I would not speak of it ‘as more or less sinful in God’s eyes’. There are ‘mortal’ sins that are a conscientious rejection of a good, or acceptance of an evil with full consent. Then there are ‘those’ who through ignorance or unwillingly submit to a sin. What is sin? It is not always a ‘separation’ from God, though separation will always be a grave matter and thus sinful. More likely, it is ‘turning one’s face away from God.’ In other words, ignoring Him (though you know the precepts and admonitions from the Church and you defy your own conscience): this is self-will as opposed to God’s Will.
We may well be quite close, so let me clarify that ‘sin to death’ is what we see unrepentant serious sin to be. That is a complete willful separation from God and a denial that God can or will forgive any sin if one is truly repentant. The classification as serious or mortal comes from the fact that these are complete and conscious ‘principle fractures’ and not merely acts that incidentally or unknowingly harm our relationship with God. It is helpful for us to be able to spot the difference and sometimes the difference can be very subtle.
I really do think that the guidance to recognizing mortal or serious sin is rather straight forward as a principle: serious, in that it is clearly a break with one of the 2 Great Commandments; that I had knowledge that it was a grave sin when I committed the offense and finally, I was not coerced in some way to offend God: in other words, knowingly and with my freewill. Not too hard a concept really.
If we were to ‘enumerate’ every sin, then the list would be as vast as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on a beach. What you might call lists reveal principles and Christ boiled those principles down into a mere 2 for our better understanding: love of God and love of neighbor (with an implied love of self and love also implies a type of respect and is deserving of obedient submission). All the billions of particular sins fall into one or the other. We wear these principles inwardly in our conscience if we were lucky enough to have them formed through right Christian principles as we matured. It allows us to investigate a particular fault and see if it is sinful or not. Since Christ abided by the Law of Moses and the Law of the OT Church, it would seem that in matters of the ‘dos’ and ‘don’t dos’ we have many witnesses and statements by Christ or His apostles to help us in that discernment. To discount, nullify or morph such direction into a new unrecognized guide to morality seems to be nothing short of mental gymnastics. At my age I am not supple enough to go through such contortions. I prefer the saints and the teachings that guided them to become saints. When enneagrams, centering prayer and acceptance of homosexual acts are found to have the profound effect of keeping us in close contact with God and helps us keep our face turned always toward Him then many saints will follow. Until I see the saintly produce I will continue to view these ‘fruits’ as of the same value to my spiritual life as the fruit that Adam and Eve partook: forbidden fruit.
There is here the danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think there is an inherent presumptuousness that we somehow can and will discern something different and that it will somehow really be quite better than what has gone before. We might do well to recognize that many things which were norms were learned the hard way and contain much wisdom. Sodom and Gomorrah (whether the story is merely instructional or actual history) seemed to have left folks with a traditional understanding; but we have altered the meaning of the story today and we seem to claim that we can somehow produce these same sorts of societies in a way that won’t separate us from the face of God or bring His wrath down upon us. Such an approach seems hypothetical and idealistic and I think it very wrongheaded.
chalcedon451 said:
Servus, I am delighted that Jessica has decided to publish these exchanges between you and Struans. I think them an excellent advertisement for productive dialogue – indeed a much better one than my own exchanges, where, I think, we both enjoy firing off fusillades too much 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Well, C, there is always that temptation and I am not one who has clean hands in that regard either. What is fascinating about starting with Struans is that the ideas keep broadening into uncharted depths that challenge us to topics rarely discussed. Always fun to exercise the mind with discussions that he inspires. Alas, I wish I had his intellect because all that guides me is my faith and my very vivid imagination. I think in pictures and metaphors and therefore we are a strange duo for debate. 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
I am encouraged that it is possible to have a space in which such a discussion can take place; I really can think of no other where it would be possible.
I am hoping that the estimable Joseph Richardson will pick up on some of the points. Struans is a good challenge for us all. C
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Servus Fidelis said:
He is indeed and Joseph is a very good apologist that I would like to see more of here.
