In our continuing dialogue with Bosco, some interesting vitas are opening up. Bosco believes that Jesus is the Father. As is his wont, he bases this on his personal reading of Scripture. As he put it in one comment:
Ive said it millions of time here that Christ is the Father. i use the names interchangeably.
When I commented that Jesus is not the Father, I fear it caused him a problem:
Do you still think Jesus isnt the Father?
I get it..you were pulling my leg. I guess i deserve it.
Bosco is convinced that Jesus is the Father, that they are one and the same. He is willing to admit: ‘True, one can say they are separate but the same. One is still saying that Jesus is the Father.’ If it were not so tragic, it would be funny that Bosco goes on to write: ‘I had no idea that the pharisees in here didnt think Jesus is the Father. It proves my point that they are blind to scripture. ‘ What this proves is that those who seek to read the Bible, a book canonised by the early church, outside of it, are the blind leading the blind to destruction. In the folly of his own pride, Bosco tells us that we can ignore what ‘Cyril of Cyprian’ says. Well, as Jessica has reminded him, if he actually took the trouble to see what other Christians had written, he might come to a better understanding of what Jesus meant when he said that he who had seen the Father had seen him, and when he said that he and the Father were one. As he refuses to read anything, he may not read this, but as there are many others labouring under the same error, this is for them too.
The question of who Jesus is lies at the centre of our relationship with Him; if we think He is other than He is, then we have a relationship not with Him, but with someone we have constructed from our reading of the Bible.
We need to remember that long before there was a written text, the Church founded by Jesus spread His word, and we know that long before there was any Canon, Christians had puzzled over how Jesus could be God and yet pray to God; how he could pray to the Father if the Father was God and He was God; and just what the relationship between Father and Son was. One answer was the one Bosco prefers, which is that Jesus is the Father, and when He prays to the Father or asks Him for help, He is really showing us how to pray, not doing something real; to the question of who was governing the Universe during the Incarnation, if Jesus is the Father, there has never been an answer, except that it is all a miracle. But what then of the idea that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father? At this point, Bosco has to abandon his usual literalist reading, as it makes no sense.
But he has no such need, because Christians have been there long before him. So, John 10:14:
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jesus often emphasises that He speaks for the Father, and the Father speaks through Him, and that the one who has seen Him has seen the Father; but not once, not anywhere, does He say He is the Father. So we have the irony that Bosco, the most literalist reader, tells us something Jesus never said. As so often, Bosco is reading into the Bible something that is not there in order to justify a reading he claims is literalist, but is nothing of the sort. So, if Jesus saying He and the Father are ‘one’ is not the same as Jesus saying ‘I am the Father’, what does it mean? It was precisely that problem Christians wrestled with from the beginning. Bosco, like too many modern Christians, especially those claiming to have been given a new spirit, neglects these lessons, and in so doing, repeats mistakes. I do not know why, when these people are given a new spirit, they are not given a brain to go with it.
The claim being made here is that Bosco has been given a spirit which tells him Jesus is the Father, even though Jesus made no such claim; that is Bosco reading John 14:7-8 incorrectly. Verse 10 says the Father is in Him and He is in the Father – not “i am the Father’. It is this personal misreading that shows that whatever spirit enters those like Bosco it is not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of personal pride. Let us now turn to the answers provided by the early Church rather than by personal revelation in modern America.
All Along the Watchtower 
I guess that to Bosco, Jesus is The Great Pretender; wearing his face like a clown. 🙂
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Quite so 🙂
What is so sad is that these mistakes were made two thousand years ago, and that someone who can actually read, like Bosco, prefers to read nonsense than some history which would explain these things to him.
I have a second one up later. Whether he knows it or not, Bosco is a ‘oneness pentecostalist’ – and they are devotees of an ancient heresy.
Bosco is a good example of why mankind needs the Church.
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Perchance, is the ancient heresy called Bozoism?
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That’s the modern version of Monarchism 🙂
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Ah so, amigo. 🙂
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Truly, there are no new heresies – just new men ignorant of history.
