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Continuing yesterday’s post.
Original Sin and Polygenism
Ferrara asserts, “…polygenism cannot be reconciled with Genesis unless Genesis is reduced to a fable.”
Well, a genetic bottleneck of only two human beings as recent as the arrival of Homo sapiens would show up in our genomes. And it doesn’t, as studies based on genetic data from the Human Genome Project have shown.
Furthermore, genetic data demonstrate quite plainly, as recent studies have shown, that the genes of Homo sapiens do not originate from only two people in the last few million years of hominins. Beginning with the genetic data of the Human Genome Project, evolutionary geneticists work backwards from the genetic diversity of Homo sapiens to more ancient lineages, confirming in the process that the human population could not have been smaller than about 10,000 individuals. So, there was a population “bottleneck”—a strong indication that there is recent common ancestry in all humans—but it was nowhere near two people, which, among other things, seems to suggest that the evolutionary understanding of polygenism is not polygenism traditionally conceived.
Indeed, it seems very likely, at least from an empirical perspective, that we, modern humans, evolved from a small population, not a pair in a garden, but, of that small population, only a limited subset left descendants (or could leave descendants), which is not at all unexpected, given all genealogy works in this way, with most everyone leaving no ultimate descendants, and a very precious few capable of patrimony and matrimony. So, it is perfectly plausible that only a select few “Adams” and “Eves” left ultimate descendants, which makes it more reasonable to speculate that there was a metaphysically distinct male and female pair that was the origin of sin, as Edward Feser imagines.
Of course, the above theological approach requires a figurative understanding of early Genesis. But the idea that the Creation narrative is a fable is not at all a novel idea anyway.
I should mention, though, that I prefer the term “myth” over “fable”. And I prefer the ancient understanding of myth over the modern one. Indeed in modern culture the term ‘myth’ seems to be synonymous with untrue or silly or what have you, but for the ancients it meant something altogether different: myth was a way of revealing existential facts; a way of articulating a metaphysical vision about the world; a way for a culture to tell itself about itself, although, perhaps, my preference for and understanding of myth only reveals my metaphysical prejudices. Oh well… I digress.
Many scholars and theologians—since the early days of Christianity—have recognized the allegorical nature of Genesis. Indeed many present-day Christians probably interpret several passages in Genesis non-literally without even realizing it (Gen. 3.9—Adam and Eve hid from God).
For example, within the very first passages of Genesis two different Creation narratives are offered up. In Chapter 1 through the early verses of Chapter 2 one gets the standard creation narrative, in which God creates man and woman on the sixth day after light, earth, fish, and so forth. However, in chapter 2 verse 4, a different narrative begins, in which God creates man, then messes about with the garden and creates animals, and only after this is completed, does God create woman from Adam’s rib.
Of course, these two differing narratives are not contradictory, if the two narratives are understood as only attempting to express a deep existential fact about reality—that the world was created by God and that we are his creatures. But I would argue that they cannot both be historically and scientifically correct, if all of Genesis is seen as descriptive fact.
The Bible is inerrant in spiritual truth, in matters of faith, but not in matters which are of little significance to the moral and spiritual vision of the Christian life. Hence Augustine, in his commentary on Genesis, asserted, “In the matter of the shape of heaven, the sacred writers did not wish to teach men facts that could be of no avail for their salvation.”
Augustine is echoed by Joseph Ratzinger: “The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God…does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are.”
Augustine even worked out a doctrine of rationes seminales (seminal principles) that attempted to explain the origin of species and solve the problem of Genesis 1.3-19 where it says that God creates light on the first day but the Sun on the fourth day. In fact, Augustine went so far as to comment that the words “light” and “days” have no literal understanding in this context, which is probably the most popular exegetical conviction in all of western Christianity.
Moreover, Augustine’s doctrine of rationes seminales could conceivably be extended into a doctrine of the evolution of species, because it postulates that, while all things were created at once, all things did not exist fully formed simultaneously. But I digress.
The exegesis of Augustine, Ratzinger, and so many others ranging from the writer of the Epistle of Barnabas and Philo and the Alexandrian Fathers to Origen and Ambrose to Aquinas and Anselm to C.S. Lewis and Karl Barth, reminds us, I think, that the Bible is about faith in God; it is not an authority on scientific matters; its purpose is not scientific, but religious.
Furthermore, classical Christianity does not even understand the creation of the world as some origin or evolution of the universe as such. The question of creation is not about some event or events that occurred at the Big Bang or in some primordial soup or in the incorporation of DNA and proteins or the change from hominid to Adam or any kind of change at all, for change implies existence, the classical understanding of creation has always been concerned with the timeless relation “between logical possibility and logical necessity, the contingent and the necessary, the conditioned and the unconditioned,” as Hart stated. “The mystical,” Wittgenstein once remarked, “is not how the world is but that it is.”
Creation, properly understood, serves to remind us that “every creature exists by grace, because by grace he was created,” as Anselm noted. That is, God created the universe and all that therein is. Hence, we owe our existence to him. It is by his grace that we exist at all.
Of course, the rub for Mr. Ferrara, as it is for many Christians, is that polygenism seems to pose a threat to the doctrine of original sin—the sinful state of humanity as a result of the Fall, which is precisely the sort of thing that, prima facie, could be of significance to the moral and spiritual vision of the Christian life. Perhaps, if one is overly attached to some strange pre-Fall period of original innocence when man knew God perfectly, then this line of thought may have some merit (although God wasn’t trying to create mechanical automatons, was he?). But, alas, the orthodox Christian need not commit herself to the Augustinian tradition on original sin, which is a poor understanding of Pauline theology anyway.
Indeed the Augustinian understanding of original sin was nothing if not a theological attempt to guarantee that man rather than God would be held responsible for the Fall; a noble attempt to uphold the goodness of God in much the same way Hermogenes was motivated to maintain God created the world out of preexisting matter to save God from the responsibility of evil. But, much like Tertullian reminded Hermogenes, there are better ways to achieve this same end. Indeed ways that salvage common sense and science, and in Tertullian’s case, God, as classical Christianity understands him.
In fact, John Hick reminds us, in Evil and the God of Love, that even before the time of Augustine an additional reply to creation and sin had already been put forward within the emerging Christian tradition, one that depended upon the Greek-speaking Fathers, of whom the most influential was St. Irenaeus.
Irenaeus, in Against Heresies, according to Hick, distinguished two stages of the creation of mankind. In the first stage, man was brought into existence as a rational agent endowed with the ability to experience great moral and spiritual development. For Irenaeus, man was not the innocent pre-fallen Adam and Eve of the Augustinian tradition, but an under-developed creature, at the start of a long journey of spiritual and moral development.
In the second stage, the present stage, mankind is slowly but surely becoming reshaped through the grace of God and his or her own free will into “children of God.” Irenaeus explains that in the first stage man is made in the image of God and in the second stage being made into the likeness of God, using Genesis 1.26 as the basis for this understanding.
The Irenaean understanding of creation is not one where God’s purpose was to create some pre-Fall utopian society, where mankind would experience an abundance of pleasure and knowledge. Rather the world is a place of transformation, where man struggles with the tasks of the mundane, of ordinary existence, of both pleasure and pain, in order that he or she may become “a child of God.”
There is also Karl Barth’s theological expounding, channeling his inner Pelagius, of the “sin of the origin,” in Christ and Adam, wherein he claims that one must see Christ, not Adam, as the de jure head of all humanity. That is, Adam, and all his descendants, must be viewed through the lens of Christ and the Cross; man must not be contemplated in terms of Adam and his sin, rather man must be explicated in terms of the Logos himself in the man Jesus. Of course, one can look back, in the throes of sentimentality, to the Garden, but there is nothing in Adam of any real theological import. He was merely the first sinner, a first among equals. Adam does not confer anything upon us, not even sin. We do not sin because we are followers of Adam or because we have been “tainted” by him, but because we freely choose to sin. Adam’s actions do not condemn mankind, our own actions condemn us, Barth thinks, for we are all sinners, and sin is implied in our very existence.
For me, I think we are all of us part of Adam’s rebellion against God, and as such we suffer the consequences of Adam’s sin, but we do not bear the guilt of that sin, for Adam’s sin is his own. We don’t inherit Adam’s guilt but his rebellion. And rebellion need not, necessarily, manifest itself in the body of one man or one woman. Indeed rebellion is usually a collective endeavor. So I see no dire moral or spiritual need to interpret the names “Adam” and “Eve” literally in order that the consequences of rebellion—sin and death—be passed on to the rest of humanity.
However, for some Roman Catholics, the Magisterium has spoken on the matter of polygenism and original sin, and any attempt at reconciling the two is an exercise in futility, I have been told. Well, for those faithful Catholics, I offer, as I don’t see how I could explain it any better, the inimitable Edward Feser’s perspective:
“…that I there rehearsed a proposal developed by Mike Flynn and Kenneth Kemp to the effect that we need to distinguish the notion of a creature which is human in a strict metaphysical sense from that of a creature which is “human” merely in a looser, purely physiological sense. The latter sort of creature would be more or less just like us in its bodily attributes but would lack our intellectual powers, which are incorporeal. In short, it would lack a human soul. Hence, though genetically it would appear human, it would not be a rational animal and thus not be human in the strict metaphysical sense. Now, this physiologically “human” but non-rational sort of creature is essentially what Pius XII, John Paul II, and the philosophers and theologians quoted above have in mind when they speak of a scenario in which the human body arises via evolutionary processes…Call this pair “Adam” and “Eve.” Adam and Eve have descendents, and God infuses into each of them rational souls of their own, so that they too are human in the strict metaphysical sense. Suppose that some of these descendents interbreed with creatures of the non-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” sort. The offspring that result would also have rational souls since they have Adam and Eve as ancestors (even if they also have non-rational creatures as ancestors). This interbreeding carries on for some time, but eventually the population of non-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” creatures dies out, leaving only those creatures who are human in the strict metaphysical sense.”
“On this scenario, the modern human population has the genes it does because it is descended from this group of several thousand individuals, initially only two of whom had rational or human souls. But only those later individuals who had this pair among their ancestors (even if they also had as ancestors members of the original group which did not have human souls) have descendents living today. In that sense, every modern human is both descended from an original population of several thousand and from an original pair. There is no contradiction, because the claim that modern humans are descended from an original pair does not entail that they received all their genes from that pair alone.”
“Of course, this is speculative. No one is claiming to know that this is actually what happened, or that Catholic teaching requires this specific scenario. The point is just that it shows, in a way consistent with what Catholic orthodoxy and Thomistic philosophy allow vis-à-vis evolution, that the genetic evidence is not in fact in conflict with the doctrine of original sin.”
The point here, though, is not to argue for one theological rendition over another, but simply to illustrate that there are numerous ways of cashing out original sin without reference to a traditionally historical Adam and Eve. And these interpretations of the “sin of the origin” are perfectly consonant with classical Christianity, properly understood.
Scientific Fables and Legends
However, with all that said, I do tend to agree with Mr. Ferrara that when “science” begins to speculate about the whole of experience, although these speculations may be initiated in a science, it is no longer science as such. It becomes something of a fable in its own right, when some scientific concept or template or theory that has been defined, tested, improved, and so forth, within a very specific context, is taken out of that context, expanded, and then utilized to explain questions and aspects of reality far beyond the scope of its original context, it becomes more fable than science. In this sense, Dawkinsian ND is a fable, a naturalistic fable of sorts, because it takes the TOE out of its context and uses it to articulate a vision about all of metaphysical reality.
