But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
-1 Timothy 2: 12-15
I have not had the opportunity to comment at length on Chalcedon’s series on women in ministry. As I have several different lines of thought, a post seemed more appropriate than a comment at this stage. In particular, I felt that the passage above needed confronting. This post will therefore have a few different sections, not in any particular order.
Priesthood
It is important to note that the English word “priest” is derived from the Greek word presbyter, which does not mean priest in the sense of a person who offers sacrifices. A presbyter is an elder (sometimes an ambassador in Greek or delegate). Presbyters were also elders who governed local communities (whether by holding office according to a local constitution or through wealth or local tradition).
This word seems to have entered Christianity from the synagogue, which is hardly surprising since many early churches were synagogues that had recognised Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah or groups that had broken away from synagogues or Jews who formed new messianic communities.
In the synagogue, the elders were the board that helped to oversee the life of the synagogue and they probably took leading roles in certain ceremonies, supporting the rabbi. For this reason, many Christians have concluded that presbyters in the New Testament are really the boards of elders that oversaw local churches and/or clusters of local churches.
If churches had been licit in the early Empire, they would have been responsible for representing them to the local authorities or even to the Senate or Emperor. As it was, they may still have done this in a non-official manner. Indeed, when interrogating and investigating churches under superstitio law, the Roman authorities may generally have preferred to ask the elders about matters.
Nowhere does the New Testament use the sacrificer Greek word for priest, hiereus, as a synonym or adjunct to elder. Whenever this word is used, it refers to the Jewish priests in the Jerusalem Temple, sacrificing under the Mosaic Law, or pagan sacrifice of animals, or the Christian community being consecrated as priests to God in a metaphorical sense, extending the Torah’s description of Israel as a kingdom of priests.
For this reason, although it seems clear that the Orthodox and Catholic idea of eucharistic priesthood evolved from an early stage in Church history (and therefore churches descended from them or from the earlier stem-line have this concept), it is not certain that the Church in the days of the Apostles had it. Therefore, for dissenting churches that go by the Bible alone, and reject certain developments in teaching and praxis, the in persona Christi / in capite Christi line of reasoning is not relevant to the question of women in ministry, because they reject the hiereus / sacerdos interpretation of presbyter or the celebrant at the eucharist.
For these churches, the questions are simply these.
- Is it right for women to serve in leadership positions (oversight, management, teaching, church-planting, and representation of the church to outsiders)?
- Is it right for women to conduct the eucharist?
There are no universal answers to these questions within the dissenting communities, because they take different approaches to biblical interpretation, falling along a spectrum.
Some view Paul’s teachings as binding for all time. Therefore, they bar women from leadership positions (though they may disagree about what counts as a leadership position in the sense Paul intended in the above passage and related ones).
Others view the New Testament ethical tradition as a set of principles that have to be applied in context and consider that different contexts may yield different results. These may therefore allow women to serve in roles that would not be open to them in more “conservative” churches.
A third group adopt a middle position, which is that some of Paul’s teachings are binding, because they sit within the firm teachings of the Lord / Apostolic leadership, but others are not, being rules he imposed on the communities he was directly responsible for, and subject to context.
Reading 1 Timothy 2
Paul’s passage above appears simple, but I personally understand why, in this century and the previous one, churches have wondered whether it is an absolute bar to women serving in some areas of ministry. The following problems arise when reading this text more closely.
- Is Paul’s reference to himself meant to be taken as referring to (i) the authority he wields as a missionary over the churches he planted and/or (ii) personal preference?
- How exactly did Paul understand the opening chapters of Genesis?
- Would Paul have considered this teaching subject to change if circumstances altered (e.g. such as the level of education women received and/or the roles they were allowed to hold in commerce, government, and society generally)?
For my part, I do not consider Paul’s teaching to be particularly radical in context. In his day, women were not allowed to serve as rabbis or elders; they did not generally hold formal positions of authority within Roman or local governments and certainly did not serve in the legions. Power that they did wield in local communities was generally exceptional and unofficial, in the form of influence through connections with powerful men or as strong business women.
The picture is different nowadays with equality laws, changes in society generally, and the introduction of women into leadership positions in various churches. But two points are found in the passage that would seem to suggest changes in our societies do not affect the fundamental nature of the sexes and the plan and purpose of God for creation. (1) Paul asserts that Adam was created before Eve and (2) Paul asserts that Eve was deceived by the Serpent, but Adam was not.
The thrust of Paul’s teaching seems to be that men are ordained by God to have authority of women, and not the other way around. Note that Paul refers to the creation of Adam (i.e. before the Fall), not the pronouncement of God about relations between the sexes in the protoevangelion. Genesis shows man and woman working together in co-rulership over creation as the image of God, but it clearly teaches that Adam was made before Eve.
