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I do not know what it is about the word ‘love’ which brings out such venom here. The idea that we begin by responding to God’s love is Johannine. John does not say we respond to threats of hell-fire, we respond to love. To mention that seems to invite the charge one is ignoring repentance, but repentance follows, it does not precede God’s love. But there is, in the reaction to the use of the word ‘love’ something very aggressive, almost fearful; I don’t understand it.
I come to God because I felt, and have always felt, his love. It is that which draws me. we live in a post-Christian society, which is not the same as the old pagan world into which the Gospel first came. This society knows little about it, but it hears the noisiest voices in the public square, and they seem to speak in words which mean nothing to those outside the faith, and in accents of self-righteousness. Yes, if we are convinced we have the truth, we preach it; but being right and being self-righteous though often confused, are not the same thing. Any Christian can understand the anger at the way the world goes, but to respond, as many do, with anger and scorn is not only un-Christian (I cannot recall where Christ said berate those who hate you, mock those who do not agree with you – burt mayhap I have a different Bible?). We are adjured to respond with love – but Christians find this too hard a saying, and too often respond as they would to a political opponent So often we compound for the sins to which we are inclined by condemning those to which we are not – so I am not really expecting anyone to say they think that their scorn for others is sinful.
If what appears in the public square for those outside the faith to see is the equivalent of watching the famed kilkenny cats, only those with a taste for bloodsports – atheists like Dawkins of Christopher Hitchens, will stay. A friend of mine who is interested in the faith looked in here this week – she’s told me that she has had all her prejudices confirmed and politely asked my not to talk to her about it again.
I think my continued presence here is deleterious to my spiritual life. I have no wish to be told I am a heretic and am going to hell. If I stay here, it begins to feel I am already in the latter. I am, to the Roman Catholics here, a heretic anyway, and have done my best to explain my position. But the recent comments have not engaged with what I have said, but with what some here think I must have said. Mansplaining becomes wearisome. I wish you all well, and perhaps will come back one day – but for now, I am off – so good luck all.
All Along the Watchtower 
While I liked this post, it was simply out of loyalty to my dearest friend, it is the saddest post I have ever read. I must say, though, I am not surprised, and am very angry at those who caused it. But that is for another post.
For now dearest friend, I hated what I woke up to this morning, and now know why I woke early. But, I am not surprised, and understand completely why you leave, at this point.
Hale, and farewell. I will see you on the other side.
With my love,
Neo xx
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Speaking as one of those “Roman Catholics” I too am sorry to see you go. Without throwing about the word “heretic” which immediately raises the emotional stakes, we must accept that we belong to different Christian Churches in this forum and that Catholics, as Chalcedon has often explained cogently and charitably, have the most legitimate claims to be the Church founded by Christ. I have only just caught up with your recent articles and the commentary that followed. I ticked “Like” to several of Dave Smith’s posts as they struck me as both reasonable and charitable – and they accurately reflect the state of the Church today, alas. As a regular blogger I have also had to put up with unkind and personal attacks. I try not to take them too personally and I think you should do the same Jess; our personal feelings are surely less important that searching for the Truth and debating it with others.?
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Another casualty for the lost art of dialectic. I would that we could have used this forum to learn the craft better and grow in our ability to meet steel with steel on the battlefront and yet salute one another at the end of the fight and return to cross swords another day. But alas we no longer have the stomach for it.
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Dave – Jessica did succeed in something important; as a result of her last post, I now understand that I have much more in common with you than I previously thought. Yes – we disagree profoundly on esoteric matters of theology – original sin, whether or not Mary could be without sin, etc … etc …. everything which I consider was added on by the esoteric Catholic Scholastics of the middle ages who had nothing better to do with their time.
But I see that we are in strong agreement on moral decency, what it entails, what life guided by the Spirit should be like; in short, the morality that Christians should aspire to.
