Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio says, “divorced and remarried [read: adulterers] can take Communion if continence is ‘impossible’”. __ taken from a headline story in the Catholic Herald UK.
Isn’t that sort of like saying, “priests can take Communion if continence is ‘impossible’” or “unmarried parishioners can take Communion if continence is ‘impossible’” or “committed sodomites can take Communion if continence is ‘impossible’” or any other simile one might like to create? And who is it that deems this impossible? The priest, the bishop or perhaps the Pope himself? No, the person who is trapped in a situation where he neither has the ability to feel shame or sorrow for sin nor has any purpose at all to amend their life. Yes, that’s right. The Church is not going to get in the way of the sinner’s ‘conscience’ that plays both judge and jury; after all “who are we to judge” or to claim otherwise to the infallible conscience of a unrepentant sinner.
Thank you Cardinal Coccopalmerio who finally gave us an explanation of Pope Francis’s Amoris Laetitia; after all he is in the inner circle of the Holy Father. So finally we can all breathe a sigh of relief . . . that is if we conclude that this man is actually a Catholic in his beliefs.
Of course this thinking, being restricted to ‘continence’ is strictly speaking to our teachings regarding sexually immoral acts. However, by the extension of logic, one can also make similar arguments regarding “killing” for instance. What if an ‘abortionist’ is incapable, due to the stress that it will cause his lifestyle, his wife and children if he stops? Perhaps he could find no other suitable means of support for his family. If he feels that it is impossible to ‘keep from killing’ then what is to prevent him from getting absolved in the confessional and receiving the Blessed Sacrament? Does his conscience have the same esteem and the same infallible worth as those who are living in sexual sin?
Why is the 6th Commandment the only one where this will be OK? Why should this theological thought end there. What of the other 9? Are they somehow not included in this ‘mercy’ that the Church is extending toward those who find the 6th Commandment too demanding? Where is their accompaniment and mercy? I just cannot see that this is the entirety of this new definition of mercy which is being proposed.
For there is no mercy for those who use mercy as a means to continue to remain in a state of sin and presume on the mercy of God as their hope. Scripture and the saints make it clear that presuming upon God’s mercy is a grave sin and only heaps sin upon sin. It seems that the Church had it right for 2000 years and now somebody seems to think that they understand God’s mercy far better than the evidence and teachings found in the Church, the scriptures and on the mouths of renowned saints.
Finally, I will float a possible explanation for why both the Church is accompanying and consoling the sinner rather than counseling them with the hope of saving their souls. It takes into account this new idea that God’s mercy is best understood by breaking the Commandments and also the novel idea that only the perpetual sinner is capable of assessing their sin and their own circumstance by use of their conscience. So if they forgive themselves, then they are forgiven.
I think that, like in business, nothing is given away and no rule broken unless the one giving this ‘pass’ to the person they are negotiating with agrees to a quid pro quo. In other words, there is no ‘free lunch’. So what could the quid pro quo possibly be we might ask.
Well, we all know that the curia has purportedly been harboring a powerful network [like businessmen create in order to get ahead] that will back them at any cost and often there is leverage involved [secrets, if you will, that nobody wants made public]. It is, in fact, blackmail and is part and parcel to politics, business and therefore we should not be surprised that the oldest and largest bureaucracy on the planet has not developed a similar practice.
So what then is the dirt and what then is the purpose of this opening gambit in loosing people from the consequence of violating the 6th Commandment? I think it is a long range view that, in time, the idea of ‘continence’ will be viewed within and without the Church as an impossible expectation for anyone. It will break down the idea of celibate priests, open the way to married priests and eventually nullify any penalty and usher in a groundswell of compassion and understanding for all priests who violate their vows of celibacy. Whether they sleep with women, girls, men or boys, how can we fault them for violating their vow of ‘continence’ which, of course, is impossible to abide with. They are human and they are lonely, don’t you see. They are loving men who need to be loved in return and it is something that is beyond their human endurance. In this long range goal, nobody will be held responsible or be laicized or looked at as the wretches they are when and if they are found out. It will become a new normal that will be accepted both by the laity and the Church alike. It is the ultimate quid pro quo. I’ll look the other way if you look the other way.
