Earlier in the week the question was posed as to how far the ethical structures we have inherited from Christianity can outlast its diminished influence? Our regular commentator thoughfullydetached offered one of his many perceptive comments on this, noting that Benedict XVI’s
conclusion was that the West is running on empty and that it is only, as it were, the fumes of Christianity that keep the ethical vehicle on the road. The further we travel without fuel the more attenuated the residual influence becomes.
That seems on the money.
The West, perhaps because it keeps spitting on its luck in inheriting the system of ethics and law it has, finds it very difficult to understand the rest of the world. Our politicians seem to proceed from the assumption that our way of doing things really is universal, and it is only the dimness or corruption of their counterparts elsewhere which prevents the rest of the world following suite. It is a version of Rousseau’s ludicrously optimistioc statem,ent that man was born free and is everywhere in chains, with the corollary that if only the chains could be struck off, his natural goodness would come to the fore. From the French Revolution, through its Russian namesake to every revolution since, what actually happens is a dreadful proof odf the teaching of the Church about mankind and original sin. But still, the Enlightenment dogma goes on its way – we have seen lately, from Iraq to Syria to Libya that ‘regime change’ does not produce democracy. And why should it?
Democracy as we know it is a conginent phenomenon, the result of centuries of struggle over the question of who rules whom and what the State exists to do? OUr ancient rulers did not just wake up one morning and think that their absolute monarchy was, when you came to think about it, a bad thing. They had to be brought, often at great cost to them and to others, to the view that the common man was not simply a human beast of burden, there to provide the prerequisites of a privileged lifestyle for the few. That remains, as any survey of political regimes will confirm, a view held by most elites, and the struggle for democracy even in the West has to be eternal. Whatever one things of the rights and wrongs of the Brexit debate, its result has been a sharp (and to elite, entirely unwelcome) reminder that democracy means the rule of the people. The American Constitution, like the European Union’s one, attempted to mitigate the effects of direct democracy, and all parliamentary systems try to ensure that the rule of the majority does not turn into a tyranny over the minority.
In the Anglosphere, the connection between the development of democracy and Christianity has been an interesting one. The Church has often found itself on the side of the elites whose favour it needed, but it has also provided the fundemental building block from which democratic ideas were formed – that every one of us ios a child of God and therefore of equal value, and not to be discarded or exploited. We shall see how that concept fares as the influence of the Faith wanes.
The ‘West’ finds it odd that China and other countries outside the western tradition seem not to understand that our way is the best way, and despite its best efforts to bomb parts of the Middle East into democracy, people there seem stubbornly resistant to its merits. But it really is not that surprising. Democracy on the model we have it is not a widespread phenomenon. The Americans inherited it from the British, as did the rest of the Anglosphere. Western Europe hammered it out with many mistakes, false starts and dead-ends. Despite the optimism of Woodrow Wilson in 1919 that the fall of the great empires would be followed by an efflorescence of democracy, no such thing happened. By the end of 1938 there was no democracy left east of the Rhine or south of the Pyrenees. World War II gave democracy a second chance in countries such as Italy and West Germany, but the situation remained – and I would suggest still remains, fragile. Democracy is not the natural end of political development – it may yet turn out to be a fragile growth which failed to thrive in hard times.
What I’m reading at the moment, says we are changing our central idea. Since the end of the Cold War, it has been all about shared sovereignty, globalization and such. But our people fail to see any benefit from it, and so we see Brexit, and Trump, and Bernie as well. Not to mention turmoil in Europe.
If done somewhat right, that poses little threat in the Anglosphere, we seem to periodically try extremes and then draw back, and our peoples have always been jealous of their freedom. But in Europe, and the rest of the world, there is much less experience with this process, and much less history of democracy (which is not quite what I mean, but will serve, I think). So while the Anglosphere will likely shift about and yell at each other a lot, eventually we’ll figure something out.
But what about the rest, have we taught them how. Remember you spoke of 1938 (with sufficient cause) by 1941, freedom existed only in the Anglosphere, and even there it was a near run thing.
And yes, the church has a major role in all this, not so much as an overt force, even here that appears to wane, but that is where the basic moral and ethical underpinnings come from, and I agree the tank is pretty much empty, at the moment. It’s needed now, because almost everything is in flux, and a fixed point to coalesce around would be useful.
