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As we have had a little turbulence on this subject in the comments sections recently, David Monier Williams, one of our ‘originals’ wants to outline his views on therapy. This is the first of two posts.
I’d like you to consider just some of the more common problems that many of us face in our lives:
1. How do you help a person that was born and grew up in a seriously dysfunctional family e.g. drugs, alcohol, abuse and violence? These are all trans-generational diseases. Geoffrey and Dave would have you believe that nobody should go to therapy unless their crazy or sinful. Jock, believes it’s anti-Christian, after all God can cure anything…just pray.
2. How do you help a person that because of this upbringing married an abuser? Now why would you do a stupid thing like that? I don’t know anyone who’s done that you hear them say. How would you know? The abused person, usually a woman, is too ashamed to tell anyone. She married him because all her childhood told her that love was shown by being abused. Just like Pavlov’s Dog.
3. How do you help a young man joins the military and experiences the horrors of combat, returning with a diagnosis of PTSD? A few of the symptoms are: night terrors, hyper-vigilantism, and hair-trigger anger. They mange it with drugs, alcoholism and homelessness.
The Armed Forces of both the UK and US, after the person has been diagnosed drugs them. When they return for a second, third and fourth visit, they never see the same person twice and are given more and stronger drugs. They are now walking Zombies. Their choices before getting to therapy are to stay on the drugs, get off them and live with their PTSD or do the other thing. This is EVIL.
Upon entering therapy, there are three choices: EMDR (look it up) which is at best a band-aid; Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) which in identifies the many and various triggers(visual, auditory, kinesthetic, olfactory, gustatory which set off the PTSD behaviour with each of the various traumas. This means that to some extent they have to re-live a portion of each trauma many times to identify all the triggers. It is time consuming and above all EVIL; lastly there is Exposure or Flooding Therapy which gets the person, after being taught relation techniques, to re-live each trauma until the person is desensitized to it. This again is time consuming and the greatest of all the EVILS. So you survived the Holocaust…go back and re-live it again and again and again.
4. How do you help a person who is agonizingly shy or stutters or because of their total insecurity as a child they can’t function in society? What about those that have relationship problems that Geoffrey, Jock and Dave can’t work out with their spouses …head straight for divorce?
5. How do you help those that smoke or drug addicted or alcoholics or a combination of the three etc….hey just quit!
6. How do you help those who are phobic, God forbid, agoraphobic…live with it!
7. How to help those that are grieving for a dead loved one….oh just get over it and move on!
8. How to help people who are totally stressed out…we know now what that can do to the body. Guess what eventually it can provide the physiology for cancer. Just live with it…I do!
9. How do you help a person with idiopathic tremors, where both the whole body and voice are involved. They can’t hold a job or even communicate normally with loved ones let alone strangers? Hey, just suck it up?
10. How to help those with Chronic Degenerative Diseases like cancer. These diseases have three components all of which needs be addressed: Physiological, Psychological and Spiritual.
You got to be nuts it’s just your body! It’s all in your head!
Cancer is buried anger.
Psychologically speaking:
What is a mastectomy? It’s getting something off your chest! No, it’s not funny! Remind me sometime and I’ll tell you a story about breast cancer and a psychic.
What is Bladder Cancer? It’s being pissed at someone or something. If your bladder shuts down..then you’re totally pissed off!
I could go on.
Now we come to the psychotic and neurotic which in many cases require heavy duty drugs and even possible incarceration. I leave those to the Psychiatrist MDs.
We have moved on from Heroic Medicine through Sigmund Fraud etc. to the 21st Century.
So what is the function of the Therapist no matter the variety.
People come to therapy because they are stuck. They’re stuck in certain limiting beliefs about themselves others and the world around them. They’re stuck holding on to false values and debilitating and or destructive behaviours. Some see only one way out…they’re robotic. Some see one of two ways out…they’re in dilemma.
Therapist offers choices, options and possibilities. That’s all therapy is. Choice is always three possibilities and in most cases there are three thousand and three possibilities. These choices must be those of the client not the therapist. The therapist must make sure that the options selected by the client are in their total best interests.
There are many types of therapy the least used now is Fraudian. It takes much too long and therefore too expensive. Sadly, most therapists have great difficulty identifying precisely when and how a person has changed. This also means that the client is in doubt. I run into many who think they’ve dealt with their life long traumas only to find out they’ve not. This leads in many cases of fee raping rather than therapy.
So what do you expect to happen when you go to a traditional therapist as opposed to someone like me?
End of Part One.
All Along the Watchtower 
Wonderous! All types of therapy (except I am assuming your own) are either ‘sticking plaster’ or ‘EVIL’ – couldn’t have put it better myself. The only difference between us is you think your brand of witchcraft is different, I lump it with the rest of the three-card trick merchants in the Wild West Medicine Show.
Good to see that the more things change the more they stay the same – looking forward to the next instalment of Uncle Dave’s Wild West Medicine Show – in which the snake-oil will be sold to the credulous.
I see not the slightest evidence that you believe Christianity can change anyone’s life. I have seen it do so, again and again. What I would have you believe is Jesus heals us.
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Geoffrey: if you were diagnosed with cancer would you tell the doctor, “That’s great! Jesus will heal me!” or would you have a go at conventional medicine as well? Jesus never condemned the work of doctors, and neither should we. They don’t replace faith; they are simply using the human resources God gave us.
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Did you read about Eanegrams and your Church’s view of them? I would certainly see a qualified practitioner – I would avaoid a quack, and this guy’s the quackiest quack. Up to you. Your church seems to take a dim view – except for the Jesuits – I would not have thought that would endear it to you?
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I was responding to your seeming dismissal of all forms of therapy, not merely quacks who prey on the gullible with nonsense like the enneagram. And when you say ‘your Church’ it sounds a bit dismissive: not all Catholics – or indeed the Magisterium – think the Enneagram is compatible with Christianity. Attacking and mocking the rubbish is easy; defending why some therapy is good and works and is not un-Christian is harder.
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Some therapy works, but one of the things that is rotting our society is the belief that expert therapists know everything – that’s why we now have goodness knows how many ‘genders’ and why we all now have to pretend to believe that. I wonder how much ‘gender-reassignment’ costs the NHS. If you got rid of that and of abortion, there might be enough to pay for proper therapy.
