One of the many lines repeated by Bosco here from time to time is that the mitre worn by bishops is modelled on the ‘Dagon fish hats’ worn in Babylonian times. This is not original to him, it has a long an inglorious history. We are being asked, it seems, to believe that the early Christian Church, full of martyrs who preferred to accept death rather than sacrifice to pagan gods, deliberately adopted a symbol from long-defunct Babylon – and so what? The implication appears to be that in that case the Catholic Church is really a Babylonian cult?
Even for Bosco, the connection between image and fact seems a little strained: something looks a bit like something else (and if anyone has a mitre in the shape of a fish-head with scales down the back, do let us know – I have never seen one like this)but since neither Bosco nor anyone else has shown how the connection in headgear actually works, let me direct him and them towards the real source – which is much more obvious.
The earliest Christians were Jews, and it is from the Jews that the headgear, and the word to describe it comes. The word mitre comes from Mitznefet (Hebrew: מצנפת) which is, if Bosco and co. would give it a moment’s thought, fairly obviously the origin. Indeed, if you examine the picture of a Jewish high priest on the right, you will see other examples (including incense) of Christian borrowings. On the strange logic Bosco uses, this would make the Catholics Jews. Odd he has not tried that more obvious one. Or not, given the origin of the nonsense he peddles.
The story comes from a book, called The Two Babylons published in 1853 by a fiercely anti-Catholic Free Church of Scotland Minister called Alexander Hislop. It has been described more recently “as conspiracy theory propaganda” which mixed “sketchy knowledge of Middle Eastern antiquity with a vivid imagination.” It is not surprising that it appeals to those of like mind: you will usually find those who quote it believe in conspiracy theories, have a vivid imagination (for example they can tell you by looking at a picture what is in the heart of the person photographed), and their knowledge of the subject on which they are pontificating is close to zero – but they have a source on the internet.
At no point does Hislop explain how and why ‘Dagon fish hats’ went underground, only to emerge in the eleventh century, or, why when they did, the original round hat did not resemble a ‘fish hat’; nor does he explain why a Roman Emperor would have thought that a Babylonian god, whose worship had died out centuries before, would have been an appealing model for the pagans of his day who worshipped Roman gods.
As an example of the depths of Hislop’s ignorance, this is hard to beat (although almost every page brings forth similar gems):
“In the Litany of the Mass, the worshippers are taught thus to pray:God Hidden, and my Saviour, have mercy upon us.” (M’GAVIN’S Protestant) Whence can this invocation of the “God Hidden” have come, but from the ancient worship of Saturn, the “Hidden God”?
No Latin text of the Mass had any such words in it. Hislop’s source for this is the work of one William M’Gavin, another Scotsman with an anti-Papist bent who produced a series of tracts which had wide circulation in the virulently anti-Catholic atmosphere of early nineteenth century Scotland. The fact that no Mass had such words in it mattered not to the bigots who quoted M’Gavin, and Hislop accepted it as uncritically as he did anything which reflected badly on the Catholic Church.
Those who take their water from such a well should be aware of how tainted it is; that they mistake it for the water of life is not the least of scandalous aspects of the work of those who peddle such tales. Their modern dealer is Jack Chick, whose tracts are simple enough to be taken at one sitting by the simple-minded, and the credulous. He simple repeddles the bigotry of M’Gavin and Hislop. The whole thing is a circular operation.
It is probably pointless to address those who wish to believe such stuff. Those who wish to believe that no one had ever landed on the moon, that George Bush had the Twin Tower blown up, or that the CIA killed Kennedy, will do so; some of them will also believe that two nineteenth century Scotsmen with no experience of Catholicism and no knowledge of the history of the ancient Middle East are authorities worth quoting now. But when they do, they ought not to be surprised that others laugh. Myself, I am more tempted to sadness that any man who confesses Christ, and Him crucified, should so mix poison with the pure water.
Truly, we are a fallen race in need of redemption, and my prayer is that to all such, God will give the Spirit of truth and discernment. Bosco wonders why I question his claim of a personal revelation – he has his answer. Whatever Spirit told him that Hislop and Chick are true is not of God.
