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One of the common misconceptions amongst some Catholics is that when a Baptist cites scripture he does so because he is proclaiming that only things found in Scripture are allowed; that is not so, we use Scripture as the canon – as the measure. If something is not in Scripture and is not against it, then fine. But if something is in Scripture and what you want goes against it, then what you want is, however much you want it, wrong. It isn’t, in short, using the Bible as a manual, it is using it as a rule to check whether what your deceitful heart tells you is so, really is so.
Thus Bosco, perhaps wilfully, perhaps not, goes on about graven images, citing the ten commandments. God bans the worship of graven images, not the making of then for aesthetic purposes. So, if I see Mexicans kneeling before an image of the Virgin Mary and I am an idiot, I say ‘she’s worshipping that statue’ and cite Exodus; if I am a sensible person I see this is a Christian, assume she knows it is wrong to worship a lump of plaster, and think that this is a part of her culture. What I don’t do, unless I like judging, is to make the assumption she’s really a pagan. By extension, I do not assume that the church to which she belongs is worshipping statues; I do not do this because I am not a fool. By banging away as he does on this, Bosco just looks like a clown.
But that does not mean there is not a point in what he is saying; just that he can’t quite find it. The point is that across time, space and culture, men do add things; the question is not whether they do, it is whether what has been added runs counter to Scripture?
Bosco appears, from one of his recent comments not to understand liturgical worship. A common Protestant error is to assume that the early Christians simply worshipped in house churches, but why do we assume that? Many of them were Jews, used to liturgical services, and to assume they simply dropped ceremony to stand and say a few prayers and listen to the Bible is to import into the past modern assumptions. We know from the earliest records that there were services and that they centred around the Eucharist.
The Didache, a document that may be earlier than some of the New Testament Canon, is clear:
14:1 And on the Lord’s own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
We also learn something of the manner of that service:
9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}
This is not standing around saying whatever comes into your head; there is a clear structure based around the Eucharist.
It is also clear on Baptism:
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.
Hope those babes in arms were listening and fasted; wouldn’t like to have been the parent trying that one out.
So there are traditions, and because Bosco once saw the word in a Bible and saw Jesus saying he didn’t like some traditions, he thinks it meant Jesus didn’t like any, ignoring, as he always does, the fact that the Canon – that is the Bible itself, is part of tradition. We only know it is the Bible because the early Church says it is; so not all traditions (as Paul makes clear) are wrong.
That takes us to the nub of all of this. Our faith is about trust in Christ and being reborn in Him. That is a powerful and person thing. But we are not the first person to have this experience, and if we do not orientate ourselves with the lives of others who have had it, we run the grave risk of pridefully assuming that we, and we alone, can interpret the sacred texts.
In the end we submit, each of us, to some authority; where what that authority teaches chimes with what the earl church taught, we do not go wrong by our own fault. But we do if we assume that we can disregard the plain meaning of Scripture. So, for me, our recent discussion about baptism was not about saying I am right and you are wrong (despite many telling me I was wrong and they were right) it was about explaining that what we do goes with Scripture and in no wise contradicts it. I do not say those who follow a long tradition of infant baptism are wrong to do so, but I do lay claim to the view that since what Baptists do is not against the plain meaning pf Scripture, we should not be condemned by those who do otherwise.
NEO said:
First, outstanding as usual
I’m not entirely convinced that Bosco actually knows what liturgy means, sometime I think if people like you and I and especially the RCC are for something, he’s agin it, no matter what. That order of service from the ‘Didache’ is fascinating in showing he proper elements of worship existed so early.
Your view closely parallel’s mine. We have tradition and what we accept is based on Scripture, it’s not exclusionary, if it doesn’t contradict, it’s probably OK, if it does, it’s wrong.
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Servus Fidelis said:
NEO, sorry but I put a reply to your comment in the wrong spot. You can take a look and reply if you like. 🙂
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NEO said:
OK, NO problem, happens to us all. 🙂
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Thank you Neo. I see Bosco has given us his scholarly opinion on the Didache. I agree, it is quite fascinating and shows that the central part of all our services does, indeed, go back to Jesus himself.
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NEO said:
And there we hit my central complaint on most ‘contemporary’ services, they don’t do the proper things at the proper time in the service.
