It is easy for the unwary to fall into the trap Bosco blunders around in, insisting that Jesus is the Father, and that the words can be used interchangeably – as though ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ are the same thing. How very odd for a literalist to think the two words are the same. That is not to say that those not paying attention to anything save their own interpretation cannot read such verses in that way:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I and My Father are one.”
But if, as Bosco (and some Pentecostalists, and I suspect Bosco is a ‘oneness pentecostalist’ whether he knows it or not) maintain, Jesus is the Father and the two are interchangeable, precisely what does John 14:28 mean:
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
So, Jesus is ‘greater than himself’? What can this mean? Hebrews 2:9 helps, as it tells us that Jesus ‘was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death’. As Paul told the Philippians:
Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
There were some in the early church (perhaps early Bosco-ites?) who read this as meaning that Jesus only appeared to be a man – a heresy known as Docetism. But they were as wrong as Bosco is in insisting Jesus ‘is the Father’. It was in trying to understand these statements that the early Church developed the doctrine of the Trinity.
Clearly Jesus is saying He is God, and as St John tells us, in words which condemned the docetists:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
But Jesus is also a made man, so in that sense He is lower than God; He is also not the Father, although the Father is God. Now, had Bosco taken the trouble to read, instead of mock, St Cyril of Alexandria, then he would not only not make claims which Jesus never made (He never says ‘I am the Father’), he would begin to know who Jesus is and be able to have a relationship with Him rather than whatever evil spirit has entered him.
St Cyril explained the relationship by what he called the ‘hypostatic union’, which Bosco will no doubt not try to understand, but which, unlike his own ruminations, is based upon what is in the Bible, not what someone wants to be in there. To quote a summary so good that I cannot see how it could better put:
This is the union of the two natures (Divine and human) in the person of Jesus. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8). He is fully God and fully man (Col. 2:9); thus, he has two natures: God and man. He is not half God and half man. He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost his divinity. He continued to exist as God when he became a man and added human nature to Himself (Phil. 2:5-11). Therefore, there is a “union in one person of a full human nature and a full divine nature.” Right now in heaven there is a man, Jesus, who is our Mediator between us and God the Father (1 Tim. 2:5).
This is the answer to what Jesus means when He tells us that He who has seen Him has seen the Father, and that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. It explains who Jesus is praying to, and how the Father can be greater than Him and yet Jesus is God. As the Trinitarian diagram as the top puts it: ‘The Father is God, the Son is God – the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father.’
If Bosco’s spirit, whatever it is, would stop driving him to criticise everyone else, and leave him free to follow the early Christians, it might be that he could enter into a real relationship with the real Jesus; but I am fearful that the spirit that is in Bosco is, having tried it by various tests, not a good or a holy one. Because I want Bosco to come to Jesus, I can end only with the warning St Peter offers:
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour
Servus Fidelis said:
A fine explanation, C.
It does seem that this spirit which Bosco takes for Jesus has made him stop seeking. And if one does not seek then they remain in stasis, believing whatever it is that they have come to believe at the moment that paralysis occurred. The pilgrimage is not yet over, Bosco. Best be seeking as you move forward on the Way.
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chalcedon451 said:
I hope, possibly against hope, that Bosco will read and that the Holy Spirit will lead him to where he should be.
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Servus Fidelis said:
As do I.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well, he’s now telling us that Jesus was just a man. That, of course, is the spirit of anti-Christ, as St John tells us.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Sigh . . . I saw that. Whatever has a grip on his mind and soul is rather strong: this might require both fasting and prayer, I’m afraid.
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chalcedon451 said:
He is not reading – whatever possesses him will not let him. So sad to see such a case. He has not, of course, actually engaged with a single argument put to him. Geoffrey seems to have been right in his pessimism. However, we can only pray for Bosco – a lost soul at the moment.
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Servus Fidelis said:
I agree: reason and facts are not effective at this point.
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chalcedon451 said:
So it seems.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Exasperating read, C. I must hand it to you for your valiant effort though.
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chalcedon451 said:
I shall keep going – for a while 🙂
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Tom McEwen said:
The Holy Spirit? I wonder what Pastor Steve had to say about Bosco’s theology, What does the leader, the shepherd of the flock say? and Why?
