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Catholic Church, Catholicism, Christianity, controversy, history, orthodoxy, st cyril of alexandria
One of the more unprofitable of the many unprofitable discussions we have here, is with those, like our friend Bosco, who seem to take it as axiomatic that God is against art in acts of worship. Their text is Exodus 20:4 and their reading of it ignores Exodus 26:1, Exodus 25:22 and anything else which suggests that what God objects to is our worshipping images, not making beautiful things in his honour. It is not just a peculiarity of the impoverished aesthetic of our society in matters of liturgy that men can think as Bosco does. There was a major outbreak of iconoclasm in the Eastern Roman Empire in the eighth century, partly influenced by the Muslim objection to the use of images. The great defender of icons, John of Damascus wrote that he did not worship matter, “but rather the creator of matter”; he did, however, add: “I also venerate the matter through which salvation came to me, as if filled with divine energy and grace”. The Church decided against iconoclasm, though from time to time, not least during the Reformation, it reared its ugly head and did tremendous damage to the material heritage of Christian culture in this country. One of the things which the Ordinariate brings to the Roman Catholic community in this country is a keen sense of the damage which an impoverished sense of the aesthetic does to the church.
The Anglo-Catholic tradition has always held that the Liturgy is the continuation of the Paschal mystery, and of the High Priestly work of the Redeemer; it is, in the words of Aidan Nichols, ‘an essential sacral reality which joins heaven to earth’. Sacred time and space are special, and as such require something more than the commonplace; the aim of liturgical beauty is to arouse in us a longing for the full vision of God. That means that the Liturgy itself, and the surroundings in which it takes place, should try to reflect the importance of what is occurring. Pusey, who followed closely the theology of St Cyril of Alexandria here, held that communion with the body and blood of Our Lord transformed the communicant – a version, if you like, of what the Eastern tradition calls theosis. Such a solemn and mystical experience requires an architecture, music and setting which reflects these things. Pugin’s architecture sought to recapture something of the numinous beauty of the Gothic style, and to create spaces in which man’s being would be prepared by the beauty of holiness for the transforming effects of the Eucharist.
This is a far cry from the practice of the Roman Catholic Church in this country since the 1960s. There may be uglier buildings than many of the churches designed for the RCC during that period, but if so, they have tended to be shopping centres, many of which have, mercifully, been destroyed. A banal architecture and banal liturgy are not fit offerings to God, they reflect a concern with ourselves and our worldly concerns; they do not help lift us towards our encounter at the Eucharist feast with Our Saviour.
Sadly, we live in an age which seems to fail to understand symbolism, although it uses the word ‘logo’ incessantly, and goes on endlessly about the importance of ‘branding’, so you might think it could grasp the rudiments of a sacramental universe; our forefathers had no such problem. From this point of view, one begins to see why it might be that among the Bishops of England & Wales there was a lack of enthusiasm to receive, as a corporate whole, a body of Christians used to rejecting modernism in all its forms. Once more, one is struck by the genius of Benedict XVI, a man who, more than most, appreciate the beauty of holiness, and whose lived experience of the Liturgy infused him with a high doctrine of the Eucharist – or was it the other way around?
NEO said:
Indeed. While worship is warranted and valid in all places and times, few things are more solemn than mass offered on the hood of a jeep in sight of the front lines, with mud smeared over everything.
While that is so, I think it is important to remind ourselves of the beauty, and even the otherworldliness of our faith. Of course, no one thinks we can approach the loveliness that God provides, we should, I think, bring to worship, our best, in buildings, in furniture (both senses), in liturgy, and, in fact, in our dress and deportment. Anything less has always struck me as impertinent at best.
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chalcedon451 said:
I agree Neo.
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NEO said:
Thank you.
And I see that my finger slipped and did not capitalize Mass. I do know better, and apologize, to any who noticed.
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chalcedon451 said:
I understood – easily done in this medium 🙂
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NEO said:
It is, my keyboards do seem to develop a sticky shift key, perhaps overuse. 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
Or in cases an excess of spittle? 🙂
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NEO said:
Now and again, to be sure! 🙂
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St Bosco said:
Better dress up nice for god. You know how he hates t-shirts and jeans
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NEO said:
Why would you not wish to meet God looking your best?
I don’t know about you Bosco, but when I go to important functions, I dress better than I do to shovel manure. What is more important than having a visit with God.
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chalcedon451 said:
Jesus is king. Tell us what happened to those invited to the feast who did not come in the right clothes. The tell me how what you just wrote fits with what Jesus says.