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It seems to me evens as to whether democracy actually survives. If it cannot deliver what it did after 1945 and through to the 1980s, then it won’t, because the people will fall prey to demagogues who promise them safety and security. We are, it seems to me, talking a tight-rope, and I am by no means sure that we shan’t fall off.
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There are surely risks, but what else to do? What I see underlying much of this is the return of the nation state, mostly missing since 1989. That in itself has risks, especially in continental Europe, but if we get behind the rhetoric, what I’m hearing (especially as he learns, and he is quickly) is a call once again to be simply Americans, not this identity group or another, I saw the same thing in Brexit, with its appeal to British sovereignty.
Are there significant dangers? Of course there are. But our societies have essentially broken down into warring identity groups, almost all of whom have been hurt by the administrative state. There is much room for improvement as well.
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I fear it is so.
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Aye, democracy is indeed fragile and I doubt many have the desire or the spirit of sacrifice needed to preserve it in its better forms.
“You’re gonna have to serve somebody” as Bob Dylan points out in his famous lyrics. The problem with “all inclusive” ideologies is, when taken to their extremes, that they tend to fail and create a bigger mess than the one they were intended to fix.
When it comes down to the foundational problem it is the balance and equilibrium that constantly gets lost no matter the political, philosophical or religious framework that is being sought. It is an humanly impossible tightrope-walk that we attempt: to serve God and to serve man without favoring one above the other. Both are unachievable without sacrifice of “human freedom” and “individualism” that seems to be the aim of the would-be dreamers who finally consider their tribe, their group, their color, their religion, their success, or their selves to be victims and thus struggling, in their mind legitimately, for domination or perhaps liberation from another’s domination. Once we have divided and subdivided down to the individual ego the only thing that satisfies is complete anarchy [all men are islands] and anarchy is totally chaotic. Loss of life and limb, and an absence of law and order and security are its earmark. Survival of the strongest is the only rule and imposing one’s will upon others once again begins the cycle of governing, enslaving and dominating others to the benefit of those who are doing the governing.
Seems to me that democracy and even a representative democracy has about run its course as we no longer serve God at all; only smaller and smaller constituencies – – – moving ever closer to that point where the individual feels compelled to throw off the shackles of a bloated government that continues to grow and divide us into smaller and smaller groups. We inch forward to a complete breakdown of society where our tribal instincts prevail and where the individuals ‘rights’ are nearing anarchy itself. This will eventually produce a smaller oligarchy that will once again impose a rule of law on the weaker subjects and restore order; though one that is probably far worse than the one that was abandoned.
In short, if we want governance with law and order it must require some ‘happy medium’ of give and take, and individual sacrifice of various millions of personal desires and wants. Total subjection to a ‘benevolent’ authority is only possible in heaven where we subject our wills entirely to God . . . and the Catholic Church is the only religion that comes close to emulating this subjection in the earthly plane; a surrender to Holy Church and Her Authority as it is the Authority vicariously handed over to Her from God for the salvation of our souls. But then we know that this is voluntary and that coercion into such a model cannot work . . . and thus this broken world goes on and evil forces work to destroy that which God bound together by a common origin [made in His image and likeness] and in our common restoration [founded in Christ alone]. It is the sad fact that fallen men will not see both the common origin or the common reconciliation or even admit the truth of these two facets that unite men more than our tribal ties or our individual desires and wants.
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I am afraid I agree. There are times when I think Kipling’s ‘The Gods of the Copybook Headings’ should be compulsory reading.
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Yes it does seem to be an interminable cycle doesn’t it?
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As so often, RK had it right
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Firstly, thank you for the kind remarks about my (supposed) perceptiveness 😀.
Secondly, the point about liberal democracy being a contingent not an inevitable development is an important one, much overlooked. This feeds into another dominant narrative that of progress. There is a widespread underlying assumption that every society will eventually develop not only along the lines of Westminster/Washington style governmental systems but that these equally inevitably will come to the same conclusions about, say, the family, sexuality, abortion and so on that ‘we’ already have. That being so jollying the process along with a few strategic interventions is not so much interfering as it is saving time.
Many societies, however, wholly lack anything like the contingent factors leading the West to where it is today. This not only means that we have no reason to suppose they will develop along similar lines it also has implications for Western political culture as population shifts bring significant numbers of people into the West whose ideas about politics have radically different foundations. This may be no bad thing but it is a ‘thing’ and therefore worth thinking about.
