
The Church is a living body rooted not only in tradition but also in society, and one of the characteristics of living things is that they grow; that does not mean that society should shape the church, but if the church is to do its work as the leaven in society, it needs to be able to interact in a constructive way with it. One obstacle to this in our own societies in the West is that when it comes to sexual practices. On the whole the Church and society have not interacted in constructive ways. Those in the Church who think that the secular world has gone to hell in a handcart on sexual matters may well have a point, but I dare anyone to say that this attitude has, a) had any effect at all on society, and b) that it has had any positive outcome for the churches. In short, it’s as perfect example as a car crash as you could wish for; no need for the enemies of Christianity to move a finger, we’re perfectly capable of wrecking our own show – thank you, and good-night Vienna! Was there, is there, a better way?
Christians are a family, and Jesus often uses examples from family life to illustrate how we ought to be conducting ourselves. It is no accident that he refers to God as father, any more than it is that he is the son. A father (or mother for that matter) will often regard the ways of their offspring, not least when they become teenagers, with some bemusement, and very few of us will not have heard a parent say “it wasn’t like that in my day.” They are right, but that does not mean that a wise parent tries to corral their daughter (or son for that matter) into the way they behaved when they were teenagers; a wise parent remembers their own parent saying just that to them when they were teenagers. That’s the point. The world now is not the same as it was then.
When my late father was a young man in Austria, the government, in 1938, insisted that all Jews wear a yellow star of David, and they had a precise definition of what a “Jew” was, and the local churches went along with this. When his father took him and his sister to the UK, he no longer had to wear a star. But as his sister, my aunt, grew older and people wondered why such a pretty girl was not married, she could not say that it was because she preferred to be with women. It was not illegal in the way that male homosexuality was, mainly, it seems because when the latter was criminalised in the reign of Queen Victoria, no one could muster up the courage to tell the Queen that lesbianism existed.
In part, the bar on male homosexuality came from Scripture via the rulings of the Church. No one could say that Scripture had much to say about the subject of same-sex physical relationships, but then no one could deny that what was said was hardly favourable. Tradition, resting on a reading of those parts of Scriptures and the old Jewish law, along with the law and the mores of society all went in a direction which meant women like my late aunt had to live secret lives if they wanted, as she did, the companionship in the fullest sense of the woman she loved. As my late father used to say in the late 1980s when this was a hot political issue, “it wasn’t like that in my day”. He was right, it wasn’t, it was horrid for women like his sister, and worse for men who could be, and were, imprisoned. Certain parts of Northern Ireland and Islam apart, is anyone now advocating a return to those times? Even if they were, and in the vast majority of countries they aren’t, it isn’t going to happen. Most countries have enshrined into their legal codes protection for people with a same-sex attraction. Like it or not, that’s the case.
The Churches have, for the most part, handled this poorly, some seeming to make concessions only when under great pressure, and belatedly, and quite obviously doing so as a sop to “the times”, and others parsing the issue with a skill that deserves the adjective “Jesuitical”, whilst still others have reiterated their teaching as though times had not changed; but few, if any, serious Christian Church has persevered with the full force of the attitudes in place in the 1950s.
What would the example of “family” suggest? My own father was not a Christian, what he saw in Austria of the cooperation of the churches with the Nazis left a permanent mark on him. He doubted, to put it mildly, whether an institution which cooperated at a local level with the Nazis had any moral authority to pronounce on anything that mattered. But his sister, my aunt, became a Christian, indeed she became an Anglican. My grandfather, her father, knew that she preferred women and lived with one, his view was simple, I am told: ‘she is the flesh of my flesh, she is my beloved daughter, how she lives is her business unless it hurts others.’ He continued to love his daughter and made no distinction between her and my father. Her church? No one asked questions, so no one got any answers, but I know that for her it prevented a closer relationship with a congregation she attended for twenty years or so; which is sad, as she had a lot to give.