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Servus Fidelis said:
NEO, since we were in similar electric worlds in our careers, I wonder if you remember this? Back in about 1978 or 1979 Stackpole was the premier manufacturer of DC brushes and commutators (probably still is to my knowledge). At that time, all of a sudden, their brushes (known for long wear and low sparking) started getting eaten up in about half the normal brush life expected. The company couldn’t figure it out for a month or so until they realized that the chief “cook” (an old man in his 80’s) passed away. Through their investigation they found that this old guy had used his many years of trial and error to perfect the recipe of carbon compounds to produce the highly acclaimed product. He had, apparently, by eye, adjusted the slurry until it ‘looked perfect.’ The recipe hadn’t changed, only the ‘memory’ of how to do it right changed. They fixed the problem during the year by experimenting with the slurry and perfecting the look by interviewing all those who worked with the old man.
My point is, we can’t discount the importance of tradition. The collective memory of a long Church memory is quite useful and sometimes far wiser than the theological or biblical scholarly chemists that think they have the perfect recipe. The ‘memory’ of the Church is sometimes called in to improve their understanding. 🙂
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NEO said:
Ha, I didn’t have a lot of contact with that part of the business but I did hear that they had serious quality problem in that time frame, which eventually got solved. So that’s the answer! 🙂
I have no argument with that. Tradition is very important for exactly that reason. I’ll doubt you ever find me (or likely Geoffrey either) disputing the importance it has. If age teaches you nothing else, it should teach you the pitfalls of novelty. To me a good bit of that falls into the category best described as “It ain’t broke, so quit trying to fix it.”
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Servus Fidelis said:
True that. Yes that was one of those things that had the pleasure of hearing the entire story about from a Stackpole Rep that sold us the brushes. They paid that man way too little money, is my guess and if they could have resurrected the dead I bet they would have tripled his salary to keep him on. That story always stuck with me as reminder not to underestimate the ‘little guy’ that is making your product. He can make or break you. 🙂
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NEO said:
Yep, the guy actually paying attention where the rubber meets the road is critically important, and almost never gets what he deserves 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
So true. And these days it is the older worker is most likely to be let go. They may get their comeuppance for that in due time. 🙂
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NEO said:
They will. You and I know what we know, and it’s far more than they think we do. It always fascinates me, like last Sunday, we were at a barbecue in one of our friends shop you is an industrial maintenance supervisor. He had just replaced an old (75 year) air compressor and had to wire a single phase motor on that and his water heater into his old 3 phase service. Well, not all that many of us are still familiar with wild legs, and even fewer can stand there and give him a parts list. Ha silly young’ins 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Ha. The young ones will simply call their electric provider and have the 3 phase service taken out and have them run a single phase service line from the pole. As, your friend knew: not necessary. Besides, he might need the 3 phase in the future. One never knows. 🙂
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NEO said:
Yep, it’s too bad he didn’t look a bit more and find a three phase compressor, for his long term costs, but it’s hard to make people see that, even before they think they found a bargain. But like some, he will learn. 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Indeed so. A factor of 1.73 more efficient. Not many realize what savings lie in store over time. 🙂
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NEO said:
Lower current (and he has demand metering) cheaper controls, altogether better, oh well 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
And perhaps a few capacitors to buy in the future as well? 🙂
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NEO said:
Could be, but they’re all fairly small loads, I doubt it to be worthwhile, although undoubtedly he’ll replace the motor and/or start caps before he would an industrial motor. 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Indeed so.
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NEO said:
Pay me now or pay me later!
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Servus Fidelis said:
Always the case.
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NEO said:
Ha! Job security 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
I hope you have it my friend because few do these days. 🙂
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NEO said:
Only in my competency, and my friends/contacts, and that will have to do. 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
Good enough. In our brave new world, hardly anybody understands analog electrical work: just digital electronics. 🙂
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NEO said:
True enough, and few electricians out there anymore understand anything other than following the plans. Thinking is not in their tool pouches, heaven help us in about 20 years. 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
That’s because we also became a disposable economy. Nobody even fixes their old 3 phase motors anymore. Used to be that the old U frames were kept running for a hundred years or more. If it is anything more than bearings they throw them out. Foolish waste. Hold on to your hats we are starting the slide to the bottom. 🙂
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NEO said:
Yep, that’s true here as well, I doubt there was much wrong with his old motor, exeept that it probably weighed a hundred pound a HP 🙂
Throw it away, fill the landfill, get a new one, that’s the motto. Even with personal tools, where even the cheap ones aren’t.
