I watched this YouTube presentation by Gavin Ashenden this morning. He’s such a lovely man – you simply can’t not like him. It was such a loss when he converted to Roman Catholicism; he was the Anglicans’ voice in the world. Broke my heart, quite frankly, but when a godly man says he felt called by God to do this, we can’t argue. Who knows better than God where we should be and what we should be doing?
I’m going to step back and let you take over. After you’ve viewed the video, I’m very much interested in your reaction to it. I suspect there will be much to learn from the comments section. Like I said, not me; all you.
All Along the Watchtower 
Excellent post, Audre, and excellent video, as his always are. Far too good to be buried in the middle of the night.
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A great loss to our church, Audre. I just hope that the RC’s do better with him than they did with Newman.
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Yeah, we only made him a saint in the Church.
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Which was well deserved, and does nothing to change the fact that the RCC here had no idea what to do with him, not to mention the fact that the Ultramontanes regarded him as a dangerous liberal. Shows how time can shift perspective I guess.
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Ultramontanes are rebuked in the RCC. Newman was raised to Cardinal after a mere 2 years after his conversion by Leo XIII. His biggest enemy was probably another convert from the CofE, Cardinal Manning.
Can you think of Saint that did not suffer a cross to bear? It seems to be God’s way of testing those who are to be raised to the altars? Were John of the Cross or Padre Pio treated well?
What did he get from the CofE? A mock trial by a sex-offending pedophile by the name of Giacinto Achilli a convert from RC to the CofE.
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Newman converted 1845, he was made a cardinal in 1879 – I know I am bad a numbers, but …
It was Manning, the Ultramontane who was raised first, because he fitted with the agenda of Pio Nono.
The Achilli trial had nothing to do with the C of E.
Let’s see, what did he get, the plum preaching position at Oxford and a fellowship from which he launched the Oxford Movement.
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Ordination
13 June 1824 (deacon; Church of England)
29 May 1825 (priest; Church of England)
30 May 1847 (priest; Catholic Church)
Created cardinal 12 May 1879
by Pope Leo XIII
So sorry, my eyes fail me these days and I read 1849 instead of 1879. Still he was raised to the position of Cardinal . . . quite a feat for a convert.
One of the features of English anti-Catholicism was the holding of public meetings at which ex-Catholics, including former priests, denounced their prior beliefs and gave detailed accounts of the horrors of Catholic life. Giacinto Achilli (1803–1860), an ex-Dominican friar, was one such speaker. Newman wrote against his claims.
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None of which alters the fact that Pio Nono’s Vatican deeply distrusted him, which is why he had to wait until Leo becamee Pope.
On Achilli, glad you admit it was nothing to do with the C of E.
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So what if Pio Nono distrusted him. Why should he be any different than most saints and how would anyone be able to evaluate whether he showed heroic virtue in the face of adversity? Would it be better had he lived the life of Riley and never was tested and ended up just another cleric in death; which probably would have been his fate in the CofE?
I made no such assertion: the CofE regularly used these meetings to denigrate the RC Church (as you tend to do in an offhand manner). It irritated the hell out of St. JHN:
Newman emphasises the importance of responding to Achilli:
For how, Brothers of the Oratory, can we possibly believe a man like this [Achilli], in what he says about persons and facts, and conversations, and events, when he is of the stamp of Maria Monk, of Jeffreys, and of Teodore, and of others who have had their hour, and then been dropped by the indignation or the shame of mankind.[77]
So if Newman himself was incensed and was not about to go back to the CofE, how is it that you speak for him as being unjustly vilified. Many people are in our Church and your own. In ours, we use such opportunities to suffer with Christ who suffered, was persecuted and vilified for us. It seems to me that Newman drank from the same cup as did the saints who came before and after him.
You’re only upset because he saw that the RC Church was the One, True Church and not the CofE.
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Yes. The Catholic Church, Roman not being in the official title, as its pejorative, is full of people, and those people are sinners. And sometimes they sin against their fellow Christians. But Newman gave up everything to be a Catholic, he knew the cost, and knew that he’d be viewed suspiciously by all, both Catholic and Anglican. Newman picked up his cross and continued his journey because he was convicted that he found his home in the one true Church.
And Leo XIII vindicated him. For Newman, in Leo’s words was “My Cardinal.”