Some churches take that same 1950s attitude, others, many Anglican churches among them, take the view that as “family” what matters is the person and they sound a lot like my later grandfather. They do not ignore scripture, but they take the view that the tradition which accepted Paul’s strictures is not applicable to times in which we know so much more about sexuality, and when being gay is not identified with paganism or temple practices from paganism. You can disapprove and you can get into arguments about what certain texts mean or don’t mean. Or you can, as my own local church does, take the view that we are all family and what matters is just that.
There is nothing unAnglican in that. All change is uncomfortable for many. Despite Paul being clear that a Bishop could have a wife, the Church decided otherwise, and one can be sure than many people at the time felt upset at the change – but they went with it. However, when the Church in England decided to go back to the older practice, there was no great hoo-hah when priests who had often been living with the woman they loved, made honest women out of them by finally marrying them. Will we reach the same place with people who are gay and lesbian? In some churches we already have, in others, we haven’t. But when even the Roman Pontiff acknowledges that same-sex civil unions are okay, you can be sure of only one thing – things aren’t what they used to be. Maybe you can be of one other thing – that some will celebrate it and some will hate it and complain. The future will roll out, and if the Spirit really is guiding the Church as we believe, we shall all just have to get along as a family, and sometimes, the best families can do at a particular juncture, is to get along by agreeing to disagree in love.
To some, who recieve the tradition from Paul and its reading by their church, this will seem at best “wet” and at worst, contrary to Scripture. To them I would say only that their reading of Scripture is not the only one available, and that even in the Roman Catholic Church no lesser figure than the Pope can see the need for civil unions. I understand their fear that this is no more than the thin-end of the wedge, because they are correct. A traditional reading on sexuality can survive modern scientific research, but it can’t do so for ever. Such a reading can survive a long time, but not without doing damage both to the institution holding it and to people who may be part of it. What it cannot do is survive if the Spirit is guiding us to a better understanding of these things than was available to Paul, or even to my grandfather’s time.
The Church of England holds with a comment often attributed to Augustine, but which cannot be found in his works, though it can in Pope St John XXIII’s Ad Petri Cathedram, “in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity.” That is how a real family proceeds. Those who have problems with it, well, we must also take account of their sensitivities even if they sometimes fail to reciprocate. That’s why it takes time. The day will come when our descendants will wonder why we made such a fuss about something which they take for granted – and if any of us live to see that day, our response might well be “it wasn’t like that in my day.”
Hence, pleasure signifies a kind of union with an object judged as good. In the words of St. Thomas, “pleasure arises from union with a suitable object perceived or known” (Aquinas, Summa theologiae I–II, q. 31, a. 5), but something can become unnaturally pleasurable “either in regard to reason, or in regard to the preservation of the body” as a result of corruption of a “part of the soul” (Aquinas, Summa theologiae I–II, q. 31, a. 7). One part of the soul that could become corrupted is the rational faculty, which could result in one making mis-judgments. Habitual mis-judgments result in an object or objects seemingly being perfective of one’s nature and one having a sense of connaturality for those objects. In other words, habitual mis-judgments lead one to be inclined or disposed to unnatural pleasures.
Again, it was mentioned that “bodily pleasures are realized in the sensitive faculty which is governed by reason: wherefore they need to be tempered and checked by reason” (Aquinas, Summa theologiae I–II, q. 31, a. 5, ad. 3). When a bodily pleasure is experienced, one should verify that the pleasure is not unnatural. Unnatural pleasures are contrary to reason, or in other words, they are disordered.
Above from an article at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4028725/
It seems to me that true compassion for those afflicted with this disordered state might best be realized in groups like Courage or enCourage:
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/courage-2651
Otherwise, what seems compassionate might simply be abandonment of order (both physical/natural and spiritual/supernatural). That disordered sexuality is now taught by our schools and portrayed as natural by Hollywood movies is not an indication of a growth in compassion but as a dystopian society that prefers disorder (in almost every sphere imaginable) to the ordered — so much so, that we now must (to be politically and socially correct) abandon even our language of pronouns to the vociferous voices of those who are want to appear compassionate and loving. It is not the 50’s we are trying to re-create but the constant recognition of a “Good” as being the same as it always was and not conflating it with a con-natural good which is being built upon lie after lie. The first article explains this phenomenon in Thomistic terms.