As for deception, Paul seems to be teaching that women are inherently more likely to be deceived, and therefore it is unwise to put them in teaching positions. This strikes me as very problematic (as is his application of the primacy of Adam above). I imagine that he would concede there were exceptions to this general rule; but I have no doubt that if he made such a concession, he would then add that it does not change the general calculus, and thus it is safer to err on the side of forbidding women to teach.
It may be true that, owing to the educational practices of the time and other cultural considerations, women would generally not be suited to teaching and other leadership positions – but does that mean we ought to be bound by Paul today? I think, to answer this question, we must make a careful consideration of Genesis and Paul’s use of it – but that is beyond the scope of today’s post, which is already lengthy. I intend to write about that topic subsequently.
The Anglican Communion
Lastly, I have a few comments about how this matter has been handled in the Anglican Church. While I spent four years attending an Anglican church at university (which was evangelical-charismatic) and some time at my college chapel (which was Anglo-Catholic and where I received communion from a lady priest, who was very kind to me), I am certainly not an authority on Anglicanism. However, four points do strike me in this controversy.
- The women-in-ministry issue is not truly isolated because the different factions and agendas form alliances in the Synod and in other contexts. Proponents of women in ministry may, in many but not all cases, also be proponents of other “liberal” agendas, such as gay rights, etc.
- For those who espouse a liturgical understanding of Christian priesthood, I really do not see how women can be understood as priests, given the reliance in Tradition in this schema and Tradition’s unequivocal opposition to women priests.
- I really do not know what the “official” position on priesthood is in the Anglican communion, since parts of the Anglican tradition tend in the dissenting tradition and other parts tend in the liturgical direction.
- I question the motives of many in pushing for women to be ordained to the priesthood and episcopacy – and motives do matter in Christianity. Where things are forced on people and no respect is shown for conscience, we violate Paul’s teachings in 1 and 2 Corinthians and Christ’s teachings about serving one another and bearing each other’s weaknesses in love. I believe this issue has divided the Anglican Church and harmed it in divers other ways.
Jas. 5:14–15 and 1 Tim 5:7 show the duties of the presbuteroi. To teach and To give sacraments.
Although, You’ve sucked out the word ‘priest,’ which in the context of the entire piece doesn’t matter and put it into a vacuum to make this overall statement:
” although it seems clear that the Orthodox and Catholic idea of eucharistic priesthood evolved from an early stage in Church history (and therefore churches descended from them or from the earlier stem-line have this concept), it is not certain that the Church in the days of the Apostles had it. Therefore, for dissenting churches that go by the Bible alone, and reject certain developments in teaching and praxis, the in persona Christi / in capite Christi line of reasoning is not relevant to the question of women in ministry, because they reject the hiereus / sacerdos interpretation of presbyter or the celebrant at the eucharist.”
The word someone should be looking for is different in regards to Catholic and Orthodox. It’s mentioned in the New Testament and further explained by early Christian writings, but since the word wasn’t mentioned in this particular post, I’ll just leave it up in the air.
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Did you mean 1 Timothy 5:7? I’m assuming you meant 1 Timothy 5:17 “17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.” (NIV) While this passage may be indirect authority about presiding over the eucharist, it really doesn’t say enough by itself to build the sacrificial schema that the Orthodox, Catholics, etc use.
Indeed, the “love feasts” mentioned in Corinthians might suggest that there was no settled practice regarding the Lord’s Supper.
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Yes. 1 Tim 5:17. And again, the primary word isn’t priest that one should be looking for in regard to communion or the Eucharist. I’d argue it’s a red herring on the actual development.
But again, as I can guess you know the word, and still have failed to supply it, in a manner to continue to argue for an ambiguous “Lord’s supper.” I will also not divulge it, but used in the New Testament and explained in detail by both Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaus.
At any rate, as I talked to Scoop, yesterday, due to the comments and posts recently. As I had hoped this site would not go back to its sectarian ways, with pot shots on Catholicism here and there, and accusations of being a liar when pressed on a point of Scripture. IM glad there is activity here again, but I will leave you guys to it.
I’m tired of the same circle and dance, and eventually it leads people to getting mad and the site suffering. So, I’m just going to say goodbye for the time being and good luck.
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Honestly, I don’t know what you’re referring to, what word? I’m genuinely not concealing anything. Is there some Greek word you think I should be considering?
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The foundation of the Luther dismissing the ministerial priesthood relies on dismissing the historicity of letters largely from Ignatius of Antioch as forgeries, whereas modern scholarship says they’re most likely authentic. Those letters explain more the detail of a particular office and development that was used in the New Testament. The context of the letters are framed within the Lord’s supper.
