Our resident representative of a certain strand of American evangelical thinking, Bosco, has, as regular readers will know, a number of themes. They are quite limited ones, and it is quite possible he is immune to reason on them, but since they are very common ones, and thus represent a deficiency in a certain line of thinking about Scripture, it might be worth running a short series on them.
This particular style of Protestant apologetics involves, at base, a problem which its adherents seem unable to address. It involves quoting the Bible, in this case Matthew 23:9, and assuming that the source from which the Bible comes was unable to read or understand it; arrogance is a sin. Let me explain. The Bible was not dictated by God to any one. The Bible does not tell us of its existence, nor yet of its contents. We know of it because the earliest followers of Christ were inspired to write and preserve the various books of the New Testament, and it was the early Church which tells us what is in it, not the Bible itself. Those early Christians who were willing to die for their Bible, called their priests ‘abba’ – or father. Now, either those early Christians understood less of the book they preserved than modern Western men – a premiss which only arrogance could support – or Western men have misunderstood something? Hard though it is to convince some modern men that they may not know everything, that seems the inescapable conclusion here.
It might, of course, be that Jesus intended us not to call our male parent, ‘father’, but again, we see no evidence of that throughout the centuries when Christianity was the settled religion, in both Protestant and Catholic countries; it was, and remains, the fashion to call one’s male parent ‘father’. Are we really to assume that everyone who calls their Dad ‘father’ is going against the words of Jesus? Were that actually the case, one might ask a question – if no one called their male parent ‘father’, how would we understand why Jesus calls God ‘Father’? If we had no concept of what that word meant, how would we make sense of it?
Much of the problem disappears if one abandons the Bosco method, which takes one verse and pits it against the sense of the rest of Scripture. After all, read that way, a sect which worshipped Jesus as an actual door could quote Scripture and accuse those of refused to worship the door as heretics. If we do what Christians have always done, and read the text in context we see that Jesus is not forbidding anyone to call their father ‘father’, we see, instead, a lesson about how Christians should be, one which, if adopted by us all, would be a good practice.
Jesus begins by saying his followers are not to call any man ‘Rabbi’, or teacher. On the hermeneutic of Bosco, that would mean we couldn’t call those who teach in school ‘teachers’. Because ‘teacher’ is not an exclusively Catholic usage, the Boscos of this world ignore it. At least, I have never, in the years he’s been here, seen him rail against anyone being called ‘teacher’. That, of course, sadly, reveals the real motive, which is anti-Catholicism. We see that Jesus’ followers here, as with the words about ‘father’ understood what he meant in a way those who follow Him through their reading of the book fail to; texts needs interpreting, and, aware of that, we see the first Christian, appointed ‘teachers’. Paul tells us he was appointed as a ‘teacher’ by God, as he tells the Corinthians that God appointed ‘teachers’ in his Church.
Jesus is not, then, being literal here, any more than he is when he tells us to pluck out our right eye – and again, perhaps because there is no anti-Catholic mileage to be had from arguing the verses, Bosco and company do not harp on about it, but read it, as it is meant to be read, as an example of hyperbole – that is linguistic exaggeration to make a point. The point is clear to those whose vision is not occluded by their prejudice. God, alone is our master, father and teacher, and he operates not through our own personal authority, but through those appointed by the Church as ‘teachers’ and spiritual fathers and masters. Such a message cuts across the fundamental Protestant view that we are our own teacher and master, because we can, all alone, divine from the text what the Father is telling us. This is not a view supported by Scripture and Tradition, but it is one which appeals to the vanity of man.
A much more telling criticism could be made, if those making the wrong one could refrain, for a moment, from their prejudice, and indeed, since it would appeal to that prejudice, it surprises me it is not made. Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees for having the letter of the Law but not its spirit, and for putting unnecessary burdens on the faithful whilst living in pretty high style themselves. There have certainly been times when the Church has done these things, and to criticise it for using the word ‘father’ instead, is to swallow camel whilst straining at a gnat.
But of course, if Bosco insists on the literal reading of one verse out of context, we shall commiserate with him when he rips out his right eye.
Problem isn’t calling dad “father”, it’s calling a priest “father”.
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But Bosco is right, Jesus does not say ‘call no priest/Pharisee’ father, he says call no man father.
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Then Paul and Peter were both wrong and great sinners. They each spoke of being both teachers and fathers to their flock. They were priests . . . offering the eucharistic sacrifice as seen in 1 Corinthians.
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Sure, Paul refered to himself as a father to Christians. But he didn’t tell anyone to call him father. Jesus didn’t like the name Rabbi. it means more than teacher. It means a religious leader. Some jews, as do some Christians, love religious titles. its prideful and wrong. because we are all the same. Good brother Carl is the closest. Jesus was being troubled by the costume holymen when he told his listeners not to call men Father. Well, the CC likes to do everything Jesus said not to do, so, they mandate that is flock call all their costumes Father. All this while they are kneeling befor a statue while repeating prayer.
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No it means teacher Bosco. Torn that eye out yet? If not, why not? jesus says to do it.
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There are teachers of grade schools and colleges. The teachers aren’t called rabbi, unless they are a rabbi. These costumes that you defend calling fathers are a sad bunch of assorted criminals. But, you are duty bound to defend them. After all, they dish out god to you, When they aren’t running drugs or laundering mafia money. Are they your father? Why do you call them Father? Who did they father? We know who Marciel fathered….plenty of kids, who he molested…the head of the Legionaire of Christ, a big respected sect of the CC. You got a bigger prob. You have a man with infirmities that you call the Holy Father. isn’t that the name of god?
My eye doesn’t offend me enough to loose salvation. if it did, I would tear it out.
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So, you can’t answer the points I raise. Fair enough, but if you can’t, stop making points which the post refutes.
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Here’s an imagination conversation which I think applies:
Tom says, “Hello, my name is Tom and I’m your doctor.”
Patient says, “Oh, hello Doctor!”
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Very good Grandpa! Short, sweet and on target! I might use this one myself some day, if you don’t mind. Pure logic. Thanks! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Very apt, especially since doctor means teacher. I wonder if Bosco calls his doctor, doctor.
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I refer to them by their name.
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SERV Then Paul and Peter were both wrong and great sinners. They each spoke of being both teachers and fathers to their flock. They were priests .
Probably Catholic priests, right? I doubt they considered themselves such. Besides priests were pagan titles.
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If they were not considered pagans among the Jews, which they were, it would not be considered pagan among the Christians. You are right: they did not ‘call’ themselves Catholic; they only called themselves members of the Church. Catholic (meaning universal) came about a few generations later.
