‘In victory, magnanimity’, Churchill counselled. There are those on the Right who would say that having triumphed electorally, they should now give the Left a dose of its own medicine; but is that wise? If it was, at least in part, the festering resentment of so many at the way the Left behaved in power that sparked the Trump triumph and Brexit, is it really wise to behave in the way they behaved – and assume that the consequences will be different? Democracy is a hard school, one of its disciplines is to remember that one day the people you don’t agree with will be in power. I doubt, somehow, that many of those Democrats who approved Obama’s over-use of Presidential powers will be very keen on that tactic should President Trump go down the same route. By its nature, democracy is hostile to the idea of one party hegemony – which is why it is so often subverted by those who, finding themselves in power, think it would be a good idea for them to be there permanently. It is no such thing.
In the UK over the past four decades we have had two very long periods of one-party dominance – the results were good for neither the country, nor the part concerned. Both the Thatcher and the Blair governments did some things which, with a stronger opposition, they would not have done, and as the Tory defeat of 1997 and the more recent disintegration of Labour have shown, a long period in power can be followed by a long one in opposition. Churchill’s very long political career embraced both long periods in power and long ones out of it – so when he advised magnanimity, he spoke with wisdom from experience.
For a Christian there can be a difficulty here. If a party seems very hostile to our religion, should we not, goes the temptation, do whatever we can to keep it out of power? But we cannot do wrong in order to do what we think it right; down that slippery slope lies, at the end, something like a dictatorship – unless someone is of the view that it is possible to ensure that a programme of re-education can ensure that people will vote ‘the right way’; the Soviets tried that – and we know how that turned out.
The Church takes no particular view on which is the best political system – Caesar must get on with it. But it does take a view on what lies within God’s province and how Caesar ought to comport himself. So we have every right to take an active part in democratic politics – but no right to scream and shout and throw fire-bombs if the the result does not go our way. Does the electoral system sometimes throw up odd results? Yes. Do the people sometimes do something which seems very stupid? Yes. But that is part of the price we pay for living in a democracy. It is very dangerous that so many liberals seem to have taken the hump about recent events in the USA. What would they have said had their opponents behaved in the way they are now behaving? We should have heard much about the stupidity of the mob and the ignorance of the people – much as we do now from them. They appear not to be getting a quite simple message – which is that much of the electorate is fed up with being insulted and patronised. To carry on insulting and patronising them after you have lost seems colossally stupid – and surely, given the pride such people take in their education, they really ought to know better? Their attitude has already legitimised right-wing riots in the future – I think they should stop there and get on with using their superior expertise to show why they were right and their opponents were wrong. That’s what this democracy thing is all about – so can we just please get back to it?
And the guy standing behind the demonic clown is thinking, “I thought she could be the mother of my children. How do I get outta this one?” Yeah. I went there.
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A side note, doesn’t anyone know of Geoffrey? I haven’t seen his comments of late, I could have missed them. I always enjoy his insights.
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Geoffrey was in touch recently. He is fine, but much preoccupied with Mrs Sales who is unwell.
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Oh, I pray for God’s aide in their trial.
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Thank you – I shall pass it on.
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As do we all.
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Thank you, Neo
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Ah, those were the days . . . when the people were primarily, culturally and morally alike. Their differences amounted to degrees and nuances in political direction etc. And it was wise in those days to reach a middle ground in order to continue with a government that represented all the people . . . even those who disagreed with the winning side. It wasn’t hard and mediation of issues didn’t involve core values and principles.
The cold war did not go away after the collapse of the Soviet Union . . . their ideas spread and infiltrated the societies in which we live . . . even coopting much of the thinking within the political class. It has taken the people a long time to awaken [if they have truly awakened] to the fact that the enemy is within the gates and that the very foundations upon which our Republics or Democracies were built and the laws enacted to protect these institutions are now held in question and are being dismantled. How many more elections will it take before the talk of Democracy is only a bastardization of the word? I think we are there today. They do not portray themselves as Communists, Marxists, National Socialists, Peronists and the like anymore; they are sheep in wolves clothing who are selling their themselves as Democratic in principle. However, at times, they do seem to show their colors and go by the names; progressives, socialists, democratic socialist et al. Their language hides their intent and their purpose.