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Servus Fidelis said:
No substitute for a cast iron frame. 🙂
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NEO said:
Sure, sheet metal and plastic are fine, if you want 20% of the life, bet it has sealed bearing as well 🙂
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Servus Fidelis said:
If they are cheaper you can almost bet on it these days.
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NEO said:
Yeah, and I think a consumer product, i didn’t climb up and look. I use them occasionally where I know they won’t be maintained or it is really dirt, like a windy cornfield in April. 🙂
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Tom McEwen said:
Excellent. An Art critic commended on Grant Wood’s painting of the farmer and his wife, standing before the barn with a window with three pieces of glass. The critic said it represented the trinity. When Grant Wood was asked, he said. “No, the window was like that and I just painted what I saw”.
Sometime things are just things and the mind makes up meaning that are not there in the truth, but what they think should be. I think in theology, sometimes things are just what they are. Gnostic knowledge is like that. Why does Bosco spring to mind?
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Servus Fidelis said:
Funny story, Tom.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Oh. And good post, Geoffrey. I have little in the way of contrarian remake to make except the one above, if you find that to be so. 🙂
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Thank you, my friend – I don’t find your comment contrarian at all; as ever it is well made.
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Servus Fidelis said:
I’ll have to think of one then. 🙂
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St Bosco said:
God bans the worship of graven images, not the making of then for aesthetic purposes. So, if I see Mexicans kneeling before an image of the Virgin Mary and I am an idiot, I say ‘she’s worshipping that statue’
Sometimes i think comrade Jeff is an agent of the Pontifex Maximus. Because he misquotes me and the scriptures here. Why cant people get this tire? I am an idiot….I am an idiot…Maybe this is the most accurate part of the post. here is what god says
“‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them
Shall not bow down thyself to them or serve them. My comrades here keep trying to escape under the fence by saying god says not to worship them. Well, yes, you ninnies, your not to worship anything but god. Wow, you guys are smart. Tell me, how did you get that smart? Were you born that way or is it from lots of study?
God says not to bow befor them ye blind guides. Or serve them, like putting fine clothes on them and carrying them on your shoulders and putting jewelry on them and gold crowns. You idolaters never ever talk about that.
Oh but we dont worship them, but we do dress them and carry them on our shoulders and put crowns on them and yes we bow befor them,…but its Ok, because we dont worship them.
That in itself wont send one to hell, but rampant willful idolatry and belonging to an idolatrous religion will hamper ones attempt to find Christ, because the religion tells you that you are in gods will.
When ever a catholic gets saved and gets out, they look back and say…Boy, how could i have been that stupid? They realize how they were led by the costume holymen to keep away from Christ salvation and substituted a golden cage and a pedophile in a box.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
And, Bosco, what do you think ‘serve them’ means if not worship them? Do you actually do joined up thinking?
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St Bosco said:
PS..this didache thing is a worthless hoax.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
That is based on what Bosco – or did the spirit move you?
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Servus Fidelis said:
It was just indigestion, methinks.
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St Bosco said:
When one is born of the Spirit, you cannot tell where he comes from or where he has gone.
This is how i know its uninspired….its a perk of being born again. We can tell if we dont hear the holy ghost in it. Its not rocket science. The unsaved dont know the difference. If, one day, any of my comrades in here find Christ, they too will know the Shepherds voice, and another they will not follow….Ever read that passage? yes…No? Its true. Another we will not follow. You will have no idea what that means until you meet Jesus. The NT is closed to the unsaved.
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Tom McEwen said:
Well, it is one of the oldest hoaxes we have Bosco, I know that when the resurrected Jesus leaned over to turn that excellent white fish over on the grill, a King James Bible fell out of his pocket unto the sands of the Sea of Galilee, from that Bible Christianity arose.
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St Bosco said:
Its 10 Am where you are comrade Tom. I had no idea that you guzzle Johnny Walker Black Label that early.
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Carl D'Agostino said:
“using the Bible as a manual”
A very sensible approach.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Thanks Carl – I get the feeling we’re pretty close on many things.
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Tom McEwen said:
Well, I tried using the Bible to repair my car, and you know that dohicky, I installed backwards, I think I should of read 10:17 not 10:16, The devil is in the details and smoke is in the car.
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NEO said:
Tom, make sure not to let ALL the smoke out. You know you can’t put it back and if it escapes, you’ll need a new car.