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You write:
‘Jock, believes it’s anti-Christian, after all God can cure anything…just pray.’
Seems pretty much on the button. I take it you don’t believe God can cure anything or that prayer works – would that be because they are free by any chance?
Will we get the rates you charge when we get to your snake oil pitch?
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Geoffrey – he hasn’t (yet) answered the basic question: what is therapy? What does the therapist do?
I believe that if Christianity means anything at all, then it means that when we come to believe, we have the Spirit within us – and that our Saviour, Jesus Christ, is sufficient to meet our needs.
I’m waiting to hear how the therapist helps with the problems that David has outlined – what is the role of the therapist in treating them; what does the therapist do (other than talk nicely for a couple of hours and receive a nice cheque in return).
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He’s spent 1000+ words telling us that every other brand of therapy is either useless or ‘EVIL’. He could have saved us all the trouble by just saying they all are.
He mocks you for believing that praying can help and that God can cure everything – I presume his next stage is to say he can do what he thinks God can’t? The arrogance of the man is amazing. Every other therapy is wrong, God can’t help – but Uncle Dave’s Medicine Show can – for a ‘reasonable price’ of course. At least with the originals the punters got a bottle of coloured water – here they just get verbiage.
Somehow I think I am going to enjoy the next one – I wonder what ‘Eastern mystical’ practice is going to be at the base of it? My guess is nothing Christian 🙂
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David, I do hope you don’t mischaracterize your brand of therapy as badly as you have mischaracterized what I have written . . . but do carry on and I will try not to get stuck at point 1.
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So far we have learned that every other brand of therapy is useless or worse. If he’d just left out the words ‘any other’ he and I would agree 🙂 Whatever happened to God healing us. I am amazed his local dancing monks aren’t offering ‘centering prayer’ and healing.
Sorry, this sort of thing gets my goat (not, of course, that anyone would have noticed that). I suppose that at least it is natural redistribution of money – from the credulous to the unbelievable. How on earth did anyone get through World War II? How has the human race got this far? Still, to be fair, pre-Christianity there were witch doctors 🙂
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Geoffrey, correct me if I am getting the wrong vibe, but I am getting the impression you are not really going with this one? Fair comment is fine – but do remember that we are all a community here – please.
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Fair comment, C. I would not have commented as I did had this not been a whole post – or two. He really can’t expect to go on at this length and in this way and not have the mickey taken out of him. This is not a therapy session, and it isn’t California or the West Coast of the USA.
That said, I take your drift – and thanks for the gentle warning 🙂
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In turn, fair comment Geoffrey. As you know, I don’t like to censor anyone here, and yes, if someone posts then comment is expected.
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You are the perfect editor and moderator – but really, if this sort of thing goes up, so do my hackles 🙂
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Thank you Geoffrey. Ah, it’s the old hackles is it? There was me thinking it might be your personality type 🙂
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It’s certainly that – Yorkshire Ulster – nothing better for detecting bs at 10 yards 🙂
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You old curmudgeon you. 🙂
If you practice centering prayer whilst walking or dancing in a labyrinth you will be healed by the time you land on the home square. 🙂
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Isn’t there a pentangle somewhere in all of this? Colour me cynical – because I am, but I am expecting this to be his snake oil:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
It’s a phoney religion for those who have none – nothing to do with Christianity at all. If I am wrong and it isn’t enneagrams, I’ll eat his hat 🙂
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It isn’t Geoffrey . . . sorry to disappoint. He shared this with me at some point in the past. It has to do with some kind of wave analysis or something if I remember rightly . . . maybe alpha and beta waves etc.
I don’t completely remember as I was not sold on its usefulness.
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Read on through that link if you can bear it – there’s stuff about ‘waves’.
To be fair, I am not actually disagreeing with him that all the other types are useless, just querying why he thinks his is the exception!
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Well if your interested in my analysis for any ill, you need only buy my mood ring. I can tell all by the color of the ring. 🙂
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I thought it was Bosco’s favourite personality type who watched the coloured rings 🙂
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Those rings are on the lenses of his rose colored glasses. 🙂
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And there was me thinking Bosco used dark glasses and a white cane 🙂
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Well, if so it is one of the reverse miracles of going to his site and reading something on it. 🙂
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I’ve avoided the place – sounds like his posts here – no idea what is true or false, but if it is on the internet, that’ll do for a cut and paste job 🙂
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I think he needs some massage therapy myself. 🙂
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And the shin bone is connected to the footbone 🙂
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Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones. 🙂
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Hear de word o’de Lord!
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Do I hear an A-men?
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And a ‘Hallaluya brother’ 🙂
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And now for our rendition of De Camptown Races . . . doo dah, doo dah. 🙂
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Put my money on the bob-tail nag …
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somebody bet on de bay. Gwine to run all nite, gwine to run all day.
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And all night too 🙂
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BTW: I sent you an email when you get a chance.
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Will look now – thanks
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Many thanks – perfect – as my reply says.
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Good choice Jock 🙂
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Gets better every time I read it – ‘Sigmund Fraud’ – there’s a Freudian slip if I ever came across one.
DMW – admit it, this is a spoof isn’t it?A good one if so. Are you expecting anyone but an American to swallow any of this?
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C,
Please pass this along to DBMW–
Don’t get discouraged by Geoffrey’s comments here. I have learned over the years that when it comes to psychological problems, there also tends to be a spiritual problem as well. One of the most important things of therapists in the past I have had is to encourage religious beliefs unless those religious beliefs can be demonstrably proven to be harmful. Because there is considerable overlap between the psychological and the spiritual it is evident that we need both God and the physicians on this Earth to provide healing that we need. Christianity cannot though replace therapy. Christianity is a spiritual journey that must be handled at a different level than therapy. I’m not certain why Geoffrey thinks Christianity can provide the same healing therapy can as Christianity is not therapy.
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I don’t know about your Bible, mine has in it many examples of Jesus and the Apostles healing – do you suppose it stopped then? How long have you been in therapy? How long do you expect to be in it?
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Geoffrey, I am not debating that Jesus and the Apostles healed. What I am challenging is that this is an instantaneous event. Most of their healings though were miracles in regard to physical ailments as opposed to psychological ailments. I do not deny that Jesus can be involved in the healing process but I do not believe this is to the exclusion of medical practitioners and those actually trained in this stuff.
