Our brother Bosco commented about my post on the Blessed Virgin:
Good brother Chalcedon, re read the passage. Gabe didnt ask Mary if she would do this. She was told she was going to be with child. Then she said…be it unto me…..thats saying, …well, Ok if thats the deal. If im going to have the baby, so be it.
The CC has turned it into Mary working with god. Mary didnt know her bottom from a hole in the ground. She was a pesant. The CC makes her out to be some deity. And you better bow down and worship her. No Jesus, just Mary. Satan wins. If you are on your knees befor a female graven image….Satan wins.
The first think which stuck me here was the implication, surely unmeant, that God forced himself on the Virgin Mary. In ordinary life, if a woman does not consent we call an ugly deed by an ugly word, and I am going to assume that Bosco had not thought that one through before writing as he did.
If God could simply force us to love and worship Him, there would have been no need for the Fall, the Incarnation and resurrection, and indeed, no need at all to give us free will. But we have free will. If Bosco is suggesting that Our Lady had no free will, he is denying one of the most fundamental tenets of our faith; that we have the free will to accept or reject Christ’s offer of salvation.
In typically pithy style, Bosco implies that Our Lady was ignorant. Well, let us think about that for a moment. How likely is it that the Almighty would choose the DNA of someone like that for His own? There is no reason in Scripture to suggest that Our Lady was of below-average intelligence or character, and every reason to suppose that God would have entrusted the Incarnate Word to a loving earthly mother.
Then we come to the allegation that the Church says the Blessed Virgin is ‘divine’. It would be good if Bosco could offer some evidence of this. There is nothing in Catholic teaching which says this. At the risk of giving him some homework, Bosco might care to read what the Church really teaches about Mary. He won’t find anything approaching what he claims.
Let me say that there are some Catholic publications, not least those published in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, which use such extravagant language about Our Lady that one ignorant of what the Church teaches might be led to believe what Bosco believes; but we do not determine what a Church teaches by such means, but by looking at the reality of that teaching. We believe that Our Lady was a woman, like all women, in need of redemption, like us all, but that by the Grace of her Son, she was cleansed of sin, and thus the first fruit of the redemption for which we all hope.
Catholics, like all Christians, worship the Triune God alone. Those who, in the face of official teaching persist in denying that and claiming we worship Mary thereby spread false witness; now I am sure a Bible-believing chap like Bosco can fond a verse in Scripture about that.
I am always left puzzled by one thing in all of this? Why do some Protestants feel the need to use language which insults the mother of Jesus? Do they suppose He is going to thank them for that?
St Bosco said:
Good brother, i never said Mary was low IQ. Just a common woman of the common class. A woman of the earth. You are funny. You and other catholics use a logic in referring to god and what he does. Logic, like walking on water.Physics mean nothing to god. You still didnt find any contrary scripture to Mary allowing god to give her the baby. You cant make scripture go away, but you can ignore it. The good news is,…it wont effect your salvation. Gabe told Mary she was going to have the baby. He didnt ask her permission. Show me where he asked her permission and ill go away and never come back. This cunningly devised fable about Mary is easy to bust up.But, those who want a virgin queen are forced to deny scripture. A religion that calls itself one true holy and at the same time denies scripture ,scares me. It should scare you too.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco – it would take a very low IQ not to know your bottom from a hole in the ground. God gave us all free will, so unless you are suggesting he forced himself on Mary, then she consented.
Since the men who brought us the Bible believed she was a Virgin, either they are wrong about that (in which case they could be wrong about the Bible) or you are wrong. I know where my money is going on that one 🙂
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St Bosco said:
Thats an american saying . It means clueless.
The bible says mary didnt know her husband till after Jesus was born. The men who brought us the bible should have cut that out. The men who brought us the bible didnt write the bible. They dont get the credit. Sorry. They can believe what they please. They should have cut out that Jesus had brothers and sisters. They didnt. But you want me to ignore that passage. They left it in. But, who cares. What matters is asking Jesus to show himself to you. I used to think Jesus got drunk with his buddies. This was befor i got saved.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well they did not cut it out, which means that they, who spoke Greek, knew that the passage did not mean what you say. Indeed, Bosco, no one thought it meant what you say for 1600 years. So, either they, and all modern Catholics and Orthodox are wrong, or you and some Protestants are. Since God would not have allowed us all to believe what is wrong for that long, my bet is you are wrong.
Still, best of luck with explaining to Jesus that His Father forced himself on his mother, and that he has a load of half brothers.