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, I agree.
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Joseph Richardson said:
Thanks for the kind words, both of you. I’m bad to get distracted by things and miss conversations that are going on, so always feel free to bop me if you’d like to get my attention. 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Well you are well respected here (at least by all the Catholics 🙂 ) so we always like to see you join in when possible. I know how hard it is to keep up with your own blog and then be asked to spend more time at another so I am a little reluctant to bop you on the head. But thanks for allowing me to do so. 🙂
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Struans said:
Thank you my friends, for your kind words about me. I am also glad to note that Pancakes seems a likely friend to join me in my trench.
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
You are welcome for the kind words, sir. You are, if not agreed with, at least highly respected. And yes, I have noticed that about Pancakes. You are not completely alone. 🙂
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Struans said:
I think you do me an honour, sir, that I am not due. Alas, if only you knew me in person – I doubt myself constantly, but sometimes, when it comes to Christian truth, I must fight the good fight.
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
You do it well my friend and it is not uncommon that we go through periods of self-doubt. I think all men of good will do exactly the same. 🙂
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Struans said:
Alas, if you knew me in real life, I fear that my intellect would not measure up to your most generous description. I think it’s always the case that one can argue from the positions with which one is more familiar.
S.
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Struans said:
Oh, I’d already commented on that one…..
Just trying to catch up.
S.
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Carl D'Agostino said:
“…had knowledge that it was a grave sin when I committed the offense and finally…”
One RC friend of mine was like this in being on the planning end of a very very very grave sin/crime and was prior and still is a daily Mass attender. He knows his premeditated plan to commit the evil was wrong. Has a priest very close friend and personal confessor and is confident of his forgiveness by God through the wave of the costumed man. He now attends Mass daily again and has even joined as semi monastic brotherhood as an every other weekend attendee in their fellowship. Seems like he thinks he can buy his way back into God’s grace with his I’m a good boy again act. Or maybe not an act as I think he his sincere in earning redemption.
Naturally this is not the real RC notion of forgiveness or Protestant either but I see so many people that think they can do bad and get away with it in God’s standing because the costumed man forgives them repeatedly despite some RC thinking to the contrary-they still think so.
Is God ever forgiving or is there a tipping point where God says “I’ve had it with you buddy. Time to get lost.”But then there is the story where Jesus says the man with the adulterous wife must forgive her over and over again.
In my own personal life I do try to live never being the source of anyone’s misfortune and live so that amends and atonement are not necessary but naturally I am very imperfect in the effort.
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Tom McEwen said:
I tell you plainly the term “the wave of the costumed man.” offends me. That costumed man is under the power of the Bishop, the Bishop is under the power of see of Rome, the see of Rome is under the power of Luke 10:16 ““The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
You make Christ into a liar “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
We are called to be instruments of the God, the Power is God’s but we are his instruments. He does not stop in the street and feed the poor, he uses and demands, and charges that we be his instruments to feed the poor.
That costumed man is an instrument and my costumed man has spent 50 years, day by day feeding the poor in spirit and in the body.
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Servus Fidelis said:
There is no sin that is too big for Christ not to forgive. As to a penitent having ‘perfect’ or ‘imperfect’ contrition is a matter that only God and the penitent knows. If he has not contrition then his asking for forgiveness is null and void no matter what the priest says for he has violated the essence of the Sacrament itself. Sins are forgiven when one is truly sorry for their sins (especially for the wounds that they cause to the love of God). Nobody can game the system, Carl. Christ and the Holy Spirit are in charge of the efficacy of the Sacrament.
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NEO said:
“Sins are forgiven when one is truly sorry for their sins (especially for the wounds that they cause to the love of God).”
I think, SF, this might be the crux of the matter that so many miss. God will forgive anything but God is no fool, he knows when we are not truly sorry, and I suspect that many like Carl’s example (I know nothing of it and do not judge) put on a show, for human consumption and hope God is fooled as well. If so, I suspect they will have a surprise one day.