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As DWM himself says all types of therapy other than whatever it is he believes in are harmful, it would seem that those actually trained in that stuff are useless. I am wondering why his branch isn’t – and coming up with the answer that it is because it makes him money.
Too many psychological ailments come out of encouraging people to spent too much time thinking about themselves. Get out there, help the poor and the needy, sweep the sidewalks, work in the food banks, get away from the computer and focus on other people. That’s what Jesus has us do – and I have seen it work many a time. It is not only free, it gives things to other people – no cash, no prestige involved, no power/dependency relationship either. Try it.
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Doing those things helps others. Do not we need also help ourselves?
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If you get out and do those things, it helps you too, Focussing too much on what you think you needs causes neurosis – healthy sports, walking, helping others – just get out of your own head for a bit – really useful 🙂
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Yeah…been there done that. Still need counseling.
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I wish you joy – genuinely – and hope it helps.
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Hebrews 7v26: Such a high priest truly meets our need.
Newenglandsun – this includes you. I’m a bit worried about you (and people like you) – ‘psychotherapy’ can be positively harmful and the way it becomes harmful is when people imagine that it can do them good. They turn to psychotherapy (and spend an awful lot of money) instead of turning to Christ. It isn’t Christ alone, it’s Christ plus something else.
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Jock,
Christ operates in and through everyone in this world in ways we do not know. Jesus would have never said that “going to church alone and doing these things I tell you to do is the cure to all of your mental ailments”.
When a priest administers the sacrament of unction he does not do this in the stead of medical healing but does this along with medical healing to provide spiritual relief to the patient trusting them to the will of God in addition to the medical treatment they are receiving. We do not understand how the will of God works.
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newenglandsun – the whole point is that the rubbish (and, having read his next post, I use this word advisedly; it is satanic rubbish, directly from Satan himself – David Monier Williams is no Christian; he is a servant of the Antichrist and will burn in hell for eternity) DMW is advocating doesn’t have any medical basis at all.
The subject of medicine, as I understand it, attempts to study God’s natural order and is a scientific attempt to work within the framework of God’s natural order. The rubbish advocated by DMW is simply touchy-feely hocus-pocus which can do severe damage to those who are taken in by it.
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I see that now and I agree. I thought he was using medical and scientifically supported psychology now I see he ain’t.
IDK–he may just be honestly mistaken.
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Very true – and condemned as such by his own Church. Honestly, in your poof, did you ever read such a load of nonsense!
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I get it. Mr Sales is a follower of Mary Baker Eddy. We need to remember that there while there is an overlap between medical science and spiritual healing, we cannot simply do away with medical science in favor of solely spiritual healing. I in fact think that medical science is necessary at times for spiritual healing to occur.
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No, she was another American nutjob exploiting the unbelievable credulity of the American public. You do know that most of the rest of the world manages quite well without all this stuff, don’t you?
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You do know that Christian Science denies human agency in the healing and resorts solely to “prayer and fasting and spiritual healing for God’s miracles” right?
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No, no idea what the bollocks it believes. Christ heals us – just not the way we think we need most of the time.
Bloody silly way to deal with a burst appendix, mind you.
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Well I’m glad your at least some-what sensible. Talk later–G2G.
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Viktor Frankl, trained primarily in psychiatry also was a highly acclaimed existentialist philosopher understood that one of the most important things was that a man needed hope to overcome all odds. Those who were without hope simply just gave up.
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And why, if you have Christ, would you give up hope?
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Because as humans we still fall short of God and need to be picked back up again.
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True, but we are not, therefore, ever without hope.
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I struggle with despair quite a bit. Your sins and struggles are different to mine. But I also know that Jesus does not provide magical healing even when involved deeply in the sacraments nor should I foolishly go off my medications or refuse to see a counselor.
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There’s nothing magic about it – it is perseverance in the Christian life when it gets bad.
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I don’t see where our disagreement is then other than that you think this can all occur on its own manifestation without the use of those specifically trained in the field of psychology/psychiatry.
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See my comment on today’s post. This practice is condemned by the Catholic Church, it is New Age gobbledygook – as this hilarious account makes clear.
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It was not until today’s post I realized DMW was promoting enneagrams. This is pseudo-scientific rubbish.
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We’re all a little whacked. The dangerous ones are those who think they’ve got it all together. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Is this an American thing? The rest of us just get on with life and don’t spend too much time worrying about this stuff.
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Perhaps it is an American thing. I’m American and I don’t understand the objection with therapy. What is therapy? How have I personally experienced it?
When my Dad died when I was in my early 20s, I was okay for the first month or so. However something after three months started to make me deeply depressed. I tried talking to family members about the issue–nothing. I was away from my family parish, but my college offered free counseling sessions. I went and talked with a counselor and it was immensely helpful. I stressed no drug therapy. It was great to talk to someone about my Dad that was a stranger, but could give me insights to me struggle with the loss in my life.
Is this sinful? Absurd. I would say take the beam from your eye and have compassion. It would be nothing more than reading a book for motivational purposes or reading Plato or Aristotle. Perhaps, St. Augustine’s concepts of original sin are flawed being inherently connected to philosophy, why believe it?
In my experience, which I have had a small amount of experience, to make these claims are generalizations made without a proper vetting of all the methods.
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It kind of reminds me of the story of the man staying at his house during the flood. At first the neighbors came and said Bob jump in and let’s get to higher land. “Oh no.” Said Bob, “The Lord will protect me.” The water rose and a man in a boat came and said, “Jump in Friend.” Bob said, “No sir, I have prayed and the Lord will save me.” Finally, a helicopter came when Bob was on his roof and the pilot yelled out, ” Get in the water is nearly above your roof!” Bob replied, “God will provide my safety.”
Bob drowned. When he stood before God he said, “why didn’t you save me Lord, I prayed.” God said, ” I sent you a van, a boat, and a helicopter, why didn’t you get in?”
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What makes you think that psychotherapy is the van, the boat, or the helicopter? What makes you think that it is anything other than vacuous at best and perhaps; what makes you think that it may not be positively harmful? People fooling about with the psyche with the intent to improve it could easily make it worse (as David Mornier Williams points out – he describes most of it as EVIL).
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What makes you think that the Holy Spirit has limitations in the world?