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Carl D'Agostino said:
Actually Jesus drove a Honda. It says in the Book that the people made an Accord to follow him.
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joan said:
Very good post, I’ve been looking for some years for a blog such as this, with challenging posts and *mostly* respectful commentary from the readers. I wish I could contribute to the discussion in some meaningful way, but all I can say is I read with great interest and learn a lot from y’all.
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Servus Fidelis said:
I looked at your website and think you will have a lot to add to the discussion. And I love the y’all. We need a few more Southerners here. 🙂 Ignore Bosco. 🙂
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Thank you, dear lady, and I am sure our hostess will be glad of your comments, as I am. We try to maintain mutual respect, and never to forget we bear a witness here. It is a pleasure to have you with us, and please stay – and comment whenever you like. GRSS
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chalcedon451 said:
It is a pleasure to have you with us. SF is right, ignore Bosco, he only does it to annoy and because he knows it teases. What a beautiful blog you have. C
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NEO said:
What a wonderful website. You are indeed welcome here, and we will be glad to see your comments. As had been said, often, do your best to ignore Bosco, and we are very glad to have you with us. Neo
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St Bosco said:
he thinks it meant Jesus didn’t like any, ignoring, as he always does, the fact that the Canon – that is the Bible itself, is part of tradition.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Comrade Jeff, when the Dewars wears off, point out where Jesus says that only some of the traditions were wrong. If you can, i will go away from here and never come back..promise.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Point out where Jesus tells us there is going to be a book call the Bible, and you’ll have a point. Point out how we know what the Bible is without tradition, and I’ll eat my hat!
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St Bosco said:
God gave us a book of his words. He was responsible for the content. I thaank god for giving us his book.
Comrade Jeff, who do you want to thank for giving us the bible? Some men?
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chalcedon451 said:
So, Bosco, do explain how God gave us the book? He didn’t write it. He didn’t get an angel to dictate it. Explain to me how we know what books should be in the NT?
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St Bosco said:
Explain to you what books should be in the NT? You must think i have some inside knowledge of what god does. Its a myth, but a darned fine myth. The holy ghost directed men to gather them together. I give god the glory for the NT. The NT was here long befor me. I just believe it. Comrade Chalcedon, whom do you give the glory for giving us the NT? Thanks in advance.
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Tom McEwen said:
Excellent post Geoffrey. Fast and well researched, 50 comments. not bad at all.
Now I will go back and read what St. Bosco has to say.
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Tom McEwen said:
I still can not agree with you on infant baptism, This belief strikes me as the Jewish Pharisees discussing the number of tassels on the Tallit. What does the Body have to do with unmerited grace from God, we have no power over God’s gifts nor his grace, where he gives it or to who he gives it too. Is God a respecter of men or not?
The importance is the soul, it is souls that the business of God is about, does infants have souls? I say yes. Christianity – Bible believing kind, does not believe the bible when it does not suit their theology, and infant baptism is in / out of the bible and you ignore what is in the bible for what is not in the bible.
Do Bible believing christianity believe that Peter was picked by Jesus to lead his Church, No. luke 10:16, does Bible believing christianity believe that My flesh is true meat indeed, my blood is true drink indeed, No. You must eat my flesh and drink my blood, or you will have no life in you, No. Do they believe in the physical signs of a spiritual gift, No, otherwise they would not say they read the bible with the infusion of the Holy Spirit, No. Do they believe Jesus when he says in Matt 25:31 without good works you will be sent to everlasting fire, No. Do they believe that their deeds shall be judged, No, they are saved and always saved. Jesus is judged not them, no matter what the Bible words actually say. Bible believing christianity is Bosco, smaller and smaller splinters of bible believing christians, Pharisees talking about the tassels.
Christ wished us to be one, not 33,000. These questions on infant baptism, is none of our business, it is God’s, The end times in none of our business, it is God’s, How God grants us grace and when and where is none of our business it is God’s. Christians seem to believe it is turtles all the way down, Well, the last turtle is tradition and the pillar and foundation of truth which is the Church that Christ founded, not the Bible.
I think we will agree to disagree.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Tom, I found one passage in the Bible that only a few hillbillies accept and most of them are dying off: “And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” (Mark 16:17-18)
As a saved person, I thought he might be doing this one.
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St Bosco said:
These hill billys tempt god. Let a snake bite them so god has to busy himself and cure him. Born again are not into tempting god.
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