In the latest Catholic Herald our good friend Francis Phillips tackles the thorny question of how the Church should react when Catholic politicians in powerful places (in this case, the current VP, Joe Biden, and the likely next one, Tim Kaine) say or do things which create scandal in the minds of the faithful – such as blessing a gay marriage or endorsing abortion: the Church does not support either of these things. The obvious response is that these men have a right to advocate what they do – ‘it’s a free country’ after all. That is perfectly true, and as an ardent defender of the right to free speech (not only on ideological grounds, but also on the grounds that I have always been sure that I’d be one of the first to be silenced), I would never suggest that they should not have the right to do and say what they want. Of course, you might respond, ‘but what if they were acting illegally?’ My response would be twofold: if anyone knows a way of preventing people doing illegal acts, let us all know; and we have a thing called the Law, which provides appropriate penalties for those committing them. Thus, as in any balanced society, rights come with responsibilities, and actions have consequences. You have the right to say and do what you want, but the responsibility to do so within the Law; go beyond that and there will be consequences.
We might, perhaps, expect the same set of principles to apply in the Church. Of course, Scripture advises us against getting the secular authorities involved in disputes between Christians (a sensible precaution even now, but an essential one when the New Testament was being written), and states that we should take the matter up, first with the individual, and should that fail, we should go via the Church. Francis quotes Cardinal Burke’s sensible words on the issue of what to do about those who take a stand against the teaching of the Church. They should, he suggests, be told
“to make their public actions consistent with the moral law taught by the Church; otherwise it would no longer be possible for them to receive Holy Communion.”
But this has been something no Bishops’ conference has been willing to do. This raises a question not considered by the writers of Scripture – what do you do when you take it to the Church and get no reaction?
It might, of course, be the case that a ‘private word’ has been had with the erring politicians; it might equally be the case that there is some good reason (unfathomable to the rest of us mere mortals) why nothing is said or done to indicate disapproval. But it is hard to escape the conclusion that the failure to take any action is, itself, a further cause of scandal to ‘we the people’. But it might, perhaps be said that ‘we the people’ don’t really care and we’re happy to let our politicians go with the zeitgeist, perhaps even in the hope that Tim Kaine has that it will help bring the Church into the modern era. So much the worse for ‘we the people’. The Church did not invent its dogmatic teaching, it defined it from what it has received from the Apostles, and if every Catholic in the world agreed that Jesus was just a very good man but not the Son of God, that would not alter the fact He is the Son of God. The same is true of popular views on issues where they conflict with Church teaching.
joseph elon lillie said:
I believe we are called to speak the truth in love as the apostle exhorts us. The Word is the Word and should any governing body even the church herself abandon it then the faithful must cling to the Scripture and the One who spoke it. He is the only unshakeable foundation.
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NEO said:
My view of free speech is very much like yours, and for much the same reasons.
But there is something quite unbecoming in Catholic (or to be fair say a Lutheran) politician saying things that are obviously against what his church teaches, without a correction coming from his church.
To me this is not really a free speech issue, it is more a case of putting oneself above God and/or the church. That likely should not be illegal, civilly, but it should prompt the church to action, of some kind not best done while hiding in bed.
I just read this from the US Commission on Civil Rights. I may have more to say on this so just a taste,
““The phrases ‘religious liberty’ and ‘religious freedom’ will stand for nothing except hypocrisy so long as they remain code words for discrimination, intolerance, racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia or any form of intolerance,” ”
To be fair, Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore has responded forcefully, which is why I’m considering saying more, but this says very bad things about religious freedom in our countries. That someone could seriously and officially make such a statement indicates that something has gone very wrong somewhere, and while I think our churches may have some responsibility, others bear more.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thanks Neo – and yes, I’d look forward to your comments on that piece of nonsense from the Civil Rights Commission.
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NEO said:
Quite, I’ll see if I can pull it together without simply reblogging, should be enough around.
It was as bad as anything I’ve read in a fair while.
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chalcedon451 said:
It sounds, even by the standards of the type, quite mad.
