Tags
Rabbi Sacks’ core argument is that violence exists because we are social animals. We find our identity in the groups with whom we live, and these groups fight over resources; religion plays a part here only ‘because it is the most powerful source of group identity the world has yet known’ (p. 101). The ‘fraught relationship’ between Judaism, Christanity and Islam (p. 87) has much to do with sibling rivalry – which we see portrayed from the beginning in Genesis with the story of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael and Isaac. We can, he suggests, and often have, read these stories as a simple case of the younger inheriting and the elder being disinherited, but, surveying this, and the stories of Esau and Jacob and Joseph and his brothers, Rabbi Sacks suggests a not only the need for a more careful reading, but he also gives it to us.
In terms of the story of Hagar and Ishmael, Sacks reminds us of how badly sarah comes out of it all. She, it was, who suggested that Abraham slept with Hagar, and she it is who insists the slave-woman and her son are cast out to die. Abraham is unhappy, but as God tells him to do as Sarah says he does so, with a heavy heart. Sacks invites us to a closer reading, pointing out that God sends an angel to save Hagar and Ishmael. The angel also promises her that Ishmael’s descendants will form a great nation. The name ‘Ishmael’ means ‘God has heard’, and if we read with attention we see God did not reject Ishmael, indeed he allows him to be the ancestor of many nations; but the covenant is made with Isaac. However, we are made to sympathise with Hagar, and by being invited to enter into her thought-world, were are encouraged to identify with the other rather than to demonise them. He reminds us of Genesis 25:8-9 where Isaac and Ishmael come together to bury their father. He reminds us that Beer Lahai Roi (Genesis 25:11) where Isaac was living, was the place where God had spoken to Hagar, who had named it ‘the well of the living one who sees me’, and suggests that Isaac had been on a mission to reconcile his father, Hagar and his half-brother. So, once Sarah had died, there was a reconciliation, which is how the two brothers came to be there at the end of the Patriarch’s life. So, here, he suggests there is a counter-narrative to the usual interpretation, one where God chooses one son for one thing, for which he is suited, and the other likewise.
Rabbi Sacks goes on to suggest that with the Isaac/Esau story, and that of Joseph and his brothers, a similar counter-narrative can be seen, in which Jacob and Joseph, like Esau and the brothers, come to a wisdom through trials which allows them to grow spiritually by coming to understand what it was like to stand in the place of the others. There is, in every case, he argues, a reconciliation – after repentance. That is the key – the change of character that comes through true repentance. Yes, God could have created a race of obedient robots to love him, but he preferred the free worship of free human beings. We can change through repentance, and if we can, then there is no reason why the future has to be an action replay of the past. Sibling rivalry ‘is not written indelibly into the human script’, and Genesis, as well as telling the story of man’s faith in God, tells the story of God’s faith in mankind.
There is here, he argues, evidence that a relgious vision has the power to reframe history and to liberate ourselves from ‘the otherwise violent dynamic of revenge and retaliation’ (p. 157). Part III suggests what we can do with this insight.
[Some thoughts on legislating on Religious Extremism’ can be found here:
Dave Smith said:
Interesting second part and a great article in the Catholic Herald friend. I am immediately struck at the difficulties that we are grapplings with. It is easy to see 2 people reconciling and coming to a peaceable settling of disputes. Likewise it is only a bit harder to take small family tribes and have the leader of each do the same. But when these subsets of individuals lie in larger and ever larger groups (religions, races, nations, political ideologies etc.) working and living under a common government the task seems to offer no possible way that reconciliation and peace can possibly reign without limiting the various numbers of these identifiable marks of the individuals involved. Individuals must give in to their families, their religions, the reigning political powers and then confront similar entities from another nation etc. Seems that the difficultry becomes exponential as the groupings that we self-identify with increase and the number of nation states increase whom we wish to live with peaceably. I am hoping that Sacks might offer some ideas of how this accomplished in the third part.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Thank you my friend.
Tomorrow I deal with the attempt at resolution – which, although he uses different language, amounts to the need to turn to Christ (he would say God) and recognise the common image of God in all of us – so, repentance and change of heart – Amen!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dave Smith said:
Indeed that seems the only common denominator left between individuals . . . to recognize the brotherhood of a larger but still intimate ‘family’ of God. A tall order in a world where the leaders may profess belief . . . though it is plainly doubtful.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Yes, to me, although I agree with him, this is the criticism (if it is that) I would make.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dave Smith said:
Aye, it is cold a world when the God most bow to is themselves.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dave Smith said:
I also should also offer the other, perhaps greater, impediment: free will. With free will, billions of individuals will likely never recognize or come together on any single over-arching principle to which they would abandon their own personal desires. Free will is the greatest good we possess but used irresponsibly it is the greatest evil.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
It is the great mystery. We are made in God’s image, we have the power to know he loves us and the power to follow him, but we fell, and we do not what we will, but what we do not will. Romans 7 gets me every time.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dave Smith said:
All of us . . . my friend.