That is also, I think, why we are enjoined not to judge.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Indeed so. And in the case of Carl’s friend, I would think just the opposite of Carl. It shows his deep regret for his sins and wants to do penance for the remainder of his life. That sounds like a person of ‘goodwill’ and sound conscience. So like you, I can only look at the externals which indicate something of the internal. However, Christ and the Holy Spirit know the full story and it is now as it always was a matter between God and the man’s soul.
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NEO said:
Exactly, I mostly wanted to stress that line a bit more, it’s important, and often missed.
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Servus Fidelis said:
It is NEO. Again it is one of the essentials that makes this Sacrament valid or invalid. Invalid in this case, means that you didn’t receive the grace of forgiveness. Not a good thing at all.
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NEO said:
No, it surely isn’t. And it surely is essential.
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Mark said:
SF, what about unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit that Christ spoke of, are we in danger of contradicting scripture.
“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29
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Servus Fidelis said:
Please read the link that a I left for Carl below Mark. You are right to ask and it is important we know what the Catholic Faith teaches us to believe concerning that. Let me know if that is how you hold it as well. It was what I was taught and sadly have not heard it taught at the parish level in any sermon to my knowledge. It is almost like they have conveniently forgotten it: and it is important.
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Servus Fidelis said:
For readers who will not read the link it might be helpful to summarize this most important question in a boiled down version.
If one blasphemes that the spirit of Christ that operated in Him to effect the miracles that He performed and likewise would do the same to the Church (the Mystical Body of Christ) then one has committed the unforgivable sin. Like Bosco who sees the spirit of the devil in the Church, in Christ’s day they saw the spirit of Satan as the power behind Christ’s miracles. This is unforgivable. Have faith in the promises of Christ that He has given the Church the Holy Spirit Who is not without the full power of God to effect what the Church says is effected in our Sacraments: for it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that these sacraments can forgive sin, give Christ in the Holy Eucharist and all of the other means of grace contained in our sacraments.
In other words, we remain impenitent and do not believe that Christ or the Church through the Sacrament of Reconciliation has the power to forgive our sins. To die unrepentant of serious sin is a sin to death.
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Carl D'Agostino said:
“There is no sin that is too big for Christ to not to forgive.”
I do not think I will ever reach this level of thinking so I will leave it alone on the matter and focus on “keeping clean my own side of the street” as taking the inventory of others, the denomination which guides them or the absurdness of salvation or no is none of my business but still like to participate in throwing the ideas back and forth.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Carl, I think you are probably aware of the scripture concerning ‘unforgivable sin.’ So to understand how Catholics have always understood this might be helpful. The following article is pretty good: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.htm
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Carl D'Agostino said:
Will certainly read.
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Struans said:
The question is, if one commits this eternal sin, yet repents, what then – is one forgiven?
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
It was pretty self-explanatory. If you think that there is no Holy Spirit that is capable of remitting sin, then who is it that the penitent is going to go to for forgiveness. It is the very fact that they do not accept the gift that Christ is offering us of His Love and Forgiveness which is the sin (in fact, it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit): therefore, one who commits it is not one who repents unless he merely seeks to be seen as doing a good thing. A confession not made in belief. And that it is a repudiation of the true belief in the power of God to remit the sin and forgive him for his transgression it is worthless.
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Struans said:
I think you miss the point. If one thinks that there is no Spirit, yet later in life one then comes to a different view, is one forgiven? The text reads that one is not, but I am not so sure. It is a possibility, after all, that one might deny moral consciousness as somehow material and irrelevant – there are so-called atheists who do this. Yet one hopes that if they come to see the Holy Spirit, then they would be forgiven for their earlier truculence and mistakes on this score.
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Certainly, if one comes to believe in the Holy Spirit, their salvation is possible and forgiveness would not be denied them after they have come to a conversion of belief and repented of their serious sins.