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NEO said:
It does, indeed, but it’s not uncommon coming from the USG in the last few years. Goes well with requiring nun to have insurance that covers contraceptive, I suppose.
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chalcedon451 said:
Alas – crazy folk
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NEO said:
Indeed, and in fact. I’ve a draft there for you, as well. 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
Excellent – let’s put it up tomorrow, as it follows so closely on to what we’ve been doing today.
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NEO said:
Agree completely.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank you, Neo – very on the money
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NEO said:
Thanks, C.
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Bosco the Great said:
Are the catholic faithful having difficulty falling in line? No prob…..show them a rotting piece of flesh. Have them pray to it and viola…unity.
LOWELL, Mass. – The heart of St. Padre Pio will be on display in Massachusetts this week, marking the first time the religious relic has ever left its home in Italy. The Sun reports (http://bit.ly/2cJfSVK ) that the heart will be first made available for viewing Wednesday at the Immaculate Conception Church in Lowell. The Rev. Paul Soper says honoring the relics of saints is ancient practice in the Roman Catholic faith
Honoring rotten flesh, how macabre. Well, that’s the CC for you. Its all about the flesh and what the eye can see.
Blessed are those who have not seen but believe.
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Eccles (@BruvverEccles) said:
My dear bruvver Bosco found that discussing the topic of C’s post was too difficult, as it used words like “responsibilities” which were unknown to him. So he decided to change the subject to that of relics. Don’t worry, Bosco dear, I don’t think anyone noticed.
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Bosco the Great said:
Who pulled your chain?
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chalcedon451 said:
I suspect you did, Bosco. Let me ask you, did you ever see a conspiracy theory you didn’t like?
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Bosco the Great said:
The cathols aren’t talking about how their fearless leaders is conversing with all these other false pagan religions. Let me restate that. Cathols aren’t up in arms that their Holy Father is consulting and praying with pagan religious leaders. I maintain that Catholicism is the biggest false pagan religion on earth. There is no reason why she shouldn’t consort with other fiendish cults. I dabbled in Nishrin shoshu and Hindustan when I was a teen. So I can say for sure that the CC is even more satanic than those ridiculous idiot cults. The first religion was that of Nimrod. Him and his mother. These other eastern cults have remnants of this. But the religion of Nimrod has stayed intact and is live and well in the Roman Catholic Cult of Personality.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, you aren’ t a Catholic and never have been, but having dabbled in all sorts of nonsense makes you and expert in Catholicism? Surely it simply makes you an expert in nonsense? Your rabid anti-Catholicism is in a long and sad line of tin-foil hatters who hate the church Jesus founded.
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Bosco the Great said:
LOWELL — A shiny black van pulled up to Immaculate Conception Church on Wednesday morning, accompanied by a police officer on a motorcycle, lights flashing. The van’s side door slid open, disgorging five Capuchin friars in hooded robes. One carried a silver vessel in the likeness of a house. Inside the house was a glass box. In the box, a dried-out human heart. The heart belonged to St. Padre Pio, a mystical Capuchin friar from Southern Italy and one of the most popular figures in Roman Catholicism
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/712f7bed-5685-3c20-9cd1-27ad44cc2708/hundreds-flock-to-lowell.html
Click the link and see some satanic man holding what is suppose to be a human organ in some container for the children to file by and kiss it. You wonder why I am against the catholic church? Its leading even children to hell. Its bad enough that the adults are idolaters…now they make their children two fold the child of hell as themselves.
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chalcedon451 said:
Has it ever occurred to you that you don’t understand what is going on?
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Bosco the Great said:
Filing by and kissing the rotten body part of some sinful human. Excuse me, but doesn’t that fall under the heading of idolatry? Let me know if im wrong.
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chalcedon451 said:
You’re wrong. Idolatry is worshipping some other God. No one is worshipping PP.
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Bosco the Great said:
Its also venerating humans . Webster definition . Not just worshiping some other god. You ought to know better than that. Now, I have idols in my life. I don’t need anymore of them. When your religion supplies idols to its devotees, its time to think about A; either dropping that religion….or B; getting on your knees and asking Jesus to show you the way.