Of course, this is not to say that biological theory cannot contribute something to the understanding of human nature and, perhaps, even provide valuable theological insights. But in reductionist, speculative, etc ND forms it functions essentially as legend, and an illogical legend at that—when it speaks on the mysteries of God, existence, consciousness, intentionality, higher causality, rationality of the world, and so forth—only a deep confusion could cause one to mistake these things as admitting of a material or natural solution.
Bad “God”: An Atrophied Metaphysics
Occasionally, when I am thinking about these peculiar debates over evolution amongst my fellow Christians, my mind shifts to metaphysics. Indeed I think, like so many before me, from Abbot to Teilhard, that in evolutionary thought there exists a most magnificent theory of the imaginative possibilities of life, as Dickinson opined, one deserving of a God from “whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things,” as Augustine put it, a God both beyond being and being itself.
For many Christian theologians, the TOE represents a reverie of nature’s enigma that might well rescue the present-age from the idiotic Cartesian analogies and doltish anthropomorphisms that have been passed-down from a historical period where mechanistic philosophies had some genuine relevance to the physics and metaphysics of the day.
However, as Hart argues, we remain trapped in the mechanistic metaphysics of a bygone age, where evolution has been aligned with a mechanistic understanding of nature, and natural selection has simply assumed the position previously played by “God”. Nature for most of us is simply an enormous gadget either created by an “Intelligent Designer” or exists, miraculously, as a brute fact. Traditional theological problems about being, higher causality, consciousness, rational structure of the world, and so forth have now been replaced by pseudo-theological problems of a distinctly mechanical nature about physical origins, biological complexity, and so on.
Indeed I find it difficult to contain my dismay when someone like Mr. Ferrara claims one can find evidence of God by identifying individual examples of seeming causal breakdown in the processes and mechanisms of the natural world—e.g., animal body plans or DNA or eukaryotic cells or what have you—which necessitates some occult “invisible hand” directing the show, so to speak.
My disquiet is the result of how God is treated here. As if he is just some notable physical force or law of nature or physical constant found somewhere out there in nature, among all the other forces and laws and constants: not that in whom everything lives and moves and has its being, not the only true and eternal essence, the only true reality, but a law among other laws, a thing among other things; a god among all other gods, encompassed within some physical system. If this is true, then right reason enjoins that one look for evidence of the Divine in nature’s own physical structure. But that approach for discovering God is almost like looking for evidence of the mathematician in the formal symbols on a chalkboard—refusing to countenance that you will not find the mathematician there as some symbol or formula or theorem, not even where there are eraser marks, but that the mathematician is still there, on the chalkboard, in every symbol and equation and is, in fact, the source of the work’s existence—God, as Plotinus noted, “cannot be any existing thing, but is prior to all existents.”
To be sure, as Hart points out, if there is some demiurge “out there,” assembling nucleotides and eukaryotic cells and animal body plans and what have you, then that entity, is a contingent being, a part of the physical order, another part among parts, but not the summum bonum, not the apex of being, not the one who is “wholly everywhere…nothing contain the whole of thee,” as Augustine declared, and, consequently, not God, and that is Mr. Ferrara’s heresy—reducing God to a being among beings.
Of course, if such a demiurge does not exist, then who cares? The existence or non-existence of some demiurge “out there” has nothing meaningful to say about the mysteries of being and truth. The question of being is not a question for biology or physics. In fact, it is not even a question those disciplines can meaningfully ask.
However, the question about the origin and evolution of life is relevant to scientific research and theorizing in disciplines ranging from geology and botany to biogeography and genetics. It is an empirical question, not a theological one. And any attempt to disprove evolution is going to have to puzzle out the multitude of fossils, the genetic comparisons between species, the physiological comparisons between species, biogeography, embryology, vestigial structures, DNA sequencing, the predictions about where fossils will be found, the predictions when common ancestors will appear in the fossil record, the predictions about what they will look like, and many other areas of inquiry. As well as formulate a rival theory that explains and predicts the data better than the TOE, and no comparable theory, in this regard, has been forthcoming.
Again, the question of whether animal man was generated by a mechanical process in a day or by a process of growth continuing through the millennia; or whether, in that process or that day, one Adam or two Adams or no Adams were produced, is quite irrelevant to the one who believes God breathes divine life into man, for one who believes that in God we live, move, and have our being, for that person every day is a creative day. And he or she can say with the same confidence of Teilhard de Chardin that “even in the view of a mere biologist, the human epic resembles nothing so much as a way of the Cross.”
I say you are good brother Neo. You both sound just alike. A million words just to say nothing.
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Nope, Bosco, he ain’t me. He’s a whole lot smarter than I am! Some things, and this decidedly is one of them, takes a fair number of words to make comprehensible, and he’s managed to do it, for me, anyway. Besides Bosco, it should make sense to you, you’re the scientist, I’m not.
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Believe me. ive heard this from day one in school.It sounds good, but when one crunches the numbers it falls apart.
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How so? So refute it for us, cause it makes sense to me.
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=Big bad Neo the bible thumping hero. You fall for evolution. The chances for a 150 Dalton protein forming by accident( and being biologically active) are something like 10 to the 50th power. There aren’t that many atoms in the universe.
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How many times have you heard me say everything can’t come from nothing randomly? I still do, and that wasn’t what I read in this post either, of course you don’t read the posts so, you’d be unlikely to know what he said.
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NEO: “How many times have you heard me say everything can’t come from nothing randomly?”
When you say that you are completely negating the Creative actions of God. You’re saying He cannot make something out of nothing! Hello? Please look in the mirror when you say that. God bless. Ginnyfree
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No, Ginny. I’m saying he set it all in motion, it is not a random series.
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Hello NEO. Nice bail out but it doesn’t work. It’s like giving God some credit for His own creative actions. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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The Deists of the Enlightenment tried doing the same thing and they failed too. To them God was a great clock maker who set everything in motion and then simply sits back and let’s it unwind. Yeah. Not the God I know.
Here’s some light for your truth: Deism By Catherine Beyer
Deism is not a specific religion but rather a particular perspective on the nature of God. Deists believe that a creator god does exist, but that after the motions of the universe were set in place he retreated, having no further interaction with the created universe or the beings within it. As such, there are a variety of common religious beliefs that deists do not accept.
No Need for Worship:
Because the deist god is entirely removed from involvement, he has neither need nor want of worship.
The rest of the article is here: http://altreligion.about.com/od/alternativereligionsaz/p/Deism.htm
But please note NEO, that it is an ALTERNATIVE religion and not Christianity. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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The question of God is a question about existence, not, however, a question about physical probability but logical possibility. God is not a force or cause within nature, and he is most definitely not some kind of uber-natural explanation.
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Bosco, show me how you come up with this number?
And what does that matter really. I believe in the God in whom all things necessarily subsist, do you?
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I spoke too soon. Its something like 10 the the 250th power.
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Yeah Bosco! Go Team! Hurrah! We’ve found your forte’ you know science stuff. Oh goodie. I can’t wait. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Bosco, you don’t get it, my friend. Sure, probability is a powerful thing, but it is terribly difficult to measure in biology’s complex systems of interdependence, or over vast intervals of time as different geological epochs.
However, I agree that the number of highly improbable conditions that hold our universe together and that brought about life are deeply compelling arugments in favor of a transcendent creator. But such arguments are still probabilistic.
And the question of God is a question about existence as such. That is, it is not a question of physical probability but of logical possibility.
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Yet there still remains an replication of the science in the lab. Show scientific proof of the science of which you speak. You can’t cause there really isn’t any. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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A replication of billions of years in the lab? That’s not possible. But there is a lot of experimental work done–molecular biology, cellular biology, developmental biology, genetics, and so.
But evolutionary biology is a historical science in large measure.
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Ya know what? Farmers have have known for a lot longer than scientists the limits of breeding and natural selection. Yet, when they finish in the fields at night, they quietly pray to the God who created it all and waters His creation while they sleep. You can’t do that. You’ve proved Him wrong. So what is to become of you? I’ll tell you what will happen. You’re science will turn you further and further away from God until you begin to hate those of us who have faith. You will become bitter and angry and defensive. You will study harder and harder and loose more and more and you will revel in your darkness and call it light. But in your heart you will hate us because we fail to see the darkness you see as light. Then you will die and face whatever it is you’ve created for yourself and it won’t be God in His Heaven. I’ve met a few like you and they have much hatred for Christians in their simple trusting faith. That’s enough from me. I sincerely hope you turn away from the darkness you seek and turn to Him who created it all. He loves you and died for you, so you could come to know the truth and the truth could set you free from all your science. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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NEO no one can say Genesis is a myth and claim Christianity for themselves. So how much sense does it really make? God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. One of the Divine attributes of God is utter Simplicity. All that wrangling is anything but simple. Does that not send up some red flag warnings? Alarm bells should be ringing in your head on that note alone.
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The reason it doesn’t, Ginny, is that my background and expertise tells me that the simplest things, done millions of times get complex. An example, in essence the ‘puters we write on are no more complex that the light switch that turns on your kitchen light. but there are millions of them operating millions of times a second, and so it does all that these machines do for us now.
Part of why I value this series is that I’m mostly familiar with St. Augustine’s reasoning, and it always left me somewhat unsatisfied. Myth? Maybe, maybe not, depends on definitions amongst other things, but I’ve never been able to believe it literally, sure God could do it, he can do anything, but I fail to see any rational reason for him to ‘fake’ the fossil, and geologic records contained on Earth.
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Divine simplicity is not about simplicity, popularly conceived, like lower level mechanical complexity. It is about the total absence of any limitations that might inhibit the power of actuality that is God. It is not physical, but metaphysical.
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Hello NML. My understanding of the Divine Simplicity of God is NOT “popularly conceived.” That’s for sharing. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well, if you think that the natural creative process being more complex violates divine simplicity, then I think your understanding of divine simplicity is mistaken.
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No NML, you misunderstand me and why I picked simplicity to compare your evolutionary compromises to faith with.
Faith is pure and simple, a reflection of the One in whom we place our faith. God is absolute simplicity. That is a De Fide statement, not a commonality as you wish or suppose, but common folks can understand it easily. But since you are ignorant of it, it must be worthless, right?
God is absolute simplicity. It is a fundamental contradiction of all of these theories of evolution. To understand God, one doesn’t need to be able to discern to what power the equation needs to be raised to to make all of the science work. Your science is too complicated. If it were of God, it would be easy to grasp. If it contained a message about the meaning of God or something the Creator wished to convey about Himself to His creatures, it would be simply evident. As it is, it only conveys a message from you, NML, and that message flies in the face what we as Christians know about God and His Creation.