The RCC has always tried to convince and persuade its followers of Truth over desires that are disordered; not to criticize but to inform and lead a soul to a more fruitful life and as a path to the perfection of the soul . . . found only in the union of the Beatific Vision and the pursuit of the Good and the Beautiful in accordance with Reason. I know that the simple statement of love the sinner and hate the sin might suffice for some but for others must be a “trial” that must be logically understood in order to lighten the yoke which they have been given. But Courage International has helped many turn their lives around and a good spiritual director (and not a recognition of invalid unions) is a better alternative to psychological maladies which might be remedied.
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I hate to break it to you, but the world, and not least what we understand about human nature and how it works, has moved on since the time of Aquinas. I am not sure there is any area of life where the insights of medieval Europe would be cited as evidence for what we do now. I cannot imagine anyone who did not already agree with your position being persuaded by it, so whilst I appreciate you putting it at length, I am entirely unpersuaded of its relevance.
Even your own church is backing away from insulting people who God made that way by calling it ‘disordered’; again, the best of luck persuading anyone of that who does not agree with you.
As I say in the piece, it makes your church look stuck in dark ages, and of course, divides it, since as you are better aware than I am, large swathes of your own church don’t agree with you.
For my part, I prefer the more Christ-like attitude of my Church. Love the sinner and hate the Sin sufficed for Jesus, if it isn’t enough for you, I refer you to his comments about yokes, not adding to them, and his being easy.
I suspect you know you are part of a way of thinking that within a couple of generations will be regarded as quaint at best and irrelevant at worst.
People are people, and if, as psychiatry suggests, some people are born that way, surely the better question is to wonder what God was up to and how we can respond, not to resort of medieval thinking.
You know it isn’t working, not even in your own church.
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The article was written in 2014 and there is little to no evidence that there is perhaps a genetic aspect to this disorder; as there is a stronger link to alcoholism it is still not a certainty that all of these people will be alcoholics. Many of them (like my mother for one) abstained from drink precisely because her mother and her brothers were all alcoholics. It is explained at length in the article if you read it. So even if there is a gene (which is now very doubtful) it is not a fact that you have no choice about your lifestyle.
He cites modern psychiatrists throughout the article who do not agree that people are born this way. As to Aquinas: his in-depth understanding of the appetites is certainly applicable to a rational exploration of this phenomena. He utilizes St. Thomas’s clear and rational thought to examine the issue. It is well worth the read. Because a theologian is now dead does not mean that his thinking is no longer valid. If so, then the Bible itself is outdated and outmoded as are all the early fathers and the saints who have passed on to their reward. We would simply become a Church that follows modern science wherever it leads, even if it is faulty pop-science as today’s science often turns out to be; since pop-science is simply that which has become fashionable and popular usually for political reasons. And oftentimes it is a thesis to prove one’s personal preferences or preconceived conclusions. It then gains wide acceptance from people who have been fed such ideas from a politically correct educational system that is not shy about pushing a social or moral agenda of licentiousness and applause from a group who are looking for a magic bullet to avoid confronting their own poor reasoning.
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The overwhelming weight of the evidence is not on the side of your article, but if you wish to continu to prove my point, be my guest. The point made in the article is that parts of your own church sound like they are still in the Dark Ages on this, and, apart from consoling themselves as the world changes around them, they have zero effect of a positive kind. They do have one effect, which is to allow enemies of the faith to portray us all as bigota and homophobes, which does only our enemies any good.
Can you honestly, hand on heart, say that you think your own church is not going to change its position on this?
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It’s not the “Dark Ages”. It’s actually the age of universities.
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Tell you what, if you were using the technology of that era, you couldn’t reply. By all means stick with its theology, but be consistent and stick with its technology 🙂
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Yes. We have two Churches occupying the same space and have for quite a while. The Church that is supernatural in origin and is concerned about serving people and saving souls will emerge and the political Church that wants to please the whims of the world will ultimately be overcome. That is the sad truth of our times: we are a divided Church and the enemy is within even more than it is without. But the Church will overcome and the Gates of Hell will not prevail.