Offering the Body and Blood of the Lamb during the Breaking of the Bread (the first Liturgy) was certainly the actions of a priest in both the New Testament and the Old Testament Church. Only a priest could pour out the blood of a victim as was done at the Lord’s Supper which they continued to practice. They enlisted ‘elders’ which is a word synonymous with presbyter or priest. They performed priestly functions: offering up sacrifice for the sins of the people. See Hebrews.
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I doubt they considered themselves priest which up to that time was a pagan office.
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They knew their priestly office did not include the offerings of a bloody sacrifice but of an unbloody sacrifice. Remember, only priests offered the sacrifices of bread and wine in the OT as well. All of these things were known to be in the office of a priest.
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Also consider this writing from the Didache written within 40 years of Christ’s death:
The Didache
“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
NOTE the word SACRIFICE.
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“The Bible does not tell us of its existence”, I think a Protestant would take exception to this claim if not the claim that Scripture doesn’t tell us which books are part of it and which aren’t. (e.g. Jn. 10:35; 2 Tim. 3:16)
“Sola Ecclesia”, Hays vs. Blosser (http://triablogue.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/sola-ecclesia.html), has quite a long section summarizing the work of Catholic and Protestant scholars on this topic. I’m not sure you’d comfortably read it, C, but you might find it helpful as a bridge to a non-Bosco approach to anti-Catholicism.
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Thanks Nicholas – I shall look it up. What I mean, of course, is not that it does not speak of ‘scripture’, but that we are not told there will be 27 books bound together called a Bible.
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Ah, okay, that I am more comfortable with. There were of course different collections circulating the early Church, which is one of the arguments in favour of Paul as the author of Hebrews.
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Indeed. And, of course, the earliest codices contain books we don’t regard as canonical.
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Nicholas, I stopped reading Blosser right after his opening: where he states that if a layman can make a case for the magisterium, he has no need for a magisterium.
That would be like saying that if a citizen can make a case for civil authority, he has no need for civil authority. In which case we have no authority other than our individual selves and thereby anarchy at its worst.
Since that was non-sensical to me, I quit reading. Perhaps he makes better arguments latter???
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Ah, you mean Hays – it does get confusing going back and forth between them. In short answer, yes, Hays makes better arguments later. Anyway, the point is that this document presents a reasoned Protestant response to many of the arguments or ideas that crop up here – arguments that are far more reasoned than those Bosco produces (as a general rule).
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It might make a good series of posts then. Perhaps you could present a synopsis of major points and present 2 or 3 in a post and let the Catholics reply to them etc. Might be interesting???
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I’d be very much in favour of that.
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I would as well. I much preferred well-reasoned Protestant arguments that the type we are used to hearing from Bosco. 🙂
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I’m also thinking of publishing a draft post I wrote ages ago which is basically quotations from St Jerome in English translation to present his views on the End – but it needs a final paragraph.
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I prefer the posts on apologetics personally as no matter what views we get on end times: only the Father knows for sure. It just has little interest for me: as my own end time is plenty enough for me to worry about and to prepare for.
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Surely, it can be done respectfully. Struans was a master at it.
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That certainly is true. I also think it might touch upon some things C mentioned in his Reading the Bible series, since hermeneutics lie at the heart of some of the major disagreements.
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I don’t think this would lead to any undue asperity 😊
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Well, you’re the Castle-keeper now. Cathedra tua, regula tua.
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I’d look forward to something from you on this. As Servus said, we need something to show how thoughtful the Protestant side can be, and without Geoffrey, Struans and Jessica, we are very light here.
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But Servus, we don’t. We are sovereign, all civil power is ours, delegated to the civil authorities, that we created.
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Is there any country that is without civil authority that you must abide by or thereby face the music? Our included? That is reason for government – to prevent anarchy. I know that we have an individual say (as do lay Catholics) but once the supreme court or congress or the magisterium pronounces something or passes a law, we are all obliged to live within the confines of those laws – like it or not. Otherwise we have a.) revolution, b.) counter-revolution, or c.) total anarchy.
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No, Augustine and martin Luther King both said that an unjust law is no law, with the proviso that we must be willing to pay the price that the authorities may impose on us for breaking it. see also, “The Letter from a Birmingham Jail. By definition, those people are either fools, or martyrs. I’d guess that Ghandi also said thing on point.
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First, sorry for this long reply but it will clarify my meaning, NEO.
There is no civilization without law and order. It is either at war or in complete chaos.
As to the Church: Christ gave us a Theocracy and not a democracy or a form of anarchy. An insert of something I wrote that Fulton Sheen spoke of in one of his lectures:
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
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Yes, and I suspect that at the time the Bible was compiled, St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch. I’m not going to have this argument again Servus, it serves no point. Rome took unto itself powers that were not delegated to it, and when the reform movement came along, building on the best of the Fathers of the faith, they went to war to preserve their worldly gains, until better men came into those offices. But much of the damage to Christendom was done and may, or may not, be repairable. I’ll admit that it is a shame that Rome is in schism from so many Christians but they made that choice.
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If quoting the binding and loosing given to Peter is an argument then I will abide by what Christ said, period. We need not further the argument here – after all, it is Lent.
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It was, and nowhere that I recall does it say St. Peter and his successors for ever an ever. But you’re right, it’s Lent, and this argument has been ongoing since at least Chalcedon, so we might as well hold it abeyance.
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the subject of that little talk was “whom do men say I am”. The answer Peter gave was that Jesus is the son of god. That is the Rock the church is built on. Jesus has always been the Rock. No man is the4 rock. But im convinced that the CC is built on a man. That’s obvious.
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Wrong. Christ established a post or an office, the chair of which was occupied first by Peter. The promises are given to the office and whoever holds that office. Was Christ so inept that He was unable to find a way to preserve a Church and its leadership so that we would not be left orphaned? I think He established the best possible Church and His guarantees are true. People may fail Him and thus, the Church but the Church will not fail Him.
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Good that’s what we keep telling you, finally you admit it.
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Hello Neo. No Rome didn’t “take any powers onto itself.” The Biblical passage SF just cited shows Christ giving the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter, His newly named “Prime Minister” to dispose of the new laws and regulations in the future Church which was to be built by God Himself upon Peter’s shoulders. The Prophecy about this is found in Isaiah 22:21-22 – I will clothe him with your robe, gird him with your sash, confer on him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; what he opens, no one will shut, what he shuts, no one will open. These powers were given freely by Christ to Peter, the Prince among the Apostles. It is still residing with the Chair of Saint Peter currently occupied by Francis, our current Holy Father. And BTW, the Scripture prophecy about him found in Isaiah also supports the notion of an actual spiritual fatherhood and its acknowledgement by men as a fulfillment of prophecy, which makes it doubly right to do. It says that God willed us to do so long before the actual doing of it and that it comes from the mind of God to do so. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. Are you paying attention Bosco?