What we are witnessing is a threefold destruction of the Church; the destruction of the Commandments, the Sacraments and the Holy Priesthood. In fact the concept of holy, virtue, and piety is being denounced already and will soon be thought of as foolishness from a bygone era. Hopefully not, but for the life of me I cannot understand any other way that all the pieces can or will fit together into a brand new puzzle that once made perfect sense. For these pieces have been tossed into the air for a new group of bishops to try to force together [though the pieces won’t fit] in hopes of reordering the Church and making it reveal a very different picture than the one we once all plainly saw and were familiar with. It won’t work in the long run but it may cause plenty of problems in the near future.
But continence is impossible, no?
Bosco the Immaculate said:
Instead of worrying about what some phoney baloney religion is fumbling around with…why don’t you ask Jesus to come in and sup with you.
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malcolmlxx said:
Good point Bosco.
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Scoop said:
If you understood, as I do, that Bosco finds all religions including your own as phoney baloney I doubt you would be calling his comment a ‘good point’ Malcolm.
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malcolmlxx said:
What’s wrong with married priests? The Eastern Orthodox have married priests. Anglicans have married priests. St Peter was married?
I’m not married. but there are occasions when a wife and family could be a great blessing. I have been engaged but alas it all fell through.
How can Roman Catholic clergy really understand how most people live if they are supposedly celibate? In fact a large number of RC clergy have female and male partners.
I’m fortunate in that I have five siblings and we are a close knit family. Loneliness can be a great affliction and from what I can see around here many RC clergy are lonely.
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Philip Augustine said:
As a cradle Catholic, If there were married Priests, I would quit my job and go
To the seminary today. I also bet if I did that my wife would convert from Lutheranism to Catholicism.
There ARE married Priests in Union with Rome. The Anglican Ordinate has them as well as The Byzantine Catholic rite. It’s the Latin Rite that continues the discipline for whatever reason.
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Scoop said:
We have our reasons, Phillip . . . read the link to the Vatican website further down in this post as well as the other one. We make exceptions even now . . . but it is not the ordinary discipline of the Church.
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Philip Augustine said:
I’ll check it out, I think Malcolm should as well, I have no issue reading sources on topics. For one, if someone articulates a position that I hold in a much better and/or efficient way than I ever could then it makes sense to refer one to that particular source for edification.
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malcolmlxx said:
How can a married clergy destroy the priesthood? Maybe the RC Church is in error by not having married clergy. Celibacy is a vocation, but to make celibacy a condition for the priesthood is surely wrong? The Catholic Church must miss out on not ordaining many married men who would make excellent priests.
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Nicholas said:
I think this is a really excellent point, Malcolm, and one that often gets missed in much of the discussion: celibacy is a vocation – and not everyone is called to it. But in the history of God’s covenant people there have been people called to service who were married: the Levitical priests, the leaders of synagogues, Peter the Apostle. Now they may have left their wives behind, but Paul renews this permission in his ordinance that a bishop be a man of one wife.
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malcolmlxx said:
Nicholas,
and we don’t know for sure that the Apostles left their wives behind.
The New Testament is silent about many issues that can only be conjecture on our part.
The twelve went around with our Lord for two years. Whose to say that they didn’t return to their wives after Jesus was raised from the dead, or even went around with their husbands during the Lord’s earthly ministry?
The Gospels pack Jesus’ ministry over two years into four Gospels that can be read in an afternoon.
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Nicholas said:
Exactly, and reading the Gospel’s is a complicated business as I’m sure you saw at seminary – e.g. John’s Gospel in isolation would make us think Jesus cleansed the Temple at the start of His ministry. For all those reasons, I don’t support the Catholic injunction against married priests.