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The Church that is led by the Holy Spirit will, indeed, prevail. We simply disagree on which one it is.
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True. I will stick with the constant teaching and traditions of the Church for the last 2000 years and let those who have itching ears for novel teaching take their chances.
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Living things develop, Scoop, dead things initially stay the same then they decay. I have faith in the continuing work of the Holy Spirit.
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Your misunderstanding of the magisterium of the Church is similar to one a friend of mine also has. Our Church’s teaching is not some sort of blind authoritarianism that the Pope speaks, ergo sit. I have had to tell him this numerous times especially as he forces submission to Fratelli Tutti, something not even Pope Francis has done.
I have written briefly a page on my blog about the magisterium of the Church.
https://historyofnewengland.blogspot.com/p/the-magisterium-of-church.html
Of course, as the deaconess was saying to me on Saturday in a conversation we were having, for Greek Catholics, especially Melkites, we have our own functionally independent Patriarch and we only appeal to Rome for final matters of judgment, otherwise, we operate separately from Rome. Even still, the preservation of the traditions of the West is important for Easterners as well, and I think even my own conversations with the Archimandrite suggest that he knows this well.
The Church’s moral teaching is clear and cannot be overridden by any Pope just because he feels it should be. TBH, it has been pointed out by both a sincere Protestant friend of mine and a Catholic friend of mine that Pope Francis probably never even made the claim the media says he made about gay civil unions. My own recent complaints about the current Pontiff have never even made such accusations as to his “support of gay civil unions” because the media has provided no proof of such a documentary and it would completely contradict the character of this Pope! He has significant issues. Is gay marriage one of them? More likely not.
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I couldn’t help but laugh over what you wrote. It doesn’t seem at all like your church embraces a “love the sinner but hate the sin” spirit but rather seems as if your church just thinks loving the sinner means approving their sin.
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If you want to get into a discussion, I am happy to. If you were able to point me, as a starting point, to an official statement from my church approving the sin, it would be a decent starting point.
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The problem is with the metaphysical foundation. Your church claims it is not a sin while mine does. We’d need the same metaphysical starting points to even begin a discussion.
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In which case, it was rather silly to say what you said.
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I also want to clarify. You are a blogger, I am another blogger. That is the entirety of our relations. I intend to dispute your position on adult terms where we hold each other equal footing. It is not your business to instruct me on the Faith not is it mine to the same with you.
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You are. the one making erroneous statements about my church. I am the one pointing that out. There is no charge for this service 😊
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Let’s dissect then.
Your article contends it is not a sin and this is faithful to your church. So then your Church approves it?
Or your church affirms it’s a sin but loving the sinner and hating the sin means affirming the sin?
I am confused by your argument perhaps because you are confused or because you did not think this through.
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You stated boldly that my church taught, according to you, that as well as loving the sinner we condoned the sin. I asked you for proof, you ask more question.
The way discussions usually go is each side answers questions put by the other.
You were the one claiming my church regarded this as a sin and yet did not condemn it, I asked for evidence.
That was, and remains my question. When you answer it, you get to ask a question.
Discussion 101.
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Okay. The evidence is this article you wrote.
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You wrote that my church taught loving the sin and sinner, you have no produced any evidence that my church does not consider homosexual acts sinful. You can’t, because it doesn’t.
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Well it would be helpful if you would clarify your paragraph where you bring this issue up. I know there are more socially conservative Anglicans and there are more liberal Anglicans though.
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We began by your referring to the position of my church, having been unable to back up your statement about its teaching, you now ask about my position. I think we can agree, given that thrice you have been unable to support your statement, that you have no idea what my Church teaches. My position is simple and is stated in the piece. If people, love each other and want to enter into a faithful loving relationship, the can enter into a civil partnership, which the Church of England, and the Roman Catholic Church both approve of. Simple really.
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That is a non sequitor. What does our usage or lack of usage with a given technology necessitate about the theology we need to hold?
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Common sense does. If you want to be part of the modern world, you would not rely on medieval technology; why think medieval theology is any more useful than its technology.