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chalcedon451 said:
Venerating and worship are different – Webster ought to know better.
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Bosco the Great said:
OK, ill leave the body part thing alone, for now. But wait, ….im gonna find the definition for venerate, and then im done.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, everyone here except you knows you are wrong. You can insist otherwise, but only you thinks anyone is worshipping PP.
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Bosco the Great said:
I don’t want to offend my idolater friends in here. It bothers me none that they use images in their worship of who ever they worship. You have my blessings. I used to do the same thing. But when the children are forced to idolize human body parts, that when I have to speak up.
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chalcedon451 said:
Idolatry = worship. No one worships PP. as I said, you don’t understand – and refuse to make the effort to think.
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Bosco the Great said:
i·dol·a·try
/īˈdälətrē/
noun
noun: idolatry; plural noun: idolatries
worship of idols.
synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping
“the prophets railed against idolatry”
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Bosco the Great said:
No one is worshipin good brother Pio. OK. Whats with kissing his body parts? Sending them around the world for sundry people to venerate and kiss. What is that?
Youre right, I harp on the same stuff over and over again.
Gotta get right with Jesus folks. Today is the day of salvation. He will take you as you are.
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chalcedon451 said:
I hate to be the one to tell you that among normal people kissing is a sign of love and affection.
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Bosco the Great said:
Among normal live people, kissing is affection. Do these children know Pio? Have they ever met him? Deep love and affection for someone they never met? That’s sad, making kids kiss rotting body parts. What a morbid thing to do.
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chalcedon451 said:
No one makes them. They know he was a holy man who loved Jesus. What would your reaction be to such a man?
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Bosco the Great said:
Don’t know him. Never met him. I usually don’t revere humans for their holiness. Its my belief that all men are evil. Im aware good brother Pio burned his hands with acid to make those holes. It worked. Catholics think hes some kind of demi god. You guys even think he was in 2 places at once…omnipotent. What baffles me is you guys chewed apart good brother Moniker Williams for his mystical beliefs.
Until one is born again, one cant see what is going on.
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chalcedon451 said:
Help is available here http://youtu.be/i8raYi6JsGE
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Bosco the Great said:
Oh yeah, catholic answers with my old friend good brother Aikens. So, the word venerate has changed its meaning now. Its all just a semantics game with you false religion people. As long as one is alive, one can get saved, even if one worships a false god or venerate some queen of heaven. No sin is to great to overcome.
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chalcedon451 said:
I’m sure that made sense to you.
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Bosco the Great said:
veneration
noun ≡respect, esteem, reverence, worship, awe, deference, adoration
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/veneration
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chalcedon451 said:
You can quote incorrect definitions all you like, but if you really believe anyone is treating PP the way they treat God, you might need some help.
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Bosco the Great said:
Im sorry I brought it up. You could justify pushing an old lady down the stairs if your religion does it.
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chalcedon451 said:
No one worships PP. quite simple really.
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Bosco the Great said:
The Italian historian Sergio Luzzatto will release Padre Pio, Miracles and politics in 20th century Italy – a book producing new evidence from Vatican archives, which he says proves that the charismatic friar secretly procured carbolic acid with which to burn his hands, feet and sides.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/padre-pio-faked-his-stigmata-with-acid-397811.html
The allegations are not new: two successive popes regarded Padre Pio as a fraud. By 1920, when Pio was 33 and was already exhibiting his scars before masses of pilgrims, the church was worried that his cult was spinning out of control. Reports commissioned by the church claimed Pio regularly scourged himself with a metal-tipped whip, and had sex with women twice a week. For many years Pio was banned from celebrating mass in public.
Maybe you’ve heard of this publication
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chalcedon451 said:
I have – try this for a more balanced view
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-schiffman/padre-pio-stigmata_b_1112113.html
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Bosco the Great said:
Yeah, Jesus has people share in his crucifixion. God says he doesn’t share his glory with anyone. Oh well, just invite Jesus in and when he comes in we can fellowship. You me and Christ. No costume holymen.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, I did, long ago. He led me to his church.
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