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Struans said:
I am glad that we are agreed here. 🙂
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Indeed. We are on many things it seems. We just come to some areas where we have diverged on separate paths. As you have said, it is all about discernment. 🙂
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Struans said:
Yes – and, perhaps, a recognition that Rome is not the only way to God. Or, indeed, the best way, perhaps 🙂
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Agree with the first and reject the second as you probably would guess. 🙂
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Carl D'Agostino said:
ooops , I meant assurance of forgiveness not absurdness-my spell check has a mind of its own
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Servus Fidelis said:
I know how that is. 🙂
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Joseph Richardson said:
I agree with your ideas above very much, Servus, and I’m not sure what else I can add, especially since I feel like I’m stepping into the middle of the conversation. I am frequently bothered by the idea especially among Evangelicals (I hang out with a lot of Baptists) that “all sins are equal.” It’s very often wrapped up with this idea of penal substitutionary atonement that I’ve been contending with lately — that Jesus bore the punishment for our sins to the cross; that every sin, whether it’s shoplifting, fornication, or murder, is equally worthy of death and eternal damnation, and Jesus bore the penalty for us all so we would not have to pay that price. This is what I always held as an Evangelical, and it sounds nice on the surface, and it has the effect of reminding us all that we are sinners and that we are no better or worse than any other sinner. Except I think it misses the point. It treats God’s judgment as if it’s arbitrary and he is an “angry god” dangling us over the pit of hell like spiders, poised to drop us for the slightest infraction — to evoke the imagery of Jonathan Edwards. Scripture, on the other hand, presents a God of love, who loved us enough to die for us, so that not one of us would have to suffer eternal separation from Him (John 3:16, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, etc,). Yes, Scripture also speaks of the “wrath” of God, a coming judgment for sin — and yet it is strangely devoid of triumph or celebration, the “wrath” so visible throughout the rest of the Apocalypse, at the throne of the Last Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).
Sin is sin because in it we are rejecting God. We choose separation from Him, and it is only that choice that can separate us from His love. And sins do entail a greater or lesser rejection of Him and of His will and of His life. And sin, like so many works of Satan, takes a perfectly good and beautiful thing and perverts it. Homosexual relationships can and often are based in real love. And the love in itself is never the part that is sinful. It’s the twisting of sexuality, the mockery of God’s design, the denial of sexual complementarity and procreation. And so long as nobody is being hurt, I don’t think even that is nearly as destructive to the person or his relationship with God. The biggest danger in homosexuality, however, is the web of lies it spins for itself, to enwrap those who are caught in it, to convince them that what they are involved in is “normal,” that it is not sin, that any questioning of its behavior and lifestyle is “hate” — and all of that can lead people completely away from God and from truth before they are even aware of it.
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Joseph Richardson said:
… Not as nearly destructive to the person and his relationship with God as something like murder. Left that thought dangling.
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NEO said:
What Servus said above goes for a lot of us Protestants as well.
I like the way you think about sin, and especially like your thinking on homosexuality, I have no resources that say that, exactly but, it fits with with my beliefs about God, and man for that matter. An interesting topic, when we can keep the emotions under control, and your take fits with my personal experience.
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Servus Fidelis said:
I totally agree here Joseph. Evil is the corruption of good. That God made man both male and female and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth has been made a mockery of and this is our first and most primitive instruction. It is to twist what cannot nor ever will be able to fulfill this command into a relationship of equal value; and it is not. If out quest is not for eternal happiness and to attempt to perfect our miserable lives what then is our purpose? To what do we then try to attain? Just lie down and allow humanity to endure the path of entropy into annihilation? God’s plan seems more grandiose and more loving in that He seems to want us to be made in His image and likeness: which entails a completion of our road to perfection and a hand to help us up. This isn’t the way we help each other attain the goal and our Church has never before recommended it or even sanctioned it as mere ‘poor’ or different choice. It was and should continue to be regarded as disordered and the act itself as sinful. At least then, a person who has this tendency can make some good choices in their life.
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Struans said:
“has been made a mockery of” How so? I really don’t see this.