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Very much so. I also think that the equation may well be much different for the US and UK, compared with the rest of Europe. (Classically) liberal democracy is our construct, we have been working on it since King Alfred, and it’s still not perfect, nor will it ever be. The way we do it on either side of the pond works, although somewhat differently, but to much the same ends.
I wonder if we don’t expect far too much of our European friends, let alone the rest of the world. Even if they shared our hopes, the differences wrought in about 1200 years of experimenting are unlikely to be deeply learned in the last 70 years. For us, it is instinctual, to a large extent, and that is what for us assimilation is all about. As our ancestors absorbed the American character, they also learned that ethos, mostly. But without assimilation, it will always fail. That tells me, at least that identity politics must end, and maybe that is finally in train.
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Very true – and we tend not to see it.
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At the risk of provoking anger, wouldn’t you still be singing come Passion Week, “Make way, make way, for the King of kings”? I am not sure that when Christ comes to rule He will ask people whether they will vote Him into office. I know that does not address the here and now, but I do worry about our pre-occupation with democracy – it can’t be helpful in evangelising cultures where it is not an authentic, native element. We’re not called upon to be subversive in that manner. As for manning our own defenses, by all means, but remember: we are courtiers in a greater palace than Westminster.
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We are, but in this world we have to govern and be governed, and we have managed to evolve a system for doing that better than any we have known across the long history of humankind.
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And while I too agree with Nicholas, our system which is one (or more accurately, two) of the few designed to deal with original sin on the political level, is worth saving.
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You both might be interested in a PhD thesis that explores St. Irenaeaus’ take on original sin: http://drmsh.com/the-origin-of-sin-in-irenaeus-and-jewish-pseudepigrapha-enoch-jubilees-etc/. You’ll have to download it, the link for the thesis is within the blog entry.
Re: democracy, I’m inclined to agree that it offers some protection against various abuses. Constitutions don’t really do that because people amend them against the will of the original framers when it suits their purposes. There’s nothing really to keep a constitution in place other than the good will of its people or sufficient arms. Once the people become corrupt no amount of law can fix them – only Jesus can do that.
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Many thanks Nicholas.
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Actually, democracy offers no protection at all, Salsbury was on point when he said:
“I mean a country where people are allowed, so long as they do not hurt their neighbours, to do as they like. I do not mean a country where six men may make five men do exactly as they like. That is not my notion of freedom.”
On the other hand, constitutions such as the American one, offer considerable protection, as long as they are properly interpreted. That has become a problem, as Humpty Dumpty has taken over the definition of words. The ultimate basis is, as you state, an armed citizenry. Pray God we never get to that point.
And yes, all that is legal is not moral, as Augustine, and Luther King, amongst others, said clearly.
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Want to know the difference between the saved and the unsaved?….read the comments to this post. Then read the book of Rev.
The born again know this madness will some to and end soon and Jesus will set up His kingdom. You wont catch a single solitary born again arguing over if democracy will save us. The saved know they will be taken out of the way. Then the unsaved can enjoy their Masters rule of the earth. Its obvious you unsaved don’t believe one gat danged word of the bible, and if you did, you would comfort each other with scripture instead of scaring each other with democracy and what to do next.
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Yep, a case study as to how the unsaved can’t understand diddly squat about the book the Church canonised.
You must have missed those parts of the Bible where we are to render unto Caesar – or perhaps they aren’t in your Bible. Scripture is not meant for comfort Bosco, it is meant to help the saved. You’ll get this if God so wishes. If not, well, best of luck my friend, but you can’t say, ever say, no one tried to tell you about the Church Jesus founded. But like the Israelites of old, you are stiff-necked and fond of idols- in your case, your belief you are saved.
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Uh Oh, the archbishop of Guam is in the hot seat. Tell me, is there any end to the kiddie fiddler priests?
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Tell me, Bosco, before He comes again, is there any end to sin?
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Everyones a sinner. The playing field is level. But everyone isn’t a criminal child molester whos supposed to be a priest in the Church Christ founded. In my short but sweet life ive only known 2 guys who would have liked to molest young girls. Don’t know if they ever did.
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Glad you realise not every Catholic priest is that Bosco – keep it up, you’re learning.
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1Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
The scriptures give the saved comfort, knowing that we are kings and priests in his Kingdom.