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St Bosco said:
Go to meet god? Next time you see him, would you be a dear and tell him hi for me?
I need to know what the right clothes are, then I can comment.
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chalcedon451 said:
You know your Bible. Tell us what happened to those invited to the feast who turned up in the wrong clothes.
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St Bosco said:
Ill get back to you. Im walking out the door. I have to work once in awhile.
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chalcedon451 said:
Hope it goes well
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St Bosco said:
I thought you would be the last to think god is a respecter of persons. A wedding garment must have been a traditional thing in Hebrew weddings. A special type of clothes. Just for weddings. Heaven is like the wedding. To get in, what must we be wearing? We must be coverd in the Blood of the Lamb.
I don’t see how you take it to mean nice expensive designer cloths. Jesus never cared about what someone wore. But the unsaved care. Everything for the eyes.
Well, its true, the unsaved are blind to the spirit. What to doo? Ask to be born again.
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chalcedon451 said:
I just quote Scripture – and you just ignore it.
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St Bosco said:
Thatsp retty good . Bosco ignores scripture. Thanks for bringing that up.
Lets take stoch here;
Bosco doesn’t
1. repeat prayer as a formula for sin removal
2. call holymen father
3. use graven images in worship or prayer
4.doesnt bow down befor graven images
5believe men ion costumes have power to bring god from heaven
6. believe men have to pay for their own sins.
7. believe in a queen of heaven(which god hates)
These are all scriptural.
Happen to know any group that does do all these things?
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chalcedon451 said:
Do show us where Scripture says God hates a queen of heaven. While you fail at that, try redeeming your earlier fail by showing how the Bible says God is fine with casual dress when he invites you into his house.
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St Bosco said:
16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
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chalcedon451 said:
You read, but you cannot understand. It is not your book, so not your fault.
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St Bosco said:
I cant show you where god is fine with casual dress. Because god never talks about it. He don’t care if your naked. He made you naked. Eve andGood brother Adam were naked befor god. Eve got the big idea to listen to the snake. Like you idolaters do with the CC. The CC says…yea, god hath said not to make graven images or to bow befor them , but, its Ok, because of this reason and that reason.
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chalcedon451 said:
God does, in the parable Jesus told, which, as usual, you failed to understand. The Church understands God’s words; after all, God used it to tell us there was a Bible and what was in it.
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St Bosco said:
It says god is against a queen of heaven. Tell me, how do you get that god loves a queen of heaven out of that? Im dying to see.
One more thing for all you Bosco haters….I put out a pledge…..show me where god has us make statues of men or woman and ill go the hell away. Good brother Chalcedon usually uses my coupons, but this time, I get silence.
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chalcedon451 said:
As I have said, we see the Queen of Heaven in Revelation; God does not hate her. Since God only forbids worship of statues, he has nothing to say about using them to glorify him. This is clear to anyone who understands Scripture.
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St Bosco said:
Youre going to have to cut and paste where it says this woman in Rev is the queen of heaven.. I can show you where she fled and hid in the wilderness. Some queen of heaven. Running like a big fat chicken.
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chalcedon451 said:
Just look at any Catholic Bible commentary, Bosco.
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St Bosco said:
I believe you and the unbiased catholic commentary say Mary is queen. Now if you would be so kind as to cut and paste where Rev, or any scripture says Mary is this woman, or a queen of heaven, ill be most grateful. Thanks.
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chalcedon451 said:
Here you go, Bosco http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/mary-queen-of-heaven-the-bible-tells-me-so
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St Bosco said:
Mary is Jesus mother, therefor she is all powerful in heaven and earth. Why didn’t I see that befor. I feel so ashamed. She stood next to Jesus thru his whole earthly ministry, right at his side granting favors to all who asked. The new test speaks of little else.
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chalcedon451 said:
Now who has said that Bosco? You do exaggerate.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Chalcedon was telling me how the pinecone is a Christian symbol of this, and that other thing is a Christian symbol for the other thing, and so on. Ive lived in a Christian atmosphere all my life and never ran across this symbolism.I think good brother is saying these are catholic symbols and confuses it with Christian. Catholic is not Christian..its catholic.
I don’t mind art. I do oil on canvas myself.
If I can convince one person to lorsake that false religion, its all worth it. Not just walk away, but fall on ones knees and ask Jesus to come into their life. To do this I point out that a religion that supplies graven images for its flock to use and bow down befor, is desperately wicked.
