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What is one to say when someone questions venerating Our Lady? In me it inspires a sense of sadness. It drags the Blessed Virgin into controversy which is of men; oddly, or not, I have never had a woman find this a cause for controversy. One can, of course, pray for those who do this, and one can point out, for the millionth time that no one worships Our Lady. Those who refuse to see the difference between worship and veneration are, alas, like those who cannot see the difference between red and green; it is a form of spiritual colour-blindness. It is when they have resort to the Scriptures to support their views that a reasonable response can be made.
No one disputes that during the earthly Ministry of Our Lord, Our Lady was not one of those who followed Him from place to place. It is certain that we see her telling the servants at the Wedding at Cana to do as He tells them. It is equally certain that she tried to bring Him back home when He was criticised and attacked by those in the locality; so might any mother do for a beloved Son. Were St Mark all we had to go on then little attention would have been paid to Mary of Nazareth; but then were his Gospel the only one, we would be at something of a loss over the Resurrection. But of course, whilst concentrating on one Gospel and neglecting other sources may be the way of the polemicist, it is the way neither of the scholar nor reading with the eye of Faith.
Our Lady was there, with many others, at Pentecost, St Luke tells us this, as he tells us so much more about her. We know about the Annunciation because of St Luke, who also tells us more about the birth of Jesus than anyone else; it is Luke who also gives us the few details we have of His early life. St Matthew’s Gospel covers some of the same ground, but in less detail. Where did St Luke get his information? We cannot know, but we do know he collected information from eye-witnesses, and Our Lady seems the most likely source for all of this.
But let us go back a step. Why do we accept St Luke’s Gospel? Some time ago I asked Bosco what books he thought should be in the Bible, and he told me, no doubt in jest, that it was on the contents page. Of course there was no “contents page” in the original manuscripts, and we know their name and that they are “Scripture” only by the voice of the Church. Jessica wrote interestingly on the early history of the New Testament, and her piece has many references for those interested. The point to be made here is that the same Church which tells us that there are only four Gospels and which names them, also tells us that Christ was born of a Virgin. It does not go into detail about the early life of Jesus, but all the early traditions are agreed that Our Lady was a Virgin, and before relatively recent times, no one save a few heretics, read the Gospel references to the “brothers” and “sisters” of the Lord as being uterine siblings. There is more on this here, but the point is the same, that if we accept Tradition gives us Scripture, then we accept as a corollary that it knows how to interpret it; were that not so then on what basis would we accept the Canon of Scripture? As Austin Ferrers put it:
The fact on which our faith reposes is not the fact of Christ’s history alone, it is the doubtle fact of that history taken together with the existence of the spirit-filled Church which proclaimed that history and lived by its fruits. And the Church accepted the virginal conception as a harmonious part of the sacred story; once it had been set forth it could not be thought away; it belonged so absolutely in its place. Inspired authority established the belief; Ignatius and Irenaeus make it a kernel of orthodoxy.
There is, of course, nothing to stop anyone calling themselves a Christian and believing whatever they want, but they cannot in so doing claim to be orthodox or in the Tradition of the Church whose book they are choosing to read by the light of their own intellect; wisdom might suggest tempering one’s own views with the great cloud of witnesses who have been here before us.
The recent series on the origin of the Canon has, I hope, been a help here, as one of the things it shows is the importance the first Christians attached to “handing on” what they had received from Jesus and the Apostles.
There are limits to what even the Spirit-filled Church can do. She is inspired to proclaim facts and interpret them. She is not inspired to create new facts; that seems to be uniquely the job of people who think they know better. The Creed states orthodoxy. We believe in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, “conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.” There is, as St Matthew makes clear, a paradox here. In her “yes” Our Lady not only opened the gate to our redemption, she also opened the door to a personal scandal which could have ruined her life. Even the righteous St Joseph behaved as any man might on learning that his betrothed was with child. Being a righteous man he did not want to shame her, so he was minded to put her aside privately; only the Angel stopped him. Our Lady was willing to bear that for us.