LikeLiked by 1 person
NEO said:
Hard? Of course, it is. What worth doing isn’t? Still one must do one’s best and we should never give up, And in truth it strikes me that this
” Genesis, as well as telling the story of man’s faith in God, tells the story of God’s faith in mankind.”
That’s something we rarely think about, perhaps it’s uncomfortable for us to know that God Himself has faith in us to do our best, and to do the right things.
And that Cameron quote from the Catholic Herald article
“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens ‘as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone’.”
When I read that a few days ago, it literally chilled my blood. That any British (or American, and yes we have them as well) would dare to say such a thing aloud because the very foundation of our societies, is that very fact, if you obey the law- we perforce will leave you alone.
Now granted the jobsworth’s are going to react as is noted. Their whole being is created on a quiet realm, no matter how achieved. Rotherham will stand as witness for that. But for a political leader, it leaves on view a very un Anglo-American place, much more like one based in say, Moscow a few years back.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Yes, as the comments on the article show, others are equally chilled by that utterance – I guess we have to give him credit for not hiding his authoritarianism, but it makes it impossible to vote for his party; the problem is the others are as bad!
LikeLiked by 1 person
NEO said:
I noticed that as well, and am very pleased that your people noticed as well.
I know the problem, we have it as well, although our structure gives us a few more options. Yours, I haven’t much clue since Labour seems determined to commit suicide. I think you, like us, need a new party, might give us a half-century or so. And your points on nonreligious ruling the religious well, I would think it self-evident that it can only work with tolerant folks like the Romans, or maybe us, except we aren’t anymore.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Labour is having a colleactive nervous breakdown in public, which is very dangerous as this naturally arrogant government will think it is free to do what it likes, despite a small parliamentary majority; it is self-indulgent of Labour, and that alone, may be enough to finish it in the eyes of the voters. It is interesting that some of our secularist societies see the danger and are on our side on this.
LikeLiked by 1 person
NEO said:
Not really surprising but welcome to them. We’re seeing the same thing, the actual liberals have had just about enough of the arrogance of the current so-called (because they’re actually reactionaries) liberals.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Yes, I wonder if we are at the beginning of some real change in our politics? Hope so!
LikeLiked by 1 person
NEO said:
Indeed so, it’s time and past time.
LikeLiked by 1 person
cathy said:
I think there is a simple answer to why no outcry at such an outrageous comment. If we all created an outcry every time Mr C or his fellows made outrageous comments we would never get a moment to ourselves.
They have worn us all out by their unremitting incompetence until it no longer has the power to shock any more. This is no doubt exactly the intention; they may now do as they please to anyone, anytime. Nobody will be the least bit surprised or bothered by it.
For a Conservative government, they certainly do a good impression of Radicals.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Yes, there is nothing conservative about them except the name – which they disgrace.
LikeLiked by 1 person
cathy said:
Absolutely right. I have no problem with what one might call honourable conservatism, but there seems to be precious little space for honour anywhere these days.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
I fear that is the case. On one side we have a bunch of spivs, on the other a collective nervous breakdown!
LikeLike
cathy said:
Spivs is right. As for the others; I am leaving them to it and hoping that when the dust settles they will remember that the role of an Opposition Party is to be an effective Opposition Party. I don’t much care beyond that, tbh; I don’t go in for personality cults.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
My fear is that when the dust clears there will be no opposition left!
LikeLike
cathy said:
How will we tell the difference?
There has been no effective opposition for the past 5 years, and no objective media scrutiny either; just hysteria and a cult of blame.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
I was hoping that a small majority might induce some caution, but with no real opposition, George & Dave will ride roughshod.
LikeLike
cathy said:
Bullies can do nothing but bully. I hope for nothing from them but more of the same.
There will never be any compassion, caution or even awareness from them. They can only do what they do; bully anyone smaller and weaker than themselves in order to make themselves feel bigger. They don’t care who they hurt, or how much. They only care about money.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Both lots, alas – which is why Corbyn is popular in some quarters – he’s not one of them.
LikeLike
cathy said:
I have not really taken any interest in the personalities, but my own MP supports Mr Corbyn; he (ie my MP) is towards the left and has therefore effectively been out in the cold for the past 20 years as Labour lurched further and further to the right. I think it is indeed time to change that, but it is not for me to say how; I did not spend £3 to join the circus.