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chalcedon451 said:
We shall await with interest.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
You’ve said all that anyone can say to help old Bosco – you’re a better man than I am Gunga Din – trying to help Bosco and QVO – that’s Christianity in action. You’ll get no useful results, I fear – but I take my hat off to you and SF. GRSS
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chalcedon451 said:
Kind of you to say so, Geoffrey, and like you, I have admired Servus’ attempts. His post today was one on which to mediate. C
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Well, old Bosco is doing his usual nonsense – sad.
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chalcedon451 said:
Looks like it Geoffrey.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Yes, but keep going, who knows?
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St Bosco said:
28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,[a] ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Jesus was the Son of man. he shed his divinity to be born of a woman. Mary is the mother of a man. Of course god is greater than a man. Jesus wasnt glorified yet.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, you dare to say Jesus was not God. How then can someone not Divine save us? If Jesus is just a man, then any man’s sacrifice would have done. Bosco, whatever you are, you are as far from the real Jesus as you could be. That new spirit you have is a demon – you seem unable to understand this, and that demon is preventing you from coming to God,. Get him off your back and out of your life and seek God whilst he is still to be found.
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St Bosco said:
“So, you dare to say Jesus was not God”
How many times have i said that Jesus is the creator. Its in the scriptures, and i believe every word. The Word was with god and the Word was god.
How much plainer do you need it. You say i have a demon. When you get up off your knees from befor the graven image of Tammuz and read this, i wont expect an apology. You are entitled to your opinion. Oh, and dont stare too long at that golden sun symbol of Baal to long..you might become farsighted.
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chalcedon451 said:
You just told us Jesus was a man with God’s spirit in him – so make up your mind. The Word was with God because Father and Son, and Spirit, as of the same substance, but Father is not the same as Son – otherwise they’d be both called ‘Father’ Bosco. How much plainer do you need it? Your opinion is that of the antichrist. Try to find the real jesus Bosco, not the one you make up. If you cannot see that you are headed straight to hell-fire, others can. May God bring you His Spirit to replace the one in you now.
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St Bosco said:
“but Father is not the same as Son – otherwise they’d be both called ‘Father’ Bosco.”
More human reasoning?
Isaiah 9vs 6 says the child is the everlasting Father. If you dont buy that, well, theres nothing else i can do.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, you think that what St John says is cancelled out by what Isaiah says? As that cannot be, you are misreading both.
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St Bosco said:
Im misreading. Ok. lets see it….the everlasting Father…Ok…how do i misread that? Make it go away.
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chalcedon451 said:
You are misreading it. It does not say that Jesus is the Father; it says he is God.
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St Bosco said:
It says the child is the everlasting father. You are free to say it doesnt meanthat.
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chalcedon451 said:
He shed his divinity? But read what St John says:
“22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”
And also:
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we[b] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[c] may receive a full reward.
If you do not believe that Jesus is the Incarnate God, the Bible calls you an antichrist Bosco. Repent of this sin and seek God.
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Rob said:
Bosco no where in scripture are we told that Jesus shed His divinity – He was as much God when on earth as before the incarnation and after it. You are not a teacher – this does not mean you are not a Christian as some are trying to make out here. Go and clear up these matters with the teachers at Calvary Chapel.
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St Bosco said:
Thank you good brother Rob for that excellent advise. I will do as you ask.
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St Bosco said:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Humans are lower than angels. There goes the mother of god thing. Mary gave birth to someone lower than the angels. Of course Jesus will sat his Father is greater.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, before you comment, read. You now seem to be saying that you don’t think Jesus is God. For once, actually read both posts, think, and then comment. You are in the gip of some demon, and unless you at least try to know who Jesus is, you are lost.
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St Bosco said:
Ive read your posts, i repeat.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, tell me, was Jesus a fully-human person, or a puppet moved by God’s will, or something else?
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St Bosco said:
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Pretty plain. Jesus said alot of things that the CC doesnt believe. No surprise there.
Let me dig into the OT. The religious cant understand the NT.