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Because I believe that God created the natural order and God’s preferred method of dealing with us is by natural means conforming to the natural order that He created.
Of course, the Holy Spirit can do anything He likes; he chooses, by and large, to conform to the natural order of God’s creation.
In your case, it’s a great pity that the Christian community was dysfunctional so that you had to spend a lot of dosh on a counsellor who was doing exactly what the Christians about you in your church fellowship should have been doing for free.
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The counselor was free from the school so I spent no money. I was a young adult when my Dad died and 350 miles away from home, so I would say it’s a bit unfair to judge the Christian community in that area for failing me.
I would say its fair enough to say though I could have gotten the same results within a good Church community. I just did what was provided by my school. Although they did offer medicine to make me ‘feel better’, I just said no. I bet most don’t though.
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Perhaps, we’re operating under the notion that what I experienced was counseling and ‘psych therapy’ are different. As I just seeking to talk to someone who would listen.
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Good for you good brother Phillip. Don’t let these witch hunters make you feel bad. I went thru what you went thru.
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It may well be an American thing. My father was an atheist who, having grown up in Belfast, hated religion with good cause. He died, so did my ma, and yes, I felt bad for a bit and then got on with it. I daresay if someone had recommended I went to counselling I’d have gone, no idea whether it would have helped me or not – but that’s my point – over here we just get on with it. Is it just the fact that there is a lot of it over your way that means so many of you go to therapy? In which case, what is it about the USA which means so many of you need it?
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The United States is inherently a secular nation. Speaking honestly, I think that’s what Secularists here promote. I was at a Public university, I was young, so I follows my trusted Secular professionals advice. However, growing up in a religious home, I did have qualifications. I wasn’t going to take anything that altered my mind. Liberalism is a belief system here. I don’t think what I did was “sinful” as all it was was a conversation, but your concerns are may be with more intense methods.
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It does seem to me that the sort of ‘therapy’ David is discussing here is an alternative belief system. I’ve no problem with talking things over – we do it all the time, and I wonder to some extent whether this sort of therapy isn’t needed because of the atomised lives so many now live?
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Interesting, I think what I had been initially describing is a bit different than most folks concerns here. I was very against medicine. I just wanted to talk. As much as I enjoy this community the dangers of technology I think has hurt communication with our fellow neighbors more than anything. In my situation I was early 20s and to be honest my neighbors at the time weren’t concerned with my situation, sad but true.
I do not support mind altering drugs, I worked in a pharmacy for awhile and ADD/ADHD medicines were frequently used for children. I most likely could have been labeled as having one of these “disorders,” but my mother rejected the idea of medicine that changed my mind. Whatever attention issues I had or have I simply dealt with them. I remember in college if I was taken three classes or more I’d just study all four books at the same time, whenever I was bored with one, I went to the next. It was efficient!
But you ask if this is an American issue, I can tell you that more or less within our secular society, parents are not allowed to say no like my mother had done for me.
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Sensible woman your mother😄
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My mother deserves more credit than I probably show her.
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I am sure you are a credit to her.
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Actually Philip, one of the evils that “therapy” promotes is this: a young teen is diagnosed as say, ADHD or Bi-polar or a “borderline personality” and as a result is placed on medication and told they’ll have to take whatever it is for the rest of their lives.
“Okie dokie, no problem doc, I take the pills and feel better than I’d feel without them and come in once a month for the check up from the neck up. I can live with that.”
“Not so fast.” says the therapist. “There’s one detail: you’ll have to agree to contracept all your children away because we cannot be held responsible for the birth defects and cognitive problems your children will have as a result of your medications, so you will simply need to agree to contracept. Got it? Good, safe sex is better sex and you’ll be behaving in a very responsible way.”
Now, do you see anything wrong with this yet?
If the patient is “unfortunate” enough to find that a child has been conceived while the parent is medicated, then well, there is an medical procedure for that too: abortion on demand at the recommendation of the therapist.
Sound like a winning therapist yet? This happens every day of the week and in most public schools. The children entrusted to the care of the public school system are given access to this type of “therapy” all the time and it paid for with tax dollars.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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P.S. Philip I forgot to mention this detail: for the teen in that position, the therapist will ask in every session if the meds got taken and if the contraception is being done. It is considered part of the therapy administered. It will be signed by the client as part of the treatment plan and will be regularly reviewed by all concerned, including the therapist’s superiors who will make sure that contraception of all clients on medication gets maintained as a requirement for further medication being prescribed. See anything evil yet?
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I agree that’s not a good situation. It’s different today for kids than it was when I went to school.
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11. How do you help those caught in a sick sad religion/
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Tell ’em to leave Calvary Chapel – boom, boom! Next one please – you set ’em up, I’ll knock em over.
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Youre not funny
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There speaks a clown
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When the therapist prescribes Ben and Jerry’s and a spoon to find the bottom of the pint at least once a week, I’ll go. Until then, I guess I’ll keep on keepin’ on. Nice topic. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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3 dollars 50 cents for the Ben and Jerry’s and spoon to go with it; you have to pay the psychiatrist 200 dollars for the advice to eat a pint of Ben and Jerry’s each week.
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Jock, where do you live? It costs 5 buckaroos around here!
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… don’t you get a discount if it’s for purely medicinal purposes?
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For purely medicinal purposes:
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I’m delighted that I’ve stirred up a hornets nest. I can’t wait to see your responses to part two.
Geoffrey, has taken out of context my remarks about the VA’s mist-treatment of Vets and implied that I believe all other therapies other than mine are useless or EVIL. Well done, Geoffrey!
Now for all you bright sparks solve the problem:
9. How do you help a person with idiopathic tremors, where both the whole body and voice are involved? They both literally shook.
I’ll give you all a hint. In trance he was regressed to in utero, he revealed that while there his mother and father had screaming arguments which continued after he was born and placed on his mother’s breast.
What if anything was the cause of his problem? This isn’t brain surgery!
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Well, I suppose that’s one answer to the question of Nicodemas
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Now we have the answer – ‘In trance he was regressed to in utero, he revealed that while there his mother and father had screaming arguments which continued after he was born and placed on his mother’s breast.’
I suppose that when our one grows up, he’ll complain that we played too much Mozart and Fats Waller to him before he was born.
With reference to the therapy subject – the fellow is clearly far to self-obsessed and needs to get out more.