But I am not nearly as afraid of left wing politics as I am of the present government, which I am certain would be perfectly happy to let me starve to death without a second thought, if I were only vulnerable enough. I would not be the first.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
I think if Mr C were ever elected we’d end up like Greece – sometime good intentions produce very bad results.
LikeLike
cathy said:
We are already like Greece. The difference is only that Ms Merkel is treating the citizens of Greece as Mr Cameron is treating his own.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
I can see why you think that – but think the difference is a big one.
LikeLike
cathy said:
The difference is only of degree because Mr Cameron lacks both Ms Merkal’s power and her competence. The ruthlessness is shared.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
It is, but our economy is in better shape so he doesn’t need to be ruthless with so many people.
LikeLike
cathy said:
He doesn’t need to be ruthless at all. I think he enjoys it.
I honestly don’t think there is any understanding that a large number of people is comprised of actual people. Anything above perhaps 10 or 20 and they blur into an amorphous mass. Above 1,000 and we become sub human.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
Alas, yes, it is so.
LikeLiked by 1 person
ginnyfree said:
Sorry, Chalcedon. I didn’t read the book so I can’t help you out. My two cents isn’t worth a penny on this one. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Rob said:
New York Times – August 13, 2015 – 9:20 AM Edition
How the Islamic State Planned and Created a Vast System of Sexual Slavery
The following link deals with the Islamic State’s merciless treatment of the Yazidi religious community. Treated as polytheistic infidels rather than ‘People of a Book’, Jews or Christians
The men and post puberty boys are slaughtered, the women and young female children bought and sold as slaves in a systematically organised manner and abused almost beyond description.
It is necessary that the word becomes aware of this Islamic State atrocity and their justification from the Quran. The Quran is traditionally claimed to be a timeless eternal revelation, so it is difficult for moderates to represent the texts as applicable only in a sixth century context.
DO NOT FOLLOW THIS LINK IF YOU CANNOT BEAR TO KNOW ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE OF HORROR
We all need to pray and lobby for this community.
LikeLike
Gareth Thomas said:
I ordered Rabbi Sacks’ book from Amazon and did so before reading your review, although it was your earlier mention of it on Twitter that caught my attention. I was musing this morning that, as a Catholic, I have never bought a book written by a pope. However this will be the second time I have bought a book written by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks! Food for thought. I am enjoying reading the review articles and I look forward to reading this book when it arrives next week.
In case you wonder what was the other book, I bought his collection of essays, “The Persistence of Faith – Religion, Morality and Society in a Secular Age” ten years ago.
LikeLiked by 1 person
chalcedon451 said:
Ah, yes, that is another excellent book. He has a breadth of vision and a spiritual depth rare in our society. Last part of the review up later. I’d be interested in your views once you’ve had time to read the book.
LikeLike
Rob said:
Hi Gareth –
It might also be a third book for me written by a Rabbi. Another book I found interesting by a Reformed Rabbi that lectured at the University of Wales followed the history of Jewish converts to Christianity (who he refers to as Messianic Jews) from the time of the apostles to our own. I found two parts particularly interesting as apologetic which I discussed with Jewish friends:
– His information on the continuation of the leadership of the church at Jerusalem by relatives of Jesus following the death of James.
– His concluding argument that Messianic Jews were rejected as part of the community whereas all other types were not, including those who were completely secular. Which he stated should not be the case as Jews that received Christ as Messiah had more faith in the God of their fathers than many others.
My Jewish friend said the community thought of him as controversial and could not convert as it would mean rejection by his family.
The other book I enjoyed was by David Kosoff (although I am not certain he was a Rabbi) on the parables of Jesus which I bought following seeing him on TV on the subject.
I am unable to provide the authors etc. as I gave the book away to someone interested in the subject.
But then on second thoughts, we all also have quite a number of much older books written by Rabbis, initially missing this point might say something about us forgetting our Jewish roots. 🙂
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Gareth, I propose you have a few more books written by many Jews then you know and a Rabbi who was the greatest Rabbi of them all – Jesus Christ! He was called Rabbi by those who followed Him, and He was! He is the source of the inspiration for the whole of Scriptures, so He wrote the book, the whole book, the Bible! As for the many books you have, the human hands God used to write the Bible were all Jews, both OT and NT. All of the Apostles were of the chosen race and became as we are, the royal priesthood of Christ with Christ Himself as the capstone! We tend to forget our Jewish roots because we seem so utterly different than those Jews of our day. I think this is why there is that nicely surprising spiritual common sense that flows so freely in the mysticism of modern Jewish scholarship. It is there because the root, who is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob is one and the same as our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So, it is true. We have the Jews to thank for our Bibles and for staying faithful enough to provide the way in which our God could come into the world to save both Jew and Gentile alike. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
You all can kiss all the Hebrew books you want, but there is no salvation outside the bosom of the one true catholic church. Thank you mediatrix Mary.
