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Bible, Christ, God, Jesus, Rowan Williams, St. Isaac the Syrian
Jess has limited computer time, not least because of her scrupulosity in using her time at work for work, and so we will have to bear with her not always being prompt in answering our comments on her new posts. Thursday was an example when a comment went unanswered for that reason. Perhaps, she had already answered it.
Before her illness, she was privileged to attend a lecture by Lord Williams of Oystermouth, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, who was speaking on Dame Julian of Norwich. Mother Julian wrote the first book by a woman published in English, “Revelations of Divine Love”, and yes it is available, quite inexpensively, and yes, I have it, and it was one of my mainstays during Jess’ illness and the earlier part of her recovery. It is simply wonderful.
In the article for today, Jess compares what Lord Williams lectured on regarding Mother Julian and how it harks back to what her beloved St. Isaac the Syrian had to say about God’s love.
The anger of God
Why do we imagine God, the infinite and omniscient is angry with us? Is it because we are actually angry with ourselves and project that onto God? Do we really imagine God, who has created us to love Him, actually hates us? If He does/did, then the consequences for us would be much worse than we can imagine. Sin is the hard work we put in to avoid facing up to the fact that God loves us and His love is available to us if we conform ourselves to the pattern of His will for us. These are the main themes I took away from a lecture by the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, which I was fortunate enough to attend today.
He was speaking on Julian of Norwich, and one of his complaints was that some people have turned her into a ‘cuddly’ symbol of a God of easy Grace. That God loves us is not, he said, an easy option, because it requires something of us we find it hard to give; that, he explained, was why we are angry we with God. The key text from lady Julian’s revelation is this:
Then said our good Lord Jesus Christ to me: “Are you well satisfied with my suffering for you?” And I said: “Yes, good Lord, in your mercy. Yes, good Lord, may you be blessed for ever!” Then said Jesus, our kind Lord: “If you are satisfied, I am satisfied. It is a joy, a bliss and an endless delight to me that I suffered my passion for you. And if it were needful or possible that I should suffer more, I would suffer more.”
Christ rejoices in our happiness. He wants to know that we are made happy by His sufferings. He is human and he is divine. He suffers because we make him suffer, and yet as God he does it because of his love for us. He is not, Rowan Williams suggested, trying to settle some great legal debt which we owe him, he is trying to overcome our pride and the contrariness which makes us divide ourselves from Him. We cannot, he said, begin to imagine, or exhaust, God’s love.
I wish I there had been a recording available, and hope there will be, as Lord Williams’ thought is not easily captured, but so much of what he was saying chimed with my beloved St Isaac the Syrian. This God lady Julian encountered is the one St Isaac described thus:
“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the one who has preformed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”
The idea that love is in some sense ‘easy’, or the bringer of easy Grace, is part of how our sinful and fallen nature reacts to the immensity of His love; it must, says sin, be complicated and hard, and we must suffer much; that drives us away and closes our hearts; we might be saved, but few others. Our pride divides us from each other and from God’s love. As Julian of Norwich concludes:
I was taught that Love is our Lord’s meaning. And I saw very certainly in this and in everything that before God made us he loved us . . . which love was never abated and never will be. And in this love he has done all his works, and in this love he has made all things profitable to us, and in this love our life is everlasting. In our creation we had beginning, but the love in which he created us was in him from without beginning. In this love we have our beginning, and all this shall we see in God without end
Those, like lady Julian and St Isaac who have experience of the Divine showing know this, know its awful simplicity; we might, Rowan Williams suggested, humble ourselves and cease from mental strife for a moment to glimpse this miracle.
All Along the Watchtower 
Hello Neo. I’ll try to give an answer to this part of your Saturday Jess questions: “Why do we imagine God, the infinite and omniscient is angry with us? Is it because we are actually angry with ourselves and project that onto God? Do we really imagine God, who has created us to love Him, actually hates us? If He does/did, then the consequences for us would be much worse than we can imagine. Sin is the hard work we put in to avoid facing up to the fact that God loves us and His love is available to us if we conform ourselves to the pattern of His will for us. These are the main themes I took away from a lecture by the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, which I was fortunate enough to attend today.”
Monkey Wrench number 1531: Think about the Flood and the Ark Noah had to build to save a few from extermination by a really justly angered God. If that doesn’t set a mood, I’ll refer you to the incident of the Golden Calf and how if Moses didn’t manage to cool God’s wrath, He would’ve wiped those people from the face of the planet too and given Moses other people. Yeah, He did threaten to more than once. Once He did it.
