It seems to me that marriage has a very specific historical and cultural, specifically religious, understanding that has never, at least until very recently, had anything whatsoever to do with interpersonal love and the like. Marriage, for most of human history, has been about child bearing, community building, legitimacy, and inheritance—affairs of the state, so to speak. Of course, within the Church, which was the state in the West and the East for a time, marriage was also symbolic, of salvation, divine love, the Trinity, etc, but even still St Paul thought it of little worth “it is better to marry than to burn with lust.” (1 Cor. 7.9)
Indeed the RCC didn’t make it officially a sacrament until the 12th century. The Reformers didn’t even think it worthy of being made a sacrament when they broke from the Church as it didn’t meet their requirements of being founded by Jesus, preserved by the Apostles, and codified by the early Church. And, moreover, outside of marriage’s symbolic function in the Church, while spiritually refreshing, was miniscule in importance when compared to the weightier matters of inheritance and procreation, which were the primary drivers of marriage’s societal significance.
So, this rather modern idea that marriage is about romantic love is nonsensical. It’s not. Never has been. Of course friendship and interpersonal love have a part to play in marriage, no question, but only insofar as they accompany any relationship worth having, sexual or not. But romantic love is to be distinguished from marriage in much the same way that a person’s appearance is to be distinguished from that person.
However, what is happening in modern society is the secularizing of a religious custom by re-defining marriage as solely constituted by romantic love, as if the historical, cultural, specifically religious, context matters not, and all the responses in protest to this idea by means of natural law and the like miss the boat entirely, for that approach concedes the initial assumption—that marriage is, entirely, about earthly or human love, that is, interpersonal love, romantic love, eros. Given that assumption, there is no compelling secular argument against gay marriage, unless I am unaware of persuasive sociological data that clearly demonstrates the adverse social effects of gay sexual relationships (some recent data has been interpreted as demonstrating the adverse social effects of gay sexual relationships, but it is not clear to me what that data says).
Of course, there is no need to concede the assumption because it is plainly false, not only as a matter of history and culture, but also as a matter of a logically consistent metaphysics. For romantic love, not only in marriage, but in itself, only makes sense within the context of a sensible metaphysics with an accompanying spiritual symbolism; that is, when sexual and interpersonal love is directed toward some transcendental end, some deeper truth—the Good, for instance.
Indeed the irony here is that the best articulation of marriage being about romantic love is a distinctly Christian or, at the very least, religious or Platonic or what have you apology. That is, human love apologetics is a coherent elucidation of marriage only within a sufficiently religious or mystical metaphysics, where the destination of all love and desire is love and desire as such, that is, Love itself, the Good itself, Beauty itself, that is, God, properly understood.
Now, sure, the religious symbolism of marriage can be appropriated for secular purposes, as much religious symbolism has been over the centuries, but love, as modern society understands it, only makes sense when operating within some appropriate metaphysical system, where the signposts of that system point, beyond themselves, to deeper, more transcendent truths. Otherwise, love is mere sexual attraction or the gratification of desire or sensual pleasure or what have you. Consequently, it is no longer love, at least not the sort of love that modern society talks about in bad novels and superficial magazines and dreadful romantic comedies—unifying, conquering, social-norm-defying, dignity bestowing, and so on, love, the love of the Beatles song lyric, “all you need is love,” the supererogatory, extraordinary, non-obligatory kind of love.
Naturally, most of modern society agrees—“these are consenting adults who love each other” is the popular sentiment amongst folks of my generation concerning marriage, love and private choice being emphasized here.
But that sort of love, the dignity bestowing kind, is not a lucid and coherent concept when stripped of its metaphysical referents, love is not a metaphysical signification that can be situated in just any old metaphysical system. For instance, how could a naturalistic, materialistic understanding of love preserve the popular, common sense conviction about marriage as a dignity bestowing, love obsessed, eternal institution? It could not, at least not and remain logically consistent.
