Our long-time commentator, Jock, recently wrote “as far as ‘church’ goes – it is the police (gestapo) aspect that concerns me most of all.” That is to be read in the context of a long dialogie about “church” and what it means. Here, some words of Michael Ramsey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, and one of my favourite theologians, might be called in aid. Commenting that when “we say we believe in the church, we do so only and always in terms of our belief in the God who judges and raises up.” He then goes on to add:
The mistake of ecclesiasticism through the ages has been to believe in the church as a kind of thing-in-itself. The apostles never regardfed the church as a thing-in-itself. Their faith was in God, who had raised Jesus from the dead, and they knew the power of the Resurrection to be at work in them and in their fellow believers despite the unworthiness of them all. That is always the true nature of belief in the church. It is a laying-hold on the power of the Ressurection. And because it is that, it is always on the converse side death: death to self; death to worldly hopes; death to self-sufficiency; death to any security for the church or for Christianity, other than the security of God and the Resurrection. [The Gospel and the Catholic Church].
It is a reminder to us all of what can be so off-putting about the Church – and by that I mean any Church, not simply my own.
In my own Church, as in others, the pejorative description is “clericalism,” which in practice is often no more than the sort of professional camderarderie which can, and therefore does, grow up in any organisation. It is when it gets out of hand, when it appears that what matters is the church itself, not in terms of our belief in God, that things can go badly wrong: it is at the root of all the clerical abuse scandals. It is easy enough to understand how a cleric’s reaction to child abuse, or other sorts of abuse, could be to seek to temper the damage done to the church by “moving on” the suspect, but what is less easily understood, except in terms of clerical group-think is how anyone could have imagined that the longer-term damage would not be more severe; what is impossible to understand is why the first thought of any cleric was not for the victim of the abuse. But, it might be protested, organisations often behave in this self-protective way, to which the answer in the case of the church would be to quote Archbishop Ramsey. Belief in the church as a “thing-in-itself” is ultimately self-defeating.
If the church, any church, seems centred in its own concerns, the chances are that it has lost touch with what, or rather Who, it is there for. Decades of well-meant ecumenism have shown that at national and local level “churches together” can act as one, and the communities where that happens benefit from it. During the current crisis many churches have worked together to help those in need locally. We hear little about that, and much about the supposed failure of Bishops to challenge the Government’s regulations from well-meaning critics who argue one side of a case as though it were the whole picture.
Our faith is in God, and for all the failures of the men who lead it and have led it, the Church is the repository of the dogma and doctrine that has been received from the Apostles. One is at liberty to doubt that, and given the number of churches, it is natural that it should be so. But absent that belief, what have we but a free for all where one person says “x” and another “y” and there is no way of deciding, for example, between the statement that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, rose again on the third day and ascended into Heave, and that He will come again in glory to judge the living and dead, and statement that he was a very good man who went about doing good deeds and died a cruel, but ultimately pointless death? That was not how the Apostles and their their successors proceeded; it cannot be how we proceed.
If we remember and heed Archbishop Ramsey’s advice, we shall at least not swerve far from where we should be. As Jock, like so many, have discovered, the gap between the rhetoric and the reality can be one down which so many people fall. There have been many during the crisis who have claimed that “church” is more than the building, a response to an allegation no one has ever made, though if someone can supply a source for someone saying “the church is just a building” it would be interesting. We might, however, all with profit ponder on Ransey’s words: “we say we believe in the church, we do so only and always in terms of our belief in the God who judges and raises up.”
While I don’t pretend to understand Jock’s statement about the gestapo aspect of the church, I appreciate your taking the time to point out that at no time ever did ‘Church’ (a denomination’s entirety) or ‘church’ (our local houses of worship) mean a building. The faithful are the church (Church) – the people of God are the church. Jesus is head and cornerstone of the Church (of all faithful people) and we are the members of the body that help the church work in the land of the living.
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I don’t think of the Church as a ‘thing’ but as the lotus Christus (the head and body, the bride and bridegroom being made one, the mother to whom all the baptized have died with Christ to be reborn into a new family or, in other words to be reborn in Christ).
The CCC expresses beautifully:
The Church is communion with Jesus
787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: “Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches.”216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”217
788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: “By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation.”219
789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.
“One Body”
790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: “In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification.”220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which “really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another.”221
791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: “In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church.”222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: “From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.”223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”224
“Christ is the Head of this Body”
792 Christ “is the head of the body, the Church.”225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, “in everything he [is] preeminent,”226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.
793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, “until Christ be formed” in them.227 “For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified.”228
794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.
795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:
Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231
Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232
A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”233
The Church is the Bride of Christ
796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the “bridegroom.”235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 “Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her.”238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239
This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? “The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church.”240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh.”241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself “bride.”242 __ this last quote is from St. Augustine.
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That was supposed to read the “totus Christus” or whole Christ, the head and the body.
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I was wondering about that….
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🙂
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My own feelings are that we are United as a mystical Body by the blood of our Saviour. He founded a Church and that Church exists to proclaim the message that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah,the Son of the living God. He entrusted His Apostles with beginning the mission, and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
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Indeed – and when we no longer see as through a glass darkly we shall know, as we are known.