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Ginny the trasonservus and I don’t have that fight is simple. Nobody wins. I read it as a personal grant, Servus reads it as you do. By the Way, so does Chalcedon, it the overt reason he crossed the Tiber. I don’t and won’t. As long time readers here, I quite happy to give him primacy of place as Patriarch of the West but not this claim. Very similar to the way the Orthodox viewed/view Constantinople, I’d guess. And the Church of the East, never acknowledged anybody in the west, let alone Persia’s arch enemy Rome.
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yes good sister ginny, im paying attention. Isaiah was referring to Christ. The whole OT points to Christ.
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Hello Bosco. No the Prophecy isn’t about God giving Himself authority, because He doesn’t need to give something to Himself He already has. Nonsense. It is a conferral of that divine authority to a human being, St. Peter. Moses has a similar authority given him by God and that was honored by the Israelites as coming from God. In Peter this authority is magnified to a newer and deeper level. No, Bosco the Israelites had it right in obeying Moses as if obeying God as do we as Catholic in obeying the Pope as obeying God and it is a great gift to be able to do so. One I treasure. I wish you could end you lifetime of guessing games and denial so you to could plant you feet upon the Rock, Peter and rest a while knowing your personal vindication is at hand. It gives one a share of the peace Christ spoke of. You deprive your own self of this magnificent gift of God. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ill let you rest on a man. By the way, jesus said….all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. is that god giving himself power? You need to read what you rite befor hitting post. Or wont that matter?.jesus told Mary to not to tough him because he wasn’t glorified yet. Oh, God wasn’t glorified yet?
You can rest on Peter the Infirm all you want. But heres some friendly advice. if you drop your wallet in a catholic church, kick it down the street to the prot church and then bend over and pick it up.
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Sorry. That was the scripture. Read the first paragraph of this: https://servusfidelis.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/catholicism-the-reason-for-my-hope-part-iii/
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Hello Nicholas. Thanks for the link. I’ll have to take my time there but it looks fun. Not much more time for this stuff today. I’ve got two homework assignments to take care of first. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well, don’t feel compelled to read it, Ginny. I don’t know whether you personally will find it edifying or whether it will be very provocative. Both Blosser and Hays use stern and, at times, accusatory-sounding language. I merely cite it here to make the point that there are real, logical Protestant objections to the claims made here and elsewhere by Catholic apologists. You can’t compare the kind of statements NEO, Rob, Geoffrey or I make with those made by Bosco or those made by Hays. We each have our different rhetorical styles and our own personal experiences we bring to our rejection of Roman Catholicism.
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I question as to whether Bosco has even ever had secular teachers. He seems to possess at minimum, an high school education on the liberal studies. He does not seem well-educated in the least bit unless his Biblical education has come from Wheaton College or Moodby Bible Institute or Bob Jones University.
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Aaaahahahahahaha.
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Yippie! Hurrah! Go Team!!!!! Very nice post Chalcedon. You’ve out done me. But will Bosco bite? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yeah…Go team!!!Whats the name of your team? may I make a suggestion?
Go team Torquemada..rah rah rah
or maybe team Marciel. he had enough kids to man a football team.
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It’s the team Jesus led. Time to join it, Bosco.
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The Bible was not dictated by God to any one
Most of Isaiah and Jeremiah is god talking directly. I guess they were kinda making that up.
I guess Moses wrote genesis from reading newspapers from the time.
No wonder. The CCs official position on the bible is that it is a “dead letter”
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none of the NT is dictated.
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The first 3 chapters of revelations? Who is that speaking?
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Revelation is an allegory, not a dictation.
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Ah, bravo. I guess this is catholic teaching. That makes it easier to explain to the children as to why none of the 7 churches are in Rome. Revelations is just allegory. 7 hills doesn’t mean 7 hills and gold cups don’t mean gold cups and purple and scarlet don’t mean purple and scarlet.
I understand that the official CC line is that all the bad things in Rev have already happned. That there is no need for alarm. everything is fine. No boils or locust with lions teeth.
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There were more than seven churches by that time Bosco. When you really have the Spirit, these things will be explained to you. Until then, the spirit which guides you will mislead you.
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Jesus has 7 spirits up in heaven and 7 stars in his hand. You mean he added one star after Rev was written? Jesus knows the future. How come he didn’t know that and tell us? Maybe he forgot. He has 7 candle sticks. You mean he has 8 now, but forgot to tell us?
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Poor Bosco. If you read an allegory literally, you will end up as you have, making no sense.
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if you say so my friend.
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Hello Bosco. St. John is writing directly to the 7 churches he started on his own from his place of exile, Patmos. Revelation 1:9 states: “I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation… was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” His letters to them were an extension of his spiritual fatherhood to them and were sent to them for reading during the Breaking of the Bread among the Brothers as they met on the Lord’s Day to celebrate His Resurrection. It was his way of continuing his nurturance and guidance of them as their Father in the Lord. The Book of Revelation is unique in style and form and makes use of all four sense of Scripture, so be careful in using it Bosco and keep in mind the curses at the end of it listed as warning to those who attempt to distort its prophetic message. They still apply and the wise abide by them. And by extension, this warning also applies to all of the Books of the Bible. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dear Bosco,

Please let us know when you see these two people around together (not actually people, one’s a woman and the other’s a beast–that came out wrong–one is not actually a person):
Sorry, but the Catholic Church looks nothing like that!
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I understand that the woman is both the catholic church and the protestant world combined. the catholic church being the mother of the protestant churches.
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BOSCO! She’s JUST a woman and she’s riding a LITERAL, SEVEN-HEADED BEAST! With the rise of bestiality and mutant creatures nowadays, that prophecy is about to come true–I KNOW IT! I take Revelation–ALL OF IT–LITERALLY!
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We all Know God is the Author behind all of Scripture Bosco, yet never do you hear Jesus saying “write this.” No where in Scripture does it depict Gdo giving dictation. At the time a man’s word spoken was considered more binding and trust worthy than those written on paper. But this isn’t what this thread is about, so I’ll stop. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hi Ginny, just a note amongst men such as those here it still is, and always will be. It’s one of the causes of the West’s decline that it no longer so generally. It’s not even completely Christian, Cincinnatus offers a very good example.
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7 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Good sister ginny, you must have been a gymnast in high school, because you can easily get your foot in your mouth.
I think that’s kinda sexy.
never do you hear Jesus saying “write this.”
