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Yesterday’s post began a discussion of what it means to ‘be saved’ and ended touching on the thorny question of who will be saved; here I want to continue with that for a while.
Contrary to the impression given by some, we are not Christians by ourselves, we are Christians in the Church; if we are saved by coming to Christ, we live our life as a Christian in a community. To what extent does that impact on our spiritual lives?
In my time I have belonged to a number of churches, but with one possible exception, none of them have done very much for my spiritual life, which has been largely led elsewhere. That may well be my own fault, but it has left me pondering all the same.
As some of you know, my eldest son is a Baptist Pastor in the Potteries of England. His preaching is, to my own mind, impeccably orthodox, and yet he is not a Catholic, neither is there any chance of his becoming one. If, as seems to be the case, I am asked to conceive of a situation in which someone who has devoted his whole life to Christ is liable not to be saved because he cannot accept and believe all that the Catholic Church believes, then that makes me stop and think. It is hard enough to accept, as some would say I must, that my father, a man who had thrown at him just about every misfortune life can afford, and who as a result of the sort of experiences which would now lead to a court case, rejected priests, vicars and the whole of what they represented, might be barred from Heaven, but to accept that my son, and his twin brother, another God-fearing young man, are also subject to the same fate is one against which every decent instinct revolts. What does Jesus say?
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24
I well understand the struggle in the early church to preserve orthodoxy, and the fact that often, it was only in relation to unorthodoxy that orthodoxy needed to be defined. The Church has always been Trinitarian, but it did not always feel the need to define and defend that position; it was only when men came along and tried to say otherwise that a defence and explanation became necessary.
My own spiritual journey has led me across the Tiber. It would have been easier for me if that had taken place when the Ordinariate had existed, but it was not ease I sought, but the Truth in its fulness. But it took me very many years to get there, and if I look back, I see Grace in every step of the way, as well as my own blindness – which makes the Grace all the more amazing.
I hope that the ‘field hospital’ that is the Church is providing me with the spiritual medication of which I stand in need. But when I look at Anglican friends, or at my sons, I see people as devoted, if not more so, to God and to His Word, who, for whatever reasons, cannot get to the place I got to, I cannot, in my heart, believe that the Only Just Judge will condemn them for their choice. I know that I, not even fit to be the ‘chief of sinners’, would not behave so were it in my power, and I cannot believe that Almighty God would have in a manner worse than myself.
Yes, it is true that God’s ways are not our ways, but it is also true that we are made in God’s image, and I do not believe that our instinct of mercy is a perversion of the image of God; rather, it is reflection of a mercy and justice so vastly beyond our comprehension, that we may grasp it only in part when, as a parent, we look at our children.
So, as I am bound, I believe the Catholic Church is the best place for us to be as Christians, but the Church teaches neither that all Catholics are saved, nor that only members of the Catholic Church may be saved. Some may counter (but why?) with the ‘extra ecclesiam nulla salus’, to which I reply that it is God who defines who is and is not a member of His Church. If, as I hope and pray. I make it to Heaven, I suspect I shall be delighted by who I find there; some may have reached the stage where they can overcome the disappointment they might think they will currently feel. If not, then it will be, for me, a very odd Heaven, as I am the only member of my family to have been a Catholic for many, many generations.
Amen.
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Gloria Patri et Filio et Spiritui Sancto.
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Ah, the language of the Caesars.
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I pray your son comes home, Chalcedon.
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:
“…the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.”
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Amen.
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Good to see you back, QV – hope all is well?
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Very well thank you, venerable sir,
And with you?
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Glad to hear it – working hard to create a truly Catholic university in the UK, and it is going well
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Excellent work.
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I hope so – but all is in God’s hands
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If his son knows the Lord, he will have nothing to do with graven images.
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“Once you’ve tried fresh, you’ll never go back to canned” – eh Bosco?
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I believe so.
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Wesley or Whitfield was asked if he thought that he’d see the other in Heaven. One said, No. Why was that? Because the other would be so much nearer the throne of God.
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Wesley is one of my favourite heretics.
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LOL.
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You know Chalcedon, I may be wrong and many Catholics will yell heretic but Its for me to not think that my Lutheran wife has a far better chance at heaven then myself. She’s a far better Saint then I think I’ll ever be.
However, I suppose I will submit fully to God’s justice and have faith in his plan of salvation. After all, I believe much of it is still a mystery.
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There is an ignorance which is not necessarily fatal to salvation, but it is not because of the ignorance but in spite of it that the individual is potentially capable of being saved. All error naturally tends towards disaster.
We have received no positive affirmation from the Church that, in concrete fact, any particular non-Catholic has died in the state of Grace and been admitted to Heaven.
Please keep praying and working for your wife’s conversion.
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Good to see you around q
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I am glad. How is the world with you, Philip?
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It’s good, I’m hoping that in the next week I get a job promotion, which will allow more time to blog, which I love to do. I will be having six new pieces coming out in the next 6 weeks on some of the Church Fathers, as I am giving free discussions on the topic with a free book. I am hoping to educated some of my fellow Catholics, I only hope that I can get them in the door.
What about you?
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Just ticking along as usual at my end, Philip. Best of luck for the promotion.
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The Church only pronounces on one set of people as being in Heaven – the Saints.
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Yes, of course.
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I am with you entirely
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“Extra ecclesiam nulla salus” means that only those in fact or desire united to Holy Church can be saved.