Indeed it is not so much that marriage, as a legal and social custom, bestows dignity on the persons being married—that is not the secular understanding of marriage at all—but that interpersonal love, romantic love, constitutes marriage as such, and, as a result, bestows dignity on married couples. Modern society thinks that marriage is synonymous with human love, with some legal documents and societal rituals attached. And, although in practice that statement is difficult to justify, I understand the sentiment—in the Orthodox Church, for instance, marriage is not a legal contract. But my point is simply that that understanding of love and marriage is only clear and coherent within the appropriate metaphysics, particularly a religious metaphysic.
However, what I am not saying is that people cannot be non-religious and be in love or religious and not be in love or what have you. I am merely stating that any proper understanding of love, be it romantic or not, must have some element of the transcendent; some final end or purpose, some telos, towards which it is striving, and this directedness toward the Agape immanent in and beyond all things can happen for atheists and theists alike, if it could not, it would not be love.
But to strip love of its metaphysical referents is to strip love of its meaning and its power. It can no longer bestow dignity, mend broken families, give aid to the poor, help the sick, and so forth, because that sort of love requires some non-natural element, some Logos or Agape immanent in all things or at least some transcendental end to be the ultimate destination of all desire as such. For instance, we don’t say that sexual attraction or the gratification of desire or sensual pleasure is dignity bestowing or can change the world for the better, do we? No. In fact, we probably say the opposite. But we do say that love can do those things.
If love is nothing more than biology, it cannot be what we think it is, and it cannot do what we want it to do. It cannot change the world, because it can never point beyond itself to the true reality; it cannot fundamentally alter our vision of the world; it cannot escape the baser instincts and selfish tendencies of our species; it cannot act as our better angels.
Of course, evolutionary origins and genetic analysis and brain mapping may one day explain the neurophysiology of love, but that is just chemical sensations and neuropeptides and what have you, that no more explains love, properly understood, than a bicycle explains how to ride a bicycle. Love inspires self-sacrifice and total commitment to others. Love asks us to go beyond the call of duty, to act in ways that are not morally obligatory, to do the extraordinary, to do things that are not self-serving or instinctual. Indeed love asks us to rebel against our natural drives—to help the poor in Liberia or the dispossessed in Syria or criminals in prison; to love our enemies; to give to those who would steal from us; to love God and man. But scientific theories cannot ask these things of us because science cannot tell us what we ought to do. Scientific theories can predict and explain and unify natural phenomena, but scientific theories cannot act as the Cross on a hill pointing beyond itself to a world filled with love.
But if love carries with it ultimate significance, as the Cross intimates, then its power is limitless, on this point the modernists align themselves with Christ and St. Paul and St. John—love is a world-changer in the appropriate context.
Simply put, human love is not about Eros so much as it is about Agape. Eros is merely an instantiation of Agape, that is, Eros images Agape, Eros participates in Agape, to borrow from Plato. Agape is the essential nature of Eros; agape is the human loves’ essence. Human love, at least the common sense understanding of it, only makes sense within this metaphysical context. And, as such, any conception of marriage must account for this understanding of human love—one cannot infer the desired conclusion from any old set of premises. One cannot get the love of Christ, for instance, from naturalistic premises. And one cannot get marriage as entering a new reality without Christ—no matter the vows; no matter the promises; no matter the contract; no matter how much one person loves the other person.
However, modern society wants to do precisely that: to keep all the good stuff about love but not the metaphysical principles that justify it. Alas…any understanding of marriage that is built on so flimsy an understanding of love is doomed to collapse at the slightest breath of reality.
Of course, I should not be surprised at the banality of our age, where the insatiable thirst for more and more things and more and more desires is shaped and sustained. We are a society obsessed with buying stuff; with gratifying desires; with removing more impediments blocking the gratification of such desires. In such a society, ultimate goods give way to immediate goods. And such a society is, at least implicitly, non-Christian. Our holy texts are bad novels and Amazon; our religious duty is shopping and sex; our faith is private choice.
God becomes just another impediment standing in the way of our pleasure seeking. Christian virtues give way to greed and pride; lust and envy.
Transcendent values have no place in such a society, so they are replaced by price tags and pleasures.
Reblogged this on No Man's Land.