You insult us all by calling what we believe about Genesis, only one book of our Holy Scriptures, a myth. Then you try to make up for that rude slap, by sugar coating the type of myth you think it is. But myths aren’t Truth and the Truth is not a myth. To say Genesis is a myth is to call our God a liar. That is what you cannot undo by your many intellectual sounding words. I think God is too simple for some like you. His simplicity dumbfounds the complexities of science, yet He truly is their author and inspiration. All wisdom is found in God. There is no wisdom in your science. Please keep in mind that the theory of evolution is only a theory and not a fact. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Thank you sister ginny. I deal with raw science. its not magic.Humans and plants and bacteria always give the same markers. We can type them by these markers. if they change, we cant type them. But we haven’t seen them change. We rely on them not changing. Chickens stay chickens. Potatoes stay potatoes, trout stay trout. Us humans rely on our existence on them not changing. yes, evo people point to resistance in bacteria as evolution. Silly sons of bitches…..its phage mediated immunity…not evolution.
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Show you how I come up with this number. I thought you would know this number, what with all your high falutin big words. Class is in…sit down and turn off your cell phones.
take 2 marbles. Roll them on the ground. Will they meet? heck, its less thsan 50/50. lets take 4 carbon atoms in the primordial soup. Will they meet? the chsance is 1/4. Now, they don’t just join because they are close. They need activation. A lightening bolt has to hit them, then maybe they join. Now, a sugar molecule is C6H12O6. Whats the chance of that forming by accident, and not just that, but billions of them forming in the space of the head of a needle? Somebody stop me. Now, wee need pyrimidine’s and purines to form in this same space, by accident. all identical. The sugars need to line up and the purines need to line up and so forth. the numbers say that this could happen by random chance, by, let me see. Something on the order of, 10 to the 1,000,000, 000th power. Anything over 10 to the 50th power is considerd impossible.
Evolution is a religion, and id appreciate it if you kept your religion to yourself
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But that is all bad guesswork and confused claims. It is just truncated calculations. I still don’t see how you get that number. But of course none of this has much to do with God in the first place.
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Now Bosco, if Chalcedon were only here to see you earn your title Bosco the Great: “Evolution is a religion, and id appreciate it if you kept your religion to yourself” Bosco the Great! I think I’ll quote you on that. You’re 110% correctimundo. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, before you start quoting Bosco you might want to pause and reflect.
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But he’s right NML. Your religion is evolutionary theory. You’ve renounced your Creator and call His works mythology along with His promise of a Redeemer which was contained in that “myth” you so offhandedly throw away to be a smartie pants. You’re also being condescending and rude. Bosco is right as are a few others here. You just don’t like it and are so convinced your theological speculations are convincing, after all they convinced you, you are upset that we are awed by your superior knowledge and understanding. Ummmmmm………need I say more? I picked simplicity for a reason. You still don’t get it. You are a pitiable man. Oh well. We tried. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, I am sorry that I have upset. That was not my intention. I have tried to be as civil as I can be.
However, you have insulted me in every possible way and can have nothing further to say to me.
Also, when Bosco, a man who spreads heresy and deceit and utter gibberish, is your bulldog, I think a moment’s pause is in order.
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One thing I can say in defence of good brother No man is…..that hes not a catholic. there is hope for him.
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Good brother Neo echos a theme in here, that I, Bosco the Great, don’t read the post, but yet I comment on them,. I speed read. my grandma made me take a Evelyn Woods speed readin course. Then she put me in a memory course. Im in the top 2% of all chess platers in the world, not because im stupid or cant read. UIll pit my logic against anyone in here, and ill bet you lose.
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So, you are saying you don’t read the posts?
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None of this has anything to do with god. he sits back and laughs. he gave us science so we can look over creation. he didn’t give it to us so we can disprove him. Just look at our enzyme systems. they smack of design. Even secular text books on physiology use the word design
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Bosco, do you know what an enzyme is? Just curious.
How, exactly, did God give us science? Did he give us automobiles and football too?
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Do I know what an enzyme is? Are you for real? Im going to pretend you didn’t ask me that.
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No Bosco! Knock his socks off!
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The bottom line is…..even competent scientists believe DNA formed by accident. That’s because they refuse to believe in a living god.They have no choice.
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There are so many different life forms, that in order for them to evolve, one a day would have to evolve. Evo people don’t ever mention that one. the bible is 100% on its predictions. There is no reason to believe its false.There is 100% reason to believe every word is true. Don’t be fooled by Satans religions that water down the word of God. the bible is true.
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Talking nonsense again dear Bosco. That arithmetic doesn’t add up, I’m afraid.
.
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Arithmetic does not apply here as probability. Today’s evolutionists don’t see it the way Darwin did, ie chance mutation. The current thinking is that genes change through adaptation which is a process not a chance mutation so all the numbers are meaningless because you are applying them to old Darwinist explanation no longer held by scientists.
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Thanks for sharing NML. However, I have a problem with the calling of the Genesis accounts of Creation a myth. If you dismiss it as myth because science proves it so, you loose. How is that? Well, contained in the accounts of the fall of man is also what is known as the Protoevangelium, the promise of the Redeemer of mankind, Jesus Christ. If it is simply a myth, then you’ve dismissed none otter than jesus Christ. How does all that science feel now? If Genesis is mythology then so is your Redeemer. No Christian can accept that. Science fails. Unless you really want to leave Christ behind and live as such. To me it is indicative of the broad highway that leads to destruction we get warned about in Scripture. Heed that warning before it is too late. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Thank you for commenting, Ginny.
First, by myth I don’t mean something that is false. I mean an organizing story that allows a culture, religion, and so forth, to explain itself to itself.
Second, that is a non sequitur. Indeed the whole post is dedicated to showing why one cannot make that sort of inference.
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No it’s not NML. Nice try. But your flip is a flop. You are saying Genesis is a myth but you’re trying to sugar coat it so it goes down a little smoother. You’re calling the Divine Author a liar. That’s really bad news. Literally. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yes, I am saying the creation narrative is a myth. That much is right. But that’s about it.
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I used to think it was a myth, until I met god himself.
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Are you sure you met God, Bosco?
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Okie dokie then NML. You truly do live in a No Man’s Land then because you’ve renounced your own Creator is so doing. That is the truth revealed about evolutionary theories and their outcomes once accepted that we were warned about by the prophetic voice of the Church raised in Humani generis as well as in other documents. I suggest you read it. http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
I don’t think you’re man enough though. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Good sister ginny, science points in the evo direction. Many big thinkers believe it. that’s because it makes some sense. But when one looks at the numbers, it cant work. Science doesn’t fail. God created science. Its that some humans refuse to believe it was all created in a few days.
Lets take a look.
Apparent history. An old dry bone seems old. one would say….this animal died long ago. Probably true. God doesn’t work that way. Remember the loaves and fishes? The people who ate them were sure they were caught and cooked on some heat source and seasoned and the bread was wheat and was ground and baked in an oven. But they weren’t. god gave us a earth with an apparent history. call it a cruel joke if you will.
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Ginny, a very broad highway indeed. Be proud, you defended Our Lord Jesus Christ very well today. As you always say, God bless.
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If Catholics truly believe that the Church cannot err in matters of faith and morals your explanations and musings cannot hold sway with the articles of faith. Among them are these as you already know:
Our first parents, before the fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace.
In addition to sanctifying grace, our first parents were endowed with the preternatural gift of bodily immortality.
Our first parents in Paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment.
Through sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God.
Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the devil.
Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation but by descent.
Original sin is transmitted by natural generation.
In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity.
Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God.
Beyond these a fuller explanation of the preternatural gifts of our original parents might be handy to Catholics and to other Christians if they regard both the Biblical and Early Father’s accounts as well:
Part Three: “Adam Possessed the Gift of Bodily Immortality”
Ecclesiastical Documents
Besides the Councils of XVI Carthage (DB 101) and orange (DB 174), the Council of Trent defined that “If anyone does not profess that the first man Adam… when he disobeyed the command of God in the Garden of Paradise…incurred the death with which God had previously threatened him…let him be anathema” (DB 788).
Later on, when Baianism was condemned by the Church, among the rejected propositions was, the claim that “The immortality of the first man was not a gift of grace, but his natural condition” (DB 1078). This corresponds to another condemned proposition of Baius, to the effect that “The integrity found in first creation was not a gratuitous elevation of human nature, but its natural condition” (DB 1026).
Sacred Scripture
The immortality of our first parents is seen from the sanction which God imposed on them in forbidding them to eat of the tree of knowledge, and His application of this sanction (Genesis 2:16-17, 3:3, 19, 22-24).
The Lord foretold that man would die in whatsoever day he ate of the forbidden fruit. This threat did not literally mean death on the same day as the sin, since the Old Testament often refers to time in broader terms, e.g., III Kings 2:42. Rather it meant that the moment man disobeyed the precept, he would become subject to mortality. Consequently in Genesis and elsewhere (Wisdom 2:24, Ecclesiasticus 25:33) the sacred authors wished to teach that physical death was not man’s original lot, but came into the world because of sin. In other words, except for sin, man would have been immortal in body.
In the New Testament, St. John calls the devil “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44). And according to St. Paul, death entered the world as a result of Adam’s fall (Romans 5:12, I Corinthians 15:21-22). The death in question is not merely spiritual death, since it is contrasted with bodily resurrection, which came to us through Christ. Logically, therefore, if Adam had not sinned by following the suggestion of the devil, he would have preserved himself in bodily immortality.
Patristic Evidence
The Fathers unanimously taught as a matter of faith that man in his primeval condition was gifted with immortality of body and soul. Thus Theophilus of Antioch explained that God made man neither mortal nor immortal, but capable of either, depending on whether Adam would sin or not (RJ 184). Tatian describes the Word of God “making man a sharer in His own divine immortality” (RJ 156). According to St. Cyprian, with the advent of the first sin there disappeared both man’s integrity of body and immortality, which were a special grace of God (RJ 566). St. Athanasius taught that men who are by nature mortal would have been immortal, had they not sinned, thus rising superior to the powers of nature by the power of the Word of God (RJ 750). St. Ambrose says that God did not make death, but imposed it upon man as a penalty for sin, so that now he must return to the earth from which he came (RJ 1325). And St. Augustine held that man was mortal because he was able to die, immortal because he was able not to die, so that he was mortal conditione naturae and immortal beneficio Dei (RJ 1699).
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm
As I said, it will be difficult if not impossible to bring compatibility to both. You have tried mightily and sadly, in my view, even evoked Teilhard de Chardin to my dismay. I’m afraid I find his work rather New Age for my liking . . . though I realize in our present crisis of progressivism and laxity that he is gaining supporters even in the hierarchy.
Good articles though and there is not enough space to comment on each and every assertion and point made but perhaps it is just as well since the Catholic cannot adhere to the explanations above to bridge the gap between faith and scientific theory anyway. 🙂 P.S. Christopher Ferrara is not one to convict of believing in a God among other gods. He is purely Catholic and be assured He believes in the Pre-existent One God and the Author of all Being. 🙂
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Good brother No Man, please forgive my catholic brother Servus. He means well. But he subscribes to a wacked out religion. Just grin and bare him.
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Yippie SF! Go Team. Good stuff. Keep it coming. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ratzinger has been influenced greatly by Teilhard.
Christopher Ferrara seems a decent fellow and I am not challenging his piety.
As for the more substantive points, I’ll have to get back to you, because I’m losing the thread. But Edward Feser touches on a lot of that in the link I posted.
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Ratzinger condemned his writings under JPII and made overtures to him when speaking to a group of Teilhard supporters as Pope. That does not mean that he is necessarily a believer in the noosphere ideas and other implications that he has written about.
I shall have a look at the link posted. Thanks.