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chalcedon451 said:
Try readng my posts Bosco, they address that question.
If you say Jesus is not the Christ come in the flesh, that he is not divine, then St John tells you this:
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we[b] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[c] may receive a full reward.
You will not find any salvation Bosco unless you repent and find Jesus – the real one, not the demon who occupies you.
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St Bosco said:
I read both posts good brother Chalcedon. Thanks for creating them. Maybe someone will learn something.
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chalcedon451 said:
If whatever demon possesses you would let you, you could. Bosco, St John says plainly that he who denies that Jesus is God is antichrist – so by the Bible, you are confessing the views of antiChrist. When I tell you to pray and repent, and then do it until you see the truth, I am urging you to get on the path of salvation.
I am not saying become a Catholic, I am saying become a Christian.
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St Bosco said:
Thanks good brother. Great advice. I shall.
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St Bosco said:
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
pretty plain. Beside the Lord, there is no god.
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Unless one doesnt believe the bible, the great I Am is saying that there is no other god besides himself.
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chalcedon451 said:
Of course there is only one God – who said otherwise?
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St Bosco said:
Your confusing chart you put up there does the double talking for you.. Jesus is god but not the Father. The father is god. Jesus is god but not the Father.
Ive maintained this all along….religion turns a mans mind into malt-o-meal.
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jrj1701 said:
Bosco what you are doing is diminishing God to the level of your understanding, or worse you have taken on a spirit of the anti-christ. I pray for you, for I know it was hard for me to be humble when I convinced myself that I knew it all.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, if you re-read you will see the explanation.
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St Bosco said:
I read both twice. Human reasoning at its best, but still there is this pesky little Isaiah 9vs 6 that keeps singing in my ear. Maybe you can tell us how that verse isnt true. Youve already explaimned why its good to bow beor the works of mens hands and how lovely it is to call men father and how great it is to vainly repeat prayer.
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St Bosco said:
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, and your point? You need to think, not just cite verses. I provide you with reasons why this doesn’t mean ‘Jesus is the Father’ and tell you what it does mean. Fight that spirit in you Bosco, use prayer and anything else needed – but get away from whatever it is that is keeping you from Jesus.
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jrj1701 said:
You are flip flopping Bosco, in your zeal to deny that veneration of Mary is proper and not against God you have denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. That does not bode well and by your own words these folks that you are saying ain’t saved are proving to you that what you are saying is not of God.
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St Bosco said:
You are flip flopping Bosco, in your zeal to deny that veneration of Mary is proper and not against God you have denied the divinity of Jesus Christ.
My gosh, Good brother Iri, are you a sleep walker? You sound like youre asleep. In some dream state. How do i deny his divinity? Ive always said jesus was god. You religious people are in such a hurry to find fault with me, you will say anything. Not surprising. Religion turns a mans mind into apple sauce.
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chalcedon451 said:
You said a few moments ago that Jesus was a man – you cannot even recall your own words Bsco.
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jrj1701 said:
From your own words (yeah I must cut and paste) “Jesus was the Son of man. he shed his divinity to be born of a woman. Mary is the mother of a man. Of course god is greater than a man. Jesus wasnt glorified yet.” That statement denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, Luke 1:41-44 should show you the error in your statement.
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chalcedon451 said:
No doubt when you have whatever Spirit is occupying Bosco, if has an effect on your short-term memory?
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St Bosco said:
hey, im going to go easy on you guys. You all agree jesus was fully god and man. This is hard to explain in human words. I cant do it. And it seems to confuse the unsaved even more. They let their wicked religion speak for them. I cut and paste scripture and you pharisees scream and contort even louder. Like a mad dog behind a fence when someone walks by. Scripture is plain, but never mind scripture..youve got pedophiles in Dagon fish hats to guide you. And a cathechism that trumps the bible.
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chalcedon451 said:
You can run Bosco, but you can’t hide.
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St Bosco said:
Seems god , the Father, is also the redeemer.
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chalcedon451 said:
We are redeemed by the blood of Him who died on the Cross. Do you think the Father died on the Cross Bosco? Read both posts and pray for understanding. It is sad to see a good man moving so far from Jesus.