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Though I haven’t had time to thoroughly study this post and will be going out for a bit: I would like to state that it is bit deceiving to place matrimony as a a sacrament at such a late date unless you take into consideration that we lumped many of the graces and mysteries and holiness that God confers on us in certain rites without setting them apart. See the Catholic Encyclopedia on this first: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm
Be sure to read St. Paul i Ephesians 5:22 and following.
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I am pretty sure the first official declaration was at the Council of Verona–1184.
And I don’t straightforwardly contradict what you say although there was a large contingent from the early Fathers to the 12th century that didn’t think very much of marriage. Indeed some even refused to recognize it as a sacrament, which led to the need for an official declaration.
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Indeed. there was a statement by Tertullian in the article which puts the emphasis on the action of God in marriage. So ‘officially’ I can buy but that it was known and accepted – similar to things like our pronouncement on the assumption of marriage doesn’t mean that it wasn’t already part of the faith.
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Yes, I agree with that.
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Hello SF. Where can I find the statement by Tertullian that you mention? Neither the Synod of Verona nor the Third Lateran Council (which preceded the Synod) even mentions the Sacrament of Matrimony. NM’s claim is that we either invented the Sacrament of Matrimony or somehow made it a dogma at said Synod. Tha tis where I’m taking him to task. Only that claim. We don’t invent Sacraments out of thin air nor do we dogmatize them at different points in time. He is misinformed I think, and acting on his misinformation. In charity, it is important to present the facts, like you do do so well, and straighten out the mix up. Help me out here. What are you referring to in Tertullian. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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It is on the link I gave NML at the Catholic Encyclopedia. Its a long article but the quote is about half way down.
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Found it thanks. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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You’re welcome.
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The relevant paragraph is this:
As early as the second century we have the valuable testimony of Tertullian. While still a Catholic, he writes (“Ad Uxorem”): “If therefore such a marriage is pleasing to God, wherefore should it not turn out happily, so that it will not be troubled by afflictions and needs and obstacles and contaminations, since it enjoys the protection of the Divine grace?” But if Divine grace and its protection are, as Tertullian asserts, given with marriage, we have therein the distinctive moment which constitutes a religious action (already known for other reasons as a sign of Divine grace) an efficacious sign of grace, that is, a true Sacrament of the New Dispensation. It is only on this hypothesis that we can rightly understand another passage from the same work of Tertullian (II, ix, in P.L., I, 1302): “How can we describe the happiness of those marriages which the Church ratifies, the sacrifice strengthens, the blessing seals, the angels publish, the Heavenly Father propitiously beholds?”
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Ginny the idea that marriage was a sacrament had been around since the early Fathers, sure, but there was no official declaration until the 12th century.
Also the opinion of a heretic is not binding on any Catholic I wouldn’t think.
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Fair point though. So I changed the wording to officially. 🙂
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I’ve never looked into the official Catholic adoption, but you’re exactly correct as to why Luther et. al. decided it wasn’t a sacrament.
More importantly, excellent article. :).
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Thanks. 🙂
I’m glad you got something out of it. I can ramble confusingly at times.
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Well, not here you didn’t – most interesting indeed.
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Thanks. 🙂
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Can’t we all? You didn’t on this one though! I need to reread it a couple of times, but your main thrust on marriage is spot on, I think. 🙂
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I suppose so. 🙂 Thanks again.
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FYI No Man’s, the Catholic Church did not invent the Sacrament of Matrimony in the 12th century. Okay? If you’re going to talk about us, please get the facts straight. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. Can I ask the source you used for your history of our church and it’s Sacraments? It might help.
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I did not say it did ginny. I said it didn’t officially dogmatize on it until then.
Council of Verona–1184.
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Hello No Man’s. Here a brief outline of the Synod of Verona. Note it is a Synod, and not a Council, minor to a Protestant, but two different things to a Catholic. We are about to have another Synod, one on the Family in October, as I’m sure you may have heard if your up to speed on Catholic stuff in the news. However, according to the few outlines I’ve looked regarding the Synod you mention, there is nothing to validate the claims that you make about a Sacrament of Matrimony being invented at said Synod.