As to simplicity: something should be said for it I think. In mathematics and the other sciences it seems that the most elegant theorems and equations are the ones that are the simplest and they usually turn out to be right . . . like the theory of relativity. Perhaps it does not need be so but in general if the theory is too complicated there is a greater chance of error. I like the simplicity of Adam and Eve and its symmetry to Christ’s Redemption. No need for redemption, no need for a Christ or the Cross. I don’t care much about the time tables involved except that with Adam and Eve. For it is in their fall that we have gained Jesus Christ as a Savior. We now have a face to put on God . . . and a relationship in blood and nature. Yes it is a miracle: but it seems that a 1 off miracle is much easier to explain than a series of miracles or a world with only a cosmic miracle of existence. Of all of God’s creations in the cosmos it is only man that warranted a Divine Savior who stooped to become man and to raised by adoption to sonship.
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Well, the best theory we have going–quantum mechanics–is terribly complicated, if not straightforwardly paradoxical. 🙂
But I certainly see where you are coming from. I just think there are ways of reconciling the two, although I make no claims to infallibility on this matter.
Also, thanks for your thoughtful replies, SF. I greatly appreciate your engaging with the actual post.
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As I am happy for your engagement as well NML. Like I told you, I am only a muser of sorts. What amuses me though is the hubris of mankind to remove the miraculous from all of creation. We create words for ideas that we have for everything and yet there is not truly one substantive bit of understanding for any of it though we say we understand because by their behavior and by analysis we can predict much and create much: the medicines and other inventions are marvelous for their ingenuity. Yet from the tiniest bits of atoms to the talk of energy and repellent and attractive forces have no substantial reality to our minds. They remain as mysterious as does God. We know things by our senses and by their reactions and their accidents. But to actually know something is beyond our pay grade. To me it sings the simplicity of the fingerprints of God that holds all in existence and I get the feeling that this great unknowing is part of what drives man to seek God in all ages and all cultures. We are starting to believe too much in our manipulation and abilities to form that which is formed by God into new things . . . and have lost our sense of mystery and of the Divine. This is what I feel is happening to the concept of original sin and the need for a Divine Savior. A mystery but one worth believing.
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There’s not much I disagree with there.
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Your knowledge impresses me in the sciences and I am glad that you did this series NML. If you don’t mind me asking, are you a male of female as I picked up on a reference to ‘herself’ in the post and yet everyone here is assuming that you are a male? I just do now want to call you a man if you are a woman.
I have a very smart son who is a PharmD and sadly science, I believe, is the most obvious reason for having him stray from the faith. It is refreshing to see that you still hold to your faith though it seems to take some doing judging by some of the many scenarios you have alluded to. God bless you for that. 🙂 Maybe you can teach my son to do that as well; I’d be most grateful. 🙂
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Sf I am sorry to hear about your son’s scepticism as a result of scientific matters.
I’m not a scientist or a theologian but my reading indicates that the conflict between science and theology is one over poor conceptions of one or the other and entirely unnecessary. I recommend a book that I think would be helpful which he might read or perhaps for yourself first to do so. I know the authors personally one has a Phd on the interaction between science and religion and is a senior lecturer in a science faculty. The book goes a long way to disarming the notion of conflict between religion and science drawing information in one section throughout church history to illustrate the point.
Reason Science and Faith by Paul Marston and Roger Forster
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Thank you for the suggestion Rob. I had read Stanley Jaki and Thomas Dubay who both wrote books and articles for scientific journals but apparently my son doesn’t even want to engage on that level of conversation much less read a book on such. It seems he is pretty convinced in his thinking. It will take a conversion of heart Rob and prayers from you and your many friends for him and my daughter would be most welcome.
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Will add them to the prayer list.
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If you don’t mind include my daughter as well. Fallen away but for different reasons: hers has more to do with this secular world we live in.
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I will pray for them both as well, SF.
Let me know what you find out about a conversation.
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Will do, NML. I’m hoping his sister or mom knows his Facebook page . . . I don’t Facebook. 🙂
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I don’t Facebook either, I am sorry to say. But I am willing to create an account.
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Very kink of you. We’ll see if we can get a conversation going somehow. I thank you for your kindness.
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Hopefully we can. You are very welcome. C has my email, as I am sure the blog does as well, if you want to contact me privately.
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If I can get his address on Facebook I will do that. Thanks again.
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Thank you very much. And I am a man.
I would be more than happy to start a correspondence with your son, if he wants to do it.
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I do wonder if it would be possible. I think he has a Facebook page so maybe that would be a good way to approach him. I’ll see if I can find his Facebook info. I think he would be perturbed if he though I sent you there so a bit of discretion might start a conversation that would be interesting. Thank you for the offer. 🙂
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I am happy to do whatever you think is best.
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I’ll look into it and let you know. Thanks. A contemporary mind in his league might help open up his thinking a bit.
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Aye,No Man, if you don’t know nuthin about biochem, how much can you know about quantum theory? have you dug into the math of quantum? Oh, but you ask have I, Bosco the Great dug into the math…..the answer is yes… I have dug into the math, at some small level thru Stanford University.
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Actually, Bosco, I have written papers on quantum mechanics.
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Yeah really? Where are they published? Perhaps you could post a PDF link.
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All papers written are not papers published, I’m afraid.
But they were written as papers for classes, not for the literature. My point was that I am well-acquainted with the field.
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I don’t believe it. I don’t believe you have a working knowledge of mechanics. I can tell if someone does.
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Hello NML. On Teilhard de Chardin: “The above-mentioned works abound in such ambiguities and indeed even serious errors, as to offend Catholic doctrine… For this reason, the most eminent and most revered Fathers of the Holy Office exhort all Ordinaries as well as the superiors of Religious institutes, rectors of seminaries and presidents of universities, effectively to protect the minds, particularly of the youth, against the dangers presented by the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and of his followers”. 1962 Monitum.
Over the years there has been found in his works things a that are okay, but on the whole, that rehabilitative process hasn’t ended and so common sense says, if you don’t want to get burned, don’t play with fire.
Christopher Ferrara is also out of kilter as a Traditionalist. How far is too far? Mark my words, it won’t be much longer before he finds out he’s crossed that line too. Once again, if you don’t want to get hit by the train, stay off the train tracks.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Here is a link to an article that will help in understanding something about God’s Simplicity. http://faculty.fordham.edu/klima/SMLM/PSMLM7/PSMLM7.pdf It is found in the article by Paul Thom. Good luck cause these guys n gals really know their stuff. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Good sister ginny. please don’t tell me this site is where you get your inspiration.
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Bosco, don’t go there.
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Go read the article. I think that little group of thinkers is as bright as it gets these days. They are the “Society for Medieval Logic and Metaphysics” and they pretty cool if you ask me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I skimmed thru it. don’t take me lightly. All in here do. Don’t you make the same mistake. I don’t slight you for your wacked out believes, because I used to want to fly on the back of a dragonfly, like Hendrix did.
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Don’t get mad at me Bosco. I think you’re swell. A stray, but basically okay. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Sister ginny, ive always been in love with you. Ive never hated you. I think you are wonderful.
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Why am I moderated? This weak ass site need all the help it can get.
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Ive never been mad at you good sister ginny. I am in love with you.
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I haven’t yet had time to read the whole thing, and won’t until tonight, but it looks very interesting. Before I go further, however, could you define “polygenism”? I looked it up online and it seemed to be the belief of Karl Vogt in 1864 that different human races evolved from different species of apes. It was a tool used to dehumanize non-white people. That’s not what I’ve heard from the evolutionary biologists I’ve listened to, all of whom agree that humans are now one species regardless of skin color, because of (demonstrated) ability to interbreed. While evolution’s advocates speak of several defunct species of hominids, some of them overlapping (e.g. sapiens, Heidelbergensis, and Neandertalensis), I don’t see any relationship between that idea and Vogt’s repugnant justification of racism. Can you clarify, then, how you are using “polygenism” in this post?
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Polygenism is a theory about multiple origins. But in this case it just means multiple Homo sapien pairs.
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Or multiple hominid–male and female–pairs, if we stretch it back millions of years.
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Explain why there are two kinds. Animal and man. There is only one human, but billions of animal. Apes kinda look like humans, but they are animals. Why aren’t there some kinda human like animals? Why only one? Evo says time made humans. Ok. Ants were here befor us. Why aren’t they humans. Why aren’t everything humans…weve all had the same time to evolve.
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First, Bosco, humans are animals.
Second, check the hominid fossil record, Bosco.
Third, asking why ants are not human is about like asking why a tree isn’t a car. You are talking nonsense, dear Bosco.
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ya know, I’d much rather read my Bible for the Truth than study a big pile of rocks for a fossil record. One leads to Salvation and Heaven, the other may give me a degree, but I’ll loose my salvation trying to justify lies for academia. Not much of a choice. I think I’ll read my Bible. You can study all the fossils you want to. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, do you really have a such a limited picture of God that it is conceivable that the sciences could some day make him obsolete? God is not a rival explanation to the explanations the sciences seek.
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Hello NML. “First, Bosco, humans are animals.” Ummm……….what kind of animal are you?
I know I’m made in the image and likeness of God, so I’m no animal. I’m beginning to feel sorry for you NML. You really don’t have a faith that works. God bless you. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, I am a human animal as are you. We are part of the animal kingdom after all. Or will you deny that taxonomic classification as well?
At the end of this, I might can get you to say that you don’t believe in oxygen molecules either.
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Ya know what NML. You just don’t get it. I am not an animal and I don’t care what your science says. I am a child of God, a daughter of Mary. I was made in the image and likeness of God. My human dignity will be glorified it Heaven when I am resurrected. Animals do not share that with us. Your science cannot take my human dignity away. Your science was loved by the Communists because it did exactly that – dehumanized humans so they could enslave them and kill them by the millions and they did. That is a historical fact. You cannot change it. You don’t believe what I do. That is clear even though you claim to have reconciled your specific brand of evolutionary theory with Christianity, you call my Bible a collection of myths. So, you can call humans animals all the day long, but saying it is so doesn’t make it so. God loves you. I’ve said enough. Ginnyfree.
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Theres a tree trunk that stands up in whats considerd millions of yrs of sediment layers. The layers are evidence of a flood. If one has a smattering of education, one will know that the heavier particles settle first, then the next and so on. That accounts for the payers. then, archeologists say the animals found in them are older. Sounds good but its not the case. Lets take a look.;
Crude oil
Drillers call some crude sweet or fresh. How fresh can something 100 million yrs old can be? Nothing stays liquid for 100million yrs.
here one thing you mindless sheep don’t know…….. that oil wells fill back up after around 5 to 8 yrs. Once they suck out the oil, it fills back up. hydrocarbons under pressure make oil….not dead animals and plants. Google it. Oil wells refill.
have you zombies ever wonderd where fresh uranium comes from? It was here 4 billion yrs ago when the earth formed. Whats so fresh about it. You zombies believe the newspapers and Leave It to Beaver, but you don’t believe the word of God.
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Leave geological theory to the geologists, Bosco.
You are talking nonsense again.
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Not so NML. He’s right. That’s why we call him Bosco the Great! You’f be smart to pay attention. The numbers they assign to the scientific theory of everything are bull stinky poo. The great Bosco has spoken. I agree with him on this. Next.