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Huh? No it doesn’t. Technology is just means by which we communicate. Technology changes and develops. Theology is from God who is unchanging. And forget Medieval theology, I’m a Melkite! We go all the way back to the Patristics!
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If you think technology does not influence not only how we communicate but what we communicate and how we dialogue, I commend any history of printing.
Theology is literally, talking about God, that changes all the time. If you want to stay in some bygone age, that’s your choice, there was a time the Catholic Church would have called you an heretic and burned you.
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Okay now I’m going to ask for your source on that claim that there was a time when the Catholic Church would have called me a heretick and burned me. Methinks you aren’t as competent on liturgical tradition as you’d like to be.
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Are you saying that before 1724 the Roman Church did not regard the Orthodox as schismatics to be corrected? If so, that’s a great and important discovery.
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No. I am saying that the Catholic Church has always recognized the Rite of Constantinople as authentic and having valid Apostolic Succession. This is no discovery either. And the only Orthodox I am aware who was killed by Catholics and recognized as a Martyr in the Orthodox Church is St. Peter the Aleut. But that had to do with a territorial dispute between Spanish explorers and Russian explorers, not his Orthodox faith. Yes, we still recognize them as schismatics and even presbytera does not like how the Orthodox treat the Uniates. I am Uniates, not Orthodox.
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I recommend Sir Stephen Runciman’s books on the Great Schism and the Fall of Constantinople if you want to see how the Orthodox Church was treated by Rome. It is not a pretty story.
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I never said it did not recognise the Orthodox orders or rites, simply that it considered you schismatic. Read Runciman, who makes a very good case for regarding Rome’s attitude to the Filioque as a contributory factor to the fall of Constantinople and the deaths of thousands of Orthodox. Equally, talk to some Greeks in Greece.
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For the umpteenth time I’m Melkite! As in Melkite Greek Catholic. As in Greek Catholic. As in Catholic not Orthodox! When has Rome ever considered Uniates as schismatics? Never! And no, I’m not going to waste time with a book written by an LGBT medievalist with a beef against certainly Holy Mother Church but also the Orthodox schismatics! That is so a-historical! Even Met. Kallistos Ware has a more positive view of the crusades then the grim one you’ve co-opted. But blame everything on the Catholic Church! We’re useless!
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When did the Melkites become Uniate with Rome? What were they before the 1770s?
You clearly have not read Runciman, and if you can find one, just one, reputable historian who describes him as an LGBT historian then I would be amazed. His scholarship is widely regarded, and your qualifications for dismissing him, without reading him, is prejudice in its most naked form.
So, in sum, you have read none of the great Anglican Divunes, but can comment on Catholicity, no Runciman and feel able to dismiss him. Is there no beginning to your talents?
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For Runciman. Evidently, also an occultist who played with tarot cards yet I’ll humbly submit to his “infallible” scholarship on how wicked my Church is.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/poetry/2016/10/i-have-temperament-harlot-life-steven-runciman
Yes, we weren’t officially in reunification with the Church until the 18th century but that doesn’t make us Orthodox. Ironically, most Uniates submitted voluntarily to Rome as protection from the Turks. Something that would be unlikely and a form of Stockholm syndrome if Runciman is accurate.
I haven’t stated anything about the catholicity of Anglicanism from an inside perspective because I am Catholic, not Anglican now. My Church recognizes your Church as Protestant and schismatic. Why would I differ from my Church?
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If you had read the piece carefully it says he was one of the most respected historians, so what tarot cards a
Nd his private life have to do with that, and you must think so as you introduced the, I leave to you to explain.
As to submitting to Rome, it was that it the Russians, and Rome was further away. Runciman, who spoke all the relevant languages and worked in the archives understood these things. You would be better informed, and maybe wiser, if you read him.
Your Church’s view seems rather ill-informed about Anglicanism, and as you are better informed, I expected you to know better. Sorry for being wrong.
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I think his fascination with tarot cards reveals something strong about his bias. He may be a “well-respected” historian but it reveals how much historians have developed a hatred for the Church.