I would say that one needs be blind not to notice that the difference betweent the so-called conservative and liberal today is the difference between the hunter and the hunted. Do we not notice that at every ‘riot’ of the left their banners consist of Chinese Communist flags, Mexican flags, ISIS flags etc.? Do we not hear their calls for killing whites, police, politicians? How about their modus operandi which includes the burning and looting of stores, churches and synagogues? Do we think the Che Guevara T-shirts are only kitchy and without meaning?
Now most of these ‘rioters’ are nothing more than willing idiots who always show up to beat people up, break things and steal things. They have been operating this way for a long time now. Interesting that conservatives never have had such gatherings ever. Their peaceful tea party groups were only outside events with speakers and music and they even cleaned up their mess before they went home . . . and interesting that they were seen with that ‘hateful’ banner of the right; the American flag.
Now it is obvious to me . . . but perhaps not obvious to others that we are not speaking here of two factions of a single people. We are speaking of those who wish to save the framework of the Constitutional Republic our forefathers handed down to us from those who would take it away . . . and violently if they must. We are speaking of an enemy as vile as any we face in the world. They are two-faced, they lie, propagandize, they educate our children to hate their parents and their values and to hate the flag, the country and the electoral system which has made us the greatest and most prosperous nation that the world has ever seen.
Magnanimity will not unite them to us . . . and appeasement is only a fools errand. For it has been done over and over again with the same result; they gain in strength and win over our children, sow dissension, hatred and violence wherever they go whilst hurling epithets and words that more aptly fit their own thinking or lack thereof. There is nothing to appease here anymore . . . having seen those with white flags devoured by these predators. They are predators and we are the prey . . . when will we ever learn.
Churchill’s message was great for his day and would have right in the US when he said it as well. Times have changed and I doubt that the perilous situation we are now in would have escaped his notice.
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But what would you propose doing about them?
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Ignore their pretended ‘feelings’ and their pretended ‘anxiety and do the will of the people that elected you to office as best you can.
If we are ever going to fix this things we must bring back jobs, stop the left’s dominance in the school systems and make it ‘cool’ for kids to patriotic once again. We cannot mediate with them about anything . . . for they will drag us all into the fires of hell if we do.
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It isn’t the (largely paid) protesters, it is that majority of the popular vote which Trump failed to win which needs wooing – if not, this will be a flash in the pan.
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Appeasement has been tried to woo these useful idiots and so far it has failed miserably. Perhaps enforcing some real law and order on them will have some effect? Consequences for our actions has become rather unpopular . . . its about time that we come again to expect them.
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As I say, I’m not worried about the idiots – but there is a majority of the popular vote which did not go to Trump – and the huge number who did not vote. These must not end up thinking Hillary would have been better.
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If we ignore them and go about the business of doing as much of what was promised to those who elected Trump then we have governed with principle and not simply with broken promises. You have to achieve something as Reagan did if you want to make a difference. And if you want to teach people that they are better off economically and personally with Conservative leadership it can’t be taught with half-measures. Bring about prosperity and reign with just laws which are enforced fairly for everyone. Then your words have meaning the next time you say them. In my mind that has been the one big mistake the Liberals have made. They have cried wolf one too many times; calling their opponents racists, homophobes, xenophobes and a host of other ‘now meaninless’ words which have lost their meaning and usefulness. The simple American living his life is getting a bit tired about being demeaned and exploited as the left’s whipping boy. Tell some white miner who lives in West Virginia and is out of work that he enjoys ‘white privilege’ . . . so much poppycock out there.
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C has a good point here, the riots will end when the law is enforced, fairly and impartially. The MSM will shut up when their employers can no longer make payroll. Life in a free country is somewhat self-correcting, even if it sometimes needs a shove.