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St Bosco said:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, you will use the OT to deny the New. Just show me where Jesus says “I am the Father’. I do not think you have read what I have written Bosco.
St John says those who say Jesus is not divine are antichrist. That seems to be you Bosco. How does it feel to be in the grip of antichrist. Get saved Bosco.
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St Bosco said:
The above quote is from Isaiah. God is talking directly. he says the child to be born will be called the everlasting father. What else do you need good brother?..Oh, thats rite, you dont believe one gat danged word of scripture.
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chalcedon451 said:
And that explains how Jesus can be both Father and Son? No, it explains that Jesus is God, but not the Father.
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St Bosco said:
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
No, it explains that Jesus is God, but not the Father.
So 9 vs 6 says hes the everelasting Father, but good brother Chalcedon says its not true. Not surprising, for someone who uses graven images to direct their prayer.
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chalcedon451 said:
Where does Isaiah say Jesus is the Father? He doesn’t, he says that God is the Father and the Son. Learn to understand what you read Bosco.
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St Bosco said:
Youre joking rite?
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jrj1701 said:
If ya read the Scriptures and prayed instead of being Captain cut and paste ya might understand and place it in proper context.
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St Bosco said:
Whats wrong with letting the Lord of hosts do battle for me.? You religious people comdem me and scream louder when i paste straight from the bible. Good brother Chalceon is beside himself , calling me demon possessed. I do little talking. I let scripture talk for me.
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jrj1701 said:
You missed my point all together, even the devil can quote scripture, yet you refuse to see wher you contradicted yourself and denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. A deeper study of Scripture would reveal to you that the things you have been stating are wrong.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, Bosco, you speak for Scripture and in place of it, and as St John shows, you speak against it. Whatever demon spirit is occupying you, it is keeping you from Jesus. My advice is that you need help.
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St Bosco said:
The Everlasting Father.
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St Bosco said:
” Whatever demon spirit is occupying you’
aLLMANNER OF SIN WILL BE FORGIVEN MEN. bUT NOT BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST.
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chalcedon451 said:
And whilst we are on the subject of the Spirit, Bosco, what is the relationship of the Spirit to the Father and the Son?
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jrj1701 said:
And can you give me the Scriptural definition of that Bosco???
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chalcedon451 said:
The Son is not the Father, and Jesus does not say He is the Father,. Isaiah is referring to God, who, of course, is Father, Son and Holy Spirit – that is what Is. 9:6 means.
Now, answer my question Bosco,. When Jesus walked this earth, did he have a mind and a will of his own, or was he like a puppet controlled by God?
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St Bosco said:
the everlasting Father
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St Bosco said:
Jesus said it was the Father that acts thru him. His mind was the Fathers. But, the NT is closed to the unsaved.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, where does he say his mind is that of the Father? Is Jesus a puppet in your view?
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St Bosco said:
Yeah, i guess you can call jesus a puppet. With the father holding the strings. i dont see a problem there
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chalcedon451 said:
In which case, Bosco, Jesus is not human, so he can’t die in place of us.
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St Bosco said:
good brother Chalcedon, do what i did. Try brandy instead of whiskey. One doesnt get way out there.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, well if this is what you are doing! it might explain the nature of the ‘spirit’ which inspires you.
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Rob said:
Bosco GOD (YHWH) is our father therefor that includes Jesus but this is not the same as the relationship of FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT within the Trinity. That’s why Jesus said He was going to ‘My Father and your father’. He did not say going to ‘our Father’ – the relationship is different.
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St Bosco said:
Dang good brother Rob… youre out in left field too?
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St Bosco said:
Proper context. Thats how the Jews explain away how god condemned them, and why they are the suffering servant. Any passage you show them, they say its taken out of context. Easy to let those words rattle out of your mouth. But the Words of god will not go away.
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jrj1701 said:
Proper context would not deny the divinity of Christ, and being led by the Spirit would reveal the Three in One and One in Three of Whom all nature has creation, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.†††
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed they will not Bosco – and in the words of St John they condemn you.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Bosco, you just got caught with your non-Trinitarian pants down. Stop digging.