I am happy to accept that Bosco has a spirit, but having tried it, it is not of God.
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That is a conclusion I think many of us have made over the past year.
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I fear it is so.
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Next Sunday, at The Casa, is another of Fr. Bill Cieslak’s homilies on video, one that all, but especially Bosco, need to watch, the title of which is, “Are You Saved?” It’ll be up Monday whenever Jessica gets the time.
Meantime, there’ll be today’s homily on Monday with Fr. Peter.
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David, I take it the link will be on the youtube one you gave Jessica? If so, I will make sure it goes up. C
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C451 Yes, I want to make sure this week’s get up too.
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I can put them both up tomorrow. C
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6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Do read what Rob has written.
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And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
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8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
God,the Father says he will not give his glory to another. Jesus is the glory of god.
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Bosco – read what I have written and try to respond to it – or listen to the demon in you which makes you stay away from Jesus. The spirit you have been given is that of antichrist – read what I quoted from St John – it applies to you. ‘Saved’ – that is a bad joke Bosco – you are on your way to the lake of fire.
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10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
The Father dwells in Jesus human body, and all that jesus speaks and does is the father acting thru him. Ok. Thats nice. Jesus still is a man, but his spirit is the fathers. There is only one god. I dont know what you religious people are getting at. You say jesus is god but not the Father. Impossible. There is only the Lord, and he says that he is the redeemer. Religion has turned your mind into guano.
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So, you are saying Jesus is simply a puppet? How can a puppet save the world? That’s the problem with not knowing Jesus, you come up with gibberish.
Who is the person called Jesus Christ, Bosco? Does He have a soul, or is He just a man moved by God with no will or mind of His own?
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Bosco reading John 14:7-8 incorrectly. Verse 10 says the Father is in Him and He is in the Father – not “i am the Father’. It is this personal misreading that shows that whatever spirit enters those like Bosco it is not the Holy Spirit,
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Need any more good brother Chalcedon?
I guess you will toss that away like you toss all scripture away, while you repeat hail Marys and bow down befor the works of mens hands.
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Yes, he is saying that if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father – because He is God – not because He is the Father. How much clearer do you need it?
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Since when did god not be that Father? Maybe on that flow chart of yours.
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No, the Father is God, but he is not God by himself – as you admit when you say Jesus is God. Your mistake is to say that Jesus is the Father.
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I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
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Yes, indeed. Where does that say Jesus is a puppet? You read it into it because the new spirit you were given twists the word of God to your destruction.
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Good brother Chalcedon, im convinced that you have consumed a whole bottle of Chevas Regal.
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Bosco – if it would help you understand what Rob and I are saying to you! you might try it.
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I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isnt Jesus the first and the last? Isnt Jesus the great I AM? Wasnt it the Almighty in the burning bush? He called himself I AM. Jesus is also the I AM. Need any more?
The good news is, if you have the Son you have the Father also. Why? Because they are the same.
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Where does the Bible say that? You have shown where you misread the Bible.
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They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
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None of which says Jesus is the Father. It says he is God.
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6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Where does that say Jesus is the Father. It says Jesus is God and the father is God. Did you read anything Rob wrote?
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Who cares what good brother Rob wrote. Isaiah says the child is the everlasting father. And also the prince of Peace. You cant make this one go away by saying it aint so. Its in black and white.
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Bosco – do as Rob suggests and talk to your pastor. If you are not a Trinitarian you are not a Christian. I am taking the view that you are muddled and if you understood you’d be one; read what Rob says. I don’t expect you to take what a Catholic says seriously, but your own Pastor believe in the Trinity. Do try not to parade your ignorance Bosco, it is not a virtue – or a pretty sight. I am an Anglican and I believe in the Trinity = so come on my friend 🙂 Jess
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E tu , good sister?
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Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
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Yes. Now where dies that say the Father is the same as the Son?
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Jesus is the first and the last. The father says the same thing about himself. They must be the same person. Simple enough.