LikeLike
Rob said:
Bosco I do not kiss my Bible it could be considered idolatry!!!
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
You are a bigot and a hater. Our Beloved Pope kisses the Koran. It must be a good thing, because he does it.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Bosco, I’ve kissed my Bible more than once. What does that make me? God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Rob says it makes you an idolater. The book is nothing but paper. The Lord is in his Holy temple.
LikeLike
Rob said:
Bosco the point was is that Bible is composed of Hebrew books while you ridiculed ‘
Hebrew books above.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Bosco the Great said:
Interesting. I wasn’t aware that I ridiculed Hebrew books. Jews don’t believe in god now a days. So any of their books are worthless, now that you ask.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
Ah, so, you now manage to libel a whole new group. I think you will find that most observant Jews believe in God. Since the entire OT is Jewish, and the entire NT written by Jews, I am assuming they are also worthless in your eyes?
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Chalcedon…..the new jewish philosophy is….that there is no god. I almost married a Hebrew girl. The jews used to believe in god, but not any more. Why don’t you ask one or two.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
I know many, and they all do. You seem to hang around people who claim to be something and aren’t: Catholics who know nothing about Catholicsm, Jews who know nothing about Judaism; Christians who know nothing about Christ. I’d find some fresh company if I were you.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Maybe its California jews.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Rob, at every Mass there are at least two kissed delivered by the priest, one planted on the Altar and one on the Book of the Gospels. If you saw this firsthand, would you be offended and think them idolaters? Just curious. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Rob said:
Read what I wrote rather than Bosco’s reply.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
We catholics have our priests kiss the bible to show how much we love it.Thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus inveniat
We cathols invoke the blessed name of Lucifer. We love Lucifer.
Thank you Mary and Lucifer.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
It must be very hard being so ignorant. I suppose the only consolation is that most of those with whom you usually associate don’t know that ‘Lucifer’ is Latin for ‘Light’ – so yes, in the Bible the word Lucifer is used for the ‘Light of the World’ – poor Bosco, such a big world, such a little brain, and so little education.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Im thanking Lucifer. Why are you down on me? Im catholic now. Oh thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
Because you are saying Catholics worship Lucifer. Every time I think you can get no sillier and we have plumbed the depth of your ignorance, you go further. Still, as long as you think you are funny.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Why wouldn’t you worship the Light of the Catholic church?
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
You know what you are doing. carry on showing everyone what a fool you are if you like.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Arent these the words spoken in the Vatican? Yes or no. If they are, I expect an apology. If they aren’t, I will go away and never come back. That is a promise.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
They are, but not in worship of who mean by Licifer.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Glory be. Im vindicated. They are the words spoken in the Vatican. Now, id like that apology from you for calling me bad names. Thanks in advance.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
A stumbling block for those whose intent may not be 100%. Yeah, there are a few, but stumbling blocks can be turned into stepping stones Bosco. We have many, some found right in the sacred texts of the Bible. Jesus instructed us leave them as it would help sort chaff from wheat for those who need to make such distinctions.
If you mean to invoke a demon by use of the name lucifer, that will not go well for you. When this chant is sung out, I think if I’m correct, it is used in the Easter Liturgies, I can’t remember correctly, (someone please correct me if you know its exact location in our liturgical cycles) it does have a meaning that is as Chalcedon stated, referring to the refulgence of light as in the Morning Star, rising in our hearts, who is Jesus Christ. But if you want an excuse to throw stones and truly believe that the demon is meant and you so lightly invoke its name here and elsewhere, then I’m afraid to say it, YOU are the one, the ONLY one, bowing to the demon here. I would strongly advise you against such nonsense Bosco, ’cause you’re already in too deep as it is. I would venture to guess if you’ve done so before, this may actually be a source of your vexations and blasphemous nature. Can’t call up the infernal without there being a price to pay. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Come on, sing along with Pope Bergoglio,..
ah one e an a two e an a
Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus inveniat
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
And who, Bosco, is the light of the world? Perhas you are now committing the unpardonable sin. If so, you brought it on yourself.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
As a damnable protestant heretic I would have said Jesus is the light of men, but now that im catholic I say that Lucifer is the light of the world.
thank you saint Torquemada.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
This is what I meant in my last comment. Because ill-educated people do not know Latin, they might mistake the Latin Lucifer, for the devil. To say ‘Lucifer is the light’ is like saying “peter is the peter”. It is hard being so ignorant, but you must try to learn, Bosco.