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Scoop said:
Since Malcolm refuses to read it, perhaps you wouldn’t have such a reluctance to read the link to the scholarly article that comes frm the Vatican website, Nicholas. He draws on far more than just 1 or 2 sources.
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Nicholas said:
I have read the article by Beale “10 reasons..”. I shall now examine the other one.
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Scoop said:
🙂 Thank you, Nicholas.
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Nicholas said:
I think I have a slightly different perspective on the matter because I am low church, but I suppose my reasoning is fairly similar to Malcolm’s. Essentially, my reaction to the “10 reasons” article is as follows:
A) Those points could be true if the RC system is true: since I’m not RC, I’m not in a position to answer the contingent claim.
B) A lot, if not all, of the claims are speculative: they could be true, but I would need more to go on in order to try and examine them.
C) These claims tend to present an ideal, but I’m not sure that an ideal necessarily excludes a sub-optimal version. A case in point: end of John’s Gospel, Jesus drops down from agape to philia in His conversation with Peter.
D) Tradition certainly seems to favour celibacy – but this raises at least two questions:
1. What is the nature of “should” in these documents?
2. What is the nature of “should” in our relationship with Tradition?
The RC posits the consistency of Tradition with Scripture, but the Protestant position doesn’t accept this premise – so there’s little we can really do to bridge that gap.
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Scoop said:
A) I agree. The sacrificial nature of the RC Mass is also relevant to any understanding of the need of continence.
B) Hopefully you will find more [and will] if you look for it.
C) All things goals are an ideal but this is one that is easily attended to.
D) Tradition remained unchanged until the 20th century. Should means what it says. And what prevents us from doing what we should?
I agree that the Protestant position doesn’t accept the premise . . . but then most do not accept that the Eucharist is a sacrifice either. So we remain, probably forever, separated brethren bound simply by verses of scripture that we both agree to and by our baptism.
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Scoop said:
All conjecture and make believe. With an argument like that you could say that they were all homosexuals and fornicators as well. There is no evidence to support your case.
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malcolmlxx said:
Scoop,
That’s rubbish. And why? Because we are talking about a perfectly legitimate way of life between a man and a woman sanctioned in Holy Scripture and Jewish Tradition.
.The subject of homosexual relations in the Jewish mind set would have been unthinkable. It isn’t mentioned because no Jew of those times would have considered such an option. That homosexuality isn’t mentioned in the New Testament is that it would not have entered into anyone’s mind.
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Scoop said:
Read the first link that I supplied. The fact is that it was expected that among those who were married and became priests prior to the 4th century were required to live a live in continence with their wives: for you cannot have two wives. The wife of the priest is the Church as he is conformed to Christ and Christ has only one Bride which the Church and it is a realtionship that is forever continent.
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Scoop said:
Your opinion and not that of the Catholic Church. As many have already looked into this and came to the opinion that the Church has always had this discipline we, alone, hold to the 2000 year tradition. It is established to some extent from the idea that you cannot serve both God and mammon. St. Peter was more than likely a widower and many saints have expressed this view. The fact is that as long as we have been a church the ordained clergy have not married and there is no record of another discipline being other than what it is today. Other groups such as the Anglicans and the Eastern Christians broke with that tradition so it is not surprising that you hold to your opinion. As a discipline it is something that could be changed or that exceptions might be allowed; which we have done in converted priests from the Anglican orders who were already married. But Rome has always been clear on the single-mindedness of the life of a priest; and they even depict it as a spiritual marriage. So celibacy has been the ideal and anything less than this divides the heart heart of the priest.
Besides, as my old and celibate priest friends told be repeatedly, celibacy is gift to be cherished . . . it is not a punishment. You either are called to such a life or you are not. If you are, then Christ will give you the means to be faithful to your vow.
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malcolmlxx said:
We shall just have to agree to differ. I certainly don’t consider marriage to be identified with mammon. As for the 2000 year tradition can you prove that?
That a man and a woman in marriage become one flesh is a sacred and holy Sacrament and identifying it with mammon is a seriously flawed argument.