Yes the devotees will call it art and say they don’t worship the images…it makes them feel better.After all, its where they stake their salvation, in the CC. It cant be wronLook at the wonderful above pic. I think ill put that in my graven image site cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com. I couldn’t have chose a better pic.
Are those statues all of men and created by human hands? They are fashioned(graven) by human hands, correct? That’s all I need say.
If one can go back to pahan rome, one would see temples full of these statues of men with costume holymen walking amongst them, directing the faithfull to the god that will satisfy their need. I believe its St Joseph that finds lost car keys. And the list goes on from there. Amazing people still fall for that.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, read what St John of Damascus said – it is in the post. You seem to be if the view that despite founding a Church, Jesus forgot about it. He didn’t. The way to come to him is to knock on the door of his church – and he answers. You have lived in an aesthetically impoverished culture all your life – you deserve more.
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St Bosco said:
Everything for the eyes, nothing for the soul.
My god want worshipers in spirit and truth. Neither of which one can see.
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chalcedon451 said:
Your God may, but the God of Abraham and Isaac seems to disagree and also wants visible beauty.
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St Bosco said:
God had a temple made and he decorated it. He had one temple. He didn’t authorize any more. Plus, if cathols insist that its OK to make images because there were images in the temple, well, make the same images. I put out this challenge….find where god had a statue of a human in his temple… and I will make a heart felt apology to everyone in here and go away and not come back.
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chalcedon451 said:
Nor did he forbid any more either – unless you can show us that brother Paul was wrong founding all those churches. You miss the point about the beauty of holiness, but I fear you wouldn’t know it if it bit you, poor thing.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Paul found churches. That means he spread the good news. Believers would gather together somewhere. At a home, or park, or wilderness. Good brother Paul didn’t go around building buildings…he converted souls. Please don’t tell me you think good brother Paul went around having buildings made with graven images in them for people to use in worship? That would be too much for me.
Im waiting for some enterprising Bosco hater to show me where god had a statue of a man made. Come on, you can do it. There must be some official document that allows it. For gods sake…your temples are overflowing with graven images of sinful men. Come on people…stick up for your religion.
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chalcedon451 said:
Paul founded churches, and his converts worshipped also at synagogues. Have you ever been into a synagogue Bosco? They are not plain inside. Your problem is you have neither a sense of history nor balance. You have now been shown many times that the objection to graven images is to the worship of them. Your point about statues is irrelevant. It would be reek an only if we worshipped them.
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St Bosco said:
Nice caveat. Only if we worship the statue. Do what you like with the statue. My point is; a religion that uses them, and in a mighty way like the CC, is false and wicked. In Jeremiah it says not to make statues of men or women. Doesn’t have a caeat about worshiping them. Second thought, it might be Deuteronomy. Oh well, its all the same book. Bible is clear…do not make images of male or female for worship purposes. Its up to you to tell god its OK. Anyway, why does one need the works of men hands in order to worship or pray? Ill tell you why. Because behind every idol is a demon. And the unsaved cant do without their demons. Befor I was saved, I used to have my mom buy me glowing skeleton heads every time we went to Disneyland. They inspired me to spookiness. I loved it.
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chalcedon451 said:
That is your point. It is not God’s. You miss the point again with Jeremiah, this showing those outside the church cannot understand what God says. Come in and you will.
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St Bosco said:
It says not to make male or female statues. If I joined the CC would the words change?
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chalcedon451 said:
You read words, but attach no sense to them. In ancient times people made statues to worship. That God forbids. That the Church also teaches. If you really believe that the Church God used to give us the Bible understands it less than you do, then you effectively say God did not know what he was doing. I believe God knew what he was doing.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Chalcedon, would you be a dear and thank the CC for taking the bible off the list of banned books?. Im glad they got around to it by 1963. Cause id hate for them to come grab me and burn me alive for owning a bible, like they used to do for the last thousand yrs. Oh, and thank them for giving us the bible too.. Wasn’t that a catch 22?
“here you go people..heres the bible. Ho Ho Ho. And if we catch you with it we will burn you to death…Ho Ho Ho. Merry Christmass.*
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chalcedon451 said:
You’ve been at those websites again. The RCC disliked inaccurate translations, and had the view that in the hands of the unsaved, the book would be misused and misunderstood – something you prove here most days.
