outside.

(3) The Twilight of Atheism by Alister McGrath. An excellent rebuttal of the tendency of today’s youth to think that they’re onto something special when spouting the standard New Atheist claptrap.

(4) Shaping the Church by Martyn Percy.  For the serious ponderer of how church life in the parish actually matches the real world. What it’s all about, sort of thing.  Deep and excellent.

(5) Jesus by Marcus Borg.  For the person who just cannot get their head past folk Christianity and the ideas that it’s all about magic.

(6) Emotion and Spirit by Neville Symington.  A deep read into the inter-twining of psychology and faith. More on psychoanalysis than faith, but written by a former Roman Catholic priest who worked at the Tavistock Clinic in London and later emigrated down under to become president of the Australian Psychoanalytical Society.  “The Lord, the Giver of Life” I am reminded of.

(7) Can We Save The Catholic Church / We Can Save The Catholic Church by Hans Kung.  Newly arrived and almost devoured already.  A handbook for what is wrong with the church of Rome by a man who clearly loves his church and God.  Let us hope Francis picks this one for Lent, if he’s reading. He has a copy – he thanked Kung for sending him a copy!

(8) Beyond Majority Rule by Michael Sheeran. A Jesuit looks at the system of discernment adopted by the Quakers, how it operates, and looks at where it comes from and its use in the Church before its general abandonment.  A model guide for how discernment works.

And a bonus book, as I cannot leave out the Scriptures, is the King James Bible.  I am developing a new love for the KJV, in addition to the NRSV.  It’s great for oratory – and for immersing oneself in the English language and culture that is has influenced – ditto with the BCP, of course.

What are your eight books, my friends?  I bet several regulars wouldn’t touch some of mine with a bargepole, but I say, go on – give one of the more difficult ones a try.

Why eight?  It’s a lucky number out in the East.  Now eat up the last of your pancakes and order your book of choice online, before you head off to church for your ashes.

_______________________________________________________________________

And when you get back from church, another video….this one’s nice about the Pope:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIPTdtEvr40

And I’ve decided to give up getting too involved in the comments threads here for Lent. It takes too much time.

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An Apology

04 Tuesday Mar 2014

Posted by Struans in Faith

≈ 41 Comments

Well, I have to apologise.  I can see that the balance of opinion is that I made a serious error of judgement to post that video. Even non RCs here are clear on that: Geoffrey and NEO.

Let me explain:

– the video source is from a respected RC source of news that I read, here: http://www.ucanews.com/news/shocking-documentary-reveals-depth-of-scandal-at-the-vatican/70406

– having been accused of linking to ‘fishwrap’ before, the source was the Seattle Times and PBS, both of which I understood to be somewhat respected news sources.

– I watched the video, and the first bit was about the child abuse stuff, which I have consistently on this blog made a point of not pointing fingers about, and I do so again.  However, I erred in not making that clear when I posted the video, which I posted after watching the second half, which was more on target for the point that I wished to make: namely as a part of continuing dialogue with C and others about the capacity for an infallible teaching role.

 

So there you have it.   I was expecting some defence by RCs, but I had not expected the force which which it has arrived.  I think that I must have been carried away by the musical overlay as with its ‘no smoke without fire’ – and for that I must apologise.  When I go to a pentecostal church and there is overly emotional music, and on most occasions on broadcast media when there is overly emotional music, I do check myself.  I did not in this case: and for all of these shortcomings of mine, I apologise unreservedly. 

In particular, I apologise if I have upset any who have been personally affected by the child abuse issues which, whilst I was not wanting to highlight them particularly – the second half of the video was more in my mind when I posted, rather than the first – I accept that on first viewing of the video it looked as if it was child abuse focussed. 

A Question for Americans: what is PBS? I had always assumed that it’s non-profit status was akin to a UK charity, and therefore there would be some form of public service and balance requirements in its broadcasts.

I am not anti-Roman Catholic: I have said that I am a candid friend and a critic of Rome, and I think that true.  However, I accept that I may have allowed myself to be carried by those who have an agenda to hurt Rome, and again I apologise. 

I still do maintain my line of argument though that there are questions as to the capacity of the magistirium to issue infallible teaching, when there seems lots of evidence that the senior echelons are sinners like all the rest of us.  I am not saying that they don’t have the capacity to issue good teaching, not at all. However, infallibility is an ultimate position, and I maintain that it seems to be a claim too far. 

My error was to reach for an easy video, rather than to continue to sift the evidence to support my position.  

So, once again, an apology is offered. And prayers.

God bless you all.

S.

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Video

A Little Video

03 Monday Mar 2014

Posted by Struans in Commentaries

≈ 21 Comments

For those who have not had the benefit of viewing this on US TV, let me just share this:

 

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A fixed morality?

22 Saturday Feb 2014

Posted by Struans in Anglicanism, Bible, Faith

≈ 27 Comments

Tags

Catholic Church, choices, Christianity, controversy

Sir Joseph Pilling

I am grateful for your responses, and understand that you make no personal comments; indeed I appreciate and respect that in what you write here.