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No. They are both God, but if they were the sane person they would not be called different names. That is so obvious that even you must be able to see it.
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Now that you put it that way, i do believe they are separate people.
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As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he:
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Indeed. So answer my question, Bosco. Did Jesus have a mind, soul and will of his own?
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What do you think good brother? Are you going to question the Savior? You want me to allow Jesus to do as he pleases? It makes no difference. But what is sure is, that you better call on him to reveal himself. When he does, you will be able to see.
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No, it is a serious question. Ih, as you say, he is human, he must have a mind and will of his own. But you say he is controlled wholly by the Father – he is the Father, you say. But in that case he can’t be human as he lacks essential human attributes Bosco. You make no sense. Indeed you contradict yourself.
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I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Seems like jesus says his father works thru him. Guess one can call him a puppet. All i know is he shed his blood so i can approach god without a mediator. And so i can be washed in his blood in order to become righteous in the sight of god
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So, you say you are like Jesus? If Jesus was not human, he cannot be a sacrifice instead of humanity. Sorry Bosco, you make no sense, as I think even you see.
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“So, you say you are like Jesus?”
Sober up, then ask me questions.`
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When Jesus said…I am He, they fell backward, because they were hit with the Almighty god and the power was too great. Maybe you can explain it away. maybe there was an earthquake of somebody tripped them. It cant be that jesus is the Almighty God. Just look at the flow chart.
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No one says Jesus is not God, Bosco, so you are arguing against something no one is saying. Now, does Jesus have a will and mind and soul of His own Bosco?
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Jesus has his own mind and he does as he pleases, which is to do the will of his father. Next time he comes back, it will be as the Lion of the tribe of Juda, not the lamb. he will surely do his own bidding then.
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In that case he dies not do as he pleases, he has no choice and is therefore not human. Again, you contradict yourself.
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This has to be the toughest concept in all the world. How can Jesus be a man and be the Father? I cant do it. But scripture says Jesus is the Father, and the I AM. You can drill me on it all you want. Im just a dumb sheep.
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Of course you can’t Bosco, that is why you need to become a Christian, and then the Spirit of Truth will reveal these things to you.
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Er eh good brother Chalcedon, i have contacted my lawyers. Im going to sue you for using my lines.
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They are Jesus’ lines, and he is right. You don’t know His Spirit at all Bosco. Whatever Spirit you were given is not of God. Get rid of it and pray for one that is.
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Thank you. I will
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Your going back and forth. Jesus is god but not the father. The father is god. Jesus is not the father but is god.
My friend, you need to switch religions or something. Bowing long and low to Tammuz has made the blood puddle in your head.
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You need to become a Christian, Bosco, then you will have the Spirit of Truth who will help you understand what Jesus means. Non believers do what you do and twist the words of Salvation to their own destruction – as St. Peter warns.
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6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
One of the names of this child is the everlasting Father, is this not what the verse says? But no, it doesnt mean what it says, because you cant be wrong. the bible is wrong and Bosco the magnificent has a demon for posting that verse.
Funny, i dont see catholic teaching is against jesus being the Father. i though all you Papist obeyed you cult leaders i the fish hats. maybe im wrong. Im not 100% sure what the official doctrine of the CC is on this. I guess i can expect anything from a religion that provides graven images for its devotees to bow befor.
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The Father is the Father if the Son, He can’t be The Father of the Father. Even you must see you are now writing gibberish.
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isaiah is writing jibberish.He said thru god that the child is the everlasting Father. tellit to god that he is wrong. Not me.
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Did you read what Rob wrote?
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Yeah i read good brother rob. he makes about as much sense as you, trying to make scripture go away. Ive already posted many verses that say Jesus is the Father.Youre free to say they dont mean it. I dont get you sometimes. You keep saying Jesus is god, and god says there is no god beside him. Yet you say there is. You say they are one, then you say they arent one. Case in point about what religion does to a mans brains. It turns it into a slurpee
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To C: & Bosco,
Bosco it is clear that you are not gifted as a teacher but I do not subscribe to your comments C: that the Spirit that Bosco has received is not of God. It is also quite a jump to claim that Bosco is an unwitting ‘Oneness Pentecostalist’ it seems clear that he just has not been able to understand the ‘Trinity’. As a ‘Oneness Pentecostalist’ he would also have to deny the personality of the holy Spirit and I do not think we have seen him do so in these post.