I can’t understand why someone could claim to be writing all about ‘love’, while sticking the knife into sincere servants of the Living God, who really are trying to spread the gospel. It looked thoroughly nasty to me – beyond what I would consider robust debate. The point where I sobered up and understood what was going on was the point where she brought the prodigal son into it and imagined that people like you and me would have a very different attitude towards the prodigal son than Jesus did. I can’t imagine that anybody on the receiving end of her vitriol would reject the prodigal son, or think it necessary to berate the son when he returned to his father confessing, ‘I have sinned’. It was the point where she brought the prodigal into the argument, in that context, that I understood what was truly in the heart and mind.
I was shocked by this revelation – I really had expected much better.
The blog has served a very useful purpose, though; I now understand much better what I have in common with people like you. Keep fighting the good fight.
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Thank you Jock and same to you. I respect your faith and I suspect you recognize that.
Let us not write this off yet until we hear from Chalcedon and what he plans to do. I still enjoy vigorous debate and the benefits of good argumentation. If it continues and folk like you stay, I will be here. If not, then I guess it was a concept for a site that was unique but destined to end at some point.
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We seem to be very divided on how we define “love”. It is a critical question for Christians, remembering that comment about the very early Church: “Look at those Christians; see how they love one another.” That comment was made when all Christians were still Catholic and had not split up into different Churches, so I dare say there was less for them to quarrel about. Today it is different.
Just to give you all an illustration: a Catholic friend of mine told me recently that one of her daughters, who describes herself as a Lesbian, has recently “married” her same-sex partner. (I put the word “married” into inverted commas not to show contempt for the people involved but because Christians believe that marriage, as ordained by God, can only be between a man and a woman). She went to the wedding “because I love my daughter.” Her Catholic husband refused to go to the wedding, “because he loves his daughter.” Which of them showed the greater love?
Fortunately my friend didn’t ask me for my views, as I would have had to tell her I agreed with her husband. It is not loving your daughter (or friend or whoever) to attend a ceremony that goes against a fundamental Christian belief and which makes a mockery of a Christian wedding ceremony. It gives scandal and the false impression that all is well. Doubtless, some people might think the father – and me – are bigoted and “unChristian”. But love must include truth. It was very hard for St Thomas More to look his former friend and King in the eyes and say, in effect, like St John the Baptist to another King, Herod, “The woman you are living with is not your legitimate wife”; and it must have been very hard for my friend’s husband, who has always been a devoted father to his large family, to have to say to his beloved daughter, “I’m sorry but I can’t attend your wedding.” But love, for Christians, will sometimes include the Cross; we cannot avoid it – though we often squirm and wriggle out of it (me included).
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Francis – I think that how we define love should be clear – do we want the best for someone, do we want to see them in the heavenly kingdom, do we pray for them and do everything we can to lead them in the right direction.
As far as the ‘gay marriage’ example goes – I don’t know if I’d go to the wedding or not; I probably wouldn’t, because I’d feel completely out of place, but somehow these ‘sexual sins’ between consenting people who like each other very much doesn’t bother me so much. I know it’s wrong and I wish they wouldn’t do it, but it’s not really something I can get my water heated over.
There are people in this world whom I hate, to my shame. These are people who have perpetrated grave injustice against me personally. There are 5 of them (various degrees of participation; some simply turned a blind eye to the slander and character assassination, because it was the easiest thing to do) and the worst thing about it was that two of the participants were Christians (Anglicans) who made their allegiance to the faith known. This was 26 years ago. Since then there hasn’t been the slightest hint of repentance from any of them and, to my shame, I can no longer pray (I could never pray very hard for this) that God would give them the gift of repentance. My only thought towards them is to think of the letter that Elijah wrote 2 Chronicles 21 v 15 ‘You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’ and I hope and pray that the Good Lord will, at some stage, inflict this punishment on them.