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
Its obvious that in the comments here, no one comforts anyone with the gospel. The world is in trouble and you do not look unto the Rock from which you were carved. You do not seek the Lord and His Anointed. You trust In men and you are fearful of the future. How come you don’t seek your leader, your Pontiex Maximus, your Holy Father Lord God the Pope? How come he doesn’t come down from Vaticanus Hill and save the world? The born again have the peace which surpasses human understanding for their Rock is the Prince of Peace.
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Can you point to which part of that agreed with you that we don’t have to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars’s? You do know who said that, right?
Can you point, while you are at it, to where the Church teaches the Pope saves us? I think you have so many things wrong, you can’t think straight. When you know the Church Jesus has founded, you will. I pray for your conversion to the faith of Jesus rather than one you made up for yourself.
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I can just about quote the bible from memory…you should know this. What does render unto Ceasar things that are Ceasars have to do with trusting in Christ and His Gospel? Jesus said that while he was paying taxes.
Are you saying that your Holy Father is useless? Let me re phrase that….Are you admitting that your Holy Father is worthless? When he does his world tours he is surrounded by millions of devotees. Crying and praying and waving. What for? Hes more than a man. Hes the Vicar of Christ. Christs ambassador to the earth, and heaven and hell. His crown is triple layerd. He the ruler of heaven hell and earth. Why doesn’t he do something beside buy pizza for a few refugees?
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Parrots recite, and so do you; it is unclear that you have the same excuse as the parrot for not understanding. We have to work in the world and be part of it, so we can be the leaven in the dough – if we just comfort each other we fail in the great commission.
The church does huge amounts to help the poor and the destitute. The Pope is indeed the successor of Peter, but it is only the deluded who think he saves anyone – which was your odd claim.
This is what deprives you of any credibility- you keep making claims which any educated person knows are false. You claim to know Jesus and yet you peddle untruths – let’s see, how credible is that?
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Peter healed people thru Christ. People became saved thru PETERS SPEECH AND ACTIONS. Why doesn’t the Holy Father walk around healing people?
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For the same reason you don’t.
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15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Seems like the writer of Thessalonians says for us to comfort one another with these words of scripture. Now, if you noticed, the Lord comes for his church, and the dead rise first and then the living. Im quite sure the events are only seconds apart. Notice how the Lord doesn’t touch the earth, that He calls the saved up to meet him in the air. This is not the second coming. Its the Rapturos. He comes as a thief in the nite and steals away his body, the church. Cathols have good reason that they believe there is no rapturos. For them there is no rapturos. They are left behind.
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No one said we should not comfort each other, but we are also called to work in the world. Your theory of the rapture is a man made addition to the Faith – show me one person who believed it before very recent times. Another example of the non-Christian not understanding the book of the Church.
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I just quoted the passage of the saved being taken to meet the Lord in the air. What else do you need?
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Understanding would be a good place to start. Let us know when you get there.
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Ive been told the magisterium published a book about what the bible really means, seeing as how its been working on it for 1700 yrs. But I cant afford to purchase it from amazon. Ill have to stay in the dark until I get some money
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You seem to believe almost anything except the truth. This ought to worry you; it worries me as I care about you and your soul.
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VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis is asking people to unite in prayers for peace on Tuesday, when he’ll meet with leaders of other religions in the town of Assisi.
Whats the matter? Doesn’t the Vicar of Christ know that men will cry for peace and there will be no peace, and that swift destruction shall come on them? Jesus told us that. Oh, that’s rite…the Holy Father don’t care whats in scripture. He himself is expecting some queen of heaven to save his butt.
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Are you OK Bosco? That makes no sense, even by your very low standards of sense.
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Maybe I wasnt clear. Jesus said that men will be saying….Peace, peace, and there will be no peace. If The Holy Father was Jesus representative , he should know this. Instead of asking for peace, he should be warning people of the coming tribulation.
As in the time of the prophets, the religious leaders told the people that everything was OK. The prophets told them that they would go into captivity, and they were persecuted because of their testimony. Much the same as I am.
Jesus stands at your door knocking. Today is the day to open and let him sup with you. Tomorrow is promised to no man.
A time is coming where men will seek death but will not find it. Where the wrath of god is poured out without measure.
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So people have been saying for the past 2000 years – until He comes again, it is better to preach peace than wage war.
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Ok, that’s fine. Ill go with that one. Better peace than preach war.
So people have been expecting the wrath of god for 2000 yrs. Isnt it about time it arrived? First Israel had to become a nation again befor the end. Now its here again and the time is at hand.
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One day it will be. But each generation has thought it would come in their time.
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