Now, if the lovey dovey God most folks want to be looking out for them, look up just these two incidents in Salvation history, and honestly respond to them as they are, part of our Salvation History, then they may not feel that the lovey dovey God they’d like to imagine is going to judge then when their day comes so loverly.
Dies iræ, dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla,
Teste David cum Sibylla.
For our English speakers:
Day of wrath and doom impending.
David’s word with Sibyl’s blending,
Heaven and earth in ashes ending.
I suggest you find a copy of the Requiem of Mozart, put it on at a higher than usual volume and let it flow over you and see if it doesn’t do the work for which it is famous: shaking the boots of those who may feel their consciences are clear and they’ve a sure thing on that last day. It may help if you prayerfully read the words while listening. I’m confident it will help.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Not my question Ginny, Jess’. Although I’ve asked it a few times as well! 🙂 And in case you missed it, Lord Williams said much the same thing, “There ain’t no “Easy Grace”.
I’ll make it easier than that:
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/dies-irae/
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Nice, but do you own any Mozart???? It really is the best rendition of them all. Here’s a double dog dare: listen to it at Easter right before a really long check up with the doctor that is long over due and you know it!!! God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I listen to it every year at some point, it’s one of my favorites! What do I win?
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Three cheerios and fuzzy lollipop.
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Ginny – do we not have to accept that the Old Testament writers had an incomplete revelation of the true nature of God? Were that not the case, there would have been no need for a new covenant, so to draw conclusions based on a reading of the OT alone is a bit unbalanced, don’t you feel?
Why do you feel that God feels ‘anger’? How can an Infinite Creator be ‘angry’ and why would he? He created us with free will, he has perfect foreknowledge, therefore he must have known what would happen. He could have created us without that free will, he could have created us so we would love only him and not the devices and desires of our own hearts. We don’t know why he created us this way except it was his idea, and as he is perfect, the idea must have been the right one. To be that kind of angry with us would be like being angry with your child because it had picked up a knife you had left in the room – if you don’t want your kid to pick up a knife, don’t put one in the room; if you don’t want your creation to use free will, don’t give it to it.
In attributing human type anger to God we show our limitations; we’d be angry with us. True, but not one of us would sacrifice our only son for the sake of a sinner. So the big monkey wrench which wrecks the vengeful tribal God the Jews saw, is that one. The God who wipes out most of the world is also the God who promises never to do it again, and is the one who sacrifices the Second Person of the Trinity to save a bunch of miserable sinners. So there’s got to be more to it than fear. Did anyone come to love anyone by being frightened? That’s a weird sort of love.
God’s mercy and justice are the same, and as such beyond us. We come to him through love, and if we come that way, we love back, and perfect love casts out fear – surely? If you are frightened of God, can you really love him? I am a sinner who had a miracle, I didn’t deserve it, but I wasn’t frightened of dying, even when they said I was on my way out. I felt God’s love was very close and loved Him back – as I do every day. Fear? No, why should I be frightened of my daddy?
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O MOST loving Father, who willest us to give thanks for all things, to dread nothing but the loss of thee, and to cast all our care on thee, who carest for us; Preserve us from faithless fears and worldly anxieties, and grant that no clouds of this mortal life may hide from us the light of that love which is immortal, and which thou hast manifested unto us in thy Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. – Forms of Prayer to be used in Families–for Trustfulness, BCP 1928.
Humanity is disconnected from God as punishment. All humanity.
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We are not disconnected unless we malfunction – and because of the Fall we often do. The dark night of the soul of which St John of the Cross speaks and which Mother Theresa suffered is something many religious souls are tried by – and I am sorry you are tried by it so hard.
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god abandoned me.
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I suspect most have felt that from time to time – but he has not and never will.
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Went to Mass today. We had the Deacon’s Mass (clergy shortage in our church, the ACA–Anglican Church in America). Deacon’s homily was on our expectations and how often times we feel like they did not meet what we wanted or thought and they let us down. Really spoke to me.
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Hey NES, feelings aren’t facts, no matter who powerful they seem at the time. I’m just sayin’.
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This is beautiful NES. Thanks for sharing. God bless. Ginnyfree
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I think that we cannot merely put the OT writers in a context of ‘development’ but must understand that it was perfected and completed in Christ (not violated and overturned). And if God now, in the Second Person, has taken on our human nature (though, in absolute perfection) we do find anger along with all of the emotions we were given by our maker . . . though His would be called Holy Anger (as would ours if used as intended) . . . such as in the case of the money changers being whipped with cords etc. We see this as an act of love for God and for the House of God. His anger was justified: good and just.