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You’re very observant Bosco, but may I point out to you that the vision of John that is written as the Book of revelation was written after Jesus Ascended into Heaven, so it really is accurate to say Jesus never sat the disciples down and gave dictation saying “write this down.” It is the truth. Nice try though. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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7 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me
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Oh, that’s rite, there are more candlesticks now, according Roman Papists. that reminds me of the Hebrews. According to their tradition, a rabbi, or a bal shem tobe , has to be on earth at all times or the end will come. So, they say, since scripture says 8 enterd the ark, a bal shem tobe clung on to the roof of the ark, that way it justifies there being a chosen one on earth at all times. I think of that when cathols come up with all kinds of crazy stuff.
Oh, jesus was mistaken, he forgot the church at Rome. Oh, uh, that’s rite….it was just allegory, that’s it….allegory. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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All revelation is either mediate or immediate. When someone has God speak to them they receive immediate revelation. When they tell someone else what God spoke, those other people are receiving mediate revelation. You must trust your source and have guarantees for being able to trust them; for everything that we have received from the scriptures is mediate revelation. As soon as scripture is written and then translated by man it is mediate revelation and not technically, God speaking directly. He speaks through them to us in a mediated fashion. Best be able to trust your Bible, the books in it, the writers, the translators and the preachers and theologians. Otherwise, there is no telling what these words might get twisted into.
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My spirit bears witness to the King james.
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Is it the old KJV or a newer one where they fixed all the errors?
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Its the old KJV. Any errors aren’t noticeable. And they really aren’t errors. the plan of salvation is clear as a bell. Your catholic book took out the second commandment, because little kiddies were asking too many questions. yeah, so just yank it out. Now kiddies, you can get back to bowning and scraping befor those graven images. MMMuUUUHHHhahahahahahahahahahahaha. I Satan command you.
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So the bit about being saved by faith alone is OK with you along with the other 150 some odd passages that Protestant Bible Scholars identified aren’t important to you? That’s good. I’m glad you found a version that gives you comfort.
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OH Bosco! I’m so glad you agree that God is speaking directly in the prophetic books you mention. Keep that in mind you little beastie when you read what I wrote regarding the Prophecy about St. Peter found in Isaiah 22: 21-22. Might it mean a few things you’d rather not admit of regarding Peter, the Papacy, the Church that God builds and the source of it’s Authority as well as the Tradition of calling men Father? Gee all that in the Prophetic works of Isaiah and Poor Bosco admitting openly that he KNOWS IT IS GOD TALKING IN SAID BOOKS. Ooooppss. Wanna take that back Bosco? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Seems like the Lord talking. He does a lot of that in isaiah
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In 1 Corinthians 4:14-17, Paul writes:
14 I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. (NIV)
Here are my thoughts for what they are worth: the Bible is not a simplistic text because human experience is not simplistic. Our minds do not operate in a linear fashion, ie always neatly progressing from one tidy thought to the next in a logical sequential manner. We are fraught with emotions and desires and needs and bodily drives. We are capable of insight and flashes of wisdom and mediocrity and depraved cruelty and altruistic magnanimity. We are highly complex beings, and in that context, Jesus speaks to us in the moment, speaking in parables and riddles that address our mood, our needs, our desires, our sinfulness in the very moment of reading or hearing the scriptures. He is here with us now, talking to us now, leading us now, calling to us now, teaching us now. What he might choose to teach us tomorrow will be something quite different, as we will be beset with a different mood, different desires, etc tomorrow.
When Jesus said, “Call no man father” he was addressing a particular need at that particular moment, speaking out against empty “piety” with no real faith. Jesus speaks in the moment, ministering to particular needs in the moment (he did that then, he does that now). Paul, in the scripture passage above, is speaking as a teacher IN Christ, not as his sinful former self. Therefore, we are urged to imitate Paul as we might imitate our earthly father. “For IN JESUS I became your father through the gospel.” Yes, we have spiritual fathers and earthly fathers, it is foolish to deny this basic fact of human existence. Our earthly fathers teach us how to make our way in the world. Our spiritual fathers teach us to follow Jesus and how to develop our spiritual gifts. Paul speaks of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
Apologies for rambling on, I only hope that something I wrote makes some sense.
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tell us all how paul told Christians to address him as Father.
So, jesus was just addressing a need at that time. So we can disregard his statement.
Let me guess ….You must be catholic
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Poor Bosco. He isn’t. Try answering the points in the post – break the habit of a lifetime.
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he nullifies the Words of Jesus, just like the cathols do. He might as well be a cathol.
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Have you torn you eye out yet? If not, why not?
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No, he hasn’t but rumor has it the Inquistors would like to remove his little red nosey by twisting it in various directions. Oh dear! Oh my!
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I am a Christian who loves the Lord and his Word. I allow the Spirit to speak to me when I read or hear Scripture.
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What he might choose to teach us tomorrow will be something quite different, as we will be beset with a different mood, different desires, etc tomorrow.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
So, the eternal God will change his mind because of human fads.
Interesting.
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I think you are misreading our friend, Zeke. He doesn’t mean Jesus teaches us something one day and then teaches something contradictory tomorrow. He means Jesus teaches us different points of faith etc. at different times in our lives: e.g. 2Once Saved, Always Saved” on Monday, and “Rapture of the Church” on Tuesday. We don’t understand all of God’s Word in a sudden burst.
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If you say so my brother
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Yes, thank you. Jesus teaches Truth, we all know that, and it does not change. He needs to spoon feed us a little at a time. That is all I meant.
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We have the OT and the NT. We can read it every day. How does he spoon feed us? Everything is there for all to see.
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How does he “spoon feed us?” Bosco askes? Ginnyfree goes EUREKA! and seizes the day by saying; Why in the Blessed Sacrament you silly clown! In the Eucharist, Jesus Himself comes to us, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and His Word is made Flesh, none other than His Divine Flesh upon which we dine and His Word becomes one with us in this most intimate of unions. He speaks to our souls at this time, Bosco and builds Himself in us. For we dine on the true food of His own Body and Blood and in so doing, we have Life in us, the very Life He gives. He dwells in us in a singular way thusly. Oh Bosco, you should have this life too. All should. He died to give it to you. Only you refuse Him entrance. His Words are made Flesh, and as Scripture says most Prophetically, He dwells among us for He did come as Emmanuel, God is with us, as that particular name means. Get it Bosco? Easy as apple pie! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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oh yeah, the Real presence. Come one come all. Step rite up and get a piece of god. No cutting in line please. Hurry hurry hurry, step rite up and get saved. Please no pushing. Please put cigarette butts in the trays.
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Who said ‘this is my body, which is given for you’? Do you not see, you constantly have to spin the meaning? The father of lies is working overtime.