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Perhaps part of the pressure of these times is to act as a kind of purgatory to prepare the Church for such transformation and revelation. I have written to Richard about this.
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as always, i think its good of good brother chalcedon to recommend i join the faith that he believes is the true vehicle to salvation. thats why i love him so much. but ive always wondered why he doesnt tell good brothers Rob and Neo and Nicholas and Jock that they should join his faith? doesnt he want them to find salvation?
ive never like the word church. it sounds so stuffy. and growing up, everytime i heard that word it meant getting my sunday clothes on, with my mothers guidance, and sitting around either in the main church or sunday school. of course, i never ever wanted to go to church and smell the mint of the chewing gum thick in the air.
but the word church is used a few times in scripture and i have to go with it. i like the term bride better.
the word church has a clear meaning in scripture. it is the sum total of all the people who are bborn again, or saved if you will. saved is short for…saved from the wrath of god. every unsaved person has their idea of what saved is, because not being born again its impossible to know what its like. ive tried millions of times here and other places to explain it, but to no avail. jesus even warned me that they cannot understand the things of the spirit. he blinds them. why, i dont know. why doesnt he open everyones eyes. jesus does give a reason for that, but i dont want to get into it.
yes, the church is people, the sheep of his flock. the religious all think their faith is the flock. they wouldnt be in it if they thought the flock church was down the street. you cant pin that egocentric behavior to the protestant world. first, Protestantism isnt a religion. its just folks who believe the bible and go get told that they are gods people befor being dismissed. well, they arent , and i got up in front of the church my family attended and told them, as my parting speech to them, that they werent saved and they needed to repent and get saved. something they never got from rev galloway, my long time family friend, who married my parents, by the way.
the church is the sum total of the saved. “my sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow”. in the holy ghost , there is no confusion. the born again know they are born again, except if your name is Bosco, who never heard of the term born again. Bosco realized it a few yrs later. i knew i was somehow different, but i didnt know there was a name for it. i didnt care either. ive seen almost all of the readers here admit they arent 100% sure if they are going to heaven. quess what, if you arent sure, you arent going. the born again know jesus personally and know they will follow him to their reward. theres no question. its not even an issue. rule of thumb number one….youre not saved if you arent sure. rule number two…you arent saved if you belong to a religion and expect membership to maybe save you or some female deity to pray for you at the hr of your death. you know very well prayers can take yrs to be answered. if you are sliding down and about to kick that big bucket, you dont have the luxury of someone to pray for your wicked soul. dont believe the CC, there is no safety net, no second chance.
good brother chalcedon wants to know why i havent joined the CC, which claims everyone must join or perish.catholics believe its gods church. the church is a pilgrim on this earth. something i hear every now and then from a catholic who claims the CC is a pilgrim. obviously, if its gods church it has all the attributes the bible says it has. poor blind religious people. i used to be blind, thats how i know. the church of god doesnt have costume holymen who have to go to school to learn to be men of god and receive a man of god certificate. the church doesn’t have a money laundering bank or a jail or a flag or a headquarters. the saved dont have a seat in the UN or diplomatic immunity. a pilgrim. …oh yes, the wonderful CC is a pilgrim on earth, just like the bible says. the CC owns more stock, is the biggest land owner(it stole the land from those it burned to death) and has the largest stock pile of gold ever seen on the planet…..so, we can safely exclude the CC from being gods church. so where do we find gods church? answer; you dont. you become gods church by opening the door to christ and inviting him in and getting to know him. jesus said that no one goes up to heaven but he who came down from heaven. the spirit you have in you now was made on earth. when you are born again you get a new spirit that was made in heaven and knows jesus and was with jesus. now you can go to heaven. you are part of the bride. you will be led to others that this has happened to. let me tell you…they sit there staring at each other and saying….wow, i was lost and didnt know it. i thought i was fine. boy
, was i wrong. we better tell everyone we know.
thats how it is, believe it or not.
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Thank you Bosco. It is, of course, possible that God operates at random like this and condemns most of his creation to everlasting torment. But if so, who would want to be with such a cruel, capricious and ugly being? Where is the love in a god who operates as you just described? We are told God is love and loved us first. Yet your god seems not to care and to be very far from love. Why did Jesus die, Bosco, if being saved is random?
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its a choice. a man will serve one master, either god or satan. its not up to me.
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No, you said that it just came to you. You made no choice.
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well, i was feeling the need to do something for god. so, i joined the choir. that should do it. i wasnt a bad person. you know, i just liked to get out of my mind high. lucky my bedroom was downstairs and in the rumpus room and no one came in there. other wise they would catch me comatose. god wanted me so he took me. i wanted to be on gods side but i didnt know about born again. and, i didnt want to be a holy roller. but he took me like he did good brother jacob.
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All of this I respect Bosco. But what gives rise to concern is your attitude to others who say, as sincerely as you do, that they believe in Christ.