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I was versed in mineralogy in collide in inorgan chem. Not that im a geologist, but I have a idea about minerals. befor the earth was formed, according to evo, the atoms were floating areound for a billion yrs befor they came together to form the earth. The radio active elements should be dead, not fresh.
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Its good that you agree with me. Shows that you have some smarts. Ill bet that you are good looking also,
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“The Fathers unanimously taught as a matter of faith that man in his primeval condition was gifted with immortality of body and soul. Thus Theophilus of Antioch explained that God made man neither mortal nor immortal, but capable of either, depending on whether Adam would sin or not (RJ 184). Tatian describes the Word of God “making man a sharer in His own divine immortality” (RJ 156). According to St. Cyprian, with the advent of the first sin there disappeared both man’s integrity of body and immortality, which were a special grace of God (RJ 566). St. Athanasius taught that men who are by nature mortal would have been immortal, had they not sinned, thus rising superior to the powers of nature by the power of the Word of God (RJ 750). St. Ambrose says that God did not make death, but imposed it upon man as a penalty for sin, so that now he must return to the earth from which he came (RJ 1325). And St. Augustine held that man was mortal because he was able to die, immortal because he was able not to die, so that he was mortal conditione naturae and immortal beneficio Dei (RJ 1699).”
Several of the assertions (posted by Servus) above are not compatible with one another either man was created immortal as the first statement asserts or he was not:
“Theophilus of Antioch … God made man neither mortal nor immortal, but capable of either, depending on whether Adam would sin or not”
The view here seems that Adam was created with what we could call a probationary existence and that his immortality or mortality would be determined by his response to God’s command. Adam sinned and mortality became effective. The story continues that he was excluded from paradise so that he could not “eat of the tree of life and live forever”. This indicates that he did not possess immortality prior to the fall but that such had been a possibility. In revelation we see that the redeemed are given to eat of the tree of life (symbolising union with Christ and participation of the divine nature)
St. Athanasius taught that men who are by nature mortal would have been immortal, had they not sinned, thus rising superior to the powers of nature by the power of the Word of God
Athanasius statement seems to state things as I suggest rather that teach that Adam was created immortal. Ambrose statement says nothing about the state in which Adam was created but explains the consequence of his sin.
I consider it is evident that the Genesis account is a myth in the sense that the term is used by NML. Neither are the accounts in Genesis the only Biblical creation myths. Near Eastern creation myths are drawn upon in various scriptures in relation to God ordering the primeval chaos see references to Rahab (Tiamat) and Leviathan in Palms, Isaiah 51:9, Job 9:13, 26:12 and 38:8-11.
The point is that God’s truth in relation to creation is presented by myth in Psalms, Job, Isaiah and reflections of these myths are seen in reference to the primordial waters mentioned in Genesis 1.
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Very nicely done Rob. And………….?
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Nicely done with all the idolatrous catholic father quotes. You need to ask the father to show himself to you
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Hell will be waiting for you to explain how exactly Sacred Scripture is a collection of cleverly devised myths…………………………….have a nice fall.
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St Bosco says….was your hands after using the toilet.
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Bravo! Now if I could just get you to sign the Calvinist yearbook…
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The term myth as used by NML seems to be being taken in a sense totally other than he uses it. I doubt his opponents can be convinced.
However I introduced the alternative Biblical creation accounts as in these instances they are obvious myths. They draw on imagery of Mesopotamian creation myths the most well-known being the Babylonian Enuma Elish However in the Biblical material the Lord takes the place of the high god of these myths (of the nations surrounding Israel) in the battle against cosmic monsters and the raging chaotic sea, to which there are frequent allusions in scripture.
Through these mythical representations the Lord communicates something of the spiritual war, the fall of Satan and his hosts in terms that culture of the time could receive.
Myth clearly has a place in the revelation of spiritual truth and in the instances drawn attention to clearly in relation to Biblical creation accounts.
.
If there is no myth please define Job and Isaiah’s presentation of Rahab.
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“If there is no myth please define Job and Isaiah’s presentation of Rahab.”
As opposed to God’s rendering of Genesis? Rob, if Genesis is myth, tell us what six things (can you come up with that many?) in Sacred Scripture are not myth, and why. Then tell us who believes you. Are you infallible? If you honestly tell us you are not infallible, then this is just your opinion. An opinion without Authority.
“Several of the assertions (posted by Servus) above are not compatible with one another either man was created immortal as the first statement asserts or he was not:”
This is the illustration of Protestant either/or vs. Catholic both/and. Your limits on God are profound. And again by who’s Authority? Oh yeah, yours. “As my Father sent Me, I send you.” Who was Jesus speaking to? The Apostles. All Protestants walked away from the Authority given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ and have chosen to elect your own personal authority. I hope you will walk back to the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ. I will suggest to you a book by a Protestant who did. “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie. Enjoy.
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“If there is no myth please define Job and Isaiah’s presentation of Rahab.
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That much is true, I am a fake.
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The mainstream position of Bible-believing Christians, of all types and throughout church history has been to seek a synthesis between theology based on the Bible and science based on observation. The Bible was not written to answer scientific questions and should not be pressed to do so.
“The Holy Bible can never speak untruth whenever its meaning is understood. But … it is often very abstruse, and may say things which are quite different from what its bare words signify … This being granted, I think that in discussions of physical problems we ought to begin not from the authority of scriptural passages but from sense experiences and necessary demonstrations; for the Holy Bible and the phenomena of nature proceed alike from the divine Word” Augustine cited by Galileo, Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina (1615)
NML has sought to follow this basic tenant.
The Baconian ‘two books’ idea may be helpful;
a) Two divine books BIBLE & NATURE
b) Human Interpretations THEOLOGTY & SCIENCE
The conflict is never between God’s revelations a) but between human understandings of them b).
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Oh my. I think the Church Fathers and medieval scholars took it for granted that the creation narratives could not be treated literally, at least not in the sense we give to that word today, but must be read allegorically–as pointing beyond the stories to spiritual truths.
This was certainly the exegetical method of Origen of Alexandria, the father of patristic exegesis, who said that it is rather nonsensical to think there could have been “days” before the creation of the sun, or that God planted a garden with trees that gave one Wisdom, or that God like to walk in the garden or what have you. Origen argued that these were stories designed to impart spiritual truths, not historical events.
Gregory of Nyssa echoed Origen here. Indeed I think it is something of a theme in patristic texts that the creation of the world should not be construed as scientifically correct descriptions of the origin of the world.
In fact, it very well may have seemed impious to these ancients to do such a thing, to think of creation as a series of divine interventions. For the ancients, God’s creative act was eternal, not temporal, not some event in time, but permeating through all time, because this understanding best preserved a coherent understanding of divine transcendence.
Basil of Caesarea thought of the beginning of time as not one moment but as an eternal and indivisible bringing into existence of the world, from beginning to end.
Origen, John Chrysostom, Augustine all thought of the beginning as the Logos of God, his eternal principle. So while creation is timeless, the natural world unfolded in time, out of its own nature, telos, with nature itself acting as craftsman. And this was the reigning biblical exegesis for centuries.
I also think it is telling that John Henry Newman, a patristics scholar extraordinaire, could find nothing in evolution contrary to or problematic for creation.
However, the modern period is a strange one. Indeed I find less and less to like about it, from a metaphysical or theological perspective at least. But with the modern period came this strange exegetical approach of interpreting the Bible literally, as in completely factual interpretation. So the Bible has come to be what it never was: a set of historical reports true, in exactly the same factual way, and treated with one exegetical technique, with all passages being being exactly compatible with all other passages. Alas…
I guess I don’t see the logical incongruity between divine creation and the evolution of life over time. God’s creative act is the whole unfolding of nature and the source of its very existence. Much like I don’t think my idea that I am the product of sperm and egg is incompatible with God being my creator. The idea that I evolved from prior life forms is not incompatible with my thinking God is my creator.
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The Church has been and still is clear on this . . . from the CCC:
Original sin – an essential truth of the faith
388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”,262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.
389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
How we are able to harmonize certain evolutionary theory claims and the de fide teachings of the Church are what is ultimately in question. So I think it an important topic for Catholics if not for all of Christianity.
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Bravo!
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If you mean by literally false, not a descriptive fact, then I have already given you Church fathers. Also, when I said ancients I meant ancient theologians, fathers, and what have you (Christians).
No, I am not denying that, as this statement makes clear: “stories designed to impart spiritual truths, not historical events.” There is certainly a meaningful sense in which the creation narrative is true, but it is not historical or scientific or what have you.
You say: “if by it you mean that the text was not thought ACCURATELY reflect what happened”
It accurately reflects what happened, sure, I have no problem with that, but it does not accurately reflect historical events. So when Origen says you cannot have “days” before creation of the sun, that is the point he is making. Creation didn’t happen in six days, yet creation did happen in six “days”. “Days” has no literal (read factual) understanding here. I am saying much the same thing about “Adam” and “Eve”. Of course, one need not take that track, as Feser points out.
You say: “you are arguing for a specific version of evolutionary history which cannot be reconciled with the Genesis, without denying that the Genesis is factual.”
Not necessarily, as Feser makes clear, but I am saying that the creation narrative is not factual. I think I need to point out that something can be true without being a fact. Indeed a fact has no truth value in itself.
The creation story is true, yes, but it is not a historical or scientific or factual account. It is about the origin of sin, not man.
And I dare say there is nothing novel at all about this notion.
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From a literary point of view, I am uncomfortable with what you are proposing, because it undermines the generic unity of Genesis. If we take your approach to the Creation, because there is no literary marker to separate it as a unit of that kind from the rest of the text, then there is no reason why we should read the accounts of Abraham or Joseph as being historically factual. This has broader implications for NT studies as well, because of the NT hermeneutic for interpreting prophecy. Jesus, Matthew, and Paul were all literalists as regards their handling of OT texts. The reason their hermeneutic is so disturbing for us is that it is *too* literal for our liking, and seemingly decontextualizing (but in fact context is a lot harder to construct than most lay people are aware of).
My deeper concerns are what you might call the cart and horse problem. Most people want to drive with the horse before the cart as they perceive it. But our approach to the Scripture should be with what we would perceive as the cart before the horse. The point is not to conform the Scripture to how we understand the world, but to conform our understanding of the world to Scripture – even if that means embracing what others would consider ignorance or insanity.
I don’t think we actually need to embrace folly to object to some of the arguments proposed by pro-TOE Christians. Reformed apologetics offers a very helpful approach to the philosophy of science and general questions of methodology, while still employing a careful use of archaeology and literature for constructing a more nuanced approach to hermeneutics. Good Reformed scholars are willing to make careful use of the texts from Ugarit, for example.
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This thread has convinced me that this age is an unsubtle one.
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Reblogged this on No Man's Land.
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Your argument against a 2-human genetic bottleneck seems to rely exclusively on genetic dating. Can you explain how genetic differences (and more importantly, similarities!) can be used to date things? I’m unsure of the method for DNA, but I reject the method as based on circular reasoning in the parallel case of diverging manuscript texts.
What is the relevance of “an empirical perspective” to your judgment of the likelihood “that we, modern humans, evolved from a small population, not a pair in a garden…”? Such an event cannot be replicated experimentally, of course, as you pointed out to GinnyFree, and evolution is more of a historical assertion about what happened instead of what usually happens.