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St Bosco said:
The everlasting Father. Good brother Chalcedon made the mistake of saying 9 vs 6 was talking about God. lets see it again
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Its talking about the child, Jesus, who, is god. But good brother Chalcedon is in such a mad dash to besmirch me, he says its not talking about Jesus when plainly it is. Now you sadusees can continue to say im demon posessed. Over to you.
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chalcedon451 said:
Is he Bosco? He is writing about the Messiah, who is the Son and with the Father, is God.
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jrj1701 said:
Look out Bosco, you are at one time saying that the child Jesus ain’t God and then you are saying that He is God. If the child Jesus ain’t God then how come the Scripture that you are quoting says that He is. My advise to you is to do a little reading about trintarianism and bow out until you get right with the Holy Spirit.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Stop digging!
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St Bosco said:
My gosh, good brother Iri is on LSD also. ?
Wide is the road to destruction
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Servus Fidelis said:
So that I might understand, Bosco. Are you saying that Jesus is Father, Jesus is Son and Jesus is the Holy Spirit? If so, then to be Baptized in the name of all three persons is simply a case of redundancy and one could use any of the three names and we would be Baptized just the same? Seems a strange thing to ask the Apostles to do to folk.
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St Bosco said:
They are all one. Even you religious people know that. But i dont understand why you all insist they are separated by an impassible wall.
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chalcedon451 said:
No one is saying that. When you acquire the Spirit of Truth these things will be revealed to you.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Servus, i guess one could baptize in any of the three names. But baptism is to show ones faith in Jesus, in particular. It doesnt save one like the devilish CC likes to tell its devotees. Otherwise one of us might sit next to good brother Hitler at the wedding feast.
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Servus Fidelis said:
Strange then why Christ would tell his Apostles to do it if it is only a sign that shows one’s faith in Jesus. Surely, Christ and the believer already know this, don’t they? Or is it kinda like pushing a peanut across the floor with your nose as a Fraternity hazing – to show the frat brothers that you really do want to be a brother of theirs?
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St Bosco said:
Sure thing good brother Servus.Just between you and me….a ritual wont make one born again. Its a thing between you and Christ. Alone in your room with the door closed.
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Servus Fidelis said:
If you haven’t done so already you might enjoy this post of Fr. Dwight Longenecker: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/02/the-devil-in-ordinary.html
It might be pertinent to this (conversation?).
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Rob said:
Bosco
When we speak of the Trinity we mean that God exists in three eternal and personal modes or ways of being which dwell within each other i.e. in:
The personal mode of Father
The personal mode of Son
The personal mode of Spirit
Each is referred to as a ‘persona’ this does not mean a separate person in the same sense that Rob, Bosco and C: are separate persons and entirely separate beings. What it does mean is that each of the ‘persons of the Trinity’ has His own specific and unique personality and characteristics e.g.
1) The Father is not begotten or sent and does not have a body, The Father does not have an image, God has an image.
2) The Son is both begotten and sent to us from the Father, He was incarnated (has a body) and even appeared in human form in the OT pre incarnation. Jesus is the image of the invisible God
3) The Spirit proceeds from the Father Jn. 14:15-17 and was poured out on the church by the Son Acts 2:33. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit bring the direct activity of God into current human situations. The Spirit is spoken of as thirst quenching water Jn. 7:37-39 appeared as a dove at Jesus baptism and in flames of fire at Pentecost and yet is also a person spoken of with personal pronouns and is described with personal characteristics being a comforter one who can be both grieved and lied to.
So each is God but do not share all the same characteristics, therefore the Father is not the Son or Spirit, the Son is not the Father of Spirit and the Spirit is neither the Father or the Son.
The Son incarnate was both fully divine and fully human. Jesus has a human soul, mind, will and emotions. But He did not live out of those human faculties independent of the will of God. In the Garden prior to the crucifixion we clearly see that Jesus had a will distinct from that of the Father’s because he said to the Father “Yet not my will but yours be done”.