Bosco I suggest that you speak to somebody in the capacity of a teacher at the ‘Calvary Chapel’ you attend to get a better understanding of the Trinity.
Jesus is the I Am (i.e. he is YHWH) as is the Father. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the Trinity.
It is also true that God (FSS) is our father and in this way Isaiah 9:6 applies to Jesus as our Eternal Father’. This is not the same as ascribing the title ‘Father’ as used in the Trinitarian relationships within the Godhead to Jesus.
Adam was the son of God Lk. 3:38 i.e. referring to Adam’s creator ‘Let us make man in our image’
Also the Holy Spirit is given to us that we should no longer be orphans n. 14:17-18. Notice in Jn. 18:23 Jesus says ‘WE’ will come to him (i.e. the one who loves Jesus and obeys His teaching) and make our home with him.”
The ‘WE’ spoken of here is Jesus and the Father and probably also applies to the Holy Spirit.
Bosco If you respond to this comment I will be able to email my notes to you on the ‘Trinity’ which may help you see what C: is trying to get at when you mistakenly think JESUS is the FATHER.
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Sure thing buddy. one thing..its a surprise to me that you line up with these hell bound idolaters.
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I hope you can help here Rob. I am happy to accept Bosco’s statement that he has received a new spirit. However, since this spirit seems not to be leading him to the truth, I leave it to you to decide whence that spirit comes.
The pattern is consistent. Bosco cites certain passages, and rather than explain why they do not mean what the orthodox Christian churches, insists he has privileged access to that knowledge via his spirit. You have MiR experience in this area than I do, but by Nicene standards, Bosco is not a Christian. I suspect he is a Monarchian. I am anxious to help lead him towards the Holy Spirit, but as you can see, whatever spirit is in him is not anxious that he gets there.
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C: As I see it Bosco is a Christian but very confused about the Trinity; he none-the-less believes that Jesus is God and I suspect he also believes that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God.
I think we need to put down Bosco’s rejection of your attempt to instruct him as due to his skepticism that anything said by Catholics or the Orthodox Church is suspect due to what he considers to be ‘idolatry’. For this reason I have directed him to speak to the pastor at the Calvary Chapel he attends. These churches are Trinitarian and it may be that hear (without fearing contamination by error) he will be able to receive instruction.
I do not think Bosco is demonized as such but he is vulnerable to error and doctrines of demons follow on closely. It seems to me that he has no theology of the Trinity and is muddle-ing along without instruction of any sort. I recently met a former Pentecostal here who had become a JW – he had never been taught anything about the Trinity – in all my years in evangelicalism I never heard a sermon on the Trinity though it was referred to and I believed it. Many of these basics are very poorly covered in the regular diet of teaching provided.
I first studied these basic doctrines in a house church. We each went the public libraries and studied church History on such topics and all the early heresies and regrouped to discuss our findings. Then dealing with cults I made a complete study of the Trinity throughout the scriptures.
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Glad you contributed to the thread Rob. Bosco has consistently demonstrated that he believes that the liturgical worship is derived from pagan worship and thus violates what he has been taught and how he “feels”. He has also expressed contempt for theological or deeper Bible study. He demonstrates that he believes the Holy Spirit will tell him what is right, and that the Holy Spirit ain’t with what he perceives as a meanevilnasty organization.
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That, I fear, has been my constant experience with him. But I think Rob is right, he will resist anything I say. It will be interesting to see how he responds to Rob. Were I a betting man, my money would be on him saying he is shocked that Rob has joined the babylonians.