” to be regarded as disordered and the act itself as sinful.” Disordered as to what though? That is the question. And what is sinful, precisely?
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
To mock would be to produce a non-working prototype of what God designed. It is not functional and its ability to procreate and fill the world is impossible and therefore its worth is not focused on fulfilling a commandment of God but in a faux marriage incapable of responding. It lies outside of God’s design for man.
The above thought should be enough to make one think that it is not ordered to something higher but instead is disordered and seeks a lower purpose that is simply self satisfying. That in itself is a type of ‘turning away’ ones face from God by ordering ones life to merely satisfying personal desire.
If you do not mind I would quote a small bit of what St. Ignatius considers a principle and foundation for spirituality:
“Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul. The other things on the face of the earth are created for man to help him in attaining the end for which he is created. etc.”
Pray tell, how homosexuality helps us in attaining the end for which we are made?
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Struans said:
It lies outside of God’s design for man, does it? We will get onto this, no doubt, in more detail when we look afresh as some deeper matters as this series of posts concludes. Let me at present limit myself to observing what your pope has recently said on the matter: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/02/14/marriage-must-be-built-on-the-rock-of-love-pope-tells-thousands-of-couples/
It doesn’t look like procreation is the first purpose of marriage any longer, does it?
The end for which we are made, it to be united in Christ. This is the Christian hope. As the ecumenical creeds have it, in Christ, man became God. Asking how homosexuality helps us attain this end is like asking how a disposition to like the colour blue, or to have a club foot, helps us attain this end. It is what it is – and then from wherever man is, one seeks God.
You still haven’t answered my question as to what is sinful. And your comments raise another point too with your expression of ‘merely satisfying personal desire’. So what if my personal desire is to be closer to God. Is to satisfy that something which also is to be a ‘mere satisfaction’, as if all personal desires are inherently bad?
Let us discuss more, my friend.
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Yes, we will certainly need to my friend as I am fascinated. First, I see not connection of the Pope piece you referenced. He did indeed speak of raising a family and that he simply did not mention procreation in this talk is simply that was not the point of this message.
A club foot etc. does not serve to frustrate the will of God as did the example I outlined. And we have already said that sin is a turning away from God to do our own will. I think my example fits this category.
As to right ordered personal desire, in spiritual parlance, it is imperfect even here but a very necessary ordering of ones will to take the soul towards a point that many saints eventually reach; where even this last vestige of personal attachment or desire the consolation and assurance of God to satisfy their wants rathe than God’s. So God even takes away that small imperfection and the soul is stripped to desire only what God desires and what he would do to them: such is their will completely conformed to the will of God. The recent Mother Teresa said as much after many long years of suffering spiritual emptiness. It is not uncommon: it is the last dark night that a spiritual soul reaches in this life if they are so lucky and the hardest trial of all: known as the dark night of the soul among those who walk this arduous path.
So not inherently bad since it is well ordered: but there is some small grain of imperfection even hidden within that apparent love as well.
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Struans said:
I don’t see your point on that article. Maybe, in the style of QV, he is a heretic, but his insistence on love (and he goes on, rather well in my view, to outline what he means here) being the rock of marriage is wrong, but are you suggesting that he meant to say “love and procreation”? It’s a brave RC who puts words into the mouth of his pope!
Re club foot. But you said that homosexuality was a frustration of the will of God – implying that in itself such a thing is a frustration. I really don’t follow. Or are you saying that there is some archetypal human being whose physical life on earth is somehow perfect – the model from which it is a frustration of God’s will if there is deviation. If so, maybe you are a believer in equality and uniformity! 🙂
Of course, this is not the role of Jesus of Nazareth. Who is to say that Jesus of Nazareth had a life of perfection as a model archetype of humanity? There’s no record of Him marrying and bearing issue, or any record of him having a human body of some form of ‘perfection’ (Is that blue eyes, now, or is it blond hair? What about warts and boils? What about a lisp, what about ears that stick out, what about acne, what about being born with only three fingers on one hand?) Heaven forbid the use of some of the imagery of Jesus used in non-European contexts!