LikeLike
NEO said:
Indeed so, and much later and closer to home, in Victorian America a Lucifer was slang for a wooden strike-anywhere match, often used to light the parlor lamp.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Neo, during Easter service in the Vatican, we cathols invoke the name of Lucifer.
Thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
All hail the name of Lucifer. Thank you Mary
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
So, Bosco, you’re admitting you know the source and place in the liturgy where this is found. Do tell. BTW, how many times have you pointed this one out to folks and how many have told you the same things as you’re getting here? Be honest. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
This is only the second time ive mentioned it. Now that im catholic, ive got to get with the program. We catholics invoke the name of Lucifer.
Thank you Lucifer
if any cathols get upset, its not really because of me. its because they don’t love their religion.
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
We invoke it as part of Latin Masses, Bosco, not in English. You need to learn these things. You see, follish and ignorant people hearing the word Lucifer might mistake it for the devil. Only a very ill-educated child would do that, of course, but as you are just a baby Catholic, you might fall into the trap.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
The devil? How did he come into this conversation? it must be your quilty conscience
LikeLike
chalcedon451 said:
No, it is your deliberate conflating of the latin for light with luficer the demon. If you had a conscience, you’d be guilty. And you expect us to believe you know Jesus? Good witness here Bosco – to the real spirit you worship.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
yes, only someone ignorant and stupid would think of Satan when they hear the word Lucifer. thank Lucifer im smart and didn’t fall into that trap.
Thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
I repeat Bosco, YOU are the only person associating that word with the devil. You are the ONLY ONE invoking it as such and you’ve gone so far as to thank it and even praise it! That is dangerous and you need to be told to stop because as shaky as you spiritual life is without being in a state of grace and without any sacramental helps such as holy water, a scapular and recourse to the Sacraments, and all the other weapons we use in spiritual combat, you have virtually no defense against the onslaught of the infernal enemy and will have no one to blame for the negative outcome but yourself. You’ve been warned. You aren’t stupid. You should stop. You may mean to provoke anger, or simply get a few laughs, but there is a very real price you could play for playing with that kind of fire and you have no defenses. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Rob said:
A First World War soldier’s song you may have heard has the following line:
“As long as I’ve a lucifer to light my fag”
LikeLiked by 2 people
NEO said:
Indeed so, and in truth out here we still carry them, as a backup, they always work.
LikeLiked by 1 person
ginnyfree said:
Wow, NEO. Learn something new everyday! Thanks for sharing. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Bosco the Great said:
Thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
This is pure foolishness Bosco because we all know exactly who YOU mean when you say this name. It has a price attached to it. I suggest you stop invoking a demon. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vaticanstate/en.html
Here is the address of the Vatican State. Email them and chew them out about them using Lucifer for Jesus name. Im just a pawn in the game of life.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Yeah, but he tries to make his brain appear bigger by donning that huge flaming orange wig! It has no one fooled. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Prove me wrong and ill go away. If you cant, it shows you don’t value your words. You will say anything because you have zero integrity. All you have is air. Now prove me wrong.
Thank you Lucifer and Mary
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Seems like no one has proved me wrong. All I get is being called names, from my own cathol bretheren. Oh the pain
Lucifer, oh come and help me and my sorrows.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Ille, inquam , Lucifer, qui nescit occasum
We catholics thank you Lucifer. All hail Lucifer.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Would you look at this. I praise Lucifer, the Light of the Catholic church, and im condemned by Good brother Chalcedon. He says Lucifer is the Light, then condemns me for some reason or another.
Oh hail Lucifer, Light of the catholic church.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Cough up your sources Bosco. I think the actual chant is Refulgence of Light or something like that. Help me out a little can you? God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Ill be glad to help you out. This chant is done on easter in the Vatican.
All hail the name of Lucifer.
Drop your dime in the basket. thank you Mary, giver of all salvation, and Lucifer, Light of the catholic true and pure and white universal holy church
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Thanks for the help you weenie clown full of hot air! Come on. Cough up the source.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
The source is our catholic church, universal and pure and white.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
And if you really want to know Bosco, we DO actually have a Bishop whose name was Lucifer of Cagliari and there are some who think him a Saint!
Read on:
Lucifer Calaritanus (Italian: Lucifero da Cagliari) (d. May 20, 370 or 371) was a bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia known for his passionate opposition to Arianism. He is venerated as a Saint in Sardinia, though his status remains controversial.