I don’t read occultists and what I have read shows strongly against this. It was in the 17th century that Ruthenians began asking Rome to take them into the Church because they realized the Holy Roman Empire could protect them from the Turks.
It is not “ill-informed”. Anglicanism has no monolithic doctrinal stances, it created a liturgical change which left the sacrifice of the Eucharist in dubious condition, and it changed the ordination rites. Ironically, the Novus Ordo did much of this too.
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The idea that Runciman was an occultist and that influenced his views of the church is held only by you. You ought to work on being less closed minded. I take it you have not read a word he wrote. How can you know anything about his views and his writing by reading one article in a left wing magazine. You do know the New Statesman is a socialist magazine?
If you have read no Hooker et al, you are poorly informed. Your own Popes support Vatican II and its changes. If you wish to stay in the distant past, best of luck. The Holy Spirit guides the living Church, not the museum church.
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Thomas Madden says of Runciman’s work it is “terrible history but very entertaining”.
Vatican II literally has no anathemas attached to it. It is not binding. And who says the Church needs to change doctrine to be living?
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Last time I looked, Madden lacked Papal authority. Many other historians agree that he was very good. I see you still have not read anything he wrote and are looking for historians who agree with you. Hate to tell you, that’s not how historians work, ask C451.
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On the Councils. I see, so any Catholic can say about anything in Vatican II “so what?” What was the point then?
Still, it’s good to know, because if you are correct, Humanae Vitae is not authoritative because it contains no anathemata either. Can that really be correct?
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Jessica – I would probably urge you extreme caution here.
Ever since I became aware that homosexuality actually exists and is real, it has seemed to me that if two boys, or two girls, like each other very much and want to live together in eternal happiness until death parts them, then far be it from me to stand in their way.
At the same time, I insist on exactly the same rules for everybody, irrespective of orientation and I’m not prepared to put up with practises between gay people which would be considered revolting if it were between normal boy-and-girl.
One example (that I gave before) is the case of Scott Rennie, the flag-ship gay minister in the Church of Scotland. He was married to a woman and he divorced her after 5 years of marriage, even though they had a daughter together. He then got together with his boyfriend. He left his wife because he didn’t find her attractive enough any more. If he had been straight, and if he had run off with another woman, I very much like to think he would have been kicked out of the church and politely requested never to darken the doors of the church again. But because he happens to be gay, that makes it quite all right.
Everybody knows just how attached children are to their parents, how much a child wants both parents – and wants them to stay together, just how much damage a divorce does to children. A Christian man with a child would do everything to keep the marriage together and remain loyal to his wife and child, irrespective of what discoveries he made about his orientation.
Please not that Scott Rennie is the flag-ship gay minister. By pushing him through and standing full square behind him, the Church of Scotland has, at the same time, said that divorce for any reason is quite all right. They have said that it’s quite all right to dump your wife if you don’t find her attractive any more and if she has stopped causing the blood to drain from your brain to some lower organ. It is quite all right within the Church of Scotland to get divorced for any reason, even if you have family.
The picture that you put at the beginning of the post hardly inspires confidence. This isn’t somebody who simply wants two boys, or two girls, who want to life in life-long union left in peace to do so – you have to wonder why she mentions `bisexual’. The rules of the game are quite simple; once one has chosen one’s life partner, there is no fooling about with anybody else, so `orientation’ is no longer an issue. But this doesn’t seem to be the line she is taking; she seems to have an understanding of the exhortation of the apostle John to `love one another’ which John never intended.
You have to be careful here. The case of Scott Rennie indicates strongly to me that the issue of whether two boys or two girls should be permitted to live in life-long union has been hijacked and is being used to push through acceptance of adultery, promiscuity, fornication and everything that is horrible.
Look back on your own life. If your ex-husband started going to the same church as you, would you accept him as part of the family? Would you be prepared to accommodate this? Really? If so, you’re suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
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I am not sure here Jock. Nothing I wrote was in favour of sexual misconduct, and this Rennie person sounds a bad ‘un. We know from recent reports that heterosexual people in the churches behave badly and it is covered up, or celibate priests do and they are moved on and cover ups continue. All of these things, I deplore, as all right thinking people do. That some people use the fact this man is a homosexual to justify his conduct is, of course, deplorable and nothing I have written would justify him or his ilk.
