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The major, but often unstated argument against the idea of universalism – that is that all will be saved – is that Christ was incarnated, died and was resurrected to save us. If we are all saved by God’s mercy, the question arises why did he bother? There was a purpose in his mission, his suffering and in the work of the Church he founded, none of which can be adequately accounted for in the belief that we are all saved. At the very least, the requirement for salvation is faith that Jesus is Lord and that we are saved through faith in him. It follows from this that, embracing our salvation, our new life in him should bear witness to the changes it has wrought in us. That’s not asking for the sort of behaviour which some of us might find excessive (although we might pull ourselves up a bit here and ask how else one is supposed to respond to the Good News that we are saved?), but it is to say that a faith which in no way evidences itself is a strange phenomenon (St James has harder things to say about this, of course). Now we can, and we do, argue about the Church, but as four years or so here shows (and as history confirms) this is a fruitless pursuit; but the churches all have in common the view that Jesus came to save us, and to offer us eternal life.
Now it may be, as some would argue, that the alternative to eternal life is death, extinction, non-existence, and we have discussed this here many times (as the link will show, a surprisingly large number). In my simple way, I take the many mentions of hell in the New Testament by Jesus to mean that there is a hell. I am quite content to think, with St Isaac the Syrian, that it is a state of separation from God that sinful and wilful men bring on themselves, and that the realisation of what one has done is like a burning pain, and I am uneasy with the literal view; but I know what my Churches teaches and reject the crude caricature foisted on us by atheists who ought to know better. But whatever view one takes, there is a place of separation from God, and it is a place from which, if we but knew it, we should pray to be saved. But we do not need to pray for a Saviour – we have one in Christ Jesus. Although, as a Catholic, I would, of course, say that the best place to find him is in the Church he founded, I don’t, as I say, want to be side-tracked by confessional disputes. I know many people who are better followers of Christ than I am if judged by their behaviour, and many of them are not Catholics, and if pressed I should simply say God is the only Just Judge and he alone can say who is saved and who is not; I should also add that I have found the Catholic Church the best place to find my Lord and could only say, if asked, that I am sure others would find it so too. But, and this gets us back to the main point of this post, the fact remains there is something from which to be saved. That being so, then unless all men embrace Christ as Saviour, they cannot be saved. Those who are ignorant of his holy name are in another category – that of invincible ignorance, and the failure is that of those who preach his name, not of those we have not reached. But again, the conclusion is that people need saving.
Our friend Bosco tells us truly that Christ is knocking at the door of our heart – and we should let him in, not because we fear hell-fire, but because we recognised in his out-stretched arms the love he first had for us. Now there’s a thought for Advent.
A sombre reflection for Advent, C, and I hope that you get the opportunity to share your faith with others in your new work. The academic world ought to be a place of open-minded enquiry, and you embody that true spirit. Whatever failings you may think you have, C, you have always endeavoured to make this a place of respectful enquiry and dialogue. We call Jess the Chatelaine, but I think we may safely call you the Avuncular spirit of this place – no mean comment.
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An excellent comment, with which I thoroughly agree. I like the ring of Uncle C. even if he is a bit young!
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Thank you very much, Nicholas.
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I find the arguments for universalism to be extremely persuasive. However, I will never accept them for two reasons. First, I am not at all convinced it is part of Sacred Tradition. Second, as you mentioned, the number of times hell is spoken of in the New Testament, not to mention in Tradition as well, just doesn’t make it feasible to me that it is empty. Personally, this issue for me is an opportunity to stand before the mystery and in faith seek to understand it better.
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We are at one on this – you describe my position better than I could.
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A note, rather off topic, but maybe some will enjoy. If, like me, you have a problem with Christmas music starting in our society at Thanksgiving or even earlier, well there are a few solutions.
Personally, I constantly listen to internet radio and/or TV, not least because I have a limited tolerance for top 40 country which is mostly what exists here. This morning I ran across a lovely alternative. Lutheran Public Radio is running pretty much continuous Advent music. From what I have heard they are drawing mostly on English and German sources. Well, there is nothing better in sacred music than the alliance of Anglicans and Lutherans.
You can find it here:
http://lutheranpublicradio.org/
Enjoy!
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As it happens, I have also been thinking about that recently. When I ran Latin Club at my college last year, I used the last few weeks of autumn term to look at Latin lyrics of Advent and Christmas songs. I still have a few sheets of “Veni veni Emmanuel”.
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I suspect a lot of us have, the early Chritmas of the marketers is at best unseemly, and sometimes even pervade our churches.
That is indeed one of the best. And before somebody takes offense at my earlier comment, I too greatly enjoy the traditional Latin Advent hymns.
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Indeed 🙂 I also find that the difficulty and stress of buying the right thing for the right people makes Christmas less enjoyable with each passing year. I have steadily slipped into cynicism on that score and others. Still, I have been enjoying “O holy night” today – along with some Geoffrey Burgon compositions.