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Considering his problem, how does,”With reference to the therapy subject – the fellow is clearly far to self-obsessed and needs to get out more.” A. answer his problem, B. have anything to do with the cause?
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What a pile of old nonsense – he told you that in a trance did he – and if he’d told you you were a silly old fool with a god complex, I guess you’d have agreed with that too? The only self-obsessed person in this narrative is you – and if he got out more, did some healthy exercise and stopped poking about in his head, he’d be a damn sight better for it.
Great scott, we managed to get through world wars, an ice age, and God knows what without this rot – and looking at the USA now, I suspect you are part of the problem. How the devil did the first settlers cope?
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a) the cause of the problem is evidently reading too many books on amateur psychology or else he would never agreed to go into such a stupid trance in the first place and
b) getting out more is the clear and plain answer to the fellow’s difficulties.
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His mum and dad argued – never, get away – what a trauma. How much do you charge for this tommy rot? Can you tell me of someone whose parents didn’t argue? You don’t need to go back in a bloody trance, man. You really are a prize turnip. And by the way, where is your faith in all this mystical mumbo jumbo? Nowhere.
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From Geoffrey, we now know that he only believes in Christ and that therapy and God forbid hypnosis, used successfully by the Egyptians of old in operations, is held up to ridicule. Another, well done Geoffrey!
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Yes, I only believe in Christ. You ought to try it sometime. Bosco maybe on to something with this Babylonian stuff – you haven’t mentioned Sufis or Buddhists yet – I am disappointed in you.
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There’s always tomorrow!
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I’m betting on the Sufis. I’m betting on there being no Christian content at all. Still, Christ heals for free – no snake oil required, no fee, no therapist in the money.
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I’m reminded of a true story back in 1920 in Montreal. An Englishman arrived by steamship and met his counterpart who was a Zate. He put him up at the Zate house of McGill University.
The Englishman changed and came down to dinner, first stopping at the bar to have a drink with his new found friend. Nearby was a loud American spouting off how he disliked the British. The new boy in town kept his mouth shut and they went into dinner.
After dinner they went back to the bar for a nightcap. There the American was, still spouting off about the British. The newbie couldn’t contain himself and asked his friend, “What’s with him” pointing to the venom spewer. His friend answered, ” Oh, he’s an American from the Midwest, he’s so narrow-minded that his ears button at the back of his head.” Sorry NEO.
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after that, maybe you should consult a therapist?
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I’m glad he’s got a good cure for anger, because he clearly needs it.
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Reality must be strange and unsettling to him 😄
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I don’t know about you Jessica and C, I’ve having a great time. It certainly is illuminating.
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Yes, so far only your looney tune theraoy works – now I know why you have the hat!
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Sadly, sometimes metaphors have to be repeated differently for them to sink in. After all what’s a metaphor.
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It’s more what you’re for that interests me.
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It’s a gift that never stops giving. Hooorah! If it wasn’t so funny I’d have to cry.
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they are laughing at you, not with you. You are the only one who doesn’t see it.
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You mean theres a part II? My joy is complete.
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That’ll be where he talks about pentagrams and Egyptian medical treatment. Do you think someone should tell him about Jesus?
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Naw……..hes got sister Faustina the Mystic watching his back
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Personally, I don’t believe I can be hypnotized. My father was a MD and he learned how to hypnotize people in college, because some people cant take anesthesia. He was a whos who in the medical world, enterd college at 15 and so forth. Anyhoo, at parties he would hypnotize a volunteer. He would tell them their hand is numb and he would stick a needle into the back of their hand and under the skin. And they wouldn’t flinch. So, I know hypnotherapy works, in most cases.
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St. Bisto, be careful otherwise you’ll incur the wrath of The-all-knowing-all-seeing-all-feeling-the-one-and-only-Christian -of-the North. LOL!
Everybody hypnotizes themselves at least three to five times a day. Given enough time everybody can be hypnotized.
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Your inability to deal with scepticism, and your need to project onto it your own adamantine certainties interests me. Narcissists with controlling tendencies often react this way to reality breaking in on them. As for your Catholicism, it seems entirely on the surface, a form of cafeteria Catholicism which in no way impacts on your belief system, which, as far as anyone here can see, is entirely based on some gnostic cult. The wind passes, so will you, and I hope at the last you receive the mercy your foolishness will need.
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Since when did you care about Catholicism good brother Jeff.? tThis isn’t about religion. Helping people thru hypnotism can work in many cases. Heal the body. But still each one has to come to Christ for himself.Nothings wrong with healing the body.
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Bosco – if I could believe for one minute that such a procedure gave a cure for Post Trauma Stress Disorder, then I might agree with you. Unfortunately, read his next post – I simply don’t.
Mind you, since he’s a Catholic, I can quite see how he imagines that it would work. He thinks that if he takes a cracker and a glass of wine, served by someone in a fancy dress costume, somehow he has partaken of the body and blood of Christ and he imagines that this is good for his Spiritual health. Presumably, on the same principle, he believes that making triangles and all the hocus-pocus he describes will give a complete cure for Post Trauma Stress Disorder.
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Hey man, have you seen these guys with PTSD? Trying anything, I mean anything, even ouji boards if it can help. These guys saw things people shouldn’t see. When was the last time you were pinned down behind a rock because some Bozos were trying to shoot you.
One of the jack ass boys here, who used to ruin the computers going on naked girl sites, went Iraq as a medic. He was one of the guys picking up body parts and bringing them back to the big top tent. He wont talk about it.
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Coming out of the hermits nest for this one…
I do not believe in therapy – for the most part. Let me clarify.
God sent us a savior to redeem us from our sins. Sin is disorder, and as a result, sin disorders our lives, our souls, and our minds.
This is not always the fault of the individual suffering, yet it cannot be neglected to admit that if we could process life as God intended us too, no suffering however terrible would scar us or leave us damaged.
Thus we as humans are all weak, and the sins of others impact us, and our own weaknesses deepen those impacts and affect us too. It is inevitable.
In the Christian teaching we find healing for everything. In humility we find balm for our heart. In love of God’s Will we find consolation for the evils that we and others suffer. In patience we find joy – I could go on and on.