I think too that the church Christ founded does indeed still exist as one Church, but of course we are not going to agree on what ‘Church’ means here. Your comments on the Orthodox and the ‘others’ I sense are a somewhat incomplete view. “Stalled”? I don’t think that the right term, but it is interesting when RCs object to Orthodoxy – it highlights the often seen cognitive dissonance of many RCs in debate when the claim of ‘no change’ by Rome is contrasted with the jibe made of the Orthodox that they never changed to follow the innovations that Rome brought into the church. “Giving up traditions to remain alive”? This again is a somewhat odd view. One is alive in Christ – that is all that matters. Traditions come and traditions go – what might now be thought of as traditional inevitably once will have been novel. Tradition is living, not ossified.

So let me turn to your point where you claim that I have not put up a defence for a morality that is held along with the historic ecumenical councils and creed. In one sense you are right, but I also claim that you are wrong. If one adheres to Trinitarian faith, in a prayerful and diligent manner then inevitably the Spirit will keep one drawn towards morality. I think what you mean is that I don’t articulate a fixed morality, in some form of clear code. You are right. That is not – so I charge – what Christian faith is about. Now, I am not saying that such things do not have a use from time to time as helping tools in that narrow path towards a Godly life of gospel order, but I do hold that humans are not able definitively say what such a code would be in its totality.

Let me expound further on what I mean by Trinitarian faith. Of course, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, but it is the Son that particularly I want to focus on. We worship this Trinitarian God. God the Son, Jesus Christ, is the Way, the Truth and the Life. This is one of the persons of our Triune God. The Way, the Truth and the Life – He is not a fixed code that has been captured by humans to transmit.

It is not that “traditional morality” is pliable, but that “traditional morality” (in the sense of what I think you mean by this) was never fixed in the first place. Are you claiming that Christian perfection was reached within in the nascent church as seen in the pages of the Bible?

The church of Rome might hold certain traditions as immutable – I don’t know – but if it does then I would like to know which traditions these are and on what basis it can claim to have the knowledge of their immutability.

It’s an oft told tale that “the court of public opinion” is the reason for this and for that, even if people state otherwise. If that is the opinion of some, and they want to hold it to be true, then so be it, whether it is right or wrong. For myself, I am not one to put enormous value in any such court.

Re a consumerist church, I think you again are mis-reading the purpose for which developments in theology may have occurred. If you put such developments down to the aforementioned court, then you may well have come to a consumerist opinion, but I would like to note that the purposes for the developments may not actually be as you suppose. More likely is for the purposes of God – to discern his Truth.

Now, I am glad to hear of your position as to context. I would find it odd if a Christian could not say that context is at least of some importance. I sense though that you don’t see the Bible as a series of developments through time. Certainly the ten commandments were thought at one point to be a good discernment of the will of God for the people to live by. However, as can be seen in the text, that development continued.

I do not disagree that the divine is immutable – indeed, I hold that it is – but as regards your comment on ‘divine context’, let me say that ‘context’ is a part of creation, so there is no divine context except in the sense that the divine is present in the created order too.

Many thanks for the comments – I do hope that we continue to discuss.

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Truth: relative and absolute

21 Friday Feb 2014

Posted by Struans in Anglicanism, Bible, Faith

≈ 127 Comments

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Catholic Church, Christianity, controversy, history

Pope+Benedict+XVI+Visits+Jerusalem+Church+SlLB-OYY9ekl

Your serious, measured and considered reply deserves a similar answer; I shall attempt one, trying to go through the points as you raise them.

In terms of your liturgies, yes, I am aware of much of your church in Asia, and have just been to India and some ‘Eastern Catholic’ parishes (I will tell of my travels soon!)

I don’t see why a more ‘horizontal’ governance, to use your description, should mean that it “eliminates the possibility of continually holding in to” divine Truth, or anything immutable. Perhaps you can explain why you think this so – I am genuinely interested. For me, it seems that history is the obvious proof of the falsity of your assertion – all of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, RCs, and a lot of Bible outfits will adhere to the Nicene Creed. I don’t think Anglicans would claim that they can change that irrespective of the rest of the church – we hold to the five great ecumenical councils, after all.

I wouldn’t characterise the model I suggest is superior as ‘democratic’, as that tends to suggest that ‘all have an equal vote’. That’s not how group discernment works. It’s messy to be sure, but there are some in whom we place special duties to continue the faith of the church in the episcopate – as with all episcopal churches. You are right in that I sometimes do suggest that your church is autocratic, and you raise some good points to counter that – thank you.

I do not argue wholly for relative truth at all – I do hold that there is absolute truth to be found in the Trinity, so there is no ‘discount’ of mine as you suggest. Where have I suggested, as you seem to indicate, that “Christ was merely a human teacher in a particular context”? You then raise the RC claims to be the sole true lineage from Christ – but we’ve been there, and your claim is unsustainable, yet even if your claim were true, it doesn’t mean that I have denied that there is no absolute truth.

In terms of a ‘change from His way to our way’ and the ‘excuse of context’, I find this a puzzle. How do you understand ‘His way’ if one somehow seems to remove the context from his life – is it possible? You seem to suggest that it might be by calling context an excuse.

I am genuinely puzzled by some of your comments. Often I have the sense that we’re speaking past one another. Sometimes I fully understand you, but other times it seems to me that your faith is something which I have not come across before!

Thanks for commenting and engaging once again

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