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I can only read small portions of the Bible at a time and I let the words speak to me, I do not read it with preconceived notions of what it does or does not say. The main point is no one reads the Bible in its entirety in a day, we read bits and let those words work on us, or better said, let those words nourish us.
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After I was born again, I had most of the bible memorized in about a month. Most of the NT that is.
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Bosco, you shouldn’t have admitted this. You agreeing with Catholic teachings. Be careful! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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That is an excellent comment, with which I heartily agree.
Well done.
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Thank you very much.
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Not at all. I was especially touched by your emphasis on the point that Jesus is with us now – “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.” Like the hymn, “The King is among us; His presence is here…”
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Yes, there are many beautiful passages in the Bible about our adoption as sons and daughters of God that deeply move me and it is certainly reassuring that we will not be left as orphans. God promises to come to us, that sounds very much in the present, doesn’t it. I am also fond of 1 Samuel 3 where God calls to Samuel and Samuel replies “here I am” and “speak, your servant is listening.” Samuel was “in the moment” with an open heart and mind for God.
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Oh Grandpa Zeke! How marvelous. Very good. Thank you. Go team!!!! Rah Rah Rah! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Thank you Ginnyfree 😉
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that the source from which the Bible comes
The source is the Holy Ghost.
Cathols love to think the wonderful CC gave us the bible. But then they did everything in its power to keep it out of our hands. They put it on their list of banned books. No better than the ISIS rabble who just burned books, the CC burned a lot of books too. Both are bloodthirsty cults.
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Again, untrue. Jesus founded a church, guided by the Spirit, it told us what books were in the Bible. On your reading the spirit forgot to say how to read it? Not very likely, is it?
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The spirit teaches the saved all things as promised in the NT. Of course, the CC has claimed that it has the holy ghost on a leash. That its gay cabal, oops, I mean magisterium, only knows what the bible means. the state religion of Rome is where god works thru.
Great swelling claims.
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Quite clearly the Spirit led the Church Christ founded to know Scripture; that being so, you must admit that the Spirit teaches the same Church how to read it.
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You forgot to deny that the CC burned books.
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The CC burned bad copies. You forgot to answer the points in the post.
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I answerd the point. You spent a lot of words to muddy the water. You have to justify calling wicked men Father. You have to or you are excommunicated if you don’t. You think im lost because I take it for face value. Its not the end of the world. When one is born again, these things will come to make sense. Now, the csarnal man can only see what other carnal men do and think. Scripture means nothing to the unsaved. the traditions of men are all they esteem.
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No, you have done what you always do, concentrated on the bad apples. Are you fine with us calling good men ‘Father’?
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It seems to people here that I get upset at what people do. Its not that im fine with this or that. I point out anti Christ practices. I don’t hate the sinner, I hate the sin. You can talk all day and nite….the bottom line is the CC tells its flock to call infirm men Father. And this is against Jesus advice. Its not an attack on the person….its exposing the practice of a false religion. The aim….to get my brothers to realize they are in a false religious system and seek the invisible god. All the time cathols come to realize they have been duped and get out. usually its the same time god does a work on them.
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Bosco, you’ve been shown a plenty that St. Paul himself refers to himself as a “Father” and yet refuse to acknowledge him doing so. Why is this? It is Scripture and if you do as the Scripture says, then why don’t you do this one? If your right hand causes you to sin cut if off……etc………….. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hitler burned bad copies, ISIS is now as we speak burning bad copies. Does anyone see the similarities? CC…Nazis…Islam. All three killed those who opposed it. Same modus operendi, just different names. Satan is the head of prot churches , but his masterpiece is the CC. Weve all seen this new throne room in the Vatican. There is no longer any doubt. Even the vaticans observatory in Arizona is called Lucifer.
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No, Hitler burnt all types of book.
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And ISIS is simply iconoclastic with a yen to return to the seventh century with them in charge. Churchill said something about a new dark age made worse and extended by the technology we in the west have invented, I believe.
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Hitler considered them bad. ISIS considered them bad. The CC was just simply wild eyed with satanic power. The books it burned were priceless.Its a barbaric cult staffed with out of control maniacs.
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No, the only books burnt were those bad translations which put souls in peril. I can see that would suit the Father of Lies.
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Oh, well why didn’t you say so. the magnanimous CC didn’t want mens souls in peril. Oh, how nice of them. Uh, then why did they burn and torture people? Was this for their own good?
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Bosco, referencing Scot McKnight’s The Blue Parakeet won’t help you. It’s Biblical and historical scholarship is very minimal.
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never heard of the Blue Parrot. is that next door to the nite club you frequent…The Flaming Parrot?
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It’s a damnable book in the arena of Protestant Evangelical scholarship that tells lie after lie after damnable lie.
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The Pink Flamingo in Buffalo, New York is quite a hot blue collar joint.
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Two issues here, to address a man as father is simply to accord him respect, i.e. he is qualified to (we think) to lead us like our human father did, in our faith. The title itself doesn’t matter, I think. Most Protestant churches did away with the Priestly office shortly after the Reformation, in favor of the universal priesthood, which Rome has also come to accept. Rome and Canterbury still have priests, and the title considered proper and meet by their churches is Father. I can’t see the problem with the honorific. Would i address a Lutheran clergyman as father? No, he is addressed as Reverend, Pastor and several other variants, all of which mean much the same in common usage.
The Bible was without doubt compiled by the early church. I cannot in honesty say by the Catholic Church, it was compiled in the period before Rome claimed exclusivity as the Catholic Church, it makes as much sense to claim it was compiled by the Coptic Church which is older than Rome. Still it was not dictated by God, in any of his three beings, it is an anthology of works by men who were inspired by God, and whose work was considered, and is considered, to be right.
If one wants a book that was supposedly dictated by God. Himself, one needs to look to the heretical sect of Islam.
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Right on, music meister. Now that’s the kind of brownie I like to eat.
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Danke schoen 🙂
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If there is an interest, I might publish what I have written on the inspiration of Scripture for a doctrinal form I had to fill out last year.
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Bosco, has, as regular readers will know, a number of themes. They are quite limited ones, and it is quite possible he is immune to reason on them
Its like looking at you hand again when someone bets. You look to see if they have changed. I look again at scripture, it doesn’t change. If Jesus said not to call men father , I wont. But we refer to men as father of this or that, but we don’t address them as Father.. That is a hard saying. its aimed at religious leadres. So what does the antichrist CC do? It calls all its holymen Father. Poor cathols are now hard pressed to explain it away to outsiders. Good sister ginny lets it all ride with the statement that Jesus meant for us not to consider men as gods. She must have got that boner from Catholicanswers.com. the bastion of objectivity, which has banned me 3 times.