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St Bosco said:
Did that give the pure and white catholic church the right to burn people to death, for having a bad translation? Come now, the CC just didn’t want anyone to have a bible, once the CC saw what was in it.me, do you agree that burning at the stake was what people needed if they had a bad translation? And are any of these bad translation around? Im willing to bet they all said the same thing. Well, thank the for not burning us anymore for owning a bible
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chalcedon451 said:
I think you need to provide some evidence of people being burnt for having a Bible, Bosco. Certainly people were fined, but I can find no record of anyone being burnt for having a Bible. You provide a good example, Bosco,of the danger of the under-educated but over confident reading the Bible without guidance.
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St Bosco said:
Oh, they just fined them. Oh, well that’s understandable. I don’t know where I got this burning at the stake stuff from.
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chalcedon451 said:
From one of the dodgy website you frequent?
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newenglandsun said:
C, I don’t see where St Bosco comes from when it comes to iconography. Although I used to be like him with wanting as few images in church as possible, growing up in an exceptionally “low church” Evangelical Christian family, I truthfully hated their services–loud music, boring music, dumb music–they always considered me a blasphemer because I thought their worship services were so dull and boring and more related to corny pop music than anything else.
The moment I stepped into a Byzantine liturgy and looked at the icons and the iconostasis, I admittedly didn’t know what to do with it at first–it was quite different than what I grew up with and I always knew the verses that Bosco uses–“don’t worship images!” But I couldn’t help as I attended more and more Byzantine liturgies eventually grow accustomed to the icons and the colour they provided and the gateways to God which they truly are all made possible by the incarnation, prayer, and fasting.
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chalcedon451 said:
Your response was that which, if people had the experience you had, would come naturally; we respond the the beauty of holiness; but if we do not know beauty, then some respond with a snarl – subconsciously resenting their deprivation. That may be where Bosco is coming from; although there is the view here that he is coming from California, which seems to explain anything and everything 🙂
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St Bosco said:
I have seen the light as good brother newengland did. Do not make graven images means to make as may as my temple can hold. A weight has been lifted from me. Ah, thank you Father Corapi.
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newenglandsun said:
Bosco, just about everyone on this blog wants to see your soul lifted up to God rather than you feeling like you have to work yourself up to God.
If the Catholic images truly bother you and you cannot reconcile your view of the Bible with them, maybe try an Anglican/Episcopalian or Lutheran church. They use imagery in their worship but they don’t worship it (kind of like Evangelicals with a cross in their church that isn’t venerated).
They still embrace the eucharist like the Catholics do (albeit more like consubstantiation than transubstantiation) and this will lift you up.
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St Bosco said:
Yes, the golden sun symbol will lift me up. Thank you Baal.
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St Bosco said:
: “I also venerate the matter through which salvation came to me, as if filled with divine energy and grace”.
Venerate matter. At least hes honest. Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to venerate an object. Just the opposite. But the bible wouldn’t speak of idolaters if there were no idolaters. Im guilty of idolatry.But Jesus has been dealing with me on that subject. He takes away anything I get too fond of. I mean, literally, takes it from me. Jesus chastises the ones he loves. The unsaved go week after week, yr after yr, to temples filled with the works of their own hands, and bow befor them and have them direct their prayers and inspire them to holiness.
That was god main beef with men in the OT. They kept using objects to aid their spiritual life. Some just made images of false deities, like the Hebrews. They followd the false god of people around them. Hezekiah came alone and broke up the images. He did gods work and god was pleased.
Oh, but our graven images are good and god loves them.
Tell god when you see him in his gold cage . Don’t wait til the great judgment. That wont work then.
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chalcedon451 said:
If you reread the OT you will see that God’s beef was with people worshipping statues; where do you get the idea he didn’t like them using images to help their spiritual life? Moses’ serpent is a good example. God asked Modes to make it to help the people – he inky objected when they worshipped it. This point you keep missing because like all unsaved, you don’t understand the book canonised by the Church founded by Jesus.
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St Bosco said:
That snake had a one time use. People looked at it and were healed. They started venerating it. Some stup might have worshiped it. But in every case, god had the images destroyed. Come on, get with it. God told Moses that he showd the Hebrews no form when he set down on Horeb. Why? God said that the people would corrupt themselves and make an image. Let me make this clear…god said making an image is corruption.You got that?
Oh but our church says its a wonderful thing to have images.
Time to change church. May I suggest Islam. They don’t use images, at least.-+
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chalcedon451 said:
Again, you read but fail to understand. God’s objection is to the worship of statues. As no Catholic worships statues, your argument has no point.