“At the Synod of Verona in 1184, Lucius, in agreement with the Holy Roman emperor Frederick I Barbarossa, decreed the excommunication of heretics and their protectors; after ecclesiastical trial, heretics who refused to recant were transferred to civil authorities for punishment—usually death by burning. Lucius’ synod activated the strict decrees of the third Lateran Council (1179); founded the medieval Inquisition to repress and punish heretics; and instigated the church’s attack against the Cathari, a heretical sect that held that good and evil had separate creators. Apart from Frederick’s promise to renew the Crusades, relations between Emperor and Pope were strained.” http://www.britannica.com/biography/Lucius-III
Note there is nothing in the article that states that they were even concerned with marriage. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny the Cathari thought marriage was evil. Also the Waldeneses, another sect, were represented at Verona, and they disagreed that marriage was a sacrament. They would be set straight by Innocent III in 1208.
But here you go:
Here
Here
Here
Here
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Okie dokie No Man’s got a good response ready, but I’m short on time. Gotta catch a bus and they don’t wait for little ole me. I’ll write more later on all four sources but not now. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Okie dokie, No Man’s. I’m back. Thunderstorms got us thrown out of the pool so I’m home a little early. Here goes:
Link # 1 – provides a history of the theology but not of the Sacrament.
Link # 2 – St. Thomas is not acknowledge the existence of a Sacrament, but that it imparts grace.
Link # 3 – A Canon Law discussion is again not an acknowledgement of the beginning of a Sacrament at any point in time. However, this does mention Trent responding to Protestant’s rejection of a Sacrament of Matrimony. Applying simple logic to this argument, ends the debate; if the Sacrament didn’t exist already in time, then there would not be anything to reject or challenge or defend. So bump that one too.
Link # 4 – Mr. German Martinez is incorrect as I’ve already pointed out as there NEVER was a Council of Verona, only a Synod. To a Protestant, the two can be considered synonymous, but to us Catholics they have different purposes and powers and a Synod is only advisory, not binding. It is bound by a Council and the Coulcil that did a bunch of binding prior to the Synod in question is the Third Lateran Council. This is a big boo boo coming from a Catholic and I suppose if I bought a copy of Mr. Martinez’s text, I’d probably find a few more such boo boos. He is probably about as orthodox a Catholic in his theology as Kasper is in his book Jesus the Christ, et al.
So there ya go. Ginntyfree’s spin on things. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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First, the popular synod-council distinction is a recent development in Christianity. One can call it the Council of Verona, for that is precisely what it was, as long as one knows that it was a local council. Just like I could call the 5th ecumenical council the 5th general synod.
However, the synod-council distinction has no bearing on what is claimed in the OP, which is that the RCC did not officially declare marriage a sacrament until the Synod (Council) of Verona. Nothing you have said contradicts this historical fact.
Second, I have not said that the RCC originated marriage as a sacrament in the 12th century. I have only said that it did not dogmatically pronounce on it until the 12th century. In much the same way that the RCC did not make an official declaration on transubstantiation until the Fourth Council of the Lateran and did not define it until the Council of Trent.
Third, the Cathari did not deny that marriage was a sacrament they denied that marriage was a good. Indeed they thought that marriage was totally evil. Hence the official declaration by the Council of Verona that it was not only a good, something which many ancient and medieval Christians seemed to question, but sacramental. Only after the local Council of Verona does the Waldensian sect refuse to recognize marriage as a sacrament.
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Hello No Man. Can you please provide one actual textbook of history that affirms your claim.
“However, the synod-council distinction has no bearing on what is claimed in the OP, which is that the RCC did not officially declare marriage a sacrament until the Synod (Council) of Verona. Nothing you have said contradicts this historical fact.”
You won’t be able to because it isn’t true. Ya might be able to pull the wool over the eyes of a small group of people who have no knowledge of three things: A. what the Church has always believed and taught about the Sacraments, B. no working knowledge of history, and C. only believe what they are told by folks like you who won’t go digging around in the record (and this includes the text of the Bible) for the rest of the story.
God bless and nice try. Next time use real facts. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny if you don’t tone down the rhetoric, you will not be commenting on this thread any longer.
Keep the ad hom to yourself. I have no problem dealing with legitimate objections, and you have provided some, but one more ad hom comment from you and I promise your comments will not escape the seventh circle of moderation.