Lucifer first appears in history as an envoy from Pope Liberius to the Emperor Constantius II, requesting the convening of a church council.[1] At the Council of Milan (c. 354 or 355), he defended St. Athanasius against Arian attempts to secure his condemnation by Western bishops. It was reported that Constantius II, a supporter of Arian theology, confined Lucifer for three days in the Imperial Palace, where Lucifer continued to argue venomously on behalf of Athanasius.[2] Along with Eusebius of Vercelli, Lucifer was exiled for his vehement opposition to the Emperor.[3] He was banished first to Commagene in Syria, thereafter to Palestine and finally to the Thebais in Egypt. While in exile, he wrote fiery pamphlets to the Emperor in which he proclaimed himself to be ready to suffer martyrdom for his beliefs.
He, together with Eusebius of Vercelli as the two Papal Legates at the Councils of Arles and Milan 353 and 355, and together with Dionysius (bishop of Milan), were exiled for refusing to accept the Arian formulary presented to the bishops by the Arian Emperor Constantius II.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari
Have some fun Bosco. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
At the local drug store here, the name of the store manager is Jesus. I don’t make a big deal out of a name of a human.
Thank you Mary and Lucifer
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Not withstanding some really weeniefied clowns being absolutely no help at all, I did find this at the Land of the Wikkies. It is the complete text of the Exsultet, which is part of the Liturgy when the Paschal candle is blessed and lit. Here ya go Bosco. And please note the PROPER translation of the word lucifer on the English side of the page.
Exult, let them exult, the hosts of heaven,
exult, let Angel ministers of God exult,
let the trumpet of salvation
sound aloud our mighty King’s triumph!
Be glad, let earth be glad, as glory floods her,
ablaze with light from her eternal King,
let all corners of the earth be glad,
knowing an end to gloom and darkness.
Rejoice, let Mother Church also rejoice,
arrayed with the lightning of his glory,
let this holy building shake with joy,
filled with the mighty voices of the peoples.
(Therefore, dearest friends,
standing in the awesome glory of this holy light,
invoke with me, I ask you,
the mercy of God almighty,
that he, who has been pleased to number me,
though unworthy, among the Levites,
may pour into me his light unshadowed,
that I may sing this candle’s perfect praises).
(Deacon: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.)
Deacon: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Deacon: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People: It is right and just.
It is truly right and just,
with ardent love of mind and heart
and with devoted service of our voice,
to acclaim our God invisible, the almighty Father,
and Jesus Christ, our Lord, his Son, his Only Begotten.
Who for our sake paid Adam’s debt to the eternal Father,
and, pouring out his own dear Blood,
wiped clean the record of our ancient sinfulness.
These, then, are the feasts of Passover,
in which is slain the Lamb, the one true Lamb,
whose Blood anoints the doorposts of believers.
This is the night,
when once you led our forebears, Israel’s children,
from slavery in Egypt
and made them pass dry-shod through the Red Sea.
This is the night
that with a pillar of fire
banished the darkness of sin.
This is the night
that even now throughout the world,
sets Christian believers apart from worldly vices
and from the gloom of sin,
leading them to grace
and joining them to his holy ones.
This is the night
when Christ broke the prison-bars of death
and rose victorious from the underworld.
Our birth would have been no gain,
had we not been redeemed.
O wonder of your humble care for us!
O love, O charity beyond all telling,
to ransom a slave you gave away your Son!
O truly necessary sin of Adam,
destroyed completely by the Death of Christ!
O happy fault
that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer!
O truly blessed night,
worthy alone to know the time and hour
when Christ rose from the underworld!
This is the night
of which it is written:
The night shall be as bright as day,
dazzling is the night for me, and full of gladness.
The sanctifying power of this night
dispels wickedness, washes faults away,
restores innocence to the fallen, and joy to mourners,
drives out hatred, fosters concord, and brings down the mighty.
On this, your night of grace, O holy Father,
accept this candle, a solemn offering,
the work of bees and of your servants’ hands,
an evening sacrifice of praise,
this gift from your most holy Church.
But now we know the praises of this pillar,
which glowing fire ignites for God’s honour,
a fire into many flames divided,
yet never dimmed by sharing of its light,
for it is fed by melting wax,
drawn out by mother bees
to build a torch so precious.
O truly blessed night,
when things of heaven are wed to those of earth,
and divine to the human.
Therefore, O Lord,
we pray you that this candle,
hallowed to the honour of your name,
may persevere undimmed,
to overcome the darkness of this night.
Receive it as a pleasing fragrance,
and let it mingle with the lights of heaven.
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death’s domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.
Exsúltet iam angélica turba cælórum:
exsúltent divína mystéria:
et pro tanti Regis victória tuba ínsonet salutáris.