But this was an incredibly divisive and decisive election (maybe, if it works out). How can one not have an opinion or care enough to make the trek to the polls (or the even easier variants). That is something that needs to be worked on. Yes normally not voting can be considered as entirely rational self-interest, but that wasn’t true here.
Much of the fault, I think, has to do with the campaign being mostly negative and personal, and yes that always happens, always has. But one thing I noticed, when Trump started talking issues, and rationally, is when many, including me, decided he was worthy of my vote. Perhaps more would have, if he had been able to speak more effectively over the media, as Reagan did. Who knows?
But why didn’t others? Some, I suspect simply tuned out the din, but there must be other reasons.
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In many ways the country is simply too large. The Majority vote in the United States doesn’t mean anything, and it never has. In regards to Scoop’s assertion that we must get rid of the left’s domination in the school system, I echo that remark. If kids had a proper civics class, they would understand that the majority vote is meaningless here, the reason being is that ultimately we have 50 majority votes with points assigned to each state based on population. The reason being is so that we’re not all vassal states of the Democratic Republic of Kalifornia. Also, with concern to Scoop’s remarks, I remember substitute teaching at a Junior High, where in their Social Studies curriculum they had assignments where they select the best people let live on an island based on their age, strength, sex and skills–if that didn’t scream Soviet ideology. They also literally took the kids to the street with banners to teach them how to protest!
I was floored. I would literally work five jobs to send my kids to Catholic school to avoid that leftist indoctrination training.
One of the other problems I have with Universities and President Obama is their disdain for Nationalism. My concern is twofold: #1 I think they use hyperbole to persuade folks opinions (nazism) rather than look at positive ethnic nationalism (Poland) #2 They’re presenting an alternative of globalism and ignoring its hyperbolic response (USSR)
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Quite, and that is exactly the reason that my highest virtue in the American sense, is constitutionalism, which doesn’t translate all that well to the UK. But in any case, there are rules, of behavior and comportment, which exist for a reason. For all our depression, dejection and disappointment in 2012, very few advocated breaking the rule of law, and there were no riots. The ideal was to strengthen the opposition. Indeed, the thought that the Democrats were the permanent government did the most damage to the Rule of Law in at least a generation, a very clear example of why we need opposition parties. And that is how Trump (for good or ill) happened.
And yes, I think the disintegration of both UKIP and the Labor party is likely the worst thing to happen to the Tories in quite a while.
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I don’t think there is a fix to this problem from an exterior point of view, which is why I salute people like David Wood and NEO who make the point that the US Constitution was designed for a moral people who basically knew what their conscience said and followed it, or at that very least acknowledged it was true in public. We could talk about educational and political solutions (e.g. making basic critical thinking mandatory in all schools and colleges) – but sooner or later we’d all reach an extreme we don’t wish to countenance. I don’t think anyone here would propose imposing a Christian theocracy on our nations – even if we had the power to do so. The corruption is within and that can only be tackled by the Church, or, more accurately, the Spirit. But I do agree with Scoop’s underlying premise that we need to stop pulling our punches. Sometimes we have to speak bluntly: “If you do X, you will die a spiritual death – which is infinitely worse than physical death.” I know we have avoided hell-talk in light of Jess’ interesting posts on annihiliationism, but spiritual death is a part of Christian preaching. The lost are dying right now, they are dying of spiritual cancer and we should be telling them this.
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It is true that we don’t propose [because it is practicably impossible to do so] a Christian theocracy on our nations. And yet, it seems we have no problem allowing a stealthy left wing elite not only to propose but to set all the machinery in motion to establish a globalist, socialist leaning nation and all their immorality held up as a progressive move forward into the future. This they did in a measured, long term coup.
Personally, I would like to get the government out of all education. Burning and burying the ashes of the government’s Title IV grants would be a good starting point.
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But you know, and I know, that many, like me, would fight you just as hard for trying to establish a Christian theocracy as I do the secularists. Not least because which Christianity. This is a secular country formed by the Judeo-Christian ethic, and i suspect that is a large part of why it is still basically a Christian country, as opposed to say even the UK.