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You wrote, and I quote: “What did he get from the CofE? A mock trial by a sex-offending pedophile by the name of Giacinto Achilli a convert from RC to the CofE.”
Then you write: “I made no such assertion”. Make your mind up.
I never said Newman was incensed, he was a good and holy man. As usual rival factions in the Vatican got in the way. Fortunately, God triumphs.
Upset? No. It is not me who calls the leader of my church by his surname and regularly insults him and refuses to go to Mass.
Question, do you recognise this Pope as your Pope?
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Papa Franciscus est Papam!
I’m not sure what it has to do with Newman though..
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It was a reference to the ongoing quarrel in the CC between self-styled traditionalists and self-styled reformers which, frankly, to the rest of us is boring.
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Clear the air. This may get personal, but instead of being passively aggressive, which is my natural response, why are you so antagonistic? If you look at your comments about Catholics in general many of them have something of the nature of this entire comment and finished with “to the rest of us is boring.” What is the goal of these comments? What is the goal of the low blow Newman punches, which is history? I doubt they’ll change anyone’s mind, but nonetheless can be hurtful and it’s hard to think that’s the intent. Do you want to hurt Scoop? Or me? Or do you realize it? Is there something deeper going on here? I’ve been really working on being joyful because well, it needs work for myself. But honestly, what about you?
In more popular circles, I often tell Catholics to actually read Francis and then go read Pope JP II, you find a lot more similar than one would think. I think conflict sells ads and youtubers and publications on the Catholic front want clicks just like anyone else, I mean if I ever write a post on Pope Francis, that’s a bit critical, it gets more hits, than something that is more hopeful, there’s a reason and I’m trying to stay clear of it.
I want to be friends , but I think friends speak to each other differently.
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Good point Phillip, so let me apologise and practice repentance, or at least try 🙂
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And thats all we can do.
I think your post this morning best serves you. In that post, you explained what you believe you to be the good of your faith.
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Thank you Phillip – as C says, finding he tone after an absence of 4 years isn’t all done in the twinkling of an eye – but I will try to be good rather than be good at being trying 🙂 x
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This is the house that you built.
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It is, and I feel welcomed back into it. Odd, but for ever so long it has been impossible to write here, but it’s like something changed and words will come. Thank you for all you have done and do here 🙂 x
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Strange view of Newman and the RCC. In fact, in Catholic circles, Newman is highly regarded both by traditional and conciliar Catholics.
Many would argue that it was Newman who influenced the likes of Wojtyla, Ratzinger, Rahner, De Lubac, Kung, etc. in the Vatican II council. If that’s the case, Newman has a tremendous influence.
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Let us not forget that to be a saint is to show “heroic virtue”. How does one do this unless God allows these persons to be tested far beyond ordinary virtue?
As Padre Pio (another persecuted saint) was said: “The storms that are raging around you, will turn out to be for God’s glory, your own merit, and the good of many souls.”
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Yes. The theology of redemptive suffering runs deep. Newman’s influence is tremendous too with his oratory which would later become a haven for the famed Catholic JRR Tolkien, which out of their suffering would begin to bring out Tolkien’s literary genius.
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It’s interesting. Very, very much later, as you say, the RCC came to appreciate him. But during his life he was under suspicion from the conservatives in the Vatican. Not sure Scoop would think his influence on Kung, Rahner and de Lubac woujld be much to praise 🙂
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You’re right; but is it influence or the use of ambiguities that they exploited as they did with Scripture, the Early Fathers and other theologians. Modernists are quite adept at such things. And let us be quite clear that saints are not saints because they are infallible in theology. They are saints only in the sense of “heroic virtue” which they all displayed.
As for how long it took to become a saint: in the church (prior to the changes JPII enacted) it was not uncommon for the title to be withheld until all the public sentiment disappeared. Many saints took as long as 500 years to get raised to the altars. In that context his Venerable status and eventually his Saint status was done rather quickly.
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St John Henry will become a Doctor of the Church in due course, if your church’s internal warfare does not get in the way. But in the end it won’t, as God decides.
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By all accounts, the warfare in the Church began when Jesus selected the 12 Apostles and one of them was Judas.
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Alas, but remember, Judas’ sin was despair – so I hope all those Catholics who seem so upset with their Pope will not despair.
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Indeed so.
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