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Excuse me No Man’s! Are you actually trying to threaten me? Into silence??? Please. Do not threaten me. It’s rude. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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No, Ginny, personal insults and rhetorical questions are rude.
And I have not attempted to silence you. Indeed, I welcome your objections. I only ask that you refrain from fallacious ad hom attacks when commenting on this thread. I am only attempting to cultivate an atmosphere of Christian civility here. I will not let this thread become what a previous thread became.
Thanks.
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And so you know here is a link to the entire text of said SYNOD: http://professor-moriarty.com/info/files/resources/verona1184.txt
Thank you very much Professor Moriarity! Go team! Rah Rah! God bless. Ginny free.
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Ginny merely restating the objection in another form of words is not going to make it any more palatable.
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And another thing. Synods do not declare anything dogmatic silly man. You cannot make a dogma at a Synod or a Council. They don’t just get together and discuss what folks should believe and then declare it to the world. But you’d know this if you knew the difference between a Council and a Synod. And if you understood what Dogma actually is for it is none other then the highest order of truth contained in our faith. It is the whole truth and nothing but the truth as taught by Christ to the Apostles and was given them whole and entire before His Ascension into Heaven. It is as unchanging as the God who gave it to us. No new dogmas ever ever ever get made, created, invented, or declared ever since, nor will there be ever. Get it? Got that? Good. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, I thought I was pretty clear in explaining how one can use synod and council synonymously.
My point was that you can use the words interchangeably as long as you don’t say that the council of Verona was a general or ecumenical council. A look at the etymology of these two words might help.
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No, you cannot use the terms interchangeably. A Synod is an advisory panel. A Council is a gathering set to determine matters of faith and morals. Blurring the lines so as to avoid the real issue isn’t working. That is a smokescreen behind which you intend to attempt to conceal your mistake.
Every Catholic knows the Sacraments were instituted by Christ while He lived and ministered among us. All Seven were given to us prior to His Ascension. How they developed into the rituals we have today is a matter of development, not actual reality. Your big boo boo was saying that we invented a Sacrament of Matrimony in the 12th century at the Council of Verona. The Synod of Verona do not as you say, officially declare marriage a Sacrament. This is a distortion of facts and a misrepresentation of Church history. You still haven’t produced a reliable text of the supposed declarations which were made there. However, you can’t because there are none. And if you manage to silence me with your threats, you think no one here will challenge your misrepresentations of our Church’s history. But you forget, others can read and are very aware of Who gave us the Sacraments and when. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Again, Ginny, I never said the RCC “invented” in the Latin’s second sense of that word, the sacrament of marriage at Verona.
The irony here is that if you deny the official declaration of Verona, then the official declaration will only come at a later point in time like the Council of Florence.
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Her is what was actually said at said Synod about Sacraments in general, matrimony being listed among the others as one of them all:
The Sacraments (against the Albigenses)
[From the decree “Ad abolendum” against the heretics]
402 All who, regarding the sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, or regarding baptism or the confession of sins, matrimony or the other ecclesiastical sacraments, do not fear to think or to teach otherwise than the most holy Roman Church teaches and observes; and in general, whomsoever the same Roman Church or individual bishops through their dioceses with the advice of the clergy or the clergy themselves, if the episcopal see is vacant, with the advice if it is necessary of neighboring bishops, shall judge as heretics, we bind with a like bond of perpetual anathema.
So, now what is being said it that those who claim said Sacraments aren’t well, Sacramental, and who teach contrary to what the Church teaches about them are for henceforth and forever condemned as accursed. If you look hard enough you will see the Church actually substantiating what I’ve said: that we’ve always believed and taught that matrimony is a Sacrament instituted by God for those whose vocation is to the married state. Feel better yet? No. Oh well. I hope so. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, the RCC did not make an official declaration on marriage as a sacrament until the 12th century. This is a historical fact.
However, the fact that the Church has always taught marriage as a sacrament, though not as important as other sacraments, is a matter for the RCC. I am not Catholic so I could care less whether the RCC invents–although a look at the etymology of that word might also be helpful–dogma or not.