That is not love; that is pure hate and, as I indicated, it is very much to my shame. Much as I try, I find it utterly impossible not to hate these people. I emphasise that this is purely connected with a rather nasty piece of slander and character assassination against me personally. Everybody involved was straight, married and not divorced, white, anglo-saxon – and two of them were card-carrying Anglicans. There was no hint of any sort of sexual deviance at all – as far as that aspect of their lives was concerned, everything was in order. Nevertheless, they were much more evil than any of the people whom I have met who don’t stick to the creation ordinance of Genesis 2 (one man and one woman in a lifelong commitment to each other).
I pray about this; I know that I am supposed to love my enemies, but with these people I simply cannot do it.
With just about everybody else whom I encounter, I wish them well, pray for them, earnestly hope to see them in the heavenly kingdom and do anything I can (which admittedly is practically zero) to encourage them in the right direction.
On the matter of whether or not attending a gay marriage is an act of love, or whether or not Christians should do this – I simply don’t know and can’t answer. For me this would be a ‘theoretical’ question; I’ve never been in the position where I had to make this decision.
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Thanks Jock. Do you know the story of Corrie ten Boom, the Dutch Lutheran lady who was imprisoned by the Nazis at Ravensbruck for hiding Jews in her house in Haarlem? After the War she spent her life preaching the love of God; one day after a talk she gave, a man came up to her whom she didn’t know. He said to her, “I was a guard at Ravensbruck concentration camp. I have since repented and have become a Christian. Can you forgive me?” And he held out his hand. Corrie froze. All she could think of was the horror of the way the guards had behaved at the camp and how her sister Betsie had died there. In desperation she prayed to the Holy Spirit to help her and as she mechanically struggled to raise her hand she felt a surge of supernatural warmth surge up her arm, that made her grasp the outstretched hand in front of her and embrace the guard.
To forgive your enemies can only be done by the action of the Holy Spirit, working through you. Keep praying to Him and trusting yourself to Him and in God’s good time it will happen. When Jesus tells us to love our enemies, He knows we are incapable of doing this on our own; that’s why He sent us the Holy Spirit. the ‘sanctifier’.
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Francis – a beautiful comment and many thanks. Yes, I should keep praying – and we should pray for each other. Forgiving those who have sinned against us is the hardest thing – and anything that anybody has ever done to me is extremely minor in comparison with what goes on in the wide world. In fact, my minister James Philip always used to say that the Saturday evening prayer meeting was so important, because when you learned about what was going on in the world and on the mission fields abroad, they put your own problems into perspective (which made them very minor in comparison).
Yes – you’re absolutely right about this; we can only forgive our enemies by His grace and through the Holy Spirit.
In my case, I still find myself unable to forgive things, 26 years after the event, which are absolutely minor in comparison with the serious issues.
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I often have good discussions on spiritual matters with an agnostic friend. He respects my beliefs though he doesn’t have faith, and I respect his intellectual limitations. We have recently discussed the question of ‘evil’. Though he does not, obviously, have a Catholic understanding of it, he doesn’t cavil at the word (as some atheists do) and agrees that humans can sometimes be evil. The key is to respect your opponent and listen carefully to what he/she has to say – not prejudge the argument.
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Dear Jessica, an alternative strategy might be to continue writing your excellent and thoughtful pieces and let the com boxes alone. Why banish yourself when, as I have heard, you are committed as the originator of this blog to not putting the muzzle on others? Please reconsider.
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I am sorry, Jess, that you have felt that the atmosphere here is not conducive to your spiritual health.
As you know, my professional obligations are weighing heavily, and I have not been able to be here as I should have liked.
I think there has been a deal of misunderstanding – on both sides. It illustrates, too perfectly, your point about what happens when we build misunderstanding on misunderstanding.
I am profoundly discouraged.
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I won’t presume to speak for Jess, but in my estimation, you have done an outstanding job, especially considering how busy you are, and continue to be.
I think you have much right in the cause, as well.
I want to tell you not to be discouraged, but I won’t lie, I am as well.