By any chance, have you read C.S. Lewis’s suspicion of modern science’s account of history (including TOE), because it is too romantic of a myth (using the term in much the way you do here)? I forget which work it figures in, but I can dig it up if you’re interested.
All of the above is on the scientific side, which received less discussion in the comments, probably in part because fewer of us are qualified to engage with the details. (You’ll notice I’m mostly just asking questions and clarifying arguments!) On the scriptural and historical theological side, I think you’ve grossly oversimplified the complexities. I don’t see how Genesis 3:9 need be taken non-literally, but no doubt part of the difficulty is that “literally,” “allegorically,” “figuratively” and such words do not have a singular consensus meaning, but always have a meaning dependent upon which side is being favored and which side is being castigated as idiotic. I’m not at all sure that the best way to understand the relationship between Genesis 1 and 2 is as “two different stories.” I have indeed heard Christians suggest ways of interpreting both accounts as historically compatible; much depends upon the implicit scope. Of course, many Christians believe the Bible is inerrant not merely in matters of spiritual truth, but also in matters of physical truth. Augustine himself commented elsewhere (I think in the Confessions, but I’m now not sure) that there were many ways to interpret Genesis, and he was unsure which was right, but he objected to none as long as they were not harmful to the faith. From the comment threads here, it is clear that what one person regards as edifying, another regards as harmful to the faith, and vice versa.
But we must all avoid the danger of oversimplifying the tradition to make it agree with us. Origen did indeed adopt an allegorical interpretation because he thought the Old Testament was full of errors and absurdities, but Aquinas would later say that an allegorical interpretation can only be accepted on the basis of a correct understanding of the literal meaning, which is necessarily true. Many other Christians regarded the Bible as a fine authority about the way the physical world works (what is now called “science”). Indeed, in late antiquity and the medieval world, commentaries on the Six Days of Creation became a genre in which Christian theologians would compile all kinds of knowledge about the natural world, such as all the different species of fishes they had heard of. For those authors, Genesis 1 clearly had what we might now call scientific relevance. My point is that the Christian tradition is mixed in this regard.
I am inherently suspicious of quotations without citations (your Augustine quote, when Googled, only turns up discussions about evolution, not any source document, which makes me wonder if it was not in fact just fabricated for the purpose). I am even more suspicious of lists of theologians without any citations or even quotations, because (short of having memorized all of those authors’ works) it is impossible to verify the relevance, much less the concurrence, of those figures. Rhetorically satisfying, no doubt, but I tend to view it as intellectually dishonest. And “properly understood” just gets my goat, as it replaces “the way I understand it” with the presumption that everyone who disagrees with me is reasoning improperly. I would consider that discourteous.
Again, your statement, “classical Christianity does not even understand the creation of the world as some origin” is bizarre to me in the extreme. I know of no pre-modern Christian author who does not regard God’s creating the world as its origin, *in time* even though the actor is outside of time. The creation of the world, in my reading, was very much understood as an event, because events are what distinguish “between logical possibility and logical necessity, the contingent and the necessary,” to take your quote of Hart. Without events, there is no distinction between those categories.
I don’t see how your view of a timeless eventless creation uniquely reminds us that creation is by grace, and the understanding (which seems to me more broadly traditional) that creation is timed and eventful does not remind us of the same thing. How does your view remind us more of grace? If, as I would think, God’s grace is evident in both understandings, your quote of Anselm is irrelevent to your argument.
I’ll have to go back and review Irenaeus, but I think to regard the distinction between the “image” and the “likeness” of God as two stages of the “creation” of mankind, as Hick does, is probably to beg the question, importing an evolutionary concern. You seem to oppose this interpretation of Irenaeus to the Augustinian doctrine of the Fall and original sin. But Irenaeus himself spoke much of the Fall and of human sin, so I’m not quite sure what you’re hoping to get out of Irenaeus. He also argued against the gnostics perpetual allegorizing of Old Testament accounts, so he might not be the best ally for your mythic reading.
Well, that’s all the time I have for responding in detail, so I’ll bypass Barth’s typically bizarre theories, and Feser’s interesting answer to the question where Cain’s and Abel’s wives came from. I worry, though, that if Feser’s account is true, who is to say that all people we meet really have souls? In other words, would Feser’s account open the door to dehumanizing people we find distasteful, in some strongly vicious ways? The belief that all humans are created in the image of God is a cornerstone of Christian ethical thought, and Feser’s reconciliation could allow that to be swept aside. That doesn’t necessarily mean the idea is false; I just worry about it.
The response your post received to the use of the category “myth” shows precisely why I am impatient with the use of the term by C.S. Lewis. In common parlance, as you mention, “myth” simply means “false.” “Story” would be more neutral with regards to truth or falsity, factuality and moral punchline. But I’m also not at all clear that the ancients regarded myths as not factually true in detail, not to be taken literally. Yes, the stories they told had a point, and made clear certain assertions about their own society, but were they not also regarded as stories that had happened? I don’t know. I think modern people approach the past with too much chauvinism and not enough compassion.
But I really am out of time, having been drafting this response for an hour and a half, and my computer is running out of battery.
I’ll close with a few lessons that we all might learn from this discussion:
1. We don’t really know each other very well, even if we’ve read hundreds of comments by each other. I wouldn’t know Bosco if I passed him on the street, and I have no idea what GinnyFree enjoys. So we should be VERY RELUCTANT to assume things about each other, such as level of expertise, or level of commitment to this or that Christian truth. We should also try to be VERY SLOW to get angry when people mistakenly assume wrong things about us; it’s most likely not so much an insult, as ignorance. I think all of us present have both made erroneous assumptions about other people’s lack of education and gotten angry when other people assumed a lack of education on our part.
2. We don’t know each other very well, in part, because we respond too briefly and read too shallowly. A short reply is often more ambiguous than a long one, but a long one takes so much longer to compose (and for others to read).
3. Some of us who have very sharp disagreements in certain areas appear to band together in other areas. Bosco was even designated “the Great” by a Roman Catholic! This may be worth remembering in the heat of disagreements: we disagree about some things, but not about all things.
4. In this comment space, as in every other, we really need to practice the Lord’s command to “love your neighbor as yourself”!
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Hello Theo. Very nice well thought out reply. I noticed your natural unease regarding the purpose and intent of such speculations regarding the ETs (read Evolution Theories) You stated this: ” I worry, though, that if Feser’s account is true, who is to say that all people we meet really have souls? In other words, would Feser’s account open the door to dehumanizing people we find distasteful, in some strongly vicious ways? The belief that all humans are created in the image of God is a cornerstone of Christian ethical thought, and Feser’s reconciliation could allow that to be swept aside. That doesn’t necessarily mean the idea is false; I just worry about it.”
This is the exact reason why the Church warned about these “sciences.” We were told that the Communists loved to promote evolutionary sciences because it did exactly as you noted, de-humanized persons who were no longer made in the image a likeness of God, but instead were not much better than animals and so capable of being bred or destroyed at the will of a government body. Slaves of the state. Some still are. The lessons of the brutality of Communism shows exactly what happens when men and women are considered animals as No Man’s Land described all of us. I was told my him I am an animal. Not a kind or polite thing to say about anyone yet that is what his research has helped him see about all mankind: animals.
Objectification of all of humanity. A very dark and negative goal. Thanks for noticing the troubling undercurrent to such “science.” God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Origen, On First Principles, IV.ii.i. Basil, On the Six Days, I.vi. Gregory of Nyssa, Commentary on the Song of Songs, prologue, On the Six Days. Augustine, On Genesis Read Literally, V.xxiii. On the Trinity, III.ix.
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Thank you! That gives me something to chew on. Unfortunately, I’ve been at a conference the past two days, and have to write a paper for a conference starting a week from today, so we’ll see whether I get to it here, or whether discussion here has entirely moved on (in which case I may post a follow-up on my blog and refer to it here).
Thank you again for the citations and the stimulating argument!
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Thank you. No worries. I’ve been out of town myself this weekend.
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Ratzinger: In the Beginning ‘: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall, pg. 50
Anselm, The Harmony of Foreknowledge, The Predestination, and the Grace of God with Free Will, II
Epistle of Barnabas, Early Christian Writing, pg. 187
Ambrose, from A History of Christian Thought. vol. II, McGiffert, Arthur.
Aquinas, Clarke’s The One and the Many: A Contemporary Thomistic Metaphysics
C.S Lewis, The Discarded Image
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Can you give specific page references and quotes so I can check them out? Live a biblio of sorts. It would help. Thanks. I will BTW take the time to check them. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Sure. On the Anselm pg. 198-223
McGiffert, pg. 55-62
Lewis, the whole book is a nice portrait of medieval and ancient views of the cosmos
I don’t have the Clarke handy, but I was able to find a decent review here
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Also, Origen On First Principles, II (Book 2)
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On the Anselm also it is the edited and translated version by Hopkins and Richardson
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Just for clarity’s sake, the Augustine quote is in the first reply.
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QQ
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I am Bosco the Great
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Wow. You must be smart
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What the freakis happening to m avatar?
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test
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These idiots that use this computer realy jack it up. Theres nothing I can do about it.
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You’re right Bosco. Stay calm and don’t get your shorts rumpled. You did good. Maybe we should hand him over to Torquemada. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ah yes, St Torquemada. No Man will sing a different tune when Torquemada gets his meat hooks into him.
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A real and justifiable concern has been raised about the dehumanising use that some atheist have used evolutionary theory for. But not all atheist are of this sort. Recently an atheist doctor a gentle and compassionate man spent his holidays with us and I had the opportunity of several extended conversations with him about the Lord in an attempt to clear some of his sceptical objections.
In this regard I think we should also be concerned about theologies that carry their theories or interpretations further than teachings of scripture and then enforce them as an exclusive understanding; particularly where such views become an objectionable to faith for some. Atheistic humanist will frequently object to concepts of the ‘total depravity’ of human nature or ‘original sin’ which pass guilt and attract divine punishment in and of itself irrespective of personal sanctity.
I do not object strongly to Christians holding such views but I do when alternate orthodox explanations are withheld from those who might be won to Christ by them. This is the main danger in the whole creation/evolution debate that I would like to see the church avoid.
That God is creator of all things good and of man made in God’s image who nonetheless fell by his own choice from the divine purpose and received the promise of redemption by the seed of the woman are the truths that all Christians draw from the Geneses creation account. These truths should be enough to unite us and in my opinion we should become as conversant as we can with the various ways in which they may be interpreted to our communities that we might ‘become all things to all men’ while holding firm the essential truths in order that ‘we might win some’ for the Lord and His kingdom.
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I guess the bottom line for me is that this subject has great similarity to the discourse of Jesus in John 6 about the necessity to eat His body and drink His blood. It does not line up, even after the understanding of transubstantiation, to the demands of science that understands a ‘thing’ by its appearance, sensory attributes or how it acts and behaves in a consistent way. So most people left Jesus over this revelation at the time and many others to this day are confounded or scandalized by the teaching and come up with clever but unconvincing ways to accept the teaching.
With Adam and Eve and the preternatural gifts as revealed by the Bible and the Church over the years we have come to accept this, as we have the 2 natures of Christ, the Eucharist and the Trinity as definitive teaching and foundational to the faith. We can give demonstrations for its acceptance as a doctrine but no proofs exist. In like manner, science can give demonstrations but lack proof as well.