What I cannot find in Scripture is a single example of a man (or woman) saying “I am saved” and assuming that was the end of it. St Paul himself wrote about “running the race” and “fighting the good fight”. What we do not find him saying is “I am saved and the rest of you aren’t”.
You seem to have an understanding of God which none of the prophets have had, nor most of the billions of Christians who have lived before you have. This opens up a number of possibilities.
In the binary world you like to inhabit, or seem to like, it makes you say what you say, which is that you are “saved” and most of the rest of us are not. The implications of this are immense. If you are right, God is a capricious creator who created billions of souls and who, on a whim, chooses a few at random for salvation. If that is true, why did Jesus have to die upon the Cross? If God can simply choose at random and most of us are bound for hell, why was there an Incarnation and Resurrection. I really would love to know your answer to this Bosco, and if you want to write a post on it, I will publish it here.
The second implication of the view you are putting forward is that despite the Bible telling us God is love, that love manifests itself in selecting random souls for salvation and consigning the rest of us to the flames. Is this really how you think of God, Bosco? Any human who behaved in this manner would be considered a tyrant and a monster. Yet, the God you write about does these things. Is that really what you believe? Or have you not thought through the implications of what you write, Bosco?
If you think I am trying to convert you to the Catholic Church you could not be more wrong. Only God can give that Grace to the open heart. But what I am trying to do is to suggest that you think through the implications of what you say.
The Internet is full of strange people with the oddest beliefs, but you have been here a long time Bosco, and it’s clear you have had a powerful experience which has changed your life. What I pray you will do is ask for more guidance. How has being “saved” changed your life? It would be interesting to know.
God be with you Bosco. I am not here to ridicule you, that, alas, would be easy, but it would not be Christian. There are, of course, moments when your attitude provokes others to ridicule you, and you seem almost to welcome such moments. I wonder if that is because it allow you not to think and to return to positions in which you are comfortable, but which have never been thought through?
God bless you, Bosco. I know many here think I am wasting my time, but we are all children of the Living God, and we are all sinners, so it seems only right to persevere.
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Great reply my friend, you took the words right from the tips of my fingers. No where in the Bible do we read of anyone being saved, of anyone having their salvation locked in because of a moment of conversion. All of the church fathers write of the great struggle, Paul probably puts it best when he speaks of the race. And they are backed up by the Saints, who throughout all of the ages consistently speak of their yoke, their burden, their cross which they carry with Christ and, in the case of the martyrs, all of the way to their death.
My suggestion to you Brother Bosco is that you read the Book of Job but do so with this in mind: Job is not being punished at random by God, his pains and tribulations are not from a simple bet between God and Satan. Rather, Job is comfortable in his faith, he is an upright man who really believes that because he does this and that according to the law, he is favoured by God and no harm can come of him. Not unlike many “born-again” Christians who walk around so confident in their membership among the elect (what you erroneously call “the Church”). The Book of Job is a story of the hubris of the religious man, you might get something out a reread of that book. As always blessing and prayers my friend, we all need it.
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Thank you, Eric, and that’s a great suggestion for our brother Bosco.
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Eric James – by the `hubris of the religious man’ I assume you refer to the pious discourses of Job’s three `friends’ which entirely miss the point?
While I feel you’re right about Bosco, bear in mind that there are good reasons from Scripture to back up some of his position. What I don’t like about him is his propensity to attack others. As they say in Sweden `det är inte farten som dödar; det är smällan’ (it’s not the fart that kills – it’s the smell).
John 3v16 does equate belief now with assurance of eternal life. Of course, we shift the goal posts – we have to decide what we understand by `belief’.
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thank you good brother eric. i have read job, many times. (*sheesh, he must think i was born yesterday)
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good brother chalcedon is having trouble with the fact that most people are going to wind up in the lake of fire. no one is more upset about that than me. like good brother chalcedon has admitted to…he doesnt believe what the bible says. jesus himself said the road to destruction is wide and many be there on and few on the road to salvation. good brother wants to blame me for this sad reality. look around you. everyone you see will most likely wake up in hell. you clutch some roses to your breast and sigh and say..”god is love” aahhhhh how nice.you look like a teresa of avila graven image. god wont send most people to hell, he loves you and died for you. thats all true. but since you dont believe what jesus said, you dont believe the great white throne judgment account given by jesus, seeing as how you dont believe him. a big sea of people are going to eternal damnation. oh, but if Bosco say it, it must be wrong. being wrong isnt a crime. not being born again is the biggest crime, and the victim of your crime is you.
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What I am having trouble with is the idea of this God who picks people at random for salvation. Why did a Jesus have to die on the Cross if salvation works like you say?
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Jesus was also very terse with the Apostles when they would ask about their place in the Kingdom or the events that would lead to the establishment of said Kingdom. I think there is a lot there because of that. Weird things happen when we concern ourselves with things only the Father knows. I do not know you very well Brother Bosco, but I get the impression you are fixated on those things which only the Father knows…is there a reason for that or am I off of the mark here?
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On Genesis, try this https://youtu.be/efWL43fbY08
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Chalcedon – this is another very good and very relevant post.
As you say, my remarks come