Of course, God works in each life relative to the openness of the soul, and many souls have been closed by an abundance of scars and traumas, festered by their own human weaknesses and struggles. In some dire situations, medications and the like can help, especially if the individual refuses to turn to the Christian way.
Furthermore, by God’s own design and Providence, some souls are not intended to be healed in this life. Not that they cannot be saved, but just that for some greater good they will continue to suffer and bear the cross of mental struggles.
Therefore, can God heal all? Yes. Does He? No. Is this necessarily bad? No. Does this mean those souls will be certainly lost? NO.
Psychology is a dangerous field. Mary herself warned in a vision that I read once (cannot remember source, sorry guys) that the memories of others should not be tampered with lightly. Its forerunners used highly immoral and questionable practices. Many do not heal their patients so that they can continue to receive money, or they drug them so that they will not be a burden.
For those who refuse/deny the helps of the Church, and its wisdom, or who God has chosen to linger on indefinitely, it may be a last resort, and it may help to some degree. But that is only as a bandaid, although a much needed one in some situations. I think it should always be used as a last resort, and a last resort only, as long as strong practical Christian attempts are first rigorously made.
Back to the hermits nest. 🙂
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….. well, if Mary doesn’t like it, then it must be wrong.
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So if you’re not a good enough Christian you won’t be healed?
How about pagans who have been healed through therapy?
How about Christians who have been healed through therapy Btw therapy can and many times includes hypnosis.
There are some bad therapists as there are some bad Christians.
Because there are bad doctors do you stop going to doctors if you’re sick?
What and who were the forerunners and what highly immoral and questionable practices did they use?
You make very broad brush claims with no hard evidence.
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David – she did not write ‘if you’re not a good enough Christian you won’t be healed.’ She wrote, concerning the providence of God, ‘for some greater good they will continue to suffer and bear the cross of mental struggles.’ Entirely different.
You choose not to engage with the views presented; you choose to deliberately falsify what others write. If that’s the best you can do then I respectfully suggest that you pack it in.
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The Apostle Paul, for example, had a ‘thorn in the flesh’. He doesn’t say what this was, but he pleaded with God to take it away. God replied, ‘my grace is sufficient for you.’
I suppose you’ll try saying that God may have been wrong on this one. When Paul was put into a trance on the road to Damascus, I suppose that Jesus brought him back to the time he was still in the womb, where he discovered that the reason he was persecuting Christians was that his mother had done something nasty at that time – so he was the innocent victim of a monstrous mother.
God should (of course) have advised Paul to seek some decent psychotherapy. Somehow, his second letter to the Corinthians wouldn’t have had the same ring to it.
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More as psychotherapy didn’t exist.
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She implied that all you need was Christ,”In the Christian teaching we find healing for everything. In humility we find balm for our heart. In love of God’s Will we find consolation for the evils that we and others suffer. In patience we find joy – I could go on and on.” So if you’re a good enough Christian you’ll be healed. You’ll receive heart balm, consolation and joy. That’s all you need.
She also hasn’t answered my questions and neither have you.
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Answers to David’s questions:
Q1) How about pagans who have been healed through therapy?
Answer: if they’re pagans who have not accepted Jesus as their Saviour, then they have not been healed of the important problem in their lives.
Q2) How about Christians who have been healed through therapy Btw therapy can and many times includes hypnosis.
Answer: please give an example of a Christian who has been healed through therapy and what they have been healed from. Paul pleaded with God to take away the ‘thorn in the flesh’. God refused. He did not advise him to undergo psychotherapy (including hypnosis), he simply said, ‘my grace is sufficient for you.’
My experience of people who have undergone psychotherapy is that they haven’t been healed in any real sense, you get ‘put together men’ who have been put together by the psycho-analyst. They are able to fool themselves that they have been healed. Just touch the edifice in a way that they don’t expect and which their shrink hasn’t prepared them for and they fall apart.
God’s answer to Paul was, ‘man up and learn to live with it.’
Q3) Because there are bad doctors do you stop going to doctors if you’re sick?
Answer: Doctors and psychotherapists are entirely different. Medical science, based on scientific principles, tries to learn about the natural order and to work with the natural order. Medicines and drugs are based on understanding the natural process, ‘if you take chemotherapy, then the cancerous cells won’t like it’, which has been tested in clinical trials. This is, frankly, not true of psychoanalysis, which is at best ad-hoc and at worst rather dangerous.
Q4) What and who were the forerunners and what highly immoral and questionable practices did they use?
Answer: I think it’s well established that Sigmund Freud was a sex maniac who thought that all psychological problems stemmed from difficulties with his favourite organ. I remember a conversation with a fellow mathematician who pointed out that Sigmund Freud had said that mathematics was a form of onanism. I replied, ‘Sigmund Freud didn’t know anything about mathematics,’ to which he responded, ‘no, but he sure knew an awful lot about onanism.’
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There is healing of the mind and body and spirit. Most therapists and even most therapy is not there to have the person believe in Christ that’s the job of priests and pastors. That is why with Chronic Degenerative Diseases all three, mind, body and spirit must be addressed to allow for healing.
Healing comes with three possibilities:
1. Cure
2. Remission
3. Healing unto a good death.
Only God is in charge of which we need.
My response to the second question is read part two.
Question three, too many people die of the slash, burn and poison therapies not the cancer.
Question four, inspite of being the father of psychoanalysis, why do you think I called him Sigmund Fraud.
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At what point did you lose faith in Christ’s healing power? Or perhaps it is better to ask whether you ever had it, as there is no sign of it. RTS did not say what you misrepresent her as saying, she wrote as a Christian who has faith in Christ. You would know precisely nothing of that, lost, as you are, in some new age nonsense. From what you have revealed of your odd-ball cafeteria Catholic church with its banal homilies, I am not surprised you seek refuge in eastern mysticism – but do stop pretending you are a Christian.
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@David B. Monier-Williams – I am not sure you read my comment in depth.
@Jock McSporran – Thanks, I think you understood it a little better.
____
I was simply trying to reaffirm what Christ said in the Scriptures: “Learn of Me, for I am meek and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”
The Christian truths are there not just to take us to Heaven after we die, but to help us to begin to unite ourselves to God on this earth. Unity with God brings peace to souls. If we do not believe this, then why are we Christian?
“Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.” The saints in Heaven do God’s Will in joy, peace, and love. It is entirely possible for souls to do the Father’s Will in the same way on this earth. Not that there will not be sufferings, but that Christian’s can apply the teachings of Christ to bear those sufferings in ways that can even be joyful.
If we miss this, we are missing Christianity. I never said that ALL who attempt to apply these principals will succeed – on the contrary, for it is not up to US. It is up to GOD. This is not a “do it yourself” self-help thing.
For those who God asks to continue to suffer for some greater reasons, there are options out there in our modern world. But why are we so quick to negate our Christian faith in favor of psychology, psychiatry, medication, etc. – especially when these fields are often heavily immoral in many of their methods?
I fear the problem is that we do not have adequate training amongst clergy, religious, and many Christians in the application of the Christian faith towards “mental illness.” Many say their job is to just hear confessions, hand out the sacraments, and deal with the basics. Wrong. These principals are meant to bring peace to souls, and if our leaders are not being taught how to help those suffering the most amongst us, then something is amiss.
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Blessed are the poor in spirit, theirs is the kingdom……………….how do people become poor in spirit? It has little to do with actual physical poverty. It has to do with being so broken your spirits inside are not adequate to meet life’s daily grind. Thus you are poor in spirit. These are the very first people God mentions in the Sermon on the Mount. He wanted the broken to know He has a place for them in the Kingdom that is specially for them. Hope to look forward to after a lifetime of being poor in spirit: or as the preferred new aged terminology has it: mentally ill to the point of disability.
Think outside the box!!!!! God has the broken at the top of His priority list. Please see this in your Bible and spread this awesome Good News to any you know are broken and poor in spirit. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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what does any of that actually mean? ‘Think out side the box’ – really, a cliche so worn out that I am amazed an actual human being uses it and imagines it has a meaning. No one is arguing that God puts the broken at the top of the list, what is being argued is that offering them New Age clap trap is not the Christian answer. Which part of that are you beginning to get?
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Geoffrey, you’re the one not making much sense, accusing folks of all sorts of things smacking of witchcraft. False witness! Rudeness too. Make some sense. Flash a degree that says you are qualified to pass judgement on another’s ability to counsel clients. Otherwise it is slanderous gossip. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree – are you for real? You’re sticking up for the positively Satanic here.
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To give her her due, she clearly knows nothing about the sort of thing he is talking about – now he has revealed himself I expect she’ll have the good manners to apologise. What an optimist – it will be her first time ever. Ever notice how these folk who are in favour of the sacrament of reconciliation can never say sorry?
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For goodness sake woman, keep up – read what he wrote today, read my links to your Church condemning it – and then have the good grace to admit you didn’t see it and apologise to me who did see it.
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I await your apology. Your ignorance of this stuff excuses your first reaction. It won’t excuse you being arrogant and sticking to this line. I have given a set of links showing your church disapproves of this nonsense. If you are the good Catholic you say you are, are you on the side of your church or the gnostics?
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Ya know, I don’t spend my whole day sitting in front of my computer. I’ve just posted an apology and if you think I should’ve made it quicker, then phooey. I do step away from all this nonsense from time to time dear. Phooey.
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Ginny, C has explained what happened. I see you now see that I was making sense.
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You religious people are funny.(;-D
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Immoral practices – do I really have to elaborate? Really?
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This seems to me an entirely sensible, Christian view of these things. Convince people they need some form of therapy and you make them dependent upon you or your ‘system’. I have seen Christian healers at work and seen their success. I have seen snake oil purveyors at work, and I am afraid DMW smells of it.
Our inability to work with God, our need to assert our way of doing things, all show that we have, indeed, eaten of the fruit of the tree of good and evil and believe we are wiser than God. If one seeks any explanation for the state of this world, it lies there.
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Geoffrey, for shame calling David names! You aren’t qualified to distinguish professionally between a good therapist and a bad one. To do so would take an evaluation of the actual works of said therapist. It would be a review of several years works. How can you determine that David’s entire career has been useless and non-Christian or that all his clients for needing him are less-than faith-filled Christians? This is simple slander and hopefully it won’t mar his ability to practice his profession. Shame on you for shaming his clients too.
I’m gonna go there: God said heal the sick, bind up their wounds, counsel the doubtful, comfort the sorrowing, etc. These are both corporeal and spiritual works of mercy and are required of all of us on a small scale as Christians. On a larger scale it is a very valid and beneficial profession. However, it has been thoroughly corrupted. That is my simple opinion. Much of the fields of medicine have been devastated by the permissive society demanding of these professions accommodations for contraception, sterilization, abortion on demand, sex change operations, “therapies” that protect, provide for and promote all of these ills, etc. All of this has lead to a corruption of the medical profession. This includes very heavily the profession of therapist, and counseling structures.
I’m a romantic in that I know historically this was one of the works of mercy that was done by our religious in their convents and monasteries. More than one villager went to the Monastery to have a talk or two with a Brother. Regular spiritual direction would continue for years. Often people associated themselves with the religious to avail themselves of the sound advise and support rendered by them through these same religious. The idea of regular talk therapy came from some where. It didn’t simply get suddenly discovered by Dr. Freud.
Most Christian pastors of all denominations know at some times they will be called upon to counsel those who come to them. The wise ones prepare with course work and if they’ve not got the degrees and experience necessary, they refer to those who do. Anything less is fraud and causing much injury. We hear about it all the time.
So, there really is lots that can be tossed into the discussion of this subject. But I’ve got heavy time constraints these days.
God bless. Ginnyfree
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If you can’t see gnosticism in what DMW is peddling, I can. I say it how I see it, if you don’t like it, go find a therapist who cares.
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Wow! How rude Geoffrey. Are you in a bad mood or something? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Do read what he is into. It has been condemned by your Church, and yes, when I see wishy washing, lovey dovey stuff coming from even you (you are normally sensible) it does make me despair. I can spot gnosticism, why can’t you?
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Good sister ginny, don’t let these guys get under your skin.
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Incidentally, if you see anything ‘Christian’ or ‘Catholic’ in what DMW practices, do tell us after today’s exciting instalment.
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And if you don’t believe that Catholic source, try this:
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/994/a_dangerous_practice.aspx
Fir shame ginny, call yourself a Catholic and support such New Age nonsense! Get thee to confession right now. I am calling this out, you are going along with it – one of us is standing for Christianity, the other is just appeasing the New Ager in our midst.