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Do you have a reference for the letters or link so I can easily find them to read? I’m not familiar with all of Luther’s writings. My position is simply that the NT is not clear on the issue. Usually when I see Catholic presentation of NT passages on these issues, my reaction is: “That’s not the only way (or necessarily the obvious way) to read that passage.” I’m not saying the Catholic position is definitely wrong – i’m just saying the NT isn’t conclusive, which is problematic. The simpler reading offered by dissenters also conforms to those passages, which is why I believe it was wrong for the state to persecute dissenters, such as Baptists.
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In the New Testament, the word for priest and epískopos (Bishop) are used nearly as synonyms. So, a proper treatment of the word cannot be done so in a vacuum of strictly priest. For example, Bishop is found in nearly the same context as Acts 20:17, Titus 1:5–7 and 1 Peter 5:1. However, in Titus, we see from Paul there’s a change or rather a development distinguished in the two words, as he instructs the ordaining of such an office as oversight, that would distinguish it from the use of presbyter.
Now, you’ve made clear that it’s not a slam dunk at this point. However, as the term is used in the New Testatement and Bishops are priests even in today’s understanding in Catholicism. It’s important to highlight the late 1st century early Christian writings on the context of the Bishop.
Here the terms are distinquished by Ignatius of Antioch, “”and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 2:1″)
“”Do ye, beloved, be careful to be subject to the bishop, and the presbyters and the deacons.” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 5:1)
the bishop presiding after the likeness of God and the presbyters after the likeness of the council of the Apostles, with the deacons also who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the diaconate of Jesus Christ” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 6:1.)
“follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God’s commandment” (Ignatius to the Smynrnans)
So, if Ignatius, the disciple of John, and maybe even writing these letters within the life of John, it must be considered to be true apostolic teaching on the matters of the priesthood–that Bishop must be the term fundamental to the priesthood.
Naturally, Luther and Calvin, knowing the weight of Ignatius’ word being a direct disciple of an apostle, discredited these letters as forgeries and this view even persisted into the 20th century. However, the consensus of scholarship now believes that indeed these letters are authentic.
So, the understanding of terminology in the early church of the priesthood must flow from these letters and cannot simply be taken in a vacuum of the etymology of the word in the context of the use of the NT, as the NT also use the word Bishop interchangeably, and Ignatius further clarifies this understanding as examined in the letter to Titus.
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Yes, I read the Letter to Smyrna last night, and noticed the points you raised, plus the insistence on the bishop carrying out the eucharist and baptism. I have never heard of a woman serving as episkopos, and I think the letters are genuine because their style fits but is also hard to imitate. That being said, I think it might be worth checking the book Rob linked to because it mentions a Council forbidding women from serving in certain roles, which probably implies that they occasionally did serve up to that point. Still if there was never a consensus prior to the council that this was acceptable then that would be prima facie evidence for women as presbyters and episkopoi being generally considered heterodox.
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Regarding James – dissenters apply this and do ask the elders to pray over the sick. My point isn’t that elders don’t perform rites/rituals, but that we cannot rely on the NT to import a strict Levitical-style sacrificial ideology into the board of elders. Non-priests and non-Levites could offer prayers as members of synagogue leadership and the Passover meal was essentially a household affair. The ab bet presided over that.
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“All my best men are women” William Booth
It’s rather odd, I was converted through a movement that was very opposed to women ministering in the church in either teaching or prayer, they never even issued church notices. However many more of the missionaries who were church planting and teaching abroad were women.
Nicholas from the link below you will be able to download a booklet written By Roger Forster and Paul Marsden. It contains an outline of the views of the movement I am associated with and has a section on women’s ministry and their role in the church. https://www.academia.edu/31792788/Complete_Book
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Many thanks for the link and your testimony.
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Rob – well, for me it was the opposite. I don’t recall any conversion experience in my life, but my grandfather was converted in the mid 1920’s through the Salvation Army and he sent his children to the Salvation Army Sunday school.
For my mother, absolute equality was therefore normal – and she was very surprised to discover (when she went to university in the mid 1950’s) that this wasn’t standard and that there actually existed Neanderthal movements which excluded women ….. I don’t think she was outraged or anything like that – just very surprised.
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Excellent article, Nicholas.
I’m a life-long Anglican, infant baptized and confirmed. My parents were Episcopalian and that’s how we were raised. When the Episcopal Church (ECUSA) became apostate, I joined an Anglo-Catholic church (APA – Anglican, Province America) which, in the nuts and bolts of things, is the Episcopal Church without the social justice warriors, teaches and shares the accepted Gospel (preached everywhere, to all people, for all time), stands four square for the Bible, and uses the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (to my limited understanding, the American version of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer used in England).