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Jesus said to pluck out your eye – why don’t you do so? Because you know he didn’t mean it literally – ditto here.
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Wow! 3 times! Impressive. You bad little beastie. 👿
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I can get in if im at a new location with a new IP address. Where im at now ive never been in CA, so they don’t know this one. I can get in again, but im bored of their brand of BS. been there done that.
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arrogance is a sin
Arrogance is saying some organization is responsible for giving us the Word of God.
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No, not when it is a fact that it did. The facts are against you.
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Funny, I though god gave us his word. uh, will you thank the CC for me?
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No, God founded a Church and guided it to know Scripture.
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I hope so good brother. Your soul is in the rite place. come on, get born again. cant wait to talk to you as a believer.
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It might, of course, be that Jesus intended us not to call our male parent, ‘father’
Uh, try calling costume holymen father. that is the context Jesus was talking in. You know this but downplay it.
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No, Jesus does not say that – he says call no man father. You need to put your own spin on it, and yet the Church guided by the Spirit says otherwise.
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I guess that’s why the CC has Fathers by the truckload. because Jesus said not to.
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The post explains it Bosco, read it again.
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I read it 3 times. Its not the end of the world my friend. Hope to see you born again soon.
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As you don’t understand what that means, you won’t spot it; I hope you get there in the end.
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Hello Bosco. jesus couldn’t have meant to no longer call men who had children father, either by observers or by their children simply because He’d then be asking folks to break the Commandment to honor one’s own father and mother. Speaking to one’s parents in a respectful way is part of keeping this Commandment. Surely you aren’t saying God now wills this to be ignored or broken do you? No. It cannot be because Jesus Himself said He hadn’t come to eliminate the Law but to fulfill them and behold He has done just that, made all things new in Himself. You can’t see that because you have to eliminate any Law that points to Catholic teaching as not only correct, but authoritative and binding. Mental gymnastics that keep you denying Christ’s very Mission. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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catholic teaching. Tell that to your costume holymen.
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If we do what Christians have always done, and read the text in context
is that why cathols only quote…I will build my church on this rock, and never quote what came befor. Good brother Servus, for some reason, quoted the whole passage today. First time ive seen it done, by a cathol.
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We do, Bosco. We also understand what Kephas means – it means Rock. Jesus tells Simon he is Kephas – the Rock. Yet again, you have to spin the facts.
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Christ has always been the Rock. That’s been my experience. I don’t see a man being the Rock, no matter if your name is Rock, like Chris Rock or “”the Rock”
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Jesus said it – but you deny him.
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See if this helps Bosco. I hope so.
Click to access argument-for-the-authority-of-the-church-and-the-chair-of-peter-and-why-one-needs-to-remain-in-her.pdf
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“The Church has a Holy Office which is occupied by the chosen leader;
he who occupies the chair of Peter. The mediate authority therefore, is to the
office and not simply to the man. We see this in the appointment of other
apostles and priests by the original 11 (Judas having died – and quickly
replaced). In the OT we see the same with Moses choosing Joshua to replace
him.”
Ok, so where are the other 11 apostles, since they all passed the baton?
The Mormons have all 12. All the Cc got is one lousy apostle.
The Holy Office. say, didn’t that Holy Office oversee torturing and burning of bible believers? Oh yeah, they renamed it because the word had gotten out about what it used to do. That way people could forget. But I haven’t and neither will I let cathols forget.Those who died unmentionable deaths at the Holy offices hands need to be rememberd.
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Well we have grown much larger than 12 could possibly handle. we have over 4000 sees that are headed by bishops – which are, in fact, our present day apostles.
Best move to Outer Mongolia since the US did a bunch of bad stuff too, Bosco. Have a nice trip.
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Oh yeah. Don’t get me started on what the US has done to people. but its not a religion where I hang my salvation on. Its just a bunch of thugs who control the police who force you to give the politicians our money. The CC is a club that one doent have to go anywhere or do anything to get out of. just stop believing it and giving it your money and going to its temples. Drop it like a hot potato. But one also has to invite Jesus into their lives to be saved. each person is going to face god for what they did. there is no government. Its people. the govt wont stand trial….people will. im glad there is a hell. jesus doesn’t want me to be happy about people going there, but secretly I am. Sometimes I get sloppy and im not happy about it, then sometimes I cant wait for evil people to get there.
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Funny, but I trust the words of Christ more than I trust your opinions. Thanks anyway.
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Paul tells us he was appointed as a ‘teacher’ by God, as he tells the Corinthians that God appointed ‘teachers’ in his Church.
Enlighten us oh enlightened one. Show us where Paul told us to address them as Teacher.
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Ginny already did that.
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Ginny fumbled the ball. but shes a model cathol. She will stand up and proclaim that scripture doesn’t mean what it says, with the best of em.
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That is what you are doing. How’s the eye?
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I take scripture at face value.
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So why do you still have two eyes?
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Oh Ok, hold on while I go get a spoon and gouge my right eye out.
Ouch, ook eeeeek aayyyyeeeeeee
Are you happy now?
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You say you read it at face value,you just proved you don’t.
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Well Bosco, thanks for the compliment and coming from you it is a stretch. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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because we can, all alone, divine from the text what the Father is telling us.
Case in point….the carnal man cant see the things of the spirit. The Nt says that the spirit guides us in all knowledge. Us being the born again. These religious people cant understand that. But they understand men just fine.
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Yes, you keep showing us that the carnal man – you – can’t understand. The Church guided by the Spirit does. That Church told us what Scripture was and how to read it; you can do neither.
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Don’t keep me in suspense. How does one read the bible? Thanks in advance. (:-D
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We keep showing you, and you keep denying it.
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Thanks for nothing
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You’re welcome. 😄
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Jesus is upbraiding the Pharisees for having the letter of the Law but not its spirit, and for putting unnecessary burdens on the faithful whilst living in pretty high style themselves
You mean like catholic Archbishops? They bar thee way to salvation to sinners like gays and divorced while they live in splendorous mansions and parties every nite and servants and the best of foods. You mean something like that?
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Again, you spoil the kernel of a good point with misstatements. Please show us where the Church says that gay people all go to hell. If you can’t, be a man and apologise.
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And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I don’t know what the CC says, but I know its top heavy in gay priests. But I know what Paul says in Romans
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You told us the RCC said gays go to hell, now you say St Paul does. Do make your mind up.
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I said that the Bishops have orderd the costumes not to give the sacrememnts to the gay or divorced. isn’t that tantamount to withholding god from them?