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St Bosco said:
There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
” Indeed, Bosco, no one thought it meant what you say for 1600 years”
Uh good brother Chalcedon, are you feeling Ok? I didnt write the bible. I just believe it. Scripture says Jesus had brothers, not me. Now if scripture said they were cousins or friends i would believe that. So now, who are you to tell me scripture is wrong?
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chalcedon451 said:
In the original Greek, Bosco, the words can also be translated as cousins or half brothers. If those who spoke Greek also taught Mary was a Virgin, then it follows they must not have translated the words in the way you do.
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St Bosco said:
Er eh, good brother Chalcedon, um, i translate brother to mean brother. After long hard hrs of academic work and searching ancient manusrcipts, i carefully translated brother to mean brother. I thank you one and all
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chalcedon451 said:
Just goes to show how wrong you can get, Bosco. Do read my post from Saturday which covers this pretty thoroughly.
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St Bosco said:
Logic says one cant rise from the dead. One cant walk on water. One cant turn water into wine. What was that again? God obeys the laws of logic? You guys have hit the bottom as far as justifying false doctrine goes. Kinda hard to convince someone the bible doesnt say…WHAT IT SAYS.
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St Bosco said:
OK, tell me how logical it is to walk on water. Thanks in advance. Oh and turning water into wine. Help me with the logic there too. Be a dear.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Quiav, when was the last time you walked on water?
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St Bosco said:
Like walk thru walls. I quess youre going to tell me thats logical, like you said walking on water is logical. How many people have you seen walking on water? When was the last time you walked thru a wall.?
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St Bosco said:
People pray to Mary….Fact
People believe they hear them and act on their prayers….fact.
In order for Mary to hear a billion prayers every hour she has to be omipresent….Fact
To hear every prayer Mary cant sleep or rest…..Fact
To be away from the body and with Christ is referred to as rest….Fact.
These qualities suggest a deity. Hearing and answering prayer…..Fact
The bad news is your prayers to her go unheard. The good news is it doesnt effect salvation. You can be a murderer and still get saved.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, do you never ask friends to pray for you? Why should we not ask Mary to pray for us to God? As you have no idea what life in Heaven is like,why should it not allow her to hear our prayers, or, indeed, allow other saints so to do? We are made in the image of God, Bosco, so once in Heaven we will partake of some of the Divine attributes, like eternal life – that does not make us, or Mary, God.
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St Bosco said:
There you go with human reasoning again. Something that important would have been mentioned by Jesus or Paul . Not one word of that. yes i ask a friend to pray for me. They are alive. You do see a difference between alive and dead? Lets see what the bible says…
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
This is the first and last time a dead person communicated with the living. And Samuel wasnt happy. Instead of your logic, why not show me scripture where the dead work for god.
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chalcedon451 said:
Show me in Scripture where it says Mary is dead? Those who compiled the Bible believed she had been taken to Heaven. If you believe their Bible, why not believe as they did? It is you, Bosco, who insists your personal reasoning is worth more than that of the men who compiled the Bible.
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St Bosco said:
Thats what i like about you good brother, you do keep a modicum of honesty. You stop short of saying these guys wrote the bible. If Satan hands me a bible , do i believe what he believe, just because he handed me a bible? Why should i think like the early idolaters that compiled the bible. Which the bible existed befor them anyway. Its another false claim that the CC compiled it. I dont know these guy or what they believe. I believe scripture. I hope you dont mind. The bible doesnt say Mary died. Mary isnt a big figure in the NT. The NT doesnt say I, Bosco arent the 4rth person of the trinity, therfore, I, Bosco am the 4rth person of the trinity. The bible doesnt say im not. Bow down to my image or ill throw you into a fiery furnace.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well, Bosco, here’s the thing. Who do you think inspired the men who put together the Bible? God or Satan? I think it was God, which is why they chose correctly. I also think that they knew the Bible extremely well, and I know that they agreed with me that the Virgin Mary remained a Virgin, which meant they did not agree with your reading of a verse which they knew. So, Bosco, who is right. the non-Greek speaking twenty-first century Bosco, the God-Inspired me who brought us the Bible? I know who my money is on.
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St Bosco said:
I dont care how much these costume holymen knew the bible. None of this Mary stuff is in it. Its just that simple. Its still says Mary had kids. That has nothing to do with the plan of salvation. But when you turn a human into your redeemer, then your salvation is no where. Hey, have at it. Im sorry to see it. I emplore you to ask for salvation. ZThats all i can do.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, there is nothing in the Bible about Jesus talking to people on a bus, so I guess that would rule out your experience? Well, I believe you, and I believe your experience because tradition tells us that these things have happened. But if you insist it has to be in the Bible to be believable, then you rule your own experience out.
Scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters only in the English version. The original does not say that. People often call what we would call step brothers or sisters just ‘brother and sister’.
As I say, if those who knew the Bible well enough to tell us what it was also tell us Mary was a Virgin, I’m with those guys.
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St Bosco said:
Jesus dint talk to me on the bus ride. I was changed on the bus. Could have been anywhere. I had a new spirit that knew Jesus. i didnt realize it at the time. I thought i was just having one of my freak spells.
Is not this the carpenter’ s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:—Douay Rheims
And his sisters, are they not all with us?
ibid
Even your beloved catholic bible say the same. What say ye?
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chalcedon451 said:
I say that the the Greek reads as I have said, and that they were half brothers and sisters. Jessica has a half-sister, they always call each other ‘sister’, so does everyone who knows them. Does that mean they are full sisters? No, they have different fathers.
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St Bosco said:
Oh well yes. Jesus brothers were half brothers since they had different fathers. Ok, ill go with that. But its not important to anyone except someone who wants to make poor ol Mary a virgin queen.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well, it matters because Jesus cannot have half-brothers with the same mother Bosco.
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St Bosco said:
Different fathers good brother.
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chalcedon451 said:
Why not different mothers?
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St Bosco said:
Why not different mothers? These compilers inspired by god didnt write the bible. So we can stop giving them credit for what it says. Now youre doing the Jehovas thing and just saying anything. Theres no harm in thinking Mary stayed a virgin. Its a non issue. It becomes an issue when you make a graven image of her and pray to her to save you at the hr of your death. The CC has said that one cannot come to Christ except thru Mary. People who buy that are in deep bandini. They waste their life expecting Mary to save them, and then die unsaved. God is working on my daughter. She is attending a gathering and has christian friends. i stand on the promise she will get saved. I can go happy when she does. If no one else comes to Christ because of my efforts, but her, im happy. I cant bare to think of her in hell forever. i wont have it. Of course i warned her about the CC long ago. She wont fall for that mess. Ive done my job and leave the rest to Jesus.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, the men who compiled Scripture read it too. They read Matthew, and they said Our Lady was a virgin. Now why would they do that? Even more to the point, why don’t you do as they did?
No one asks Mary to save them at the hour of their death – the Hail Mary asks her to pray for us – read the text. No one has ever taught you can’t come to Jesus except by Mary. Where do you get these odd ideas?
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St Bosco said:
St. Antonius (250-350) claimed: ‘All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary.’ St. Bernard (1090-1153) wrote ‘[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her
The Glories of Mary , Alphonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) describes how Mary is given half of God’s kingdom to rule. Mary is considered a source of salvation and a mediator between God and man. He also claims that outside of Mary there is no salvation. She rules jointly with Christ and is to be served, worshipped and given devotion to by men.
Pius IX adds: ‘With her Son, the Only-begotten, she is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world.
Thus Roman Catholic Catechism 966 states: ‘You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.’
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.’ para 969
heres that therefore again
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chalcedon451 said:
That means that through Mary, Jesus came into the world – is that incorrect?
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St Bosco said:
A different kind of omnipresent. Ahhhh, that explains it. You sound like a Jehovas. Thats how they explain their wicked religious beliefs.
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St Bosco said:
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
These are the prayers of the living born again. Born again are saints. Nt is clear on that. When i pray, the sweet smell of my prayer comes up out of that vile the angel is holding.
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
No mention of saints being in heaven. Whats more odd is you think all the saints are catholic costume holymen. Heaven is the exclusive domain of the corrupt inquisition indulgence selling CC. Now thats truly funny.
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St Bosco said:
Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. [6]
Mary Anne Colins, former Nun
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St Bosco said:
Oh PS. Saul got in trouble for consulting the dead. You are aware of that little fact? Nothing in scripture suggest we seek help from the dead. But, to tow the catholic line, you have to invent all kinds of un biblical things. Why not just take Jesus yoke upon you. It easy and light.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well, Bosco, there is nothing in Scripture which says Mary is dead. If you are interested in the Jewish background read this:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm
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St Bosco said:
On the one hand, as you pointed out, the Torah tells us not to “beseech the dead.” It’s listed along with all the other “abominations” practiced by the people that lived in Canaan before we came there.