So do we as Christians accept it on the word of God or the authority of the Church or do we trust our science, still developing and still evolving, to replace our foundational teachings? For me, it is a matter of staying the course with Peter and saying with him; “To whom shall we go?” The choice is there; it need not be a matter of fundamentalism but it is in regards to revealed truth and our understanding of why we needed a Savior and where we are left when these foundation stones are accepted to be only vapor; a convenient method of explaining that which science and reason will never grasp. There is a reason therefore, why faith is the prerequisite of all spiritual and physical healing and the gifts and graces of God especially in the efficacy of the Sacraments as given to Christ’s Church for the Salvation of men.
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SF good post, I’m with you.
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I do not see how evolution as such necessitates the denial of any essential truths or denies our need of a saviour. I understand your concern over ‘original sin’. However there was no question of the Fathers pre Augustine thinking we did not need a saviour and they did not require a doctrine of original sin to establish that need.
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The Church and Her Authority over such matters has left us what we must believe with faith. I doubt science will ever accept that death came into the world because of a single act of disobedience; but the Church and the Bible speak of such.
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No I doubt they will.
However if we leave Paul’s thoughts unfinished it might be taken that all death from that point on was the direct result of that one act of disobedience and its guilt, and that thought might seem unreasonable to a reasonable man.
Which if I understand correctly was what Augustine taught, believing from his translation of Romans that ‘all sinned in Adam’, but it was definitely not what Paul wrote or I think what others taught prior to Augustine:
“Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men BECAUSE all men sinned” Rom. 5:12
In the following verse Paul goes on to emphasis the discontinuity between the sin that caused Adam’s death and the sin that continued to cause death.
“Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were NOT like the transgression of Adam …” 5:14
True Paul goes on to say “many died through one man’s trespass 5:15” as this trespass brought about a radical change in the conditions in which men found themselves and their communion with God. Yet the direct cause of universal death is not the guilt of Adam’s sin but is attributed by Paul the spread of sin to all men.
This might appear more reasonable to a reasonable man than Augustine’s interpretation.
I think the RCC at times has ‘painted itself into a corner’ with rigid definitions that allow for no variation and seem unreasonable to many.
I hope that you can see that my concerns are continually not just to be nit-picky over theology but to be as effective as we can removing what may be unreasonable obstacles to faith.
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And as my commentary says: Sin is not imputed when there was sin against the law of nature during the period between Adam and Moses, but the sins committed before the Law were not imputed as a cause of death, when the condition was not expressed. Yet all, even infants, underwent death. It must be then because all mankind shared some way in the sin of Adam.
And although it is Genesis being questioned, it does read that among the curses that God placed on the Serpent and Adam and Eve the return to dust from which you came (death) was part of this.
You may say that the Church has backed itself into a corner though the Church has been teaching for 2000 years and has yet to find a real and substantial proof for disbelieving those things that are taught in faith and morals. The Church will have no problem with EVO if they find a proof that leaves the defined teachings taken from the story intact. Until that day, it must be seen for what it is; a theory that looks promising but does not deliver on all that it must; therefore, incomplete.
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It must be then because all mankind shared some way in the sin of Adam.………
I do not think so as Rom. 5:12 gives the definitive reason “Because all sinned”. If Augustin’s version had said so rather than that ‘all sinned in Adam’ maybe his doctrine would have been better.
Of course the church has not taught this doctrine for 2000 years as you suggest, if you mean the RCC, it has only taught it since the fourth century.
History and doctrine to some extent like the history of warfare has been written by the victors but victory was not always achieved by genuine ecumenical deliberation. Augustine’s adversary when these matters came to a head Pelagius was miss represented in the West, he received better treatment in the East. He was acquitted of heresy by two Popes but later proclaimed a heretic.
Today I doubt the RCC would claim him a heretic, as it is Protestant Reformers viewed the RCC as semi-Pelagians.
I was always taught that Pelagius never did teach the things he was accused of and simply trusted those who said so. However recently I have read what he was accused of on RCC sites and also read most of his own works and trial accounts (at which he was acquitted by 2 popes) that I can find in English, currently I still have to finish his commentary on Romans. What he writes seems a lot closer to RCC views I am picking up here that what Reformed people have made of Augustin.
I have just reviewed Hans Lietzmann “A History of the Early Church” who summarises Irenaeus teaching on ’The Fall’ as follows:
“He created Adam furnished him with body and soul, and endowed him with a will free to do good or evil. As a consequence, at the beginning, Adam possessed a similarity to God which was meant to lead him into fellowship with the Spirit of God by living in a manner pleasing to God, and thereby at last make him the perfect image of God endowed with ‘aphtharsia’ Iren. 4, 337,1-4 (2,285 ff). The Fall destroyed God’s plan, and handed Adam and his descendants over to the power of the devil, who was now continually successful in turning mankind aside from obedience towards God, and consigning then to death and destruction”.
The author goes onto grant that Irenaeus says nothing about the natural transmission of inherited sin, nor about any loss of the freedom of the will. Man could still will the good and turn to God: indeed apart from this ability, the exhortations of the prophets would have been quite incomprehensible. Iren. 4, 7, 2 (2,286 f.) And why should God have given the Law?
All this pre Augustine theology I am fully in agreement with.
Pelagius made exactly the same claims was acquitted of heresy but the decision overturned upon the overwhelming popularity of Augustine’s views.
I have the sense that if Pelagius would not have received such treatment RCC doctrine on these matters would not have become so solidified in line with Augustine but would have retained the broader views of earlier times. In my opinion a healthier situation.
But as even your chief man says “Who am I to judge”! 🙂
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Of course, the wages of sin is death as Paul tells us. This would lead one to think that if there had not been sin in Adam that he would not have tasted the wage of sin.
As to the fathers who are in a process of development of our theology, it matters little that they, at their time, make some error in judgment as Origin did at the end and it cost him what should have been sainthood for his other work. Doctrine develops but it does not overturn itself.
Also, it is implicit that even in the OT this idea was present already:
Sirach 40
Hard work was created for everyone,
and a heavy yoke is laid on the children of Adam,
from the day they come forth from their mother’s womb
until the day they return to[a] the mother of all the living.[b]
2 Perplexities and fear of heart are theirs,
and anxious thought of the day of their death.
3 From the one who sits on a splendid throne
to the one who grovels in dust and ashes,
Also, St. Paul speaks of all who die in Adam.
1 Corinthians 15
21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
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Thanks SF. You do this stuff so easily. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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None of which I deny and none of which teaches what Augustine made of these texts.
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Have you yet read the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia? I think it will show you where you err.
And as it tells us in 4 Esdras, written by a Jew, we see the belief in the effects of Original Sin long before the NT had begun. For instance:
4 THE APOCALYPSE OF EZRA
The Promises of future Felicity only mock a
Sin-stained Race (VII. [ii6]-[i3i])
[ii6.] And I answered and said : This is my first
and last word ; that it would have been better for the earth not to have produced Adam or (else) when she did produce him that thou hadst instructed him not to sin. [117.] For how doth it profit all who have come to live here in affliction, and when they are dead to await torment? [118.] Oh, what hast thou done, Adam! For though it was thou that didst sin, yet the evil was not thine alone, but ours
also who are from thee!
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That’s an interesting quote I discuss these matter with friends when next I have opportunity.
I still think Pelagius got a raw deal but then he was something of a close neighbour (from another time) probably being an Irishman born and living in South Wales. 🙂
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It is. I meant to say however that it did not predate the NT church but the Canon of the New Testament: written in the first century A.D. It does show that the idea of a Original Sin that is generated is inherited by all men.
Also, the explanation of the Romans quote is rather well covered, I think.
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Lovely lovely, Sf. Lovely. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I’ll see yer Esdras and raise ya a Tobit: You made Adam, and you made his wife Eve to be his helper and support; and from these two the human race has come.
You said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone;
let us make him a helper like himself.’ Tobit 8:6.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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And this we believe: “from these two . . .”
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Also Rob, I think this entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia will clear up a lot of confusion here as well:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm#III
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Thanks for the link, which I downloaded, I have read the article through some sections of which will require careful thought and discussion with others on my part. In the interests of understanding where we agree I have reproduced from the link two of the paragraphs see below.
I agree with the first paragraph apart from the phrase “with original sin on their souls”. In that respect I see it as more about what was lost ‘in Adam’ and hence for his descendants rather than what was negatively attributed to them. For the second paragraph I agree with what I have retained below. So I do not think our differences are as far apart as seemed at first but it is rather different than Augustine’s scheme.
But according to Catholic theology man has not lost his natural faculties: by the sin of Adam he has been deprived only of the Divine gifts to which his nature had no strict right, the complete mastery of his passions, exemption from death, sanctifying grace, the vision of God in the next life. The Creator, whose gifts were not due to the human race, had the right to bestow them on such conditions as He wished and to make their conservation depend on the fidelity of the head of the family. A prince can confer a hereditary dignity on condition that the recipient remains loyal, and that, in case of his rebelling, this dignity shall be taken from him and, in consequence, from his descendants. It is not, however, intelligible that the prince, on account of a fault committed by a father, should order the hands and feet of all the descendants of the guilty man to be cut off immediately after their birth. This comparison represents the doctrine of Luther which we in no way defend. The doctrine of the Church supposes no sensible or afflictive punishment in the next world for children who die with nothing but original sin on their souls, but only the privation of the sight of God [Denz., n. 1526 (1389)].
Nature of original sin
This is a difficult point and many systems have been invented to explain it: it will suffice to give the theological explanation now commonly received. Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam. This solution, which is that of St. Thomas, goes back to St. Anselm and even to the traditions of the early Church, as we see by the declaration of the Second Council of Orange (A.D. 529): one man has transmitted to the whole human race ——- the privation of the principle of life, the death of the soul is the privation of sanctifying grace which according to all theologians is the principle of supernatural life. Therefore, if original sin is “the death of the soul”, it is the privation of sanctifying grace.
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Yes it is quite an informative entry. I think you will see how Protestants have mistaken much of what Augustine said on this as well on a closer read. 🙂
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Yes, I do agree. Sadly, St. Augustine gets twisted to almost unrecognizable proportions by both Protestants and Catholics these days. I once picked up a used copy of Confessions translated by an Anglican and I couldn’t believe what I was reading because so many liberties were clearly taken. My original reading was of a copy from my college’s library so I didn’t have it handy to compare with this dog eared yard sale find that cost all of a $1.00. Some of the things he supposedly sad were quite astonishing and clearly “translated” to agree with some Protestant theological positions. If I’d not read the other good copy earlier, I’d have probably not known any better other than to wonder why he seemed so Protestant in some key areas. But, I’m a natural skeptic and think twice about most stuff anyway, so I figured it out. I was so put off by it, I almost wrote to the publisher a nasty letter. I didn’t. Instead I simply pitched the book, but I still have a mental picture of the cover and never by any books published by that particular publisher. Spin doctors work on more than politicians stories. Much of history gets re-written from time to time for various reasons and folks are quite bold in re-telling old tales to suit. Yep. Now, when folks use St. Augustine to prove one of their theological positions, I simply figure their quoting from a distorted source. Most probably aren’t even aware that their sources took liberties with the originals. Sad but true. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yes Confessions is an interesting book in the multitude of translations. I bought 3 before I hit on the one that was the most readable and true to his spirit: it was a translation by FJ Sheed and it was the most readable of any I’ve come across.