Our ‘elders’ are a group we refer to as the Vestry; men and women are called to serve on the Vestry as it oversees the ‘physical plant’ of the church and the business side of the life of a church. The priest is there to answer any denominational questions and to break dead-locked voting; the Senior Warden is the head of the Vestry, there is a Junior Warden, and the rest are vestrymen (regardless of today’s verbal nonsense).
Because of St. Paul’s instruction for women to be silent in the church, our priest had a daunting task in getting women to sign up to take their turn reading the New Testament and/or Old Testament readings at Mass. He finally went to the Presiding Bishop who advised that women can read OT and NT passages in church, during the process of Mass, as reading is not teaching. I’m laughing to myself because he still had trouble getting the women to do it, lol.
Women can lead Morning and Evening Prayer for women. Women can teach Sunday school. Women can perform the duties of the Altar Guild. Women, after schooling for three years, can be deaconesses (a non-ordained position) which is a ministry to women and children and an extra pair of hands if the priest needs clerical help in the office; a deaconess maintains the same discretion as a priest so she is able to help with personal issues a female parishioner may be having with the priest.
But a woman cannot be a priest. I’ll say this til the day I die because it is quite simple to understand and impossible to deny – Jesus never called a woman to His ministry.
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Thank you, Audre.
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Culturally, Christ could have called women to the priesthood or even a purple cow if had He wanted: as He is God and we do not know why He did what He did . . . only that we have not the ability to do that which is novel to that which He did.
He was not shy (or working under a cultural restraint) about the things which He taught which may have gone against the norms if His day. He did not correct or stop those who left Him because He had said that His Body and Blood were food for them to eat (gnaw on). He could have, but He didn’t. He did not breathe on women and tell them that “whose sins you forgive will be forgiven”. Christ did what God would do because He is God and He chose 12 men as the foundation stones and priests to which He left the Church’s future to. Only they forgive sins (in Christ’s name) and only they carry on the consecration of bread and wine as He did at the last supper.
We can like it, or hate it, but the Church and the priesthood is so linked to Christ that it cannot bow to our cultural bias anymore than it should bow to the world. It is the world that needs to bow before Christ.
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In principle I agree with your line of reasoning, and I find the experience of watching a woman in vestments in the Anglican Church jarring. It seems to me the kind of compromise position Audre says obtains in her church is sensible: women in various roles, but not in others. Circa 2000 years of women not serving in pastoral/teaching roles etc is not to be thrown out the window lightly. But it isn’t objectively true that women do not have the intellectual and other skills for various roles. I have heard good talks and sermons from women.
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Sadly, these days, we turn to scholars (historians, biblical, liturgical, theologians) to explain away or defend the practice of the Church but overlooking the direct evidence that we notice throughout the Bible (OT as well) of men in the role of priests. All the other religions (the pagans of old) had priestesses. Not so for the Jew and not so for the Christian. Yes they had other supporting roles and yes they have many gifts (the largest being their gift of bringing new life into this world) but they are not given the role of priest or confessor by Christ. Can we object to Christ’s own decision in this regard? Not I.
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I agree – the Aaronide priesthood was exclusively male and the Apostles were men. We see no direct evidence of women teaching or doing anything along those lines in the early centuries of the church. It does seem likely, however, that they were involved in planting churches and supportive deacon-style work.
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Indeed, as a help . . . as it was from the beginning: (Genesis 2:18 and following).
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I would take a different view on the role of women in teaching and even as apostles in the NT Church.
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However, on the highest authority, you have to recognise that all Christians are priests, of a sort. The dissenting churches differ from the Catholic in so far as they claim that the universal priesthood of believers is the only sort of priest in the New Testament.
I think the non-Catholic contribution here has been very fair in addressing only non-priestly ministerial functions.
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Yes, we distinguish the common priesthood (priesthood of believers) from the ministerial or hierarchical priesthood. They are not the same.
The Catechism says it this way:
1547 The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, “each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ.” While being “ordered one to another,” they differ essentially. In what sense? While the common priesthood of the faithful is exercised by the unfolding of baptismal grace –a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the Spirit–, the ministerial priesthood is at the service of the common priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all Christians. The ministerial priesthood is a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders.
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You make the point that I have been trying to get my younger sister to understand. She tends to be the ‘pick and choose’ type of Bible reader – she only reads what supports her insistence of the ‘narrative’. She maintains that Jesus didn’t call a woman to ministry because of the times He lived in – all man-dominated.
I’ve have tried repeatedly to get her to understand that Jesus could – and always did – that which was contrary to the norm of His day. His whole Gospel in the eye of those times was extraordinary. That’s why people were amazed when they heard Him. He could have called a woman to be among the twelve. He was God with us, He could do anything at all if His Father’s will was fulfilled.