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Quite! Yes, it is so, and sadly, I often give Amazon gift cards anymore. Not optimal, but then again I travel at Christmas, and that is not really conducive to physical gifts, although I could overcome that, and sometimes do, if I stumble across the perfect gift.
Sounds good to me, Last night I was enjoying a good bit of William Byrd. 🙂
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Awesome – I think we lose something if we assume modern liturgies have to be all Chris Tomlin, etc. That is why I like services that make use of the older composers. I also infer that C and Scoop both wish that Byrd et al were used in Catholic English speaking services more often.
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I suspect so, and with reason. He was after all, Queen Elizabeth I’s Master of the Queen’s Musick and simultaneously a Roman Catholic.
The Catholics have come a long way in recent decades in accepting so much of the English/German canon of sacred music – good for us all in my mind, and we should use more of theirs as well.
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I certainly do ☺️
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Thanks, Neo – a good alternative ☺️
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It is, I’ve been enjoying it most of the day now. 🙂
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By the way, NEO, this article may interest you if you enjoy more unusual theological topics: it’s a survey of Lutheran and Reformed understandings of Gen. 6:1-2
http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/mallinson-nephilim.shtml
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I’ll check it out. Thanks.
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I am not a universalist; I do believe that some go to heaven and others go to hell. But I don’t think you have a correct argument against universalism. The question ‘why did he bother’? could equally well be asked of those who are eventually saved; why didn’t He save both Himself and us an awful lot of bother simply by creating beings with a sound moral compass, who were already fit for the heavenly life?
I consider the verses ‘Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.’
The whole of this life is supposed to be working towards what we will be like, from a position of knowing that we will be like him.
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The question of universalism is something I’ve given a lot of thought to this year. I’m not willing to be a full-blown universalist, as it has been at best a minority opinion within the broader Tradition and would make Jesus’ warnings about hell seem a bit odd. That said, I’ve become one who would say that I have a strong hope that the mercy of God in the end will surprise the hell out of us in ways we cannot imagine. I’m certainly no longer one who believes the majority will be damned, though I have no way of knowing either way, obviously. Just private opinion. Thank you for the thoughtful posts.
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I am with you, Steven.
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Quite by accident, not as a result of my reading here, I have personally been pondering Purgatory recently. In the old days, this would be the type of thing that would plug into my reasoning to come out with: Therefore Catholicism is wrong. But I don’t think like that anymore. Moreover my sentiments about deuterocanonical works have shifted. Now I am less certain…but that doesn’t mean I have arrived. Still mulling.
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Mull away, Nicholas ☺️
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I have found the Catholic Church the best place to find my Lord and could only say, if asked, that I am sure others would find it so too
For some reason, our computer wouldn’t turn on a few days ago. It still wont. So for intertainment I listened to the radio. And to satisfy my desire for macabre theater I tuned into Immaculate Heart Raido AM 93. A man came on a show to tell his conversion story. Ill make it short. He struggled to become a doctor, was from jewish background, married a catholic, allowed his daughter to be raised catholic. he didn’t care about religion one way or another. He started feeling the need for answers to life. He wandered into a catholic church after hrs by accident, saw all the statues and icons, was impressed, gave his life to Jesus and started reading the bible and became catholic.
His feelings and situation sounded exactly like mine. I was starting to feel happy for the guy but I knew he was on IH Radio. The interviewer and himself had this smug laugh everytime they referred to the CC. That didn’t bother me because the saved act like that when hearing stories of conversion. But I knew what was just around the corner. The guy said the Holy Spirit was , of course, guiding him. And that this big fat female queen of heaven, something he called Mary was also co redeemer and guide and what have you. I knew it. Take it from me,but you wont , that the Holy Ghost doesn’t promote a queen of heaven and the saved have no queen of heaven because there is no queen of heaven.
Satan is stepping up his operation to fool if even possible the very elect. This poor man was tricked by the pageantry and colorful idols he saw in this beautiful Roman Temple. My poor unsaved friends want to know how is it that I can tell who isn’t born again. Heres one sure fire way…..they believe in a queen of heaven and call it Mary, mother of god. Now, this sad soul had all the lingo down and the desire to follow Christ and lots of other good stuff.
The formula for Rat Poison is ……95% good food and 5% poison. Eat it and you die.
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I have found the Catholic Church the best place to find my Lord and could only say, if asked, that I am sure others would find it so too
For some reason, our computer wouldn’t turn on a few days ago. It still wont. So for intertainment I listened to the radio. And to satisfy my desire for macabre theater I tuned into Immaculate Heart Raido AM 93. A man came on a show to tell his conversion story. Ill make it short. He struggled to become a doctor, was from jewish background, married a catholic, allowed his daughter to be raised catholic. he didn’t care about religion one way or another. He started feeling the need for answers to life. He wandered into a catholic church after hrs by accident, saw all the statues and icons, was impressed, gave his life to Jesus and started reading the bible and became catholic.