Now, of course, there is nothing to stop anyone claiming that all of this tradition about the mother of Jesus being a virgin is just that, a tradition, but since the same is true about the canon of Scripture, I am not sure that the person making such a claim has not just sawn off the branch of the tree upon which he is sitting. In saying, in effect, “my reading of Scripture is x” he is begging the question of how he knows what is and is not Scripture in the first place.
Equally, there is nothing to stop anyone claiming that Our Lady had other children, although the very idea seems to me impious. But such a claim would need to explain why Our Lord gave over His mother to the care of St John rather, than as was the Jewish custom if there was more than one child, to the next eldest. So again, we ask ourselves whether the evidence of Scripture justifies what the Church has always taught, and we find that it does, and that it is the unorthodox who has to explain why the majority of Christians for most of history have been wrong and he and the few who agree with him is correct. Since, invariably, such critics also criticise the idea that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals, there is a certain irony in their insistence on their own infallibility in whatever matter it is upon which they wish to pronounce.
It takes a great deal of chutzpah, or perhaps it is ignorance, to prefer one’s own reading of Scripture to that of the Church which told us and tells us what it is. I have too little of either to wish to go there. Moreover, when it comes to the Blessed Virgin, I have to admit a bias. She is for me an invariable help in coming to her Son. In this sense, this is a very personal post, as I have found the Blessed Virgin an invaluable help on my journey, and sometimes she has been one of the few lights in the darkness. So, to those, such as Bosco, who insist on being unpleasant about her, I direct one comment. Just what do you think any good Jewish boy would think of anyone criticising his mother? If your version of Christianity pushes you to disparage the mother of Our Lord, then you, or it, is doing something very wrong.
Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.
Let me preface my questions with this statement: I have no axe to grind, no ‘agenda’ driving me, no denominational bias. I am asking simply because I don’t know and you are very knowledgeable.
Here in the States, we have EWTN – the “Eternal Word Television Network”, better known as the ‘Catholic Channel’. It has 24/7/365 Roman Catholic programming. I used to watch it a great deal as it was the closest thing, on television, to my own Anglicanism.
I stopped watching EWTN when Mary was ‘elevated’, it seemed to me, to ‘co-redemtrix’ with Christ. I found that – well, distasteful, to say the least. There was only one Person on that Cross. But I’ve always wondered if I was misunderstanding the intention? So my first question is, do Roman Catholics consider Mary as co-redeemer with Christ?
The above stated is what made me finally stop watching, but before that, there was a big ‘to-do’, celebrating the ‘immaculate conception’, which I, of course, assumed referred to Mary’s conception of Jesus. NO; I was surprised – shocked, gobsmacked? – that the reference was to Mary’s mother Ann(e)! While I am not a Biblical scholar, I know my Bible pretty well. Where in the world does that information come from? I did research – because this was something I’d never, ever heard before! – and was not able to access any information that Ann(e) was Mary’s mother or that she was born as a result of immaculate conception. What I did read is that it is a teaching or legend within the Roman Church. So, of course, my question to you is, what is this about and how is it verified?
I sincerely hope you take my questions in the manner in which they are meant. I’m not arguing or insulting or casting aspersions; I simply don’t know the answers and have always wondered.
Thanks for your help and patience.
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Audre – it’s only men who are supposed to be asking such questions!
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Audre is asking politely, not telling us we are wrong: it is only men who do the latter 🙂
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I suppose if we assume that the Bible is the only source of revelation and that it actually teaches this concept… we can take a look at what the Gospel text says in this manner. In fact, many Catholics will point to Revelations for verification of the Assumption of Mary; however, I think the Biblical evidence for this is far less convincing than the Immaculate Conception. Although, if I were to point toward a particular development of this doctrine, I’d first search to prove the Immaculate Conception then use Romans 5 as the basis of the Assumption.