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I have emailed Neo.
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I’ve replied, C.
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Such sad news, you will be greatly missed.
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Good sister Jess, don’t let these people get under your skin. Who cares what they think.
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Darling Bosco – thank you for this and for your other supportive comments. If nothing else comes of this, I hope others can now see what I have always seen in you, which is the love of God and the fellowship of the Spirit. What you have said here and elsewhere in your comments has touched me very deeply and helped me reconsider my hasty decision. So thank you, brother, and God be with you and yours. Jess xx 🙂
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Jessica and C, just look at today’s comments. Could they have been made in any other forum? And Jessica, you commented just the other day that this place was what you envisioned it could be. Don’t be discouraged, please. More later, I’m off to Mass.
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I am a Roman Catholic, I understand your faith under Dignitatis humanae and the current Catechism of the Church.
838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”
In the end, I simply trust the Grace of God and the Holy Spirit to be our guides
Jess, I’ve always enjoyed your responses to my comments, and will be sad to not have your responses in the future. Your explanation on Brideshead helped me greatly!
All of you, I will always extend Pax Christi to you. We are brothers and sisters of Christ. Perhaps, my perspective is different, My wife is a Lutheran and I am a Roman Catholic. I see every day that my wife believes in Christ than most Catholics I know. So much faith that it gives my faith strength. Those who I share this blog with give me strength.
You all inspire strength in my faith in a world which has lost God. In a world, where I wonder how long until I met the den of lions, I feel comforted by our conversations that I find time in the middle of my teaching preps to participate.
This is a great place.
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**I see every day that my wife believes in Christ more** than most Catholics I know.
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The comments were rough, but I believe that Jessica is in serious error. She takes John as the inspiration for love. Now, let’s see what John says. When I read 1 John, I feel thoroughly victimised. On the one hand, some of the verses seem to indicate, yes, I am in the number. Other chunks of it, though, tell me that I’m doomed. I read one commentator who described it as the ‘victimised reader’ approach to writing – and I strongly relate to that.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Does anyone at all here walk as Jesus did?
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All of the comments Jess made were with those who have not come to know Him in mind. The quote you give is therefore not relevant.
I think your comments were particularly hurtful and harmful and that an apology would be appropriate.
Frankly I am wondering if your lack of ability to forgive some and the hatred you have admitted towards them is a factor that has soured your spirit and that you need to reflect upon. I have been in that sort of trap myself in the past and know the damage it can cause. So with my admission of this fault I hope you can take my comments as coming from a brother in Christ concerned for situation that has developed.
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Rob – I have nothing to apologise for. It looked as if she was attacking people who were doing their God-given best and it still looks like that.
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Well, no. I don’t think so, not anymore. You amongst others drove her out. And that will be your loss. For those that learned from her, still carry her, and her Lord in their hearts.
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Bovine scatology! Come on NEO, Jessica has said that it was QVO’s comment, so please dismount from that high horse.
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Steve – it may well have been me. I wrote one particularly nasty comment in a moment of anger and I’m not sure I would have written it if I had taken 5 minutes to consider.
Having said that, I felt strongly at the time (and still feel) that she was trashing the best efforts of sincere people who were doing their God-given best.
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NEO – I made one nasty comment, in anger, which I probably would not have made if I had thought about it for five minutes before making it (or at least I would have phrased it differently). Having said that, she was (in my opinion) at that stage trashing the best God-given efforts of sincere people – and therefore I don’t feel inclined to retract or apologise; there would be no sincerity about it.
It’s quite weird; I found myself siding with people with whom I previously thought I had very little in common.
It’s her blog; she could have banned me (or asked me not to comment further) if she had wanted to – she herself didn’t have to withdraw.
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Jock apology may be difficult for you or you may now find it easier following your repentance the least you could do is to express to directly to Jess the sort of reply you made to Neo about your difficulty in making a sincere apology.