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Of course, our good buddy Bosco may find himself falling in love when he gets a looksee at the beauty in the clown mask. Please someone forewarn him of the hazards of AATWT today before he falls madly in love…………………
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“The Church takes no particular view on which is the best political system – Caesar must get on with it.”
Your statement in this post is absolutely and totally wrong.
Don’t know if anyone will read this, so won’t take up the time to look up the precise references, which as a scientific hard-data historian I usually do. But it will be easy enough for anyone to go to the Vat web site and look through the various orders/admonitions of the popes between 1850 and 1939.
You will find that they all reminded us that the only legitimate State is one with a Roman Catholic government obedient and subservient to the pope. And that rule goes back to the 11th century and even earlier.
Look up Boniface 8th’s infallible statement that /obedience to the pope is needed for the salvation of ANY person including the king/. (I don’t use quote marks because I am not quoting in Latin, but that’s the normal translation.) It was promulgated, after appropriate consultation, from the papal throne on a matter of faith and morals. And widely promulgated, since he issued it during a Jubilee year that attracted vast crowds to Rome to hear papal preachers. B8 clearly made an infallible decree, binding on every Catholic in perpetuity.
Like it or not, The society of Saint Pius V is totally correct when it says there is Roman Catholicism 1.0 and–since Vat 2–Roman Catholicism 2.0; and the new version teaches the opposite of the first version. You guys should find a new name for your new and heretical sect. I’m not saying you’re incorrect in everything you believe. (After all, I am married to another man.) I merely saying you should stop pretending that anyone before Vat 2 believed what you believe. It’s a sin to tell a lie.
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If you want to go back to medieval times, best of luck with that.
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Basically what I got out of Jan’s comment is, “I’m not saying you’re a heretic, but…”
Let’s all remember where Boniface the VIII was in Dante’s Inferno, and remember that Dante points out that he was nothing more than a man in comparison to Caesar, and that only a divine power can judge equally the two swords.
So, yes, prior to V2 there were Catholics who believed what others profess here.
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I’d also say that whole contention is definitely in agreement with Luther’s “Two Kingdoms”, as well. Always important to remember the point of civil government is not going to heaven, it’s about doing the best we can as a society in an imperfect world. In heaven, we won’t need government.
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On a side note, I’m perplexed with Luther’s stance on loyalty to Princes and going against Aquinas’ thoughts on tyrannicide.
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Me too. My best guess is that he needed the support of his local noblemen, and that swayed his outlook a bit. Understandable, but Augustine was, if I remember a bit wishy-washy on that point as well. Disobey unjust laws, sure; but obey the prince that promulgated said laws, doesn’t make all that much sense to me. Maybe I’m missing something. Although tyrannicide is probably a step further, I suppose.
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Philip, to save yourself a bunch of trouble, never commit tyrannicide. If however, you come across a T. Rex in your backyard, please do commit tyrannus-rex-i-cide. If will keep the neighbors from complaining.
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Haha thanks for the advice! I thought I had to stand still so it doesn’t see me.
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No. The best disguise to hide yourself from T. Rex is marshmallows. They HATE marshmallows. Stay Puft are the best. He’s the reason the dinosaurs went extinct. He simply ate them. He works like an ameba and surrounds them with goo which suffocates the terrible lizards slowly. If you get yourself a few bags and wait in the backyard, opening them slowly so the smell reaches the nostrils of the invading lizard, he will faint and then you simply put the marshmallows in his mouth and wait.
You could possibly rent a costume of the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man. But without the authentic smell of marshmallows wafting through the air, he’ll know its a fake out and might eat you. So don’t forget the marshmallows. They work! Have you ever heard of any girl scouts camping out in the woods be accosted by lone dinosaurs? No! Why? because they never forget to bring the marshmallows, silly man. They are the ones who came up with their motto “Be Prepared,” and the boy scouts stole it. It is the reason they bring the marshmallows on camping trips. The ONLY reason – to keep the dinosaurs away. Now you know. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Good sister Jan, you forget that the catholic cult of personality has put on a happy face and is trying to distance itself from its past, and its past infallible teachings. The faithful have devised numerous devices to argue why their past teachings don’t really mean what they say.