Do you think Bosco really believes it, or is he just teasing? I didn’t know where this story came from – nice to know 🙂 xx
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I fear I suspect he really believes it 🙂 x
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I do hope not 🙂 xx
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You have a kind heart Jess 🙂 x
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Soft heart – and soft head probably 🙂 xx
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Well, as to the last, no – though some may mistake the former for it 🙂 x
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🙂 xx
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i never heard of good brother Hilsop. carvings from ancient babylon show the Dagon hats. Fish god. Sing and dance all you want, but the priest you bow befor wears a fish head on his head. And then he waves around a sun symbol. The good news is, Jesus will take you as you are. i was no better. The reason i bother mentioning all that is to make you think about where you trust your salvation. Do you entrust it to men in fish hats? Why not let jesus in and sup with him. let the idolaters stare at the monsterance. Wide is the road to destruction.
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Bosco, if you think the two are the same, a visit to the optometrist is in order. Look at the picture with the post – not at all alike. It was Hislop who said they were and the info gets to you via whatever means – but it is wrong.
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Bosco – that does not matter, he is the source of your information. If whatever spirit is inspiring you lets you believe arrant nonsense, you should ask it more questions. It is certainly not the spirit of truth.
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*Boom* 😎
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I fear that as with all those who believe other conspiracy theories, a few facts won’t change Bosco’s way of thinking. 🙂
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I fear that as well, but there is little to do but present the truth for the rest. Unfortunately, it can easily become a case of carrying coal to Newcastle but, I have little solution for that waste of time. 🙂
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It is all that one can do, I fear. But those with minds so narrow often have room for only the one thought. 🙂
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Very true, and they abound, both in Christianity and in politics in the last few years. When one spend most of his time clean up after them, it leaves little time to proceed down the trail, which will continue to cost us.
Oh well, at least we have something to do! 😀
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Yes, indeed, Neo 🙂
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Thanks 🙂
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I am thinking Bosco should team up with some guy named pobjoy? is that right? So we can get the full shot gun blast.
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I hope, Tom, that he will read this and try to think. Quite how anyone with three working brain cells can believe such palpable nonsense amazes me.
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Good brother c, is not the hat the clergy wear resemble a fish head? Am i wrong about that? its even red inside like a fish mouth. call me all the names you want., but it looks the same as dagon hats. This is no joke.this is the mystery religion spoke of in Rev. the good news is, jesus will take you as you are.
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Yo, Bosco can you explain the meaning of Matt.23:2-3 to those of us who seem to lack your Holy Spirit inspired interpretation of Scripture???
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No it doesn’t. You will have to explain why, for over a thousand years, the Church did not use mitres of that shape and then adopted them. if you really believe that in 1200 AD anyone much knew anything about Babylon, then you are wrong.
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I fear these types will prefer the Jack Chick’s to historical fact but it is good to see it posted here to refer to once in a while as I’m sure the ‘Dagon Fish Hat’ phrase will be used again sometime soon.
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I fear you are right my friend.
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Goodness me, yes, old Hislop – what a mad bunch of so-and-so they were – I knew a lot like that in belfast in my youth – indeed I believe it was there I saw a copy of the dreadful book itself. Good debunking – but you are right – you are not going to convince those whose hearts and minds are closed – so I share your prayer for enlightenment. GRSS
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Thank you Geoffrey. I did wonder whether your hot Belfast youth had familiarised you with this sad stuff – and yes, one needs to pray for these people.
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It is all you can really do I am afraid. Aye, some of those fellows were very odd, that’s for sure.
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Having only been there a couple of times, I still don’t find that hard to believe 🙂
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Yes, they were hard – not least in the head 🙂
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Looks like a fish head to me. Tomorrow it will look like a fish head. yesterday it looked like a fish head. feel free to talk me out of it. What should i think it looks like? Help me out here. thanks in advance
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Get a pair of specs, Bosco. Where is the long trail and the scales? And while you are at it, explain why it wasn’t used before the 11th century?
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As Geoffrey comments, nothing save a pair of glasses – and some education – is likely to help you.
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From the website you linked it says…
“Nimrod or Dagon, the fish god of Babylon, and the mitre worn by the popes…Zooming in you can better see the man wearing the fish head mitre of Babylon. Also notice how the scales of the fish run down the back of the man”
Note: literal fish-head, with *scales*. I can totally see the *scales* running down Karol Wojtyla’s back. He’s a shape-shifting reptilian-kitten-huffing space creature for certain. Too bad they aren’t fish scales though.