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St Bosco said:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
It says not to make them in the first place. It says not to bow thyself befor them. Nothing about whats going on in your head…just don’t bow befor them. Nor serve them. Look how the faithful decorate the Mary graven images. The put clothes on it, a gold crown on it, pearl necklace on it, put it on a platform and carry it on their shoulders. Is this not true? All you have to do is come to my idyllic site and see them. Cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com.
Yes, your religion the CC serves these graven images. For your own good, think about it.
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chalcedon451 said:
Again, though you read, you do not understand. But why should you? That book is not your book, you are not part of the church which says it, and it alone, is the Bible. Your bible does not even have all the books in it. Jesus said those not of his flock would not understand; you prove it.
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St Bosco said:
Yeah, maybe youre rite. Not being catholic I don’t understand the 2nd command. Or any of it. I guess if I were catholic, id be on my knees befor a crying Mary plaster cast, and lovin it.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, but you would see how silly those comments are.
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St Bosco said:
You keep saying I accuse cathols of worshiping a statue. I never once said that. I said your religion has them there for you to use. I don’t think you personally care for statues, I know you better. But most Catholics use them, for what ever. That is wickedness.
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chalcedon451 said:
I say that because it is the worshipping of statues to which God objects, not their existence.
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St Bosco said:
One last question, how did these images, statues, come into existence? Thanks in advance
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chalcedon451 said:
Which ones?
God gives men and women artistic talents. Why do you think they should not use those talents to glorify him?
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St Bosco said:
Since they cant` walk, we are commanded to carry them on our shoulders. The OT speaks of little else. I have seen the errors of my way. Forgivve me Father O Brian.
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St Bosco said:
Oh, OK, they are made by human hands. Thanks.
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chalcedon451 said:
Did you suppose they were made by aliens?
The point is so simple you keep ducking it. God gave us talents. If we use those talents to glorify his name though making his house beautiful, where is the idolatry?
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Mark said:
Chalce, try the marriage supper of the lamb with bisto, you won’t get anywhere but it might shed light on the eschatological marriage feast and the meaning of a Christological sacrifice in the Eucharistic sense. Or don’t bother, your wasting your breath with him anyway, failing that try St Jude or St Cabrini
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St Bosco said:
What about the marriage supper of the Lamb?
Christological sacrifice in the Eucharistic sense
What the devil is that? More religious mumbo jumbo I guess. Try to show how much you know about spiritual matters.
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chalcedon451 said:
A good thought Mark, but he seems to have trouble with anything save the most reductive view of anything he reads.
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St Bosco said:
After soul searching and re reading bible, I have realized that you are correct.You tried to tell me but I wouldn’t listen. You must be very wise. Tell me, how did you know that the command….do not make any graven image of anything nor bow to them actually means to make as many images as we can and fill our temoles full and our homes full to the top with them and bow befor all of them. Boy, was I wrong. And call no man on this earth Father actually means to call every holyman Father, by the truck loads. Gosh, im so embarrassed. And when Jesus said not to do vain repetitions, he actually meant to do as many repetitions as the holyman tells us, and do even more during our waking hours. And forbidding to marry is a doctrine of demons relay means to find a religion that forbids all its clergy and nuns to marry and join it.Doctrine of demons really means that I should embrace it and consider it godly. Oh how wrong ive been. Good brother, how did you get to be so smart. I stand in awe.
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chalcedon451 said:
You tend to swing to extremes Bosco. Try looking at it this way. God does not want us to worship images, but he does want us to worship him. He gives us various talents so that we might serve him. Do you think that, having approved of the use of those talents in Solomon’s temple to glorify him, he has forbidden their use everywhere else, even if it is in his service? When you put it like that, you might see how ridiculous your usual position is.
On the father issue, a moment’s read of the Bible would give you context. Paul often calls him churches his children, making him their father [see 1 Corinthians 4:14-16]. Jesus is talking to a particular audience about the scribes and pharisees, which is why Paul felt free to talk about himself as a spiritual father.
All these things are revealed to those who are part of the real Church, and they are hidden from those self-willed souls who think they know it all.
The first step to wisdom is the admission of the fact one does not know it all.
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St Bosco said:
Forgive me Father for I have sinned. I used to think it against the 2nd command to make and bow befor images, but now I know its the best thing I can do.Thou shat not steal. Nobodys home next door. I think ill go clean them out. Thank you cardinal Law for showing me the truth.
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St Bosco said:
My keyboard is shot. I spend more time correcting words than typing them.
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chalcedon451 said:
My sympathies.
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