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I agree it was completed in Christ, of course, but would be wary of thinking that the anger we have is from God, as I’ve always thought it was a product of the Fall. I am never too sure that we can drawn big conclusions from His cleansing the Temple, and wonder what the advocates of God being angry would do without it – there’s not another example of Jesus being cross. It’s all a bit deep for me I suppose 🙂
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Interesting thoughts Jess. It is one to ponder. My thought is that all our emotions reside in our nature . . . given to us by a loving God. Misuse of these (which would be a corruption of these gifts and attributes of human nature due to the Fall) is sin whilst proper use is laudable. All our emotions seem to be fine if they are made subject to selfless love. When motivated by self love is when we mostly find ourselves in the soup.
Another thing to ponder is how is God coming in the Parousia? Is it not going to be a time of justice (turning over the tables so to speak) and a time for cleaning out the Temple as the description in the NT seems to indicate? That seems compatible with Holy Anger and Divine Justice and it Mercy and Love for His House that would motivate it. At least that is how I view this tension between the Divine Attributes.
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I must be off in a moment, as supper is waiting, but let me quickly put up a couple of thoughts for later.
Our nature is flawed by the Fall, so anger may well be one of the effects of that – as I said to ginny, it would be odd for an omnipotent and omniscient God to be angry with his creation – he either knew what he was doing when he gave us free will or didn’t – and as he must have, I can’t see why he is cross with us. I can see why he is cross with sin and its effects – but that’s a different matter I think?
Oh yes, when he comes again sin and the devil will be quite vanquished and all the evil will be cast into the fires – but the anger is directed to that and not miserable mankind who has sinned. We can choose to ignore his love and cut ourselves off – but I hope we won’t 🙂 xx Must run!
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Ah Ha! I’ve figured it out! You were a raised to be a nice girl and nice girls NEVER get mad or raise their voices, etc. Oh dear. There is a thing called righteous anger and if channelled correctly with Temperance and Prudence can effect marvelous change for the better. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I hope I am a nice girl – I do try; indeed, I have been told I’m trying at times 🙂 Anger tends to distort one’s judgment; one might think one is being righteous when one is only being angry 🙂 Just a thought!
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RESPONSE TO GINNY (no reply button on her comment):
Mother was raised by an atheistic father who took her to church merely because he made a promise to her own mother that he would raise her a Christian. I doubt being one of those “nice girls” has anything to do with Mother’s situation of why she believes what she believes. She has written on more of her own personal journey other places on this blog.
Also, Mother most certainly does get angry. It’s not as expressive as most would express their anger but she does get angry. You haven’t looked at Mother and I having a discussion after I’ve cut myself.
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Jess there are 3 scriptures which come to mind and seem to provide a balance when we consider our own anger,
“The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God”.
And
“Be angry and sin not” along with “Do not let the sun go down on your wrath”
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Lovely ones Rob – and if only we can do them all will be well 🙂 xx
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One of the Divine Attributes, which BTW, are De Fide statements, is Immutability. God does not change. He is the changeless Triune God. Another Attribute that comes to mind for the sake of this discussion is the Attribute of Truth. He is absolutely truthful. Combining these two Attributes for this discussion shows that nothing at His core, His Essence, which is the source of these Attributes can be either changed nor denied. He will not change, nor will He communicate anything untrue. Both Scriptural examples demonstrate that an act of His Divine will called Justice happens but it gets tempered by Mercy. These are Acts of the Divine will certainly but they are NOT Absolute Attributes of God. If they were absolute Mercy couldn’t triumph over Justice as we are told it does in the Psalms.
If you see these two examples for what they are, demonstrations of the actions man’s deeds and sins have on the Divine Will, but not on any of His Attributes. God never changes in His inmost Being. He is Who is. That is the fundamental building block for understanding the Triune nature of God.
You state that Mercy and Justice are the same, but you and I disagree on that. The Church has always known and taught that these are two distinct and separate actions of the Divine Will. Mercy forgives sin, but Justice demands purgation of them. Mercy makes it possible for this to happen in this life, i.e. Penance, prayers, alms deeds, indulgences, etc. but this is all done in response to the debt owed to Justice. Do you at least see where we differ in understanding?
The Old Testament is revealed in the New. The New Testament lies hidden in the Old. They are interdependent. The Old had to come before the New. The New does do away with the Old. Marcion is the fool who dismissed the Old entirely. He even had his own Canon for the Scriptures that also excluded many NT writings as well. There is too often found a shadow remaining of his heresy in many Protestant denominations. It is usually noticed as a lessening in importance placed upon the Old Testament or in some other ways, such as Luther’s elimination of the infamous seven books. If he had held the Old Testament in a right minded regard with righteous piety and fear of the Lord, he never would have even considered doing what he did. It is Marcion’s shadow that he stood in.