All of that is BS anyway. The Cc doesn’t own heaven or god. if someone is gay, as long as they are alive, they can go to Christ for salvation. the CC and their brand of bull spittal is just a bad joke. jesus stands at your door. Hes not a cracker in a golden thingy. hes at your door knocking.
Im off the computer for awhile. Going to try my hand at making lemon wine.
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I see you don’t agree with Scripture at all, which is fair enough I guess, you only said you memorised it, not that you understood a dang word it says. The Apostles had presbyters (the word from which we derive priest), but you call then ‘costumes’, as befits a follower of the father of lies, who then inspires you to further half-truths. I am a divorced man and receive the sacraments every week, so there is clearly some defect in your understanding of what the Church teaches (now there’s a surprise); I have a friend who is gay who also receives the sacraments every week, so again, there is something you aren’t understanding. I shall let you do some homework, as if you do, you may understand why what you wrote here is wrong. And there you go again, calling Jesus a ‘cracker’.
Hope the lemon wine was better than it sounds.
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The news stories I read and post here say the CC doesn’t give the sacrements to gays and divorced. I wonderd how they woud know if you just wanderd into a Roman temple and no one knew you. Its the thought that counts. Why is the Holy Father bothering about gays and divorced if it wasn’t a problem?
I made some lemonade and the next morning it had fermented, rite in my glass. So I went online to see how to make wine. The lemons are from a tree across the street. The obviously had a lot of natural yeast. There are 4 kinds of lemons across the street. This is the first time I used this strain, because the ones I always pick were hard to get to. Within hrs my glass of lemonade started becoming bitter. Its a really big glass. Didn’t take me long to figure out it was being fermented.
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Which is why you need to do some work Bosco.
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Need to do some work? I don’t care about religions enough to work on them. they are nothing. nothing but air. What is there to work on? What men say about themselves? have you seen the canons? Volumes of nothing. laws of a religion. they even have canon lawyers. hasn’t the CC heard….they aren’t the force of law anymore. yeppers….no more burning and torturing opponents anymore. But it sends shivers down my spine when I hear of caon laws and catholic courts and catholic judges. People in earlier times heard these words as they were drug off never to be seen again, after their bodies were torn slowly apart to satisfy the satanic urges of the bishops and priestcraft.
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Well, if you can’t be bothered to find out facts you keep misrepresenting, I guess you’ll just have to keep on making a bit of a fool of yourself, which is a shame, but there you go.
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I waste enough time with chess. I had my fill of catholic mumbo jumbo in catholic answers. people accuse me of not knowing catholic lore. I got a facefull of it in CA, trust me. I don’t act like it because I don’t believe one word of it. I just present evidence of false beliefs and hope they sink in. Ive put my time in with the Mormons, the Jehovas, the Baptists the Nischren Shosu, the budhist and the athiests. Its up the the reaoers to bring in the harvest. Im a planter.
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The problem is that you present false information.
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Should we judge the seed you plant by its fruit?
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yes, judge the seed by what its fruit is.
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My seeds are this…jesus stands at the door and knocks. Open and he will come in and sup with you.
Any info I give should be subject to scrutiny. Check my so called facts…I insist. But jesus still stands at the door. That isn’t up for debate. Its Jesus own words, unless you just don’t believe scripture.
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Hello Bosco. Guess what? We are Christians here. We’ve already let Him in and that is the reason why you are tolerated as you have been, out of Christian charity. If you showed up at my friend’s bar though and spewed your garbage, he’d pull his baseball bat out from under the bar and point it to the door and tell you that’s where you can blaspheme all you want. He fears God and that’s why he’d be smart enough to send you packing. Call it Christian love for his other patrons. Really. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hello Bosco. You are a mess. Good scholarship has been offered you and you reject it and return like a sow to wallowing in your mire!
Bosco: “I don’t care about religions enough to work on them.”
Ginny: THAT is exactly your problem. You don’t care. You have no love in you because you constantly reject Him. The cost for all your cherry picking is you reject most everything else the Scriptures contain, yet you try to convince others that you live by them! This turns out to be a lie. And you do it all the time which leaves your heart cold and loveless. God is love and this is how we are known as His followers, by the love we have for one another. But you say you don’t care – an admission of a state of lovelessness. And that is because no matter who presents Him and His teaching to you, you reject Him. And to seal your fate, you return to the mire of blasphemy. You are sending yourself to Hell and yet you claim that you are out to “save” others! Yet it is clear to most rational folks that you are about the exact opposite. You are all about going to Hell, and you want to rip others from the bosom of the Church and drag them along with you as you help them reject all that Christ has built in His Church. Sorry for being so hard on you Bosco, but your blasphemies are tedious to bare and I don’t have the patience that the men here have. My own fault. Mea culpa. Forgive me.
One question: Why do you reject the simple and clear scholarship offered when it explains the very Scriptures you claim to revere?
God bless. Ginny free.
P.S. I will offer my Holy Communion for you again tomorrow.
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Oh, your good Christian friend has a bar? I bet you belly up to it a lot. Sounds like it.
A pedophile, a homosexual and a catholic priest walk into a bar. He orderd a beer.
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Hello Bosco. I will await your response to my use of the Prophecy of Isaiah about St. Peter which is fulfilled by Christ when He confers the Keys of the Kingdom upon Him, declares him the Rock foundation of His Church which He will build and with his doing so, gives His Authority to him and his successors in perpetuity. In denying the OT Prophecy and the NT fulfillment of it, you deny God in many ways at once. Good luck with that. God bless your poor soul. Ginnyfree.
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Jesus is the cornerstone and foundation of his church. this is made plain in the OT and NT. I don’t doubt that your beloved CC is built on a man. Successors. that’s funny. the chair of Peter has been bought and sold and killed for, has been vacant and has had 3 at once. Popes have been run out of town and killed by husbands of wives a pope was having an affair with. Succession of Popes. Haaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha. It look more like La Macarbre baille.
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For a fuller explanation of what Ginny is trying to convey to you, why don’t you spend about 15 minutes reading this excerpt from Scott Hahn about the Papacy. He goes into great detail about the prophecy in Isaiah.
Click to access on-the-papacy.pdf
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The danger for Bosco is that if he reads it he might see straight.
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Heaven forbid. 🙂
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It might be easier to see straight with only one eye. 😉
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In the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king ☺️
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“First of all, Jesus probably didn’t speak Greek when He was with the
disciples. I mean that is held by 99.9 percent of all scholars. ”
I used to think they spoke Aramaic. But Alexander had everyone speaking greek. Greek was spoken in Israel. The NT was written in greek, an exact language. When it says brother, it means brother. It was written in greek because they spoke greek. Scot Hahn is carnal. He doesn’t know the Lord, that’s why hes full of big words and theories and has to study this and that. And after all that hard study he winds up in a church full of graven images and costumes. Well, he still has time to get saved.