I love it.
Since they choose to remain in that cult, they are forced to explain things away that contradict what they are trying to put forth now as catholic happy face doctrine. Its great fun to watch.
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… are you sure that this is a ‘good sister’ rather than a ‘good brother’? Firstly, Rogozinski, as a surname, looks vaguely Polish – hence ‘Jan’ is a boy’s name (English translation – John).
Furthermore, the poster states ‘After all, I am married to another man’. Most women would write ‘I am married to a man’ – the ‘another’ seems to give it away.
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Yes, I looked at that. I figured she meant that she divorced,(which is bad for cathols) and had married another man. I didn’t give it a second thought. Its like when someone asks me hows Sandra doing….I say, “well, ive got another girlfriend”
I never expect a raging homer to come in here or any site that deals with salvation and scriptural topics and give their opinions, especially in a notorious catholic site as this one(which is supposed to be an Anglican site but was hijacked by the Marys).
Homers are more welcome in prot and Anglican site than the intolerant catholic inquisition sites. Me, personally….I feel the catholic homosexual is perplexed tremendously. How come all the clerics can be gay as blades but the man in the pew or behind the organ cant be.
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Bosco – you of all people should know that there is no essential difference between Anglicans and Catholics. They both share the same essential features; namely, spiritual big cheeses who wear funny hats and dress in Marlene Dietrich outfits. There is no difference.
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… I clicked on the name, but the link leads to an arse-book account and says that you have to log into arse-book to go further. Since I don’t have an arse-book account (and have no intention of opening one) I couldn’t get further information on the person. But I’d be prepared to bet you a virtual pint of Guinness that this Jan Rogozinski is a boy (and not a girl).
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What, prey tell, in the world is an arse book?
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Never mind. I clicked on good whatevers name. Its face book. You call it arse book. That’s funny. I didn’t know you had a sense of humor.
And yes, I have suspected Anglicanism was the same as Catholicism. Nuns and fish hat holymen. Only the aanglicans clergy doesn’t mind being open about being solidly homosexual. Anglicaan priests are jumping ship, because the protection is better in the church of Mary. Now the predator doesn’t worry about being caught.
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Thank you for that warm welcome good sister.
The big chief cathol here talks about hoe the CC doesn’t play politics and how sad the political situation is….everywhere.
He forgets who the wonderful catholic churchs patron saint of politicians is.
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Did I forget to mention who the wonderful catholic churchs patron saint of politicians is? Since no cathol was willing to fill in the blank, ill fill it in.
Its none other than Tomas More, thank you very much. A man who strapped innocent people to the rack to be torn apart….for what?….their crime being……they owned a bible. Oh well, that there is enough to qualify him for sainthood in the beautiful catholic cult of personality.
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So, Bosco. The lady in the clown suit. Relative or lover?
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What makes you think that’s a female clown? Looks like a dude to me.
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Hey, if the clown in the above pic is a bunny, im ready Freddy.
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Trump made a good point in an interview when he said that, had the system been majoritarian, he would have campaigned differently. It is worth noting that in California, for example, there was very low turnout among Republicans. Trump was unlikely to win, and the Senate race was between two Democrats, so that, unless you lived in a Republican or competitive Congressional District, there was no incentive to come out and vote. Of course, the same was true in heavily Republican states. As the United Kingdom’s adoption of PR for the European Parliament shows, when you alter the electoral system, the behaviour of voters changes, which is why the popular vote loss is less of a ‘thing’ than it is sometimes made out to be.
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Yes, exactly. In fact, without California, Trump decisively won the popular vote. Without the Electoral College, there would have been little point in campaigning in, or paying attention to anybody but New York, Illinois, and California. That what it was designed to prevent and it worked perfectly.
By the way, very good to see you here, I’ve often gained from listening to your podcasts.
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