I argue in my book “Birth of God in History: An Historical Examination of the Infancy narratives of Jesus Christ” that there is actually pretty good Biblical support for the Immaculate Conception–but you’d have to understand the grammatical system of greek, which doesn’t operate in the same way that English does with tense”
“Nonetheless, there is actually a quite convincing biblical
argument for the Catholic teaching, which is found in the Gospel of Luke. In the
Gospel text, the Catholic understanding for this dogma has evidence for Mary
being conceived without sin:
Gabriel says, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was
greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of
greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid,
Mary for you have found favor with God.”9
In regard to this particular scripture passage, the English translation from
the Revised Standard Version carries more theological weight than the New
American Bible translation. In the former Gabriel says, “Hail, full of grace, the
Lord is with you!”, whereas in the latter Gabriel says, “28 And coming to her, he
said, ‘Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you’.”95 The importance of this
particular passage is “full of grace”, which comes from the Greek word
kecharitomene. The tense of this particular verb form is a perfect passive
participle and the message that it conveys isn’t properly rendered in the New
American Bible translation. A perfect passive participle verb indicates something
that occurs in the past, present, and future; therefore, what Gabriel is saying to
Mary in Luke’s Gospel is that Mary is with grace throughout her existence – she
is conceived without sin. This particular passage therefore gives tremendous
support to the dogmatic claim of the Catholic Church of Mary’s immaculate
conception.” (Hadden, The Birth of God in History, p. 60-61)
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My apologies for the poor formating of this comment. WordPress didn’t seem to like the copy and pasting from my ole’ manuscript.
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Are you saying that Ann(e), supposedly Mary’s mother, and Mary were immaculately conceived? That completely knocks out the idea that she was a typical young girl of her time that found favor in the eyes of God. It also knocks out what all Christians everywhere forever have believed – that Jesus’ immaculate conception was an event unequalled anywhere in time and/or place.
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Luke is only referring to Mary in this passage of “full of grace.” Now, there is a passage like it found in the prologue of John. However, when John uses the phrase, different Greek wording btw, ” full of grace” it’s in reference to Jesus. And with that being said, for many non-Catholics , for some reason, this is a zero sum game because you keep bringing up immaculate conception in the context of Jesus, as if the concept of Mary’s immaculate conception seems to take away from Jesus. It does the opposite, just like Theotokos, it is a testament to the divinity of Jesus, so is the immaculate conception. Mary becomes the sacred vessel of the ark where the essence of God dwelled. So, as Luke, illustrated in the magnificat, Mary magnifies the Lord.
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And some Catholics view Mary as Co-Redemptrix–it’s not dogma, but some want it to be. If you remember right, I did address this you in a previous post and comment. I think this is a bridge too far. And Pope Francis thinks its a bridge too far. It’s typically traditional Catholics that hold to this view, I think it’s too far because it’s confusing to a great many people. Ludwig Ott, Catholic Theologian, explains in the depth what this concept doesn’t mean in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
“The title Co-Redemptrix…must not be conceived in the sense of an equation of the efficacy of Mary with the redemptive activity of Christ, the sole Redeemer of humanity. As she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by Christ.”
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More from Ott,
“Her cooperation in the objective redemption is an indirect, remote cooperation, and drives from the fact that she voluntarily devoted her whole life to the service of the Redeemer, and, under the cross, suffered and sacrificed with Him.
“Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross, Mary merely gave Him moral support in this action. Thus Mary is not entitled to the title Priest…He alone acquired the grace of Redemption for the whole human race, including Mary.”
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In regards to the names of Mary’s parents, so far as I know, they are found in an early-Christian document about 2nd century A.D. The Proto-Evangelium of James., or the Gospel of James. It’s not canonical, of course, but it is important for the early history of the Church because it’s an early Christian document and it does shed light on some of the basic traditions of the church. For example, In the Gospel passage on Zechariah in the temple, we have more of context of the casting of lots for Zechariah being the temple, as the Pro-Evangelium refers to Zechariah as High Priest.
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Phillip has very kindly offered some explanations. Let me add my bit.
Co-Redemptrix is not dogmatically declared. It is unfortunate that in English ‘co’ as in “co-authored” usually designates equal partners, because it is that which creates the problem to which you alude Audre.
No one is claiming that Our Lady is the equal to her Son, that would be blasphemy. Lumen Gentiu,, 1964, sums it up well here:
“Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her.”