Gáudeat et tellus, tantis irradiáta fulgóribus:
et ætérni Regis splendóre illustráta,
tótius orbis se séntiat amisísse calíginem.
Lætétur et mater Ecclésia,
tanti lúminis adornáta fulgóribus:
et magnis populórum vócibus hæc aula resúltet.
[Quaprópter astántes vos, fratres caríssimi,
ad tam miram huius sancti lúminis claritátem,
una mecum, quæso,
Dei omnipoténtis misericórdiam invocáte.
Ut, qui me non meis méritis
intra Levitárum númerum dignátus est aggregáre,
lúminis sui claritátem infúndens,
cérei huius laudem implére perfíciat.]
[V/ Dóminus vobíscum.
R/ Et cum spíritu tuo.]
V/ Sursum corda.
R/ Habémus ad Dóminum.
V/ Grátias agámus Dómino Deo nostro.
R/ Dignum et iustum est.
Vere dignum et iustum est,
invisíbilem Deum Patrem omnipoténtem
Filiúmque eius unigénitum,
Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum,
toto cordis ac mentis afféctu et vocis ministério personáre.
Qui pro nobis ætérno Patri Adæ débitum solvit,
et véteris piáculi cautiónem pio cruóre detérsit.
Hæc sunt enim festa paschália,
in quibus verus ille Agnus occíditur,
cuius sánguine postes fidélium consecrántur.
Hæc nox est,
in qua primum patres nostros, fílios Israel
edúctos de Ægypto,
Mare Rubrum sicco vestígio transíre fecísti.
Hæc ígitur nox est,
quæ peccatórum ténebras colúmnæ illuminatióne purgávit.
Hæc nox est,
quæ hódie per univérsum mundum in Christo credéntes,
a vítiis sæculi et calígine peccatórum segregátos,
reddit grátiæ, sóciat sanctitáti.
Hæc nox est,
in qua, destrúctis vínculis mortis,
Christus ab ínferis victor ascéndit.
Nihil enim nobis nasci prófuit,
nisi rédimi profuísset.
O mira circa nos tuæ pietátis dignátio!
O inæstimábilis diléctio caritátis:
ut servum redímeres, Fílium tradidísti!
O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum,
quod Christi morte delétum est!
O felix culpa,
quæ talem ac tantum méruit habére Redemptórem!
O vere beáta nox,
quæ sola méruit scire tempus et horam,
in qua Christus ab ínferis resurréxit!
Hæc nox est, de qua scriptum est:
Et nox sicut dies illuminábitur:
et nox illuminátio mea in delíciis meis.
Huius ígitur sanctificátio noctis fugat scélera, culpas lavat:
et reddit innocéntiam lapsis et mæstis lætítiam.
Fugat ódia, concórdiam parat et curvat impéria.
In huius ígitur noctis grátia, súscipe, sancte Pater,
laudis huius sacrifícium vespertínum,
quod tibi in hac cérei oblatióne solémni,
per ministrórum manus
de opéribus apum, sacrosáncta reddit Ecclésia.
Sed iam colúmnæ huius præcónia nóvimus,
quam in honórem Dei rútilans ignis accéndit.
Qui, lícet sit divísus in partes,
mutuáti tamen lúminis detrimenta non novit.
Alitur enim liquántibus ceris,
quas in substántiam pretiósæ huius lámpadis
apis mater edúxit.
O vere beáta nox,
in qua terrénis cæléstia, humánis divína iungúntur!
Orámus ergo te, Dómine,
ut céreus iste in honórem tui nóminis consecrátus,
ad noctis huius calíginem destruéndam,
indefíciens persevéret.
Et in odórem suavitátis accéptus,
supérnis lumináribus misceátur.
Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.
R/ Amen.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Thanks for proving me to be correct. Now say youre sorry for calling me a weenie
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie weenie. Really dumb weenie too for invoking a known devil. Can’t plead ignorance on that score Bosco. Children shouldn’t play with matches and clowns shouldn’t thank devils for help or invoke their aid. You may get it! God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
hey, im just following the lead of my newfound religion.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Here’s some more help for weenies who don’t know where to look for stuff:
lūcifer, fera, ferum, adj. lux-fero, light-bringing: itaque ut apud Graecos Dianam, eamque Luciferam, sic apud nostros Junonem Lucinam in pariendo invocant, Cic. N. D. 2, 27, 68: pars Lunae, Lucr. 5, 726: equi, the horses of Luna, Ov. H. 11, 46: manus, i. e. of Lucina, id. ib. 20, 192.
— Poet., bringing safety, Prud. Psych. 625.