Of course, this is not the perfection of Christ that our faith is about – some sort of readily born perfection where we can all go: “that’s the one! – perfect!”.
This idea of yours about personal desire also troubles me. I refer back to my essay on the Trinity. Let us cover the meaning of these terms, for the sake of finding common ground: Personal…personhood is a centre of consciousness, of action, or of autonomy – that will do for now. Desire…a sense of longing for a person, or hoping for an outcome.
Let us also look again at the Trinity – this one Triune God that we worship. He is a trinity of relationships between persons. Indeed, a perfection of relationships, we could say. Does God will for me that my personhood is suppressed into the personhood of Him, or does he will for me to be fully alive by having perfected personal relationship with Him? Is is not good for my person to desire to perfect my relationships with the persons of the Trinity? To be fully aligned with the purposes of God, as it were?
Let us take another personal relationship – one of marriage. Let us assume that this is marriage with husband and wife, as the BCP of old would have it. Is it somehow not good for there to be a common desire for the well-being of the other? To care too much for the devices and desires of our own hearts is not a perfection, to be sure. However, a personal desire that is aligned with that which is divine is not to be discounted, which is how I read your text.
Looking forward, as ever, to your further thoughts.
S.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Is it necessary for anyone to say ‘everything’ that is true to a group of people they are addressing? If the Pope’s speech were about how to conduct oneself with one’s spouse then that is what it was about. He is not under some edict to read the Catechism to the audience.
If you are speaking of equal as the equal ability to reach one’s own individual perfection then you would be saying what I am saying. To take my words to mean some communistic, assembly-line product is a rather a silly notion.
Is Christ a perfect example of perfection of the human person? Of course. He is the very model of what human holiness consists. He has shown us that there is another state of life that is even higher and more perfect than marriage for those who can live it: celibacy. Living ones life only for God and to do only His will is a more perfect way. Apparently the Apostles found this to be true as well and the Catholic Church has recommended such to people who are able and want to offer their whole lives to God which is especially seen in our religious orders.
If one has chosen one’s state of life and that state of life is marriage, then there are responsibilities that one must live up to. That is why we one must try to inform our children of what marriage consists before the run off willy nilly and make their lives messier than they might need to be. Yes, agape love is required in marriage and is the love that makes the family unit (father – mother – child) a reflection of the Triune God in and of itself. Imperfect but very good. And to be willing to give your life for the other is a reflection of the perfection of that Love which Christ took to His Cross for the love of us.
I hope that clarified things? 🙂
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Struans said:
Well, on that pope speech, let us not dwell on the matter. When he speaks, and it is not ex-cathedra, then perhaps we might not pay so much attention as he is not announcing formal changes of doctrine – I grant you that.
I did not claim that Christ was not a perfection of the human person. I made some remarks about Jesus of Nazareth as some archetype of a perfect specimen of humanity. These are different subjects.
However, you bring us – and I was wondering if you would take the bait – onto the subject of celibacy and a claim that that is a ‘state of life that is even higher and more perfect than marriage’. You have clarified things indeed, but I do not agree.
Let us not continue this one in the comments thread, as it is too important for others to miss – and I need to access my bookshelves at home to muster my arguments.
Let us return on this one 🙂
S.
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Struans said:
Re homosexuality, can you please describe what you mean by “its behavior and lifestyle” ? Thank you.
S.
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Steve Brown said:
Joseph, the else you added was great, especially starting with “Homosexually relationships can…..
Thanks!
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Struans said:
I don’t agree with all you say, JR, but I was struck by the truth of your comment of a web of lies. Yes, indeed, it is when we cannot flourish to the fullest extent possible, whatever cards we have been dealt, then lies can be so destructive when one is presented with a picture of normality with which to conform which is far from the Truth that our Lord wishes for us (and about which we probably won’t agree on!).
Glad to meet you, my friend.
S.
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Struans said:
Oh, I’ve already been over this thread!
S.
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