Scoop, you say – “So celibacy has been the ideal and anything less than this divides the heart heart of the priest.” I seriously question that.
Quite honest;y that’s not true. Married clergy can be just as dedicated as their single ( celibate ) counterparts. Single-mindedness can be practised by any Christian married or celibate. To say it can’t is to deny the grace of God.
Celibacy is gift, but to say than unless a man is celibate he cannot be ordained is wrong. It isn’t Biblical. Read the Pastoral Epistles of St Paul.
A celibate priesthood is a late development and not an original deposit of the faith once delivered to the Saints. The New Testament must surely be the final authority.
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Scoop said:
Two quick reads for you, Malcolm.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_bfoun_en.html
http://catholicexchange.com/10-reasons-for-priestly-celibacy
Although, what we are seeing in todays clergy is a sexualization of priests and primarily in the ranks of homosexuality which you know. My entire point is to normalize this and to take away the unique character of the priest as an alter Christus or a man who lives in personna Christi.
So yes, we will agree to disagree. When our priests truly live their charism saints are plentiful as they have a sacrificial character about them.
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malcolmlxx said:
Scoop
If you can’t argue your case without posting links then its a poor show. I can’t be bothered to read them .
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Scoop said:
If you can bother to read your own citations that support your own conclusions then you, as you argued before, should be willing to hear both sides of an argument. Did you not say that there needs to be space for both sides. You allow none, Malcolm and therefore you are closing down the chain of evidence that Roman Church has held to [within its law] from the 4th century. I thought you would be open to such an argument. If not, then why don’t you simply respond to the wider purpose of the post I wrote . . . which is that continence is not ‘impossible.’
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Scoop said:
Obviously you do not see the priesthood as another Christ that has but one bride the Church. And you do not see that this unique relationship is a type of unique and continent marriage that unites all priests and Christ together without the hint of polygamy but as the unifying character of the One Christ. The Roman Church does.
Even today we admit married men to enter into the diaconate as we do for Anglican converts. But if their wife dies he has taken a vow to not remarry. For he, then, is to enter into a more intimate relationship with the Church just as a priest. The matrimonial aspect of the priesthood is missing and it detracts from the priesthod.
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malcolmlxx said:
Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church
Roman Cholij Secretary of the Apostolic Exarch for Ukrainian Catholics in Great Britain.
It is clear from the New Testament (Mk 1:29-31; Mt 8:14-15; Lk 4:38-39; 1 Tim 3:2, 12; Tit 1:6) that at least the Apostle Peter had been married, and that bishops, presbyters and deacons of the Primitive Church were often family men. It is also clear from epigraphy, the testimony of the Fathers, synodal legislation, papal decretals and other sources that in the following centuries, a married clergy, in greater or lesser numbers was a normal feature of the life of the Church. Even married popes are known to us. And yet, paradoxically, one has to desist, when faced with this incontrovertible fact, from assuming that this necessarily excluded the co-existence of an obligatory celibacy discipline.
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Scoop said:
You picked one side of the argument . . . but not a Roman one. Read the Roman arguments for celibacy and then if you still agree with your own denomination that is fine. I agree with the Roman Church which should be pretty obvious at this time.
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malcolmlxx said:
Of course you believe in the RC arguments. I don’t. In the end it comes down to a personal belief. You’ve bought the Roman Catholic line. I haven’t and have chosen a different one.
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Scoop said:
You say you don’t and yet you just admitted that hou have never read them and don’t intend to. That seems to be a bit hypocritical; yes I bought the Roman Catholic line just as you have bought the Anglican line. And yes, you state quite rightly that you have ‘chosen’ not that you have proof or verification that there is no basis . . . for you never explored the latter. You are the poorer for it.
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malcolmlxx said:
As a matter of fact a few years ago I did explore the Roman Catholic claims with the Local RC priest in Penzance..I was under instruction for two years. The RC Bishop of Plymouth even mentioned the possibility of ordination. It was at the same time as many clergy in Britain were joining the ordinariate. Many of my brethren left the C of E.. They all got a good hand out from the C of E.