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Bosco, there is zero evidence Jesus spoke Greek. He may well have had a smattering of it, but he spoke Aramaic – and kephas is Aramaic for rock.
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The world Alexsander conquerd he made speak greek. There are also no renderings or pictures of Jesus, yet artists are always painting him, and graven images of him are all over the place, with the faithful on their knees befor them. A good fable never gets in the way of truth.
Why were the gospels and the rest written in greek? A; because they spoke greek.
This was recently brought to my attention. I used to think they spoke Aramaic.
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No, Alexander didn’t make people speak Greek, but the language was a common one in the region because of the influence of Greek trade and culture. If you had a proper Bible it would have in it books about the Maccabees who tried to make Judea Greek-speaking and the revolt against them. You would, then, know that the ordinary Jews didn’t speak Greek.
It may well be that Jesus had a little Greek and Latin, but we don’t know. The Gospels were in Greek because it was the common language outside Judea and among non-Jews.
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That’s nice, but Jews in Judea wrote the NT. Except for the letters which were written by jews that were traveling around. You admit we don’t know, but then you say you know. Catholicism turns a mans mind into a banana smoothie.
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The Jews who write were those who moved in the Greek-speaking
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That should have read Greek-Speaking world – Luke was a doctor and would have had to have known Greek; similarly with Matthew, the tax collector.
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Here’s what I know about the languages spoken at that time: Jews spoke Hebrew in their homes and at the Temple for worship, Greek in the marketplaces to do business, and Latin when conversing with the occupying enemy, the Romans. That’s how I learned it. And guess what? Jesus speaks every language under the sun know to man, fluently. So don’t quibble over languages. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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sister ginnyfree, I believe you are the closest to the truth. Yes, why quibble over language. God bless. Bosco the Great (:-D
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Yes sister ginny, I just noticed good brother Chalcedons admission of faithlessness. he thinks Jesus might have had a little greek knowledge. He doesn’t believe that jesus invented the different languages. That’s catholic thought for you. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
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So, when the Bible says he grew in wisdom, what does it mean?
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It means he grew in wisdom. He grew fast, because when he was a little kid, he taught math in a church to mathematicians. He was showing off. he was human you know. Still, the catholic church denies the power thereof, as a practice. for them, there is no rapturos, no new spirit, no knowing if one is saved and a reliance on a cracker and bad news every day of more malfeasance by their holymen.
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If you read my post on Romans 7 you will see why no real Christian has ever thought they were saved just because they were justified.
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Bosco, it will do you no good to attempt to sow seeds of division. Chalcedon is a man of faith, something you claim to be but which is in reality false. He has had a great deal of patience with you in trying to turn you from the way you are going. You should thank him and a few others here for their patience with you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I have. And ill do it again
Thank You good brother Chalcedon and Servus, for not banning me and putting up with my madness. I consider it a privilege to witness to you all.
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C, you and Servus couldn’t last a week (not answering Bosco). Well, it was a good idea. Looks like boredom took over.
In a completely unrelated matter, Ann Barnhardt states that Gregory of Narek should not become a Doctor of the Universal Church because of what the Church declared at the Council of Chalcedon in the year (you guessed it) 451. I’m wondering if you think she has a point or not?
http://www.barnhardt.biz/2015/02/24/the-first-commandment-is-first-for-a-reason/
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I think we were trying not to answer his points in asperity 🙂 Oh well!
Oh lor’, I read the Barnhardt piece and can only weep at the combination of ignorance and bigotry there. Of course they often go together. The Armenian Church was not, any more than then Coptic Church Monophysiye, and Miaphysite is not the same thing and is not condemned at Chalcedon The Armenians were not invited to any of the Councils, never subject to Rome, and if Ms B thinks that makes them heretics, then she is wrong. If you look back to the little series Jess did on the Church of the East, the situation is much the same with Armenia.
Churches existed independent of Rome, not founded by Rome and not in communion with it. Quite how that makes them heretics it takes someone with Ms B’s lack of knowledge to say 🙂
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C, I didn’t take the parallel nature of the Church’s to be her predominate point. That point being 600 years after C451 Gregory of Narek was wrong about the Nature of Christ. This muddies the water, since he will now be a Doctor of the Church. Does this matter? Ann seems to think so and you it seems failed to get that far.
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I was doing my best not to sound too obstreperous, Steve. 🙂
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You and C make me glad I keep the Google search tab open.
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An apposite response and sound praxis.
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My friends, lets take stock:
Jesus says:
Not to call anyman on earth Father
Not to vainly repeat prayer
Not to believe it when someone say “here is Christ”
God says:
Not to make or bow down befor the works of your hands
These things are the staple of the CC
Paul says that forbidding to marry is a doctrine of demons.
Yet these are the hallmarks of the CC. oh boy, do they have all kinds of reason why its Ok to do these things, and, reasons why doing these things are the most wonderful things to do. Then, cathols point their boney fingers at the prots and say they are invalid because they don’t do these things.
mans probation is almost up. Lines are drawn. if this is where you want to be when the bell rings, well, have at it. Or, you can open the door to Christ while he still knocks, because after the bell, there is no easy salvation.
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Let us take stock. Jesus says tear you eye out if it offend thee. You have admitted to lust, so why do you nit tear out your eye?
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Theres more commandments I break every day. id have to kill myself. A regular Joe cant help to see a pretty girl and think how pretty she is. I mentioned that to let everyone know that im not different you catholic idolaters. Im not better than them. I also am envious of the rich. Paul say: the god that I would do I do not and the evil that I would not do, that I do.
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So, you don’t read what Jesus said literally then – except when it suits you?
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I take it literal. If I thought my eye would keep me from salvation, or my arm, I would pluck it off. I know he meant it. I don’t believe its gotten that bad yet. I stand by anything I say. I believe face value the bible. I don’t repeat prayer thinking that much speaking god will hear me. I don’t call costumes father, I don’t bow befor the works of my hands. These are easy to follow. The tough ones are trying to control the mind.
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As with all the unsaved, you see the letter, follow it, but cannot go with the Spirit. If you come unto the Church you will understand – the unsaved are fooled by Satan – may God save you.
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That’s noble of you my friend. Seriously, would you want me next to you in the pews? When I take my girlfriend and her kids to calvary, I make the boy sit a few seats away from me. he has this big tattoo on his back of a bat. I tell him that when god strikes him with the lightening bolt, I don’t want to get hurt by being next to him.
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Yes, I would, you have the right desires and would make a great Christian.
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hey, that’s my line (:-{
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