Last year Pope Francis caused some consternation in traditionalist circles when he said:
“She never wanted for herself something that was of her son,” Francis said. “She never introduced herself as co-redemptrix. No. Disciple,” he said, meaning that Mary saw herself as a disciple of Jesus.” https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/12/pope-calls-idea-of-declaring-mary-co-redemptrix-foolishness/
It is best seen as an act of piety to Our Lady, a recognition of her unique role as the Handmaiden of the Lord.
Phillip has answered very well the question of the Immaculate Conception. If Our Lord was fully human, and we believe He was, then how was it that He did not inherit the fault of Adam and its penalty? The only answer is that His mother was purified in the womb.
I hope that helps a little Audre.
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…. so he wasn’t really fully human after all; he didn’t have to deal with the `bad stuff’.
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There’s actually a fairly complex theology on. The Trinity that explains that Christ is similarly sustained by the Holy Spirit in his Incarnation as man would have been prior to the fall in original holiness. To be clear that is a rather insufficient explanation, the important thing to remember is that in Christ’s humanity there is the working of the Spirit. Fr. Dominic Legge of the Dominican House of Studies has a book on the subject from Oxford Press.
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And logically if the perfect good is wholeness and sin a deprivation then to lack the bad stuff would actually make you even more fully human.
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Oh He was fully human, but so conformed to the Divine will that He was without sin. But that still left the inherited sin of Adam, which, as the first fruits of the Resurrection, Our Lady was without.
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Chalcedon – well, as you know, I don’t go along with the doctrine of `Original Sin’ in the sense that you mean.
For me, a sin is something that you either think or do (or, more commonly, `sins of omission’, something you don’t do that you should).
For Jesus to be fully human, I believe that he must have had all the pre-disposition that we all have – and yet he overcame it and did not sin. Yet he was crucified for our sin anyway.
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This is one of those subjects where we shall have to agree to disagree, Jock.
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Happy to reach an amicable disagreement.
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Quite frankly, I’m going to have to do some thinking about this (please see my comment to Philip, above). This requires long thought and many prayers, as you know this is completely outside my purview.
But I thank both you and Phillip for your kindness and patience in dealing with my questions.
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Audre – yes, but don’t waste too much energy on it. There are far more important issues.
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I reflected on its importance on my Catholic blog-
‘In past years when reflecting about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception I have thought that it is, no doubt, a beautiful thing but what practical difference does it make in our daily lives if we believe in it? There are a number of possible answers to that but perhaps the most profound one is that it is important chiefly because it *is* a beautiful thing. Man (male and female) does not live by bread alone and when the Almighty does something because it is fitting and beautiful not because it is necessary then He is feeding us with something that is more than material, something that we need because we are more than merely animal.’
https://thoughtfullycatholic.wordpress.com/2019/12/08/immaculate-mary/
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Some of the saints, most notably perhaps St Josemaria Escriva, have said that *all* Christians are called to be co-redeemers with Christ-
“Truly the Cross of Jesus is gentle and lovable. There, sorrows cease to count; there is only the joy of knowing that we are co-redeemers with Him.”
This does not mean that we have in any way effected the Redemption, Christ alone performs that work, but it does mean that we have a vocation to co-operate in bringing the fruits of that Redemption to the world. Mary’s role in co-redemption was essential, without her co-operation there would have been no Incarnation, our co-redeeming forms part of the fabric of the living body of Christ, it is essential to *us* that we perform our co-redeeming function but it is not essential to the fact of Redemption, available to all, which Jesus performed once for all on the Cross.
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So, far as I know, both Luther and Calvin never questioned the perpetual virginity of Mary. In fact, in the Gospels, I wish I could recall the passage, but there’s a reference to Jesus’ brothers that I can’t exactly remember if it’s a different gospel that references some of these “brothers” again and then states that their mother is a different woman. I can try to look it up, but I am sure someone here knows to which I am referring.
What is far odder to me is the resistance to Mary being referred to as Queen, as this has clear references to the Old Testament perception of who is the queen within the Davidic Kingdom–it’s the mother of the King.
“So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her and bowed down to her. Then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right.” 1 Kings 2:19
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I also write about this topic a bit in my book “The Birth of God in History” and Dr. Brant Pitre’s exegesis on the subject of perpetual virginity as being a custom in Judaism by analyzing Number 30.
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