You’re quite right, of course; we don’t know why He didn’t but Jesus never called a woman to His ministry.
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Indeed Christ could have done anything at all. Nothing prohibited Him except carrying out the Will of the Father.
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Audre – if my memory serves me correctly, a few days ago you put up a post about the woman at the well (from John 4).
As I understand it, after Jesus explained a few things to her, she (horror of horrors!) started a teaching ministry where she taught (again horror!) MEN! who came to Jesus as a result of her teaching.
I didn’t see Jesus getting upset about this.
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She didn’t teach the men, Jock; she brought ‘the Gospel’ to them. They then went to Jesus at the well and stayed there with Him while HE taught them. She carried the good news to the men but it was Jesus Who taught them.
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Audre – well that (as I understand it) is what the teacher is supposed to do for you – bring the gospel to you.
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Anyone can bring the Gospel to anyone; it’s the priest who teaches for understanding.
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The meaning of Paul here is clear and plain – he is negative about women in positions of authority and he goes back to the opening chapters of Genesis to substantiate his point of view.
At the same time, I know that I am `in Him’ and I know that a strong influence was my grandfather’s faith; he came to faith through the Salvation Army – which always held the principle of absolute equality.
I am therefore not prepared to agree with the apostle or say that he is right in this matter; the ministry of women has clearly been blessed by God and has brought people to faith in Him.
For me, this is decisive.
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I personally take a middle view which is that Paul is right about various things, but if we are presented with good evidence to the contrary on matters where he seems to be presenting his personal view, we are at liberty to disagree with him, provided our consciences are clear.
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That seems to be a strange view of the “Word of God” Nicholas. It’s either the Word of God or it isn’t. It is either inspired by God or it isn’t. Subjective or objective comments seem to be tares among the wheat and we are left to a completely individualistic understanding of the Word of God and are capable of denying any part our conscience decides individually. That is not a Church of principles it is a melting pot or loose federation of individual beliefs; everyone with their own interpretation . . . any is as good as another. There is no unity only diversity, no Truth only speculation, no order only chaos.
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Well, inerrancy is a hot-potato, but I don’t think what I have said is actually different from the current Catholic position. It seems to me that the scholarship and post-Vatican II leadership does admit that not everything in the Bible is correct or absolute, while still affirming that Scripture is sufficient for teaching the way of salvation.
For example, Paul was wrong about medicine in his day. There’s nothing to be done about that: that is an error in Scripture.
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Not it the fundamentalist way, we don’t. But in the understanding of what the text is trying to convey, we accept it and understand it universally (or should). It is another reason why authority is important in understanding the difficult parts of scripture. Some of these hard to understand things have been revealed and others are not settled Teaching. I think our understanding of the ministerial priesthood is well understood and and is consistent.
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I agree with understanding the text in context; I just think there are a few places in Paul where what he presents appears to be his personal preference and rule for the communities responsible to him, rather than universal apostolic teaching. And we do see that “disciplines” such as priests being celibate, have changed throughout church history – so this might be one such issue that is (i) not universal and (ii) subject to change.
Re the ministerial priesthood: I just think the NT is not clear on this issue. The clear texts are all patristic or similar in nature.
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Continence was always prized.
NT is clear that it is how Christ formed His Church with men at the helm. Nothing could be more simple. I think that is what baffles all the scholars and causes endless debates. It is simply the way He did it. It is pure simplicity itself and anything straying from that is pure speculation and novelty.
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Also, was Paul teaching on medicine or something else? There is huge difference. When he spoke of women in ministry he was speaking of women in ministry and not giving a personal opinion.
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In the passage above, Paul says “I suffer not…”, which means it is expressed personally. This leaves some room for doubt; whereas if he had said “God has ordained” / “Christ instructed…” / “The Apostles teach…” or similar, I don’t think there would be room for doubt.
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I’m no biblical scholar (thanks be to God) and am not ready to decide what a phrase like “I suffer not . . . ” actually meant to Paul after it was translated into these words. I only know the obvious. And the obvious precludes the use of women in hierarchical ministry as did the OT Church.
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To clarify, by “hierarchical ministry”, do you mean preaching sermons/homilies and administration of the sacraments (marriage; baptism; ordination; reconciliation; extreme unction; eucharist)?
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Lets clarify where the teaching is taking place. If it is a Bible Study or a personal witnessing of faith (outside of the ritual of the Liturgy) then yes. We would say that a sermon/homily is reserved to the priest as it is part of the Rite. Christ is represented by men in this role . . . not women.