Sorry, I just had to make that shape-shifting reptilian-kitten-huffing space creature conspiracy theory joke. 😀
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Quite so – good joke, but let’s see if Bosco gets it 🙂
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Let’s hope. My current theory is that it’s a bearded dragon head but I could be wrong. It might be chameleon or skink.
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/close-encounters-gets-skink-things
See how the mitre is shaped just like it! Totally a reptilian shape shifter! 😉
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Oh , no scales. Well, that cleared that up
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Not only no scales, no trail all the way down the back, no fish eyes, and not used for more than a thousand years in the church.
You seem incapable of actually arguing Bosco. Give me some evidence that connects Babylon with Rome in the thirteenth century- not, I expect, that you know anything about either.
What utterly undermines any credibility is that you don’t even know that you are parroting ancient prejudices put forward by men who knew nothing about Babylon. To judge you on face value, as you do others, you are inspired by a combination of extreme ignorance and prejudice. As I’d prefer to believe that wasn’t so, I have to think you are not being serious.
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Bozo, you have yet to address my argument on it being a bearded dragon head. Which would end up putting countless bullet-holes into your argument that it’s a fish-head.
I’m just joshing. But you actually buy this. Trust me, I used to buy this whole Dagon-fish-head conspiracy theory as well. Then it turns out that Alexander Hislop was a fraud.
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Newenglandsun – you will note Bosco never responds to direct comments like this. He has not commented on Jessica’s post either. I know it is hard, but try not to let him get to you. I will pray for you and for help. C
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My mind is numbed by the fact that Scotland would follow England in any form fit or fashion. If England became semi-sorta-could be-protestant, I would think that Scotland would fight to remain Catholic. Nothing the English had ever imported to Scotland has in their view ever improved the place. The Scottish I know think the English are on the lines of the Roman 9th Legion and should suffer the same fate. The strongest words I ever heard on the subject of England and Scotland were bitterly bit off words, “WE ARE A SEPARATE NATION” and this was by the Rector of an University, well educated, tolerant and no doubt liberal.
York did ask Wallace come down and be the Marshal of their parade, They say they hang people like him on the city walls, but they did ask, I got the inside news from someone in Lancashire.
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The Calvinists got a lasting hold on Scotland – although now it seems as Godless as the rest of the UK.
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The Calvinists, huh?. Must have been the constant overcast skies, being depraved is an improvement in tone during the Scottish winter. To the people from Edinburgh Calvin must have been was from Glasgow, a depressed pipefitter in the ship yards. For those from Glasgow Calvin was a upper class toff from Edinburgh who saw Glasgow as depraved and it smelled bad.
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I can see how Calvinism would appeal 🙂
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Maybe it is not Bosco’s fault maybe where it says in his Bible, ”love your neighbor (unless he wears a Dagon fish hat”, I hope when he meets The Lord on the throne of judgement He is not wearing a Dagon fish hat, He did spend a lot of time with fishermen and did walk on the water, I am sure He knew Port (left) from Starboard (Right). Do Dagon fish hat wearers have green parrots on their shoulders and say, Aye, Matey? and Aye, Aye Captain.
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If they have one leg and cook, it means it is Long John Silver Bosco met 🙂
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There was a movie in I think 53, 54 by Disney “Treasure Island” the actor who played Long John Silver was perfect. I cannot remember his name, but perfect.
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FYI: Robert Newton played Long John Silver in the old Disney production of Treasure Island.
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Ah, Robert Newton, he did a great job, evil but quite charming. very good actor. Perfect.
Reminds me for no reason of a Royal Naval Officer who was killed in a Caribbean squadron and placed in a large barrel of brandy, to keep him preserved, by the time the ship got back to Portsmouth the barrel was empty of Brandy and the body was not fit for purpose. Sailors are wonderful
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Well, let’s just be thankful third world war does not erupt this weekend, with all the muslim terrorists, falling jets, black student riots, Europe shootings and socialist/fascist election debates. Let’s just quietly enjoy our turkeys tonight (if we can afford that) before we stomp on each other on black friday sales.
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