His feelings and situation sounded exactly like mine. I was starting to feel happy for the guy but I knew he was on IH Radio. The interviewer and himself had this smug laugh everytime they referred to the CC. That didn’t bother me because the saved act like that when hearing stories of conversion. But I knew what was just around the corner. The guy said the Holy Spirit was , of course, guiding him. And that this big fat female queen of heaven, something he called Mary was also co redeemer and guide and what have you. I knew it. Take it from me,but you wont , that the Holy Ghost doesn’t promote a queen of heaven and the saved have no queen of heaven because there is no queen of heaven.
Satan is stepping up his operation to fool if even possible the very elect. This poor man was tricked by the pageantry and colorful idols he saw in this beautiful Roman Temple. My poor unsaved friends want to know how is it that I can tell who isn’t born again. Heres one sure fire way…..they believe in a queen of heaven and call it Mary, mother of god. Now, this sad soul had all the lingo down and the desire to follow Christ and lots of other good stuff.
The formula for Rat Poison is ……95% good food and 5% poison. Eat it and you die.
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Test. what happened to my post?
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What post? I will look.
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Can’t see any post from you Bosco.
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Thanks good brother. My comment laid bare the Mary worship. I know cathols don’t care for that.
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We’ve been here so many times Bosco. No Catholic worships Mary, and in insisting you know better than those you are accusing, you simply bear false witness. How is anyone to know you are saved when you say things we know are lies?
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Well good brother, its not nor has it ever been my aim to convince people that im saved.
Your dog, and to a lesser degree, your cat worships you. My daughter worships me be cause firstly im her dada and second because im so wonderful and good looking.
Yes, weve been thru this a hundred times. Cathols have some button they push that magically turns down the worship factor. Semiramis is co redeemer, has a throne in heaven and is queen of heaven, dispenses ALL grace, is mediator from humans to god or Jesus, you all conduct adoration festivals, her statues come to life……but you give her lessor worship than you do god. Im fully aware that this is a new line handed down to the faithful in these modern times because even non believers are asking Marys why they worship a female human. A hundred years ago you would have said….hell yeah we worship Mary. What gives me a good haha is how you say that the bible tells you to worship god alone, so that’s why you turn down the worship knob, as if you cathols obey everything in the bible. Heck, I don’t live by every word of scripture, mainly because I cant. But I don’t bow myself down befor graven images. That’s an easy commandment to obey. Just don’t make them and bow befor them. There have been a few times I was ready to kill someone but I didn’t and it was hard not to, but not giving a hoot about graven images is the easiest thing in the world to do, yet you cathol/Christians have kneepads in front of your graven images so as not to hurt your knees. And you have the gall to call yourselfs Christian. God ran the Hebrews out of their land because of idolatry, yet you cathols do it as easy as tiping your hat.
Yes, you all worship Semiramis, but you tell the prots you don’t just to shut them up.
Have a nice day (;-D
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I see where your problem, lies, you use the word worship in such a loose sense that you equate a dog’s attitude to its owner with our attitude to God. Your sloppy thinking doesn’t really explain, though, why we should take your comments on this seriously?
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I made an observation. I didn’t make up anything. And every cathol in here knows that in many of your Roman Temples they have kneepads in front of Semiramis, for your comfort. And most likely all of you have attended adoration events for the queen of heaven. As inventive and creative, and good looking as I am, I couldn’t make this stuff up.
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Worship is given only to God, we worship no one else. You continue, thought deliberate ignorance, to tell lies. Born again and tells lies? Or lies about being born again too?
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13.“I promise to help at the hour of death with graces needed for salvation, whoever: on the 1st Saturday of 5 consecutive months, shall confess and receive Holy Communion; recite 5 decades of the Rosary; and keep me company for 15 minutes while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary with the intention of making
reparation to my Immaculate Heart.”
This is a command from Mary. You better do what she says, or else.
And you guys made fun of good brother David Moniker for his wiredo beliefs. This is the kind of godless madness you cathols fall prey to. Give me a break.
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So many miracles and signal graces have been reported wherever the statue has traveled that, in 1951, Pope Pius XII remarked: “In 1946, we crowned Our Lady of Fatima as Queen of the World and the next year, through Her Pilgrim Statue, She set forth as though to claim Her dominion, and the favors She performs along the way are such that we can hardly believe what we are seeing with our eyes.”
http://www.wafusa.org/
You cathols refer to this carved graven piece of wood as She and yall crowned it and serve it. Oh, but you don’t worship Mary.
Jesus still stands at the door and knocks. He alive and is a man….not a piece of carved wood that you cathols love to follow around.
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No, we don’t worship statues, though ignorant Muslims and others think we do.
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Yeah Yeah….OK
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