As far as administration of other sacraments there is two where women are part of the ritual (or can be under certain situations). In time of need or pending death anyone (male of female) can administer baptism. In marriage both partners are considered to be the presiders or acting in their common priesthood when taking their vows. None of the others are possible without the ordained (male) priesthood.
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Okay, that helps. I agree that the NT never clearly presents women performing the male-only hierarchical roles you have specified. Some will accept this, others will say it is an argument from silence. I’m personally inclined to the analysis provided in the book Rob linked to (though I might quibble about one or two points).
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I didn’t read it but Rob has been commenting on how he believes. To me, I cannot make it any more simple that how I have previously stated.
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I don’t think any of have a problem understanding The Catholic viewpoint – we just do not agree. The primary difference is – is there a special priestly function in the NT. Then within dissenting churches, we have the issues of what ministerial roles women should fulfil. I actually began my Christian life in the most conservative movement that did not allow any ministry of women in church gatherings. I gave a link to a book that briefly revies and interprets the NT material on women’s ministry.
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As I said this dissent in Churches only dates back to the reformation. Those that broke from us before that still have male only ministerial priesthoods.
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We do not accept that there were any ministering priests as Catholics understand them in the NT church. That church existed prior to the reformation so your claim is the logical fallacy of ‘begging the question’.
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Then you accept the testimony of the Teaching of the Twelve, The Didache, as a hoax? The teachings of the early Fathers of the faith as monstrous liars? It’s one or the other or both.
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I have not read in them what you apparently have However, it has been a while since I read them. If you have particular passages for me to consider I will look them up in context.
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Simply put, you will not see any witness to women priestesses in the NT Church. In fact it was not fashionable in mainstream Protestant Churches when I was younger either. It is recent development and gained more support after the age of feminism dawned during the 20th century. As I say, it is a novel idea.
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I cannot remember reading about male priest in the Didache – but as I said it has been a while – I’ll take another look.
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“Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers.”
All other references throughout the text are always in the masculine.
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Irenaeus
“Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.
“When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’
“Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him” (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures . . . ” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).
“It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34–35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office” (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).
Hippolytus
“When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all” (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).
The Didascalia
“For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us” (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).
Firmilian
“[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist” (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Nicaea I
“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).
Council of Laodicea
“[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church” (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians] . . . In an unlawful and basphemous ceremony . . . ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit” (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).
“It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess” (ibid.).
“From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses” (ibid.).
“If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good” (ibid., 79:3).
John Chrysostom
“[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature” (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
“A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety” (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]).
“Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them” (ibid., 3:16).
“[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. . . . But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ” (ibid., 3:9).
“A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women” (ibid., 8:28).
Augustine
“[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman” (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).
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` ….. she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women” ‘
Scoop – this sounds GREAT! How did they baptise women? What exactly were they doing for the sake of decorum? The mind is beginning to boggle …..
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Women, dressed in white baptismal robes were dunked and the cloth was then rather transparent (you could see everything). So for the sake of modesty Deaconesses (usually the wife of a Deacon) were used to wrap them after they were baptized and for modesty.
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Ah – see they were good old baptists.
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” None of the others are possible without the ordained (male) priesthood.” Which means of course that according to Catholicism millions of Christians have never partaken of the body and blood of Christ and according to traditional Catholic belief and John 6 would not share in the life of Christ. Yet the Roman Catholic Church (I think) no longer teaches this so I fail to see how you can make all this logically hold together.
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I certainly feel that the dissenting position is much more inclusive. If the eucharist is administered wherever true Christians do so, then everyone receives Christ, whatever denomination they are in, which seems closer to the Spirit of Christ, in my opinion.
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The Roman Catholic faith thinks that this Sacrament is the source and summit of our faith. Unless validly ordained priests (receiving the apostolic blessing) consecrate the bread and wine then it is only a symbolic representation of the sacrament.
But who can tell God who He will save? I cannot and the Church cannot but we know what His intention was. We are to be united in Christ and together to receive Him and have Him dwell in us. And is there anything more personal that having Him become part of us through the reception of Christ as our Spiritual food and drink?
So allowances (if you can call them that) do not preclude to say that God is not God and cannot exhibit mercy to those Whom He feels are His friends. But we do know that the Church was founded to give us the structure to form and strengthen this faith and is the Sacraments are there to help us in this task. So the division of Christianity is a scandal and we all pray with Christ that we may be One. It probably won’t happen but we still pray for it. Christ is not divided and His Bride or Body is not divided supernaturally and it shouldn’t be in the world either. But we are fallen men and men do what they do best; argue, bicker and find any means to break communion with their fellow men.