Okie dokie Jess, it has been nice chatting with you. You are an enigma around here and know I can say I know of whom they speak. Glad you’re on the mend enough to drop by to add your two cents. I will pray for all you body parts to find some sort of agreement amongst themselves. My body is in revolt too. It stinks. I take so many pills I might rattle when I walk!
God bless. Ginnyfree
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Here’s something that might motivate Holy Anger and should, I think: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/12/saint-peters-basilica-desecrated-by.html
Maybe a few tables ought to be overturned and these New Agers driven from the House of God with a whip of cords.
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No Comment. Seriously.
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God does not change, of course 🙂 We, however, are not God, and our attempts to understand the Infinite do change and develop. We see this in the Bible, where it is clear that after the Resurrection the understanding of the Evangelists had developed beyond even what it was before the great event – so we see the rather weak and fearful men of Good Friday transformed by the knowledge of the Risen Lord. It is so with Christians in relation to the OT – of course it was never abandoned, but we see in it things no one did before the Resurrection – we see even the future Apostles puzzled by what Jesus said in reference to Isaiah’s suffering servant, and Peter, of all people, rejecting the idea that Jesus had to suffer. They, and we, know better now 🙂
All of that being so, we have, as you say, to read the Old in the context of the New. The God we come to know there is far beyond having ‘anger’ against his creation – as I say in the piece, God’s anger is directed at sin itself and its effects on us.
You don’t answer what I said about love and the Father. The Father is not someone who will beat us up if we don’t do as we’re told – He loves us, and if we respond, we know that, and we love back 🙂 xx
Sorry to hear your body is giving you gyp – hope for some relief for you and will pray 🙂 xx
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Remember the old one: there is a time for every purpose under Heaven, etc. Anger is listed.
Once we are justified in Christ Jesus, what we do is just. And that can even be a sin. Hate to use the OT again, but not long after the 10 Commandments were given to the Israelites including “Thou shalt not kill” God directed the systematic slaughter of whole nations of peoples by these men who had to go into the Promised Land with a very raised sword. They sometimes even had to slaughter the women and the children too. Sometimes even God did the killing for them when He sent hornets to sting some to death. The OT has lots of stories of this kind. Yet these acts were all justified in Christ Jesus thusly they were counted as righteous in the eyes of God whose Son’s redemptive death reached backwards in time to justify these men, otherwise their acts would not be considered glory to God and men in their chronicles. Although the fullness of their justification in Christ Jesus couldn’t be realized until His actual death on the Cross because of Original Sin. The only person who had that singular grace of complete justification in Christ Jesus was Mary. But at the NT says clearly in several places, He justifies many.
Oh good gravy. I’ve said too much. Sounds like I’ve read too many books or something. I should go get some ice cream after this afternoons Confession or something silly to get my mind off the books.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Where does it say that he commanded it in anger? I say it was done to protect his people, the current example being the necessity of a war on ISIS. That’s not anger, that is protecting the innocent.
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I think we’ve established that the old dispensation needed updating by the new. We nowhere see Jesus say ‘slaughter your enemies’ – quite the opposite. That being so, surely the command to slaughter your enemies has been superseded by the command – much harder – to love them? It is always to the OT people go for the smiting, but if we have to read in the light of the New, I think smiting is a bit old hat.
I agree Christ redeems all sins, but he says nothing about smiting and a lot about love. I’ve found this disturbs those who prefer the former to the latter – but it’s good for them to be disturbed 🙂 xx
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Look Jess, I’m a Catholic. I don’t mince words calling the Old Covenant a “dispensation.” I don’t consider myself excused from anything because of an imagined unconditional love God has for me that will cover all my debts at my time of judgement either by some imagined “Old Dispensation,” or a “New and Improved Version/Dispensation” with even more loopholes than the last. Hello?
You may not agree with me at all, and that is okay. But please don’t expect my way of seeing things to be “corrected” by yours. I do value the talk with others who have dissimilar opinions regarding faith and morals, etc. simply because it broadens my perspective and sometimes gives me deep pause to value the gifts I’ve been given by simply saying to my self, fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum as Mary did in total trust and reminding myself all the time that His will is much better to live by than to find “dispensation” from.
To me it is simply the theology of presumption which happens to be the Grand Marshall of the Parade of folks willing to go to Hell laughing off all that God has laid upon us as Christians. Don’t take the name Christian in vain. Live it proudly. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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By new dispensation I meant Covenant – do you not think there is a New Covenant which fulfil;a and surpasses the old? It’s there in the Bible. I think I can’t be understanding what you mean here.