The point is that none of what you have said on this thread contradicts the plain fact that the RCC did not officially declare marriage as a sacrament until the 12th century.
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Hello No Man’s. To refresh your memory, here is the exact wording of your claim against the Church:
“Indeed the RCC didn’t make it officially a sacrament until the 12th century. ”
These are your exact words.
This is not true as any Catholic can tell you.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Oh Hello! I found this nice little quote by Tertullian regarding Marriage:
“How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in home, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice . . . Nothing divides them either in flesh or in spirit . . . They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another. Side by side they visit God’s church and partake God’s banquet, side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another; they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts . . . Seeing this Christ rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present.”
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/127633-how-beautiful-then-the-marriage-of-two-christians-two-who
Lovely isn’t it? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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BTW, why aren’t you taking SF to task on his link to the encyclopedia of all things Catholic at New Advent? Hmmmmmmmmmmm…………….
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For starters, I responded to SF. Did you read the comments? We discovered that we agree. What more is there to say?
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I also pointed out that the opinion of a heretic is not binding on any Catholic.
But SF’s point was more that Tertullian’s relevant writings demonstrate that the sacramental understanding of marriage was common amongst Christians of that period. Fine. I have no problem with that as I said to SF. It still does not change the fact that the RCC did not officially declare marriage a sacrament until the 12th century.
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Hello No Man’s. I’m just wondering why you keep repeating this same thing over and over: “It still does not change the fact that the RCC did not officially declare marriage a sacrament until the 12th century.” It isn’t true. The sacraments were instituted by Christ while He was among us. How we actually express their reality in our rituals has changed over the years, but the actual integrity of each Sacrament comes from God.
I’m glad you shared that you aren’t a Catholic and don’t really care about things Catholic, but I’m curious why you present yourself as if you are an authority on things Catholic. You can make the above statement over and over and over again, but it will never change the Sacraments. They are instituted by Christ and each is an encounter with Him Who is their Author. God is a living God and He is present in each Sacrament, from Baptism all the way through Extreme Unction. He lives and breaths and moves in and through us through them. He gives us His very life in them, all of them. Matrimony’s graces empower the couple to live their life in and through and for Christ. It is the powerhouse of grace that keeps them faithful and blessed. I guess I’ve said enough. I really can’t expect you to have a Catholic understanding of things, but please don’t try to speak for my Church. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, for the last time, I do not deny this! In fact, I have never said the sacraments were not instituted by Christ– although if I were a Protestant, the fact that marriage was around before Christ might give me pause–because I believe they were!
I have merely said that the Church did not officially declare marriage a sacrament until the 12th century.
Take special note of the second and third paragraphs
Again, I have not said the RCC invented the sacrament of marriage in the 12th century. On the contrary, I have only pointed out that the Church did not, as the linked article says, expressly and formally include it among the other sacraments.
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Go back up to the part of the declarations from the SYNOD of Verona and read what it says. There you will find instead of an affirmation of your assertion, an anathema that well, guess what? It applies to you No Man’s.
Here’s why: I am quoting you exactly:”Ginny, the RCC did not make an official declaration on marriage as a sacrament until the 12th century. This is a historical fact.”
But the very SYNOD you rely on to “prove” this false claim clearly states ” All who, regarding the sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, or regarding baptism or the confession of sins, matrimony or the other ecclesiastical sacraments, do not fear to think or to teach otherwise than the most holy Roman Church teaches and observes…………….we bind with a like bond of perpetual anathema.” That is the Pope speaking and he is saying that those who make the claim like you are making are anathema. It says those who do not fear to teach otherwise than the Church has always taught regarding the Sacraments is accursed and a heretic. This is no declaration of a matrimony being as you say, officially a sacrament. Those words just aren’t there. So, I ask one more time, can you please provide a credible source for your assertions that matrimony wasn’t considered a sacrament until 1184? You cannot because it isn’t true. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, for the love of God, I have never (read NEVER) said “matrimony wasn’t considered a sacrament until 1184.”
I said what you quoted: “Ginny, the RCC did not make an official declaration on marriage as a sacrament until the 12th century. This is a historical fact.”
These two statements do not say the same thing, Ginny.
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