Unless you have reason to believe otherwise – which perhaps you do in the cases you describe – the stated rejection of the Church’s teachings is prima facie pretty good evidence that the individual does not meet the criteria.
Positive animus against Her, which many display, is proof of ill-will and a sign of reprobation.
Being a teacher of a false sect is a definite no-no. If your son goes to Hell because he doesn’t listen to you, then that is his responsibility alone; if your son goes to Hell because you do not tell him what he needs to hear, that is yours.
If he goes to heaven, everyone’s a winner. But heresy is a mortal sin against faith.
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Here here. Only catholic faithful members will be saved.
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God, alone, decides.
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A non Catholic cannot be a heretic, is, I believe, Church teaching.
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There’s a long technical answer that involves Latin theological concepts of material heresy vs. formal heresy, but suffice it to say I suspect most or all sincere Christians, Catholic or not, do not hold opinions that they believe are wrong, and therefore on a subjective level I think honest Christians cannot have the charge of heresy imputed to them, even if they unknowingly hold to heterodox opinions on some matters. That’s a matter strictly for God to judge, and I think the scriptures are clear that God is far more merciful than any of us are. This all goes back to the mysterious nature of salvation, and I believe that we have reasonable grounds for being optimistic about the salvation of those who sincerely call upon the name of Christ, and yet we should pray for the unity of Christendom because the plurality of denominations is a sin against the truth.
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Very good explanation
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Well, heretics aren’t Catholic – so I’m not quite sure what you mean by this.
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Simply what I said – heresy is to do with those in the Church and their beliefs
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Public heresy severs one from the body of the Church
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Gosh….what are catholics going to do now that all your priests are excommunicado? I guess you get no god brought down from heaven anymore. Time to go religion shopping again.
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All, really? Gosh, you wouldn’t be lying again? I looked, most priests have not been excommunicated – why do you need to lie? It is the spirit in you; if you do not repent, remember me when you are in the lake of fire A I prayed for you, but you thought you spoke with Jesus and did not listen. You have time
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They are automatically excommunicated if they break CC law, like having gay orgies, and other excercises in forbidden vices. That just about is all of them. of course you claim its just one or two. If you say it enough you might believe it. it keeps you from waking up in the nite screaming.
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I have never claimed it is one or two, another direct lie. Bosco, your testimony here is to lie and lie again. You do Satan’s work, not hard to see what new spirit occupies you. It tells you it is holy and speaks for Jesus, but it’s words are lies and from the father of lies.
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Insightful piece.
Let’s be thankful the Church will not be doing the judging. We all know the limits of human forgiveness and understanding.
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Theres nothing to judge.
Either you knew the Lord in this life or you didn’t. There are no shades or degrees of knowing the Lord.
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I can’t disagree with you there, Bosco.
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QVO, glad to have you back!
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Good to be back, Mr Brown.
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I’m in a position of learning the Catholic faith, not teaching it. Still, I think it’s natural to ask ourselves these questions. When I think about this subject, a couple of things pop to mind. The first: judge not. It’s hard for me to think of an application of this teaching that is more relevant, though I will happily receive correction on this point.
The second: trust God. I can’t help but think of the story of Abraham and Isaac. We must hand everything precious over to God and do all that He asks, trusting in His infinite goodness and power to effect something much better than we ever could.
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Also, I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts!
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Thank you.
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Being outside of the canonical boundaries of the church doesn’t mean non-Catholics are devoid of grace or not living truly Christian lives. To cite a well-worn statement, we know by the visible canonical boundaries where the church is, but we don’t know where it isn’t. It is undeniable that everyone who is to be saved will be members of the one church, but how God brings people outside of the visible church into the church and therefore into salvation is quite the mystery that we just aren’t given the privilege of knowing. All I know is, Christ atoned for everyone’s sins and God is a loving Father who wills that none perish. God is not a legalist, even if some within the church want to think so.
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Very true, Steven
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Yes, one should stay inside the boundaries of the pure and white universal Catholic church. Ahhh, how wonderful.
So, whats in the Daily News for us?
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It does mean they are in grave spiritual peril.
For example. If you adopt the doctrines of a group that defends, for example, divorce or contraception (as many Protestant sects do), and you act on those beliefs and commit grave sin, (as many Protestants do) you DO cut yourself off from grace.
Error tends towards disaster. Doctrinal error is the most dangerous, as touching on the fate of your immortal soul.
All Protestants are, at best, in material error on a point of doctrine.
Given that a great many Catholic adults, according to a number of saints, are unlikely to get to Heaven, what are the chances of those without the benefits of a sound education in the faith?
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Also, a great many catholic priests are going to hell. Why would your priests, your men of god, your little Christs, your teachers of faith and morals be going to hell? They bring God down from heaven with their incantations to present to the faithful for their amusement. They have special godly powers. One would at least expect the teachers of the faith to be godly men of god. Now if the teachers are going to hell, it stands to reason that the flock is not going to heaven either. If the blind lead the blind, both shall stumble and fall into the ditch.
Seems that the catholic church only offers the ditch. Follow them and fall into it.
Time to cry out to Jesus for salvation.
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It seems you don’t understand sin. Hoe good that you can throw the first stone.
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Allow me to warn my brothers about false lying teachers and costumed holymen. Of course you would want me to shut up and say nothing. jesus himself said most are on the road to destruction. May I be allowed to repeat it? It seems your revered costumed holymen are being exposed right and left, and all around. Its getting harder to claim that its just a few renegades.
Its your choice… follow a wicked priestcraft or ask Jesus to show himself. Time is running out.
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