I suspected that anger had played a part in the trouble that has occurred. As I have said in the past I have been trapped by similar emotions of anger and un-forgiveness and due to pride escaped them only by considerable effort and the grace of the Lord. A scripture at the time that motivated me was James “The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God”.
May the Lord bless you and keep.
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Jock, we all do, sometimes, obviously, I just did in my grief, as well. probably shouldn’t have. But you know, if we get a few to think, it might be worth it.
For what it’s worth, I don’t really think it was any one individual, so much as a tone developing of hostility. You’re not exempt, neither am I, neither are any of us, really.
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Well said.
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Thank you, Steve.
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Wondering how to respond to this sad news. I would have given more input to the offending comments but was rather busy. I think there was a certain amount of talking past one another by people with different concerns and with perhaps with different folk in mind.
However I support the approach Jess took which far more closely follows Christ example in dealing with those designated publicans and sinners by certain religious types. The charge against her as a trouble maker was hurtful and unnecessary.
Jess I am wondering whether your resilience and ability to cope with such a ruff handling has suffered somewhat since your health challenges. I have certainly experienced time when I could not cope with this sort of thing. Whether I will continue with AATWT in your absence is seriously in question. I will miss you and your contribution to my spiritual life.
I wish you all the best and my prayers will follow you.
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I have just – belatedly – caught up with this situation. I have been dealing with three things simultaneously which were undoubtedly the work of the devil, and I have finally managed to get each of them sorted out and under some form of control. Now, this Sunday morning, I have found the devil has been at work here too. So sad that we forget the devil is most active in the very time – Lent – when we try to follow our Lord in the wilderness.
I was going to post here the Latin prayer of exorcism, but stopped myself just in time: those words should only be pronounced by a priest. I suggest instead that we use whatever form of prayer is appropriate to our different Christian traditions on this blog. The attacks of Satan can only be repelled in this way, and not by arguments, excuses, and failure to repent of evil.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner. Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus.
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Gareth – you’re right; the devil is at work here. I repent of my own part in it.
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I agree there is clearly a demonic element finding occasion in the flesh to cause this current situation.
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Agree, as well.
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Hear, hear!
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Jessica, I now understand from both NEO and Rob that it was my last comment which played the decisive role in driving you from your own blog.
I wrote it in anger, without any time for reflection. It was mean spirited and nasty and I apologise unreservedly for it.
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Well done Jock.
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I accept that unconditionally Jock. I also wish to apologise for the haste and content of some of my later replies. A reminder that we are all sinners, but as we are all forgiven, so must we forgive those who have trespassed against us, and from the bottom of my heart I forgive you and others, and beg your forgiveness too.
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Having contributed some long and carefully considered pieces for the first four Sundays of Lent, I am very saddened to see these developments. On reflection, I have decided not to contribute to the comboxes again here until after Easter.
It might be worth considering, for some who don’t contribute articles here, and maybe do not know how much time and work it takes, to put together your own articles for this blog occasionally. It is harder work than sniping from the sidelines and – you never know – you might develop some constructive ideas in the process.
I shall be writing an encouraging email to Jess. In the meantime, have a prayerful Lent, everyone. 🙂
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Fellow goes off for a few days, finds a mess when he comes back. I’m writing publicly on this for tomorrow. Just to say you take care, lass, and let’s hope now some of the tempers have cooled, we can sort this out – the devil has indeed been here – let’s band together to drive him out.
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Yes let us do so
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I have a sense, Rob, that something toxic here has been burst and the poison is draining off. I have one for Jessica coming up later if you are about.
What has been done here is too valuable to lose – unless we are fools of the wrong sort – fools for Christ is one thing, plain fools another.
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I will be out all day it’s a rather busy time, just replied to Jock and Dave – I will look in on your post this evening. Best wishes to you and yours.
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And to you Rob – you’ve played a noble part in helping defuse things here – blessed are the peacemakers … have a good day.
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