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My copy of ‘confessions’ a CC version is translated by Sir Tobie Matthew, and ‘City of God’ trans by Henry Bettenson, – how do they rate?
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I really wouldn’t know Rob. I rated the translations on my on intuition and the readability of the text. I knew Frank Sheed was an excellent publisher and writer and my City of God copy was abridged . . . so I have not yet looked for a full copy that has the readability and the intuitive feel that I get from reading about the man and many of his early writings. I think you kind of get a feel for a man after a while and if you find a translation that matches that well . . . it is probably a good sign.
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I’ve been through three copies of the City of God and have found my latest the best: Marcus Dods. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Thanks. I haven’t read much of Augustine for years but in my retirement I may start through some of these again.
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Rob honestly, you could check with a good librarian in a solid college. They pretty much know their stuff and can steer you clear of how shall I say this, less-then-perfect copies. I’m outta their league. I have a particular gal in mind, but you’d have to go see her at the reference desk I’m afraid. She’s absolutely amazing. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Very good Rob. But do you agree? I hope so.
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I agree some see my replies.
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Oh Yippie yippie! Careful, Catholicism can sneak up on you. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if every one all of a sudden took the plunge and swam the Tiber together? Here’s a nice story: http://religiondispatches.org/evangelicals-crossing-the-tiber-to-catholicism/ God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Speaking for myself, I would be happier with a deeper devotion to Christ and greater effectiveness in His service irrespective of which Christian body we are all associated with.
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Ya can’t get any deeper than St. John of the Cross. I suggest you read The Dark Night of the Soul translated by Kavanaugh though. The re-writes twist his stuff too. I read too much. But sometimes it pays. I read my way into the Church. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Indeed, I would buy the collected works by Kieran Kavanaugh as it has all of his works in one place. I would start with Living Flame of Love then Ascent of Mt. Carmel and then finish with Dark Night of the Soul. At one point I was a member of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, OCDS (took my promises but not the vows). I had to stop as I just could not make the meetings every week . . . it was a killer traveling back and forth and I was younger then, LOL.
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Very good stuff SF, Then you know how moving his stuff can be. One thing I notice when I read his stuff is an almost immediate challenge to a particular sin I’m grappling with at the time. I have no idea how that happens, but I’ve given up to the fact that it does. Sort of a spiritual brillo pad. He shows me where I need some polish. But I’m consecrated via the Montfort route, so endeavors into Carmelite spirituality are only blissful temptations. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I was reading the Ascent when I had my conversion experience. So yes, he is very important to me as well.
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Yes I have read it and spoken with SF somewhat of my extended dark night. Was he also the author of The Assent of Mount Carmel?
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Yes indeed he is the author of both. As I said to Ginny earlier (see my reply to her suggestion) I would start with Living Flame of Love followed by The Ascent of Mt. Carmel and then read The Dark Night of the Soul. And if you would like a simple theological understanding of the process of sanctification of the spiritual life you could read the pertinent parts in Adolphe Tanguerey’s classic: The Spiritual Life. And if you want and in-depth treatment the best explanation in my view and thoroughly readable is Garrigou-Lagrange’s book, The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life (a large two volume set but will worth the time it takes to read it).
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I have watched quite a number of the coming home series but have not recently as I find them most frustrating, naturally biased and a very poor representation of evangelical belief. The most frequent compelling reason for change by participants (I cannot call it conversion, as true conversion can only be one that is to Christ Himself) towards an alternative Christian club sub set is usually a search for authority.
I have never felt any motivation to seek such assurance of authority of that sort, as my assurance is in Christ from where all spiritual authority of any worth is dispensed.
My faith has found a resting place
Not in a form or creed
I trust the ever living one
His wounds for me will plead
I need no other argument
I need no other plea
It is enough that Jesus died
And that He died for me!
I was converted to Christ as a child and my faith and love for Christ was constantly ridiculed by my apostate Catholic mother and atheist father. I have sought to live my life in His service am at peace with that and look for no other type of conversion but only a deepening of my devotion to my Lord God and Saviour.
I do not think I will ever be a candidate for the RCC sub set of Christians.
Be blessed as you follow Him Rob
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And if you’ve never seen this story, it is well worth your trouble too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrqrZzqWokk God bless. Ginnyfree.
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So Rob, there ya have it – St. Paul calling the Genesis accounts facts. Still need evolution to explain it for you? I should hope not. If our accounts are good enough for both Jesus Christ and St. Paul (not to mention every believing Christian since and the Jews prior) why aren’t they good enough since Darwin et al.? Really. Who’s the fool now? Those who need scientific proofs before believing have no faith and those who rely on science for proofs of their faith have a partial, untrusting faith. Thanks for adding your two cents worth. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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As I read the scenario presented by NML he came up with a theory (I stress a theory) that accommodated evolution and a literal Adam and Eve.
As such I cannot see how you claim he denies either the truth of Genesis creation of man and the fall or Jesus or Paul’s commentary on it.
Such theories may assist in removing unnecessary objections to the Bible for some sorts. For myself I have little care how our Lord did it I know He did and that is good enough for me.
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Rob, I don’t know if you read thru the whole exchange, but he did say to him Genesis is a myth. That he said in more than one place to more than one person. He then went on to say that as a myth, it conveys something about a religion, not necessarily his own. His use of the polygenistic view that there were multiple points of origin for the various races and allowing that for Genesis by substituting a primordial “Adam and Eve” as one set of those primordial parent lines could be one of the sources has been tried before by others and dismissed by the Church. If anything it is a nod to us at best, but it still places the scientific data and theories OVER theology. He marries two ideas to come up with a third and it really isn’t his own. Others have said as much. It still doesn’t make it acceptable.
I know you aren’t Catholic and like a few of the others here, aren’t bound to accept all the Church teaches regarding Genesis, but you still need to respect our differences. There is much scholarship invested in all of these controversies. It always causes sparks to fly because it attacks so many doctrinal items at once. I will always feel a need to respond to these attacks of the fundamentals of my faith. I’ve seen many fall away rapidly once they give in on this very simple thing. The TOE and what accepting it does is it destroys the faith of those who tangle with it. The Fathers in my Church, those endowed with actual Apostolic Authority who can and do speak for Christ, have warned us a plenty and trying to grow in the virtue of Prudence, I can listen without doubt. They are correct to have warned us. I’m smart to have listened and not ashamed at all to say so. I’m very grateful to God for them and all who came before them and for all those who are to come. They are a great blessing.
God bless. Ginnyfree
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Agree with ROB evolution does not disqualify Christian truths. They are on two different planes which do not intersect and neither plane qualifies or disqualifies the other.
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Thank you very much SF. Well said. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny I do want to apologize if my comments have offended you in any way. After prayerful reflection, I can see how jerkish I was being towards you. I wasn’t right in that and I do apologize.
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No need to apologize. We all have our ways here. The passions run high naturally when it comes to religious matters. St. Peter himself was ready and willing to kill for Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane and nearly did! He only got an ear to show for his valor and Jesus gave it back to the poor man who by that time, didn’t want to get in between Christ, His disciples or the Romans and Jews ever again! What a lesson. I sometimes wonder whatever became of that poor guy, nearly killed by Peter and healed by Christ all in a few minutes. Not the way I expect he had his day planned out at all when he got up that morning. Chalcedon’s charitable views of us all keeps the lid on. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God. The application of this beatitude broadens. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well said.
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Catholic pilgrims gather kneeling around a statue of Virgin Mary, overseeing the area around a pilgrimage site near the Southern-Bosnian town of Medjugorje on June 25, 2011. The Virgin Mary is said to have appeared the first time here on June 25, 1981, to youths and is since then a magnet for Christians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/10/virgin-mary-apparitions-medjugorje_n_7548398.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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So what’s your point St. Bisto?
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I have no point. Just the facts ma am, just the facts.
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Oh Diana, ooops, I mean Mary, save me.
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Pingback: Of Myths and Men | All Along the Watchtower
Do we really need a silly myth story about original sin to convince us that man does not achieve salvation and redemption without Christ? I don’t need a silly myth story to explain that . The nature of humans is that we are incomplete without God and we approach the divine through Christ. In that sense we are mere clay. Someone needs a silly story to convince them that we are mere mortals needing restoration because humanity is flawed? I know that without nursery rhyme story or science. Don’t we all know that even without Genesis qualification attempt to declare the human condition ?
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Carl, it isn’t just about understanding Christ. Once you dismiss Genesis as mythology, the rest of the Scriptures WILL also be open to disbelief and dismissal. Take a look at your Bible sitting on the shelf and imagine it WITHOUT the first book, Genesis. Does it look diminished? No. Then imagine it without several other books, say, Jonah because of the whale, and Daniel because of the ridiculousness of three men standing in a forge full of flames and not being burnt up but actually singing. There goes two more. How about Job? A man losing as much as he did all in one day and a devil being responsible for it? Oh dear! Modern Psychology has revealed the truth about all such demonic influences and so Job too needs removal. Has your Bible lost anything yet? Perhaps since all things demonic have been exposed for what they are considered by science these days as simply mental illnesses and epilepsy, perhaps you can go through the entire Gospel accounts and simply take a black marker to all the accounts of things demonic in them. It would take a while because there are many. Okay, now let’s look into Exodus, the Red Sea splitting in two and dry land appearing? Come on, you aren’t buying that one are you? And Noad and the flood? Science knows these are all simply false. Take all references to such things out of your copy of the Holy Scriptures. Pure science guiding your reading will limit the pages you actually look at. Okay, now about all those MIRACLES Jesus supposedly did, multiplication of bread, persons with shriveled limbs being made whole while witnesses watched, dead persons rising happy and hungry? Come on now, you’re smart then that. See how much mythology science can relieve you of. Only fools and the un-educated will fall for such pious nonsense. So, Carl, how does you HOLY Bible look now that science has revealed it truths to you and enlightened your mind to its values? Be honest. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Science and faith are on two different planes and do not intersect. Belief in one does not exclude or diminish the truth of the other. Science stuff does not lesson my joy in the embrace of Christ and to experience the comfort and healing He provides. Indeed our Table presents bread and wine not microscopes and test tubes. I suppose one can be a Christian believing in Genesis, believing in evolution or not considering either one at all. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world and our souls seek that embrace not the embrace of a dinosaur. Science does not dismiss the OT experience of the Hebrews nor does it dismiss the the truth in The Gospel of the NT.
“Take a look at your Bible sitting on the shelf and imagine …” Now GINNY, you have no idea how you made me howl with laughter. You go girl ! I loved the punch !
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EVOLUTION Arithmetic does not apply here as chance probability is not a part of evolution theory anymore. Today’s evolutionists don’t see it the way Darwin did, ie chance mutation. The current thinking is that genes change through adaptation which is a process not a chance mutation so all the numbers are meaningless because you are applying them to old Darwinist explanation no longer held by scientists. Mutation as explanation for replacement species as upgrade idea is not current evolution theory. Adapt or die out but some species did not need restructure to survive while others continued to branch off. Darwin lays a foundation which is constantly being refined almost daily in paleontology just as Freud created a foundation for psychiatry which has also very little likeness to today’s remodeled understandings.
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