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That is par for course, Bosco is using the tactics of trolls I have seen on other threads on the internet and the mentality that I am made very aware of being an Orthodox in an area where folks insist upon the heresy of sola scriptura.>_<
Prayer is very necessary in these cases†††
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I fervently hope you are right Rob, and will very happily support you – even if that means butting out and letting you take Bosco through the journey he needs to go on.
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C: I’m sure you realize I was not implying you should butt out we are both trying to explain the same things to Bosco. I’m fairly sure he will not listen to anything from a Catholic and he is probably unlikely to listen to anyone such as myself that believes many Catholics are true followers of Christ.
Our best bet is for him to talk with the pastor at the Calvary Chapel he attends about the Trinity – which he has said he will do – so we will see.
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As you will see from his response, he’s not going to listen even to you, I fear. I know you were not suggesting I should desist, but agree entirely with you reasoning 🙂 C
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http://calvaryle.org/
Here is the calvary chapel site. Go in and ask them a question. I dont know what they will tell you, cause there is no agenda there. But at least there are born again folks there as opposed to 99.999% of other gatherings.
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Bosco, why are you so reluctant to take Rob’s advice?
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Good brother Iri, catholicism doesnt go against what i was taught. I used to go to christmas eve mass with my friends. I loved it. I lesarned later in life, from a catholic, that the CC is a snake pit extrordinaire.
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Bosco it is wrong to blame the Church for the sins of men. Yes there have been serious troubles with-in the Church and because of the sins of men it has been a cause in the Church splitting up and fueling confusion, yet the Church still remains and is still doing the work of Jesus. There are things that must be worked out, and if you want to be a part of that healing process it requires you to start learning the truth instead of trusting in propaganda and sticking to pridefully held beliefs. Humility is a struggle, yet can be achieved with the assistance of the Holy Spirit and the help of knowledgeable teachers, very few can do it on their own, and it very seldom is done through argument.
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Good brother Chalcedon, i will have to wait a week to ask pastor Steve anything. He has a job and doesnt show up till sunday.
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Fair enough Bosco. But do look up posts here about the Trinity. Your pastor believes in it.
Just to be clear, the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, these are not three Gods, but three Persons in one God. Once you grasp this, you will see there are no contradictions. If you are as bright as I think you are, you can do the reading – here’s a good one from a non-Catholic source:
http://www.gci.org/God/3Bible
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Good brother Iri, the holy ghost leads us in all truths. When i say us, i mean the born again. A spirit filled teachers is also nice.
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Everything you say is true good brother,but you add your human reasoning to it. Ive wonderd myself how the trinity works, and still do.
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Just keep reading and praying Bosco – you will be guided into all truth.
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No I do not add human reasoning I interpret scripture in the only way that is consistent with all that the scripture says about Father son and Holy Spirit – whereas what you say does not harmonize or make sense of all the scriptures.
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You want the ways of god to make sense? Like walking on water?
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No Bosco that is not it, it is not just about making sense. I do not want to accept statement that contradict scripture and you are making such statement but do not understand the error you are making. You view is not a correct understanding of the Trinity in anybodies or ant churches opinion, not just those on this site.
Besides if you are claiming that God is sens-less that is also a big error. All that God does my be beyond our reasoning but it is not unreasonable. God created us as reasoning beings which is part of the way we are created in God’s own image. For Jesus to walk on water is not unreasonable – God created the natural laws and it would be reasonable to believe that He therefore had the power to over rule them or set them aside and so doing to perform what we cal a miracle. Miracles are perfectly reasonable things for God to do and for Christ disciples also to perform by the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Isaiah 9:6 applies to Jesus as our Eternal Father’. This is not the same as ascribing the title ‘Father’ as used in the Trinitarian relationships within the Godhead to Jesus.
What in the world was that?
No, it doesnt say eternal father, it say everlasting Father. Seems pretty clear. But as long as one has the son, one also has the father. They must be the same dude.
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Bosco, a wise man once said that it is better to remain silent and have folks believe you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Go to a teacher that you trust instead of just trolling for an argument. I do not wish you any ill will and you are demonstrating that you need help to discern what Scripture says. Swallow your pride and go to a teacher that you trust.