The words Jesus spoke were those he heard from the Father and the works He did were those He saw the Father doing Jn. 14:10. The Son of God Jesus performed these works by the power of the Holy Spirit following His anointing with the Spirit at His Baptism by John. Jesus having emptied Himself and taking the form of a servant Philippians 2:7, 2Cor. 8:9 did not perform His miraculous works out of His own divine power but in the power of the Holy Spirit Lk. 4:18 & Acts 10:38. So we see the activity of the Trinity in each action.
Jesus modeled for us how as believers we may also see what the Father is doing and do the same sort of works by the power of the Holy Spirit Jn. 14: 12-14.
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St Bosco said:
You happen to be correct good brother Rob. When the Lord appeared to Abram in the heat of the day, he showed up as three people.
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Rob said:
That is unlikely Bosco two of the three that appeared to Abraham were angels read the following chapter – If what you say were the case it would make nonsense of scripture and imply that the Holy Spirit and the Father both have bodily images. But scripture tells us ‘no man has seen God at any time” the only begoten has made Him known”. What you are saying about all three persons bearing a human image is what the Mormons teach it is an error.
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St Bosco said:
No, it explains that Jesus is God, but not the Father.—–Good brother Chalcedons words
Er eh, help me out here….isnt God the father?
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chalcedon451 said:
God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost; that means that the Father and the Son are two of the three persons of the Trinity, but the Father is not the Son. Your pastor will explain this, Bosco. Put ‘Trinity’ into the search bar on this blog and you’ll find a few articles trying to explain this. C
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St Bosco said:
Thanks anyway. I use scripture for my sorce of knowlegde
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chalcedon451 said:
So do I Bosco. So does Rob. So why do we agree and both think you are in error?
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Tom McEwen said:
Bosco – I mentioned this on the first post, But who was Jesus praying to in the Garden, Himself?, he was sweating blood while holding a conversation with who? Why are we to told to say the Lord’s prayer, with its selection of nouns? The demon who sits at your table and sups with you is not your friend nor your savior.
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St Bosco said:
They split into 3 persons when they want. Dont ask me how or why. Good brother Tom, Jesus saw sweating blood because all the sins of mankind were being laid on him. In medical terms, its sever anxiety. people are known to do that under the worst conditions thinkable. Jesus was praying to the Father.
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Rob said:
No Bosco they do split into 3 persons when they want. That is the error called ‘Modalism’. God exist in His very being in 3 eternal Persona God is Father Son and Holy Spirit – not just splitting as and when as you describe.
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St Bosco said:
0 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43
God knows of no one else but himself. He alone is the savior. There is no other.
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chalcedon451 said:
And, Bosco, God is a Trinity – Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
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St Bosco said:
That was the almighty god talking there, and he says he is the Savior and there is none else besides him. He makes that kinda plain my good brother.
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chalcedon451 said:
Of course, no one denies it. But the Father and the Holy Spirit were not crucified for our sins, neither did they die on the Cross and rise again; only the Son did that.
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Rob said:
Very true C: but Bosco need to also understand that the whole Trinity is involved in various ways in each act of God.
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Rob said:
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43
Exactly there is no saviour besides God LORD = YHWH the divine name meaning ‘I Am’ which name is applied to God in OT and Jesus in NT repeatedly – send your email to me at robcottrell28@hotmail.co.uk and I’ll send you a list of texts
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St Bosco said:
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44
God talks about himself and the Redeemer as one person, in the singular.
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chalcedon451 said:
And yet in the New Testament, Jesus talks of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Me, I’m with Jesus. If you think Isaiah contradicts Jesus (and I don’t) the who are you to believe?
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Rob said:
God talks about Himself here as one God the issue of persons within the Godhead is not addressed – Jews would not get from this text that it applied to Jesus but references to Christ as the redeemer in the NT reveals to us that God is a multi personal God a Trinity FSS
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St Bosco said:
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 44 vs 8
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chalcedon451 said:
No one is saying there is more than one God, Bosco.
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St Bosco said:
7 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Isaiah44 vs 17
All who make graven images and bow befor them are as dumb as the graven image itself.
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chalcedon451 said:
You will see the words ‘worshippeth’ and ‘prayeth’ there Bosco. As you keep being told it is these things, not images as such, to which God objects.