If I sound cross, it is because I had expected better from you.
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It doesn’t matter if what good brother David M practices is Christian. Hes picking up the pieces of broken men and trying to put them together again, after they see what war is like. The oil soaked American govt is to blame for all this horror.
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What a shame you don’t believe in the healing power of Jesus. Mind you, you live in California, so we could hardly expect anything else – any New Age pagan crap you will swallow.
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You know me better than that good brother. I don’t fall for new age crap. Everything is new age crap. You are new age crap. I see the world for what it is….its all crap. The instant I was changed, I saw the whole world as crap.
So, what next? Heal the sick, and while youre at it tell the Jesus lives and is standing at the door waiting for you to let him in.
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Even you cannot be this ignorant. What is new age about my saying Jesus heals?
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Jesus heals. That’s good. I looked into your links. Nothing new there for me. So, good brother David is not bornagain. So what? he uses things the world approves of. We all do befor we are born again.
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So why were you supporting him? You are quick enough with ignorant comments about the RCC, but when occult stuff is really involved you make excuses. I am deeply suspicious of you.
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Im suspicious of me too. I defended him at first because I didn’t know anything about emminemmism or what ever. I defend him now because he is part of the solution, not part of the problem. I did my time at the VA just like he did, or does. I saw where your tax dollars are going. They are going into tearing human beings apart limb by limb, and mental damage is lots of it. I ran the lab at the Mental ward for awhile. Human vegetables all over the place, and violent guys all around too, and guys faking mental illness because theey cant make it on the outside.
What do you know about the real world? The world of suffering. You sat around in your suit and tie, telling Jack Rabbit stories to little kids. Ive comforted people who had half of their head removed. Ive worked on guys in beds with plastic liners that are filled with their watery feces because they are simply alive and nothing else.
Be very suspicious of me. Be my guest.
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You really know nothing. Sad, but you remain ignirant because you want to. As fir what I do for those in need, I follow Jesus’ advice not to boast about it. But then unlike you, I have taken Jesus seriously for 6 decades.
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BTW, see this article from a Catholic website – see what it is DMW actually does, and then reconsider your support for him:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/ENNEAGRA.HTM
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Geoffrey, “Thou shalt not bear false witness,” is a Commandment of God not a suggestion. Who here has even mentioned enneagrams and the telling of these kinds of horoscopes as therapy?
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He has before, and if you look at today’s post you will see I was right. Do try to keep up. False witness, I might accuse you of being a false witless – if you couldn’t see it, I could. The devil is always prowling about – he will catch you easily enough if that is how on the alert you are.
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I apologize! 1,000 times! I didn’t know that his therapy included enneagrams. If I’d have known that, I’d have said so. Now I know better. Enneagrams aren’t legitimate therapy. I’ve said sorry to Geoffrey and so I’ll officially say: SORRY TO EVERYONE ELSE!!!! SORRY! I was wrong. It does happen occasionally, not often, but it does happen. Please forgive me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. Please read what I wrote on the newer part 2 post.
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Ginny, if it is of any help, like you I did not know what this therapy was, and as Geoffrey knows, thought he was being a trifle harsh! Like you, I am happy to apologise for harbouring such thoughts. I gather that Geoffrey has some experience with people who do this therapy – hence the strength of his reaction. Like you, I plead what was invincible ignorance – now, like you, I am enlightened. I join you on the penitent’s stool.
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Oh geeze. Theres no reason to feel bad about not knowing about something that doesn’t matter.
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You claim to follow Jesus and you say sorcery doesn’t matter – get theee behind me Satan!
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Haaahahahahaha. Sorcery is nothing but luft. tell me…..do you wear garlic around your neck? Are you scared of ghosts? Theres nothing to all this stuff. You guys are wasting your time.The Almighty is all there is….there is nothing else.
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The Bible takes it seriously. You claim totake the Bible seriously. Go figure.
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Thanks for this Ginny. I agree. But I don’t think the whole therapy business has been completely ‘corrupted’. I have read some books by Christian therapists – Gregory Popcak and Aaron Kheriaty, to name two American psychotherapists – who struck me as sensible, Christian and offering wise help to those in trouble. I am surprised at Geoffrey being so dismissive of all therapy. I have known Christians who have gone to therapy when in psychological distress and they have been helped by it. It does not make them ‘bad Christians’. David Monier-Williams’ list includes real problems and painful situations; the diseases of the mind are as real as the diseases of the body. There are many excellent Christian doctors of the body; why not of the mind too? Of course there are quacks. But Freud did draw attention to something important: the unconscious drives and behaviour that can dominate peoples’ lives in a negative way. Of course, as Christians we know that ‘sex’ is not the only motivator of our behaviour; we are body and mind as well as spirit.
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Wait for it!
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It is coming 🙂
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Do go ahead laughing boy. My first comment provides a list of condemnations by your own church of your gnostic nonsense. Not one of the comments on the new post is supportive – except Bosco. If you are down where only he is on your side, you might just be able to wake up and smell the incense.
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Im on his side because hes trying to help. Im on good brother Servus side when he attempts to bring god into peoples lives. Im on your side when you go out on the street and tell people that Jesus has risen and is alive.
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As you never read his nonsense, how can you know it helps anyone? Since when did meddling with the occult get Christian approval?
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This is of interest on NLP – and though I would not usually cite wiki, I am told by a friend who researches the area that the links are sound.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
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This is also interesting.
http://ascotttraining.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/are-trainers-particularly-gullible.html
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This seems very apposite
I think there is something else going on, too. There is something very appealing about being one of the initiated: I think NLP really trades on this – indeed someone recently described it to me as a giant pyramid selling scam, and I think there is some accuracy in that description. I particularly dislike the labelling Master Practitioner etc. and the amazing amount of money demanded by many of the big NLP organisations to train and qualify people in such an unverified (to be kind) approach. I do not think it a coincidence that every version of the eye access cue chart that Google threw up was copyright.
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That is worrying.
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St. Bisto, be careful otherwise you’ll incur the wrath of The-all-knowing-all-seeing-all-feeling-the-one-and-only-Christian -of-the North. LOL!
No truer words have ever been spoken. They are ready to ban me because I defend your position.
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Jock is right – you are both non-Christians – natural you occultists should stick together
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