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A wise man once said….Oh generation of vipers, who has warned you of the evil to come?
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Bosco – go ask your pastor about the Trinity, there’s a good fellow.
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e believe:
The Bible is the Word of God and without error in all issues to which it speaks. It is our authority in all areas of doctrine and life.
There is one God, eternal, a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the one Godhead share equally, fully, and simultaneously in all the attributes of God. God is the Creator of the universe and all things within it.
This is taken from the calvary site statement of faith.
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So, ask them about the Trinity and get educated.
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Ok, i emailed pastor Steve. I asked him his thoughts. lets see if he gets back to me.
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Let us Bosco – and Jessica’s just concerned, bless her – she’s fond of you.
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Oh good brother Chalcedon, ive come to love sister Jess like my own sister. She is so sweet.
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On that, Bosco, we can both agree 🙂
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The unsaved dont know what tobelieve. Good news is, jesus stands at the door and knows. If any man hear his voice and open, he will come in and sup with him.
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You are unsaved Bosco – so unsaved you don’t even know the danger your soul is in. The reason I am trying to get you to talk to your Pastor and listen to Rob is that I do not want you to be lost.
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Ill stick my neck out and say that Steve will say the same as me.
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Well, let us see. Rob thinks not.
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stands at the door and knocks….typo
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Bosco – ask your Pastor about the Trinity.
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Dang man, hold on to yer hat. Sunday is 7 days away.
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In the meantime, Bosco, here’s another one for you.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/the_trinity
If I seem anxious, it is because I care about you and your soul Bosco. Of course, as my own long journey has taken me where it has, I don’t expect you to listen to what you probably think is a Catholic thing – but it isn’t, it is a Christian thing, and odd as it may seem to you, I love you as a Christian brother and want the best for you. C
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A bunch of bible quotes. that was refreshing. Thanks.
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Thank you, I found the verses you selected quite deep. “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? …………, but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
That is wonderful.
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Also to Bosco who was Jesus praying to in the Garden, Himself?
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Bosco thinks he was just teaching us how to pray – which is odd 🙂
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Like everyone says, they are three in one. He was praying to the Father. His role on earth was of a Son. What is one to do? Try and figure it out with human reasoning? Dont ask me. I dont know how He does it.
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What one is to do, Bosco, is to allow the Spirit to help us make sense of it.
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Bosco said “Like everyone says, they are three in one. He was praying to the Father. His role on earth was of a Son.”
Bosco what C: has been trying to tell you is that Christians thought through these matters long ago and made sense of all the scriptures and what had been passed onto them by the Apostles.
Many people got it wrong during history and each type of error has earned itself a name e.g. Arians believed The Second Person of the Trinity was a created being.
What you have just stated above was another early error called ‘Modalism’. Modalism teaches that the Father, Son and Spirit did not exist eternally as three persons but that God just takes on the role of Father, Son or Spirit as he has need to. This is an error.
The truth is that God exists in three eternal persona they are not just roles He plays as if taking up one role and then another during the incarnation. The ‘Word was in the beginning WITH God … and the Word became flesh’ i.e. the second person of the Trinity was always there alongside the Father.
Can you see the difference?
What you have said above does not make sense of all the scriptures about the nature of God (FSS) e.g.:-
Jn.1:18 No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
This verse follows a description of the incarnation and the Son while here on earth is still seen as the one begotten and in the bosom of the Father while on earth. So being Son was clearly not just a role that the Father played while on earth as the Son. What you have said above does not fit this text but a proper understanding of what all Christians mean by the Trinity does fit this text and every other text about God in the Bible.
The Trinity doctrine harmonizes ALL scripture on the topic what you say does not. Your statements actually reflect a number of different errors each time you try to explain things – you just do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no shame in that many Christians fail to understand the doctrine but you must go to a teacher you trust and if you cannot understand just admit it.
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It surely is Tom.
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