What I write against is the attitude of those like Scoop who do, unlike you, object to people loving each other just because they share the same sex. Would you urge caution on him and his church?
As to my ex, I have neither seen nor heard of him in years. One of the very first things I did was to forgive him, once I had got over the shock. I try to live my faith, and Jesus told us to forgive those who despitefully use us, and I try to follow his words as best I can. I hope if he walked into our church here I would say hello to him.
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In terms of Ms Beeching, she seems to me to be referring to a pre marital state. I am told it is now, despite church teaching, common for people to have pre-marital relations, and that being the case, some people, who are unsure about their orientation, may experiment. I did not take her words to be a defence of messing about once you marry. Though, alas, neither my church nor Scoop’s will let those with a same sex partner marry in church. That makes it hard to have sex outside marriage if you can’t be married. It may be just me, but it seems odd to condemn extra marital sex and then not allow some people in love to marry each other.
I am not being hypocritical here as I was one of the few people I know who actually stuck to the teaching of the church on pre-marital sex. I do, in unworthy moments, wonder how many of those opining on the subject of the teaching of their church on such matters as the once we are discussing, did the same? Our Lord had words for those who wanted to throw stones. I suspect if every man in the church who had committed fornication before marriage had to hold his tongue on such matters, it would be a very quiet world.
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>>>>>We began by your referring to the position of my church, having been unable to back up your statement about its teaching, you now ask about my position.<<<<<
Because I based my initial statement on what you said!
>>>>>I think we can agree, given that thrice you have been unable to support your statement, that you have no idea what my Church teaches.<<<<<
From a moral perspective, that is good to hear. I will comment then only on what your position is then.
>>>>>If people, love each other and want to enter into a faithful loving relationship, the can enter into a civil partnership, which the Church of England, and the Roman Catholic Church both approve of. Simple really.<<<<<
Well now, you just said this wasn’t the position of your church! At least those who have voiced opposition to Pope Francis’s private statement are being consistent. And no, the Catholic Church does not support such. I don’t know if Pope Francis said this, it contradicts other things he has said, but it is opposite to the orthodox doctrine of the faith and I’ll leave what to do about him to the canonists. That said, you are confusing love with carnal lust. Just because I have a sexual desire for something does not mean I love it and it does not mean that I should pursue sexual relations with it.
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I advised you to read up on what my church says. When you do you will find that I agree with it. It’s unwise to try the play the wise guy when you have not done the reading.
What your bitterly divided church does about a Pope that some here don’t even recognise, is it’s business. Best of luck.
Where did I confuse lust and love? Do read what I wrote which was about loving relationships and faithfulness.
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Jessica – and with apologies – I think you should be *very* careful.
I had never heard of Vicky Beeching before. Yesterday, I looked up Wikipedia and discovered that she is (or at least was) associated with something which goes by the name of `Vineyard;.
This (as I understand it) is something that was invented by somebody by the name of John Wimber and is `charismatic’ in the worst sense of the word.
I probably don’t have to go into the details – but it did strike me as being weird and satanic. I remember (when I spent two years in Orange County and Wimber was in his full swing) reading an article about him in the Los Angeles Times. The article was written in a positive tone, clearly written by somebody sympathetic to him. I imagined that such an article could have been written as a feature in one of the main UK newspapers, in much the same way, but exactly the same words and phrases would have been intentionally sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek. (Douglas Adams was thinking of California when he introduced `the planet with no sarcasm’).
Wimber was expecting the Holy Spirit to come upon people during the `worship’ service and I this manifested itself in weird ways – whatever `spirit’ it was, it clearly wasn’t the Holy Spirit.
So this woman is – or at least has been – into very dangerous nonsense (and there is nothing in the Wikipedia page to suggest that she repented of her earlier association with `Vineyard’).
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Thank you Jock. I had never heard of Vineyard. The post wasn’t about MsB but about what she says of LGBT issues, and I can’t imagine the Vineyard approves!
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