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Actually Jess in response to your understanding that God cannot be angry in a simple sense at His creation that would cause it harm because of His anger is a bit lacking. This may help: 2 Peter 3:3-14 – “Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come [to] scoff, living according to their own desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; 6 through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. 7 The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. 8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.h
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. 11 Since everything is to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought [you] to be, conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire. 13 But according to his promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.”
The dirt under your feet is reserved for a fire that will destroy is down to its very elements as well as the entire universe. God’s love will accomplish this. It is a result of sin. Once this world of sin has been destroyed and all done in it found out and Judged, (see Matthew’s account of the separating of the sheep and the goats, I’m sure you are familiar with it) THEN a New Heaven and a New Earth will be made and a New Jerusalem will be found for those of us who are worthy to dwell with the Lamb for all Eternity in His Light.
Now, knowing like I do that God’s Word will destroy this earth by fire, as He said, why would I even want to think His “love” will cause Him to not carry out His Words to that effect? He said elsewhere, the heavens and earth will pass away but not His Words. His Word is Eternal like Himself and He will not pass away. His will will accomplish all He has said. Hope this helps.
Get a few good Catholic books on Eschatology. It tells the rest of the Story. Sin is cause of all that destruction, not an emotion called anger. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I’m not sure I understand how any of the good things you say here don’t fit with what I wrote. Fire has many meanings – and we are and will go through the Refiner’s fire – it doesn’t mean we shall literally be burned. I think a lot of harm comes from taking some of these things literally – it is why we used to burn each other – I can’t think that at the Last God will be saying ‘well done’ to those who burnt people – nasty thing to do.
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Oh dear! Oh my. I made a tragic typo above: seems it got twisted to read something horrid: Here is the boo boo: “The Old Testament is revealed in the New. The New Testament lies hidden in the Old. They are interdependent. The Old had to come before the New. The New does do away with the Old. Marcion is the fool who dismissed the Old entirely. He even had his own Canon for the Scriptures that also excluded many NT writings as well. There is too often found a shadow remaining of his heresy in many Protestant denominations. It is usually noticed as a lessening in importance placed upon the Old Testament or in some other ways, such as Luther’s elimination of the infamous seven books. If he had held the Old Testament in a right minded regard with righteous piety and fear of the Lord, he never would have even considered doing what he did. It is Marcion’s shadow that he stood in.”
I don’t know how it happened, but it should say to exact opposite: the New Testament doesn’t DO AWAY with the Old. My little “n’t” is missing. That is tragic and seriously misinforming. Hope everyone else caught it without harm. Oh dear! A seriously bad TYPO! Sorry. I apologize. Please forgive me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Nice to see you QVO. I’ve learned a lot from you. Hope you have a happy and fruitful Advent. Don’t be a total stranger. It was fun mincing words with you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I prefer the use of the word “wrath” myself. Give the real fell to Hell fire and brimstone kind speeches. Nothing like the good ole wrath o’ God to straighten ’em all out every now and again.
Sodomites leave God few alternatives, no matter how may shrinks they get to wrap their party favors up with. Otr should I say party favorites. I hear a certain guy in NY is being sued by the parishioners in order to recoup some of the monies that got embezzled by one priest whose name I won’t use, to pay off and for a few cuties and boy-toys. He parked one of his favorites in a house in Jersey. Oh yuk. The details are truly gross. Get a gander at his pic at Church Militant and you see why father had such a hard time saying “no!” If you can stomach that, you’ll know why the term wrath of God fills my heart with a special joy.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/archdiocese-of-ny-and-cdl.-dolan-sued-over-homosexual-priest-stealing-milli
P.S. This is the very kind of stuff Boscovites loves too, but for an entirely different reason.
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P.S. I particularly love this part of Peter’s Letter regarding the end of the world as we know it: “10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. ” It simply means to me that every Cold Case on the Planet will be CLOSED! Amen, amen, amen. I’m still waiting for a resolution about a certain murder myself. I may have to wait till the Last Day, but on that Day I will see exactly Who Dunnit and why and how God deals with all that Jazz! Imagine that: every deed done on the home turf will be made known and here’s the clincher: every one will actually see the Final Judgement passed by God on everything done and those who dunnit and we will rejoice on that day. Jeremiah and Revelation show that but I’m too lazy to share any more. Read it yourself. Or like my dear ole Mom used to say when I begged an answer with the books tow feet from my fingertips, “look it up yourself.”
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