— Hence, Subst.: Lūcifer, feri, m. The morning-star, the planet Venus: stella Lucifer interdiu, noctu Hesperus ita circumeunt, Varr. R. R. 3, 5, 17: stella Veneris, quae Φωσφόρος Graece, Latine dicitur Lucifer, cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Hesperos, Cic. N. D. 2, 20, 53: si dormire incipis ortu Luciferi, Juv. 8, 12; 13, 158; cf. Plin. 2, 8, 6, § 36; Tib. 1, 10 (9), 62; Ov. Tr. 1, 3, 71.
— The fabled son of Aurora and Cephalus, and father of Ceyx, Hyg. Astr. 2, 42; Ov. M. 11, 271; 346; acc. to others, a son of Jupiter, Serv. Verg. A. 4, 130.
— Poet. transf., day: memento Venturum paucis me tibi Luciferis, Prop. 2, 15 (3, 12), 28: omnis, Ov. F. 1, 46: tres, id. ib. 3, 877.
http://latinlexicon.org/search_latin.php
As for the main meaning it means light bringing, thus the Morning Star, Venus, which appears just before sunrise and brings the dawn. Ever do any star gazing Bosco?
“Baptising” pagan stuff is our specialty Bosco. Why does this shock you? Its frequent mention by anti-catholics may fool the average teen ager, but it really doesn’t work as an apologetic. It comes off as simply mud slinging 101 which is really what it it. Shame on you.
Can I ask you this: Do you think every time the word demon or devil or satan is found in the Bible and read aloud, a person is actually invoking them or worshipping them? Probably not. Common sense tells you otherwise. If you went there and tried that one, then Jesus’ conversation with the devil would be tantamount to God worshipping the devil. Wanna go there silly clown? Stretch that analogy and accusation to fit all occasion found in the Scriptures. Go for it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Star gazing? I look up at the stars every now and then. Let me ask you a question…. Have you ever studied astrophysics? I have, and its tough, because of the math involved.
Come on now. When the word demon is read, are they invoking the devil. You really must think im stupid. Well, I am.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
OOOOPs. Sorry forgot a few things. Here is the correct translation of the passages in question: Therefore, O Lord,
we pray you that this candle,
hallowed to the honour of your name,
may persevere undimmed,
to overcome the darkness of this night.
Receive it as a pleasing fragrance,
and let it mingle with the lights of heaven.
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death’s domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.
Notice there is not one word regarding anything demonic. If the word meant a demon, it would have translated that way.
Here is the link so you can check it out yourself Bosco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exsultet
God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
Yeah, I checked it out. Thanks. So, I guess calling Christ Lucifer is fine by you eh? I have some mental adjustments I have to do to be able to live the catholic life. This is one of them. Calling Jesus Lucifer….im gonna have to adjust to that, some kinda way.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Hello Bosco. You cannot admit you’re wrong ever, can you? It’s like looking for hen’s teeth to come here thinking you might. I will simply repeat what I’ve said before – you are the only one who interprets that Latin word as to mean a demon and you’re the one constantly falsely accusing us of the very thing you’ve done here in this thread: praise the infernal and imply that Christ is the devil. You, Bosco. Not the Church or her members. The correct translation is Morning Star, meaning Venus which rises right before dawn at and is very visible throughout the Northern Hemisphere in the early morning sky around Easter. That particular star has had various names throughout all ages. I call it Venus. Does that make me pagan? In your eyes maybe but only in your eyes. When I talk to my little brother in law about stars and I say the name Venus, he knows exactly which star I mean and also knows speaking this way about that star doesn’t diminish my Christianity one little whit. But you’ll say the same things over and over and over about this very thing expecting a different result. Some folks I know call that insanity, doing the same thing over and over and over expecting a different result. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
I never once said Lucifer was the Devil. Only you idol worshiping cathos accused me of that. Im a good catholic and I worship the true Lucifer….Christ….. as said in the easter mass at the whore house, oops, I mean the Vatican.
LikeLike
ginnyfree said:
Ya know what Bosco? That is the last insulting thing you’re going to say to this Catholic gal. Your speech is outrageous and shouldn’t be encouraged. You’ve invoked satan here, praised the devil and blasphemed that which I love, my Church and my God, Jesus Christ. You really mean it. All we are here is a row of sitting ducks. You hurl insults and sit back and laugh. It is too much. So, I have nothing more to say to you. May the Lord have mercy on your poor soul at the end of your days. I will no longer be commenting on anything you say here. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Bosco the Great said:
The Morning Star is Lucifer, and this is what the song says, and it says the Morning star is Jesus, and it says Jesus is Lucifer.
Im so glad I joined the one true pure and white catholic church. Thank you all for your prayers and encouragement.
Thank you Lucifer.
LikeLike