I decided to stay and welcome the women who were ordained. I can find no good reason to reject women priests.
So in many ways we are poles apart when it comes to the priesthood. I work with a priest of the female gender here and although at first I had reservations and initially was unable to decide either way I have chosen to accept women clergy.
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Scoop said:
I prefer that the Church follow the tradition as instituted by Christ in all matters of conscience.
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Scoop said:
. . . and not least amongst my reasons for rejecting women as priests is the fact that the priest is to be a representative of Christ whose bride is the Church. Otherwise you have a sybolism that is totally incoherent and speaks to the inner chambers of one’s understanding that which is inconceivable. That Bride of Christ is the bride of another woman. It is unthinkable.
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malcolmlxx said:
Scoop,
The Whole Church is the Bride of Christ and the Church is made up of men and women. The priest presides at the Eucharist an I fail to see that the sex of the celebrant matters.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28.
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Scoop said:
And was there a more perfect woman ever made than the creature that was a singularity . . . Our Blessed Virgin Mary? But even she did not say Mass.
Yes, a family or household which is the Church as well as being the Bride of Christ is made of men and women. So you throw about Galatians 3:28 as a proof text? Rather a new understanding of the text since women priests did not occur anywhere until the 20th century. Seems all others who came before were not able to read scripture and understand it as well as you.
Christ is the King and Head of the Household of God. Christ has left this earthly aspect of the Church in the world to fulfill its mission and placed it in the hands of men of His own choosing who represent Him at the altar [a priest is made to offer sacrifice for the people]. One priest in particular is chosen among the chosen to be the visible or vicarious head of the Church as He chose Peter. Never has God had women offering sacrifices in the Old or New Testament Church. If the only thing a priest is today is an evangelizer then let them minister to the people as such. But as a priest of God . . . a symbol of Christ . . . no thank you.
You have taken the text of my post far afield from its point, Malcolm and I am not sure why other than these are hot-button issues for you. I’m sorry that you have not the same understanding of the priesthood, the church or the Mass that Catholics do but this is why we ultimately remain separated I suppose. So as you said before, we will have to agree to disagree on these other things. But other than that . . . I thought the speculations in my post were well founded. You seemed to have found a few trees in the forest that you want to remove and your tagging of them is duly noted.
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malcolmlxx said:
Scoop,
I appreciate your point of view. But I’m not a Roman Catholic. I owe no allegiance to the Pope although I respect his office as the Bishop of Rome. I belong to one of the Reformation churches and value the Protestant tradition.
Have I taken your post far from its point? Am I then not permitted to express my own thought and views? Its probably best if I leave this forum and leave you in peace to your exclusive views.
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Scoop said:
Do not misread my answers to you as being mean spirited or disdainful in any way Malcolm. I learn much about others via argument. To me ‘argument’ is not a bad or negative word. It is a form of dialogue and of expressing core principles and values that we stick to no matter what or who might assail them. So it is not best, by any means, for you to leave this forum, because the point is that we each have exclusive views and we never know what those views are unless they are expressed. If mine upset you then I apologize and we just won’t interact anymore . . . which is how I do with Bosco . . . though he continues to say the same things continually which I now ignore. But speaking for myself, I have enjoyed our conversations and I have learned much about those things that divide us [meaning RC’s] and you [meaning Anglicans].
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malcolmlxx said:
Thanks for that dear Scoop. Let us maintain our brotherly love and if I have offended you I also apologize. Dominus Tecum
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Scoop said:
No problem at all my friend and I never felt offended by anything you said, so no need for apologies just more apologetics. Pax Christi.
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Steve Brown said:
Just for the record…https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/it-gives-the-feeling-of-a-schism-ewtn-panel-analyzes-current-disaster-in-th
(men with authority discuss our schism)
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Steve Brown said:
And this one also: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/cardinal-muller-bishops-should-not-give-contradictory-interpretations-of-doctrine/
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