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St Bosco said:
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
isaiah 45
Are you guys getting this? There is only the Lord, and there is none else.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, you are ranting again. No one says there is more than one God. There is One God in three persons.
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Rob said:
Bosco said “Are you guys getting this? There is only the Lord, and there is none else.”
Yes you are correct but that LORD YHWH is revealed to us in the NT as the Father and as the Son.
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St Bosco said:
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45
The one and only God of Israel is himself the Savior.
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chalcedon451 said:
Did someone say otherwise?
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St Bosco said:
1 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved,
Isaiah 45
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, are you OK? No one has said there is more than one God.
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St Bosco said:
You did, and Good brother Servus did, and good brother Rob did and on and on. God begs to differ. He alone is the Savior. That makes Jesus the Almight God, and there is none else.
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chalcedon451 said:
No we didn’t. We said there is one God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
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Rob said:
Bosco lets take another angle. Can you please explain to us what or who you think the Holy Spirit is?
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St Bosco said:
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, as no one has claimed there is more than one God, you can stop imitating a Muslim.
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St Bosco said:
Not so fast bucko. You have been saying im demon possessed because i think Jesus is the father. Im showing scripture that says that the Lord God of Israel himself is the Savior and there is none else but him.
Stay tuned for more bad news.
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chalcedon451 said:
No, you are not showing that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son, not once does he say ‘I am the Father’. He prays to the Father, the Father is greater than him. The bad news, Bosco, is that if you do not believe in the Trinity, you are a pagan.
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jrj1701 said:
I ain’t said that you were demon possessed, I am saying that you are blinded to the truth by your pride, that you are reducing God to the level of your understanding and are refusing to consider that maybe Bosco could be wrong. The scripture says to test the spirit and it looks like you ain’t testing the spirit, you are saying in your pride “That is what I thought, them heathens and idolaters ain’t got common sense.” You need to get with somebody you trust and study the Scriptures.
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St Bosco said:
4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 47 vs 4
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chalcedon451 said:
Who died on the Cross, Bosco? The father or the son?
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St Bosco said:
The Son of man died on the cross.
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chalcedon451 said:
And that was Jesus, the Son. Yet you insist Jesus was the Father. You see how confused you are?
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Rob said:
The Son of God / Son of Man died on the cross Jn. 3:16
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St Bosco said:
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 49
The Almighty God is the redeemed and Savior.
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chalcedon451 said:
No one said otherwise. We just said that it was not the Father who died on the Cross.
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St Bosco said:
Thats funny, God says a zillion times that he is the redeemer, and there is none else. The Almighty God died on that cross, or tree.
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chalcedon451 said:
No one said He didn’t. Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. One God, Father Son and Holy Ghost. But Jesus is the Son, not, as you keep insisting, the Father.
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St Bosco said:
You rightly say they are one. So whats the problem with Jesus being the almighty god? Ive showed many verses that The father is saying that he alone is the redeemer. And that there is none else. Its not a big matter. If you have the Son you also have the Father
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Rob said:
The verses you have quoted say that the LORD alone is the redeemer the word used consistently for LORD in the OT in capital letters id YHWH i.e. the divine name the ‘I Am’ in the OT it is applied to God not specifically to the Father. The understanding of God as Father Son and Holy Spirit cannot be clearly defined from the OT alone – through the NT revelation we find that the ‘I Am’ is applied directly to Jesus – so establishing conclusively that Jesus is God. Also and we also find that the Holy Spirit is a person not just some inanimate force applied by God.
Yes if you have the Son you have the Father also.
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chalcedon451 said:
None of which says the Jesus is the father.
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Rob, where did you learn to split hairs? Youre really good at it. So is good brother Chalcedon.
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Rob said:
Bosco: I learnt it refuting cults and winning them to Jesus, it’s called rightly handling the word of truth – look it up!
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St Bosco said:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Isaiah 54
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St Bosco said:
Its kinda hot out in the sun here. Weve been having a heat wave for the last month.
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Rob said:
What’s the temp Good old California I have spent 2 holidays there attended a Calvary Chapel on another occasion spent 6 weeks in Modesto preaching 6 nights a week in 6 different churches.
Here the temperature is always about 30 night and day.
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