Then it goes on to say custom had people going to graves and praying. Custom of the people doesnt negate the word of god like the CC say it does. Obviously beseeching the dead is an abomination. I guess thats why the CC is real big on that. They even make graven images of the dead to bow befor. Thanks for the great link
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, are you telling us that you think God cannot do miracles? If Elijah could be taken straight to Heaven, why not the Virgin Mary? Have a little faith my friend, God is great.
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St Bosco said:
God does miracles. Its just Mary being taken would have been mentioned by someone. Seems logical. I have no prob with that. But here comes the therefore. Elijah therefore Mary. Then teach it as if its scripture.
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chalcedon451 said:
Why is it logical? We are not told about the death of Peter or Paul, but tradition tells us they were martyred in Rome under Nero – the same tradition which tells us Mary was taken into Heaven.
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St Bosco said:
jesus warned me about the traditions of men. he says they make void the Word of God. And he was rite again. These trads contradict scripture. You say the greek brother COULD men cousin. Could. Then you tell me it does mean cousin. Elizabeth was identified as cousin, no prob. But when brother gets in the way of your tradition, it has to mean something else. You void the word of god. Thats why at any given day one can find catholics at the feet of graven images. They have voided the word of god and replaced it with tradition. God really hates the graven image thing, by the way.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Quiav, the ones who died in Christ are with him. The ones who went befor are asleep. Scripture says the dead in Christ rise first.
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St Bosco said:
Your god is a cement graven image of a man. Oh, and a female.
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St Bosco said:
Praying to the dead an abomination in OT buts its a great thing in the NT. God doesnt change like the CC does, all the time.
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St Bosco said:
The ones who died befor the resurrection and are saved were ones who expected Christ. They just didnt DIE in Christ. They sleep. The second resurrection is for the damned. the idolaters and fearful and whoremongers who serve idols and dress them and burn incense in front of them and bow to them.
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St Bosco said:
A medium, like asking Mary to go to god for you? that kind of medium?
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St Bosco said:
What these compilers believe is contrary to scripture. Why would i go with things against scripture. Look at catholics. Their homes and cars and offices and temples are chock full of graven images and they even bow befor them. They enjoy a queen of heaven which god hates. Why in blue blazes would i want to participate in that with them? Just because the compilers did it?
But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
This is what god thinks of a queen of heaven. I quess next youll tell me it doesnt mean what its says, like Jesus brothers dont mean what it says.
As for the word which thou hast spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken to thee: [17] But we will certainly do every word that shall proceed out of our own mouth, to sacrifice to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, as we and our fathers have done, our kings, and our princes in the cities of Juda, and in the streets of Jerusalem: and we were filled with bread, and it was well with us, and we saw no evil. [18] But since we left off to offer sacrifice to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword, and by famine. —-Douay Rheims
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco – engage brain.
These are the men who compiled Scripture, they were the ones who knew what was and was not Scripture, so, like me, they understood the Greek to mean ‘cousins’ or ‘half-brother’; for you to claim you know what those Greek words mean better than people who spoke Greek and established what Scripture was is, to put it mildly, amusing. Why are you better qualified to know the meaning of the Greek than they were? Think about it Bosco.
As for the rest, Bosco, the same tradition which brought us the Bible tells us that the Virgin was a Virgin. Now if you want to spent eternity bad-mouthing Jesus’ mother, I’d be guessing you’ll be a in hot spot when you do it.
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St Bosco said:
I dont know nothing bout greek words. The bible says Joseph didnt know his wife til after Jesus was born. Unless he had a jimmy hat, she must have bore children. How can you greek away that passage? My god got me a reliable book. its there for us to compare with false teachings. Jesus had brothers. Im not going to discard what my bible says. If i start with something small and useless like brothers, it can go on to bigger falsehoods. It can lead me to think i can pay for my own sins. Then it might get me to bow befor idols made by human hands. So, im not going to toss not one word out. Im not going to add anything either. its not my book. You can add the economy of images, but im not going to dance to that tune. I leave that to the idolaters
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, if you look at my post on Saturday you will see there are plenty of places in the Bible where ’till’ can’t mean that after that date something happened.
God did give you a reliable book, courtesy of men who knew Our Lady was Virgin; you believe part of what they bring you and reject the rest. Plain odd.
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St Bosco said:
i believe i saw your saturday post. There is nothing ireject in scripture
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chalcedon451 said:
My dear Bosco, if you know better than the men who knew what the Bible was, do you not feel that might be a trifle arrogant?
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St Bosco said:
I dont know who the compilers are, or their names or what they belive. Im getting a little from you. I thought Mariology came much later. But i never worry about it. i just follow the Lamb. he doesnt lead me to Mary.
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