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I don’t think taking a position of deciding for ourselves when am apostle is right or wrong can be Justified. However, we do have one instance where Paul says he ‘thinks’ he has the mind of Christ on a matter. When it comes to the ministry of women I take a position of absolute equality in every area of ministry and do not think that conflicts with Christ or Paul or with the evident blessing that we can observe from such ministry.
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In general I agree – I am only talking about relatively few instances where it sounds like Paul is putting forward his personal preference rather than stating something in general terms. Things in generl terms are presumably absolute, universal teachings.
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You cannot get around the fact that Christ only chose men, breathed on men and gave the blessings. Just as in the OT Church the fathers had blessings that they could give to their first born sons etc. It is the way God built the early Church and it sets a precedent for how Christ built (or fulfilled the OT Church) upon the foundation of Moses and Aaron. Mary was not too pleased to find that she was not equal to Moses and I doubt that we were meant to question Christ’s judgment on His choice on who He picked to lead the Church.
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I think, if Catholicism is true, then that sort of argument fits. I’m just not convinced of some of the central claims. The Apostles were special, but the NT suggests women did have various roles. I therefore am not certain that the way the Catholic Church understands the link from the Apostles to the churches they planted is the full picture or quite in conformity with it. I think that the vast majority of leadership roles were filled by men; but if there is a talented woman who has all the right skills, I am not clear on why she should not be permitted to teach or do certain other things. Regarding the Lord’s Supper, it certainly seems very odd to have a woman carrying out the primary ritual, but on the other hand, there is a strong emphasis on us as a community – “…because we all share in one bread”. I wouldn’t refuse bread and wine offered to me by a female believer and I would consider that the Lord was present – unless there were other signs of something being very wrong.
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Nobody suggests that women have not had roles in the Church from the beginning . . . only that they did not have a ministerial/hierarchical priestly role.
Of course your lack of belief in the Real Presence and the Consecration of the bread and wine into the Sacrament of Sacraments limits your understanding. It takes faith to accept as does pretty much everything that is Tradition in the Church.
And even the separated Eastern Churches carried that aspect of the male-only priesthood forward. This new and novel idea of women and the priesthood is a creation of post protestant thought.
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Just to clarify, I do believe Christ is present in the Eucharist; I am not a memorialist; I just don’t know how exactly that works and prefer not to try and explain or examine it. I also accept that women as preachers and administrators of the sacraments is relatively new, which does give me pause for thought. But I am uncomfortable standing in the way of a woman if she has both the gifts and character to minister to God’s people. I do question the motivation of many women who have sought / obtained such roles, however. If their primary motive is to have something the Church says they cannot have, that is not a correct motivation and should not be rewarded.
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Neither can you get around the fact that Jesus asked the Father to send the Holy Spirit, in whom Jesus baptised 120 including women on the day of Pentecost to empower each of them for their ministry.
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Rob, of course. Christ wants everyone to be baptized into the Church. And what type of ministry are each called to. Some men are called to the priesthood, others to religious life and others to spread the good news the best they can by their living out of the Gospel in their lives. Same for women with the exception of a hierarchical priesthood. Christ didn’t do it and we will not do it. It’s that simple.
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Well, you are fully aware that dissenting churches do not believe there is an additional priesthood and that we hold that all believers are priests. So, for us the constant Catholic claims are rejected.
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To each their own. It seems to claim that God made a mistake in how He organized the OT Church and Christ continued this mistake in the founding of the NT Church.
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I certainly think the Catholic position is reasonable given the various arguments and evidence you and others have offered. I think it’s fine for the Catholic Church to prohibit women from being ordained as priests – I’m just not 100% convinced and my underlying intuitions lie in a dissenting direction. Because my epistemology is of a certain nature; I’m not prepared to accept Catholic readings of the relevant proof texts as conclusive. As Jock has pointed out, women have been a blessing in various contexts and for me, it is more important to preserve the bond of unity unless there’s a red flag going up (e.g. serious error about a teaching like the Trinity or evidence of bad character, subversion, or usurpation of rightful authority).
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The problem lies in novelty. For Catholics that cannot be accepted. We are to pass on what we received. Christ began with men and the OT began with men in the priesthood and it shall continue to be that way until the end. Mary in the OT was condemned for claiming to herself the same sort of relationship to God that her brother Moses had . . . as did Aaron. It was never allowed to stand. It cannot stand now as it is fixed into the actions of Christ Himself. I need not examine texts to determine what might have various meanings and choose one that agrees with me. I accept the obvious. Christ chose men. The Church then chooses men for ministerial priesthood.
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Rob – neither can he get around the fact that God has blessed the ministry of women and people have come to faith through it.
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I agree. We all see that the great men of Scripture can be wrong sometimes. After all, very few Christians would support Ezra’s position of duffing up perfectly good marriages because the women were `foreign’.
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Yes, I have been uncomfortable with Ezra for a long time, but I have no firm position at the moment about his actions. My understanding is that (1) he was applying the Torah strictly and (2) he was concerned about the Israelites being led into idolatry again. Paul seems to accept Ezra’s general principles, since he warns Christians against marrying non-Christians.
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The issue with such marriages was the danger of idolatry and spiritual pollution in marriage to worshipers of other god’s – these being identified as demons in scripture. Non-Jews in OT time could abandon their false god’s and become Jews. Ezra was I am sure, as aware of this as any other Laws. We might speculate as these marriages were contracted when the Jews were captive – the wives may have been firmly committed to the host culture and god’s and seeing both as superior and were so unwilling to convert. I think its a matter that we do not have a record of the full circumstances. We may have a comment here on the majority of cases in which the upholding of the Lawa fro these returning Jews was essential. Paul in 1 Corinthians talks of immorality as partaking with demons and it is feasible that banned marriages in the OT context would have produced the same effects.
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Yrd, I am inclined to that view. I liked the book you linked to, by the way.
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Rob – I do think that if Ezra had meant this, then he could have worded it differently. He didn’t bother to allude to the texts of the pentateuch (which he could easily have done) which showed how non-Jews could be grafted in.
In the same way, for the priests it seems that he couldn’t care less about their commitment to the Lord; he was only interested in the fact that they were descendants of Aaron – and could prove it.
In any case, however you spin it (and I have thought of the ways one can frame it so that it makes some kind of sense) it looks rather sick to me.
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I accept how you consider it but I disagree. The fact that scripture does not elaborate on situations in many cases I think is quite obvious, Ezra proceeds according to the Law and it is an argument from silence that he applied all relevant Law so as I said speculation. My reason are built on scripture and practical encounters on the mission field with demonic spirits. So, we will have to agree to differ.
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Rob – on the mission field, have you seen situations where it is better for people to divorce because of differences in faith?
As far as `applying the law’ goes: if the Levitical law had been applied rigorously throughout, then every single one of the patriarchs would have been put to death.
I believe that Scripture (particularly the Old Testament) contains much of what it does because God wants us to see just how sanctimonious the priestly class is.
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“Rob – on the mission field, have you seen situations where it is better for people to divorce because of differences in faith?”
No, Jock, that was not my meaning. OT Law is not applicable in the NT and Paul deals with the situation of the believer married to the unbeliever very clearly.
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Rob – I personally think that Paul is taking the only decent line here.
Also – as I’ve said many times here (in relation to Chalcedon saying that `the church gave us Scripture’ to which I reply `the Hebrews followed by the Masoretes looked after the Old Testament – which gives everything needed for salvation – etc … etc …. You have seen the discussion) there is nothing new in the New Testament – the basic moral principles embodied in `Love the Lord your God’ and `Love your neighbour as yourself’ do not change going from Old Testament to New Testament.
Therefore, I take the view that if Old Testament law is not applicable now, then it wasn’t applicable then.
The faith (and godly moral principles) is the same. The only difference – they knew there was a `man of sorrows’ who was to come some time in the future; we know that the man of sorrows was Jesus of Nazareth. They had to perform some animal sacrifices to cover sin until His coming; that has now been fulfilled so we don’t have to do that.
As far as basic morality, how to treat other people, especially the person you marry and your children, this remains exactly the same. Either Paul or Ezra are wrong.
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These discussions are fascinating and I’m enjoying it immensely.
I do want to add this comment to ‘priests’ – who is and who isn’t. Yes, 100%, we all priests because THE PRIEST is in us (Priest, Prophet, and King). But that reference to us all being priests does not carry over to women being ordained or consecrated. That part of me that is a priest because of Jesus, is the part of me that ministers to women and children and does not require vestments or ordination or whatever it is that women who want to be priests are looking for.
Not being ordained or consecrated does not make women less effective at spreading the Gospel or sharing a love and devotion, or deep thought in the understanding of Scripture. There are many, many talented women who have much to offer but it does not make them fit for ordination. It makes them fit and necessary and loved when shared as it is meant to be. But not as a female ordained to a male ministry.
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On Anglicanism, which is the only thing I can talk about from experience, we’re grown up enough to allow that some take the view that they can’t accept women in ministry, but can see the arguments. They are well set out here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Women-Men-Scripture-Church-issues-ebook/dp/B00C2668Q0/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=steven+croft+and+paula+gooder+women+and+men&qid=1596908775&sr=8-1
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It is wonderful to hear from you again; I have missed you greatly – more than I can say.
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Oh, that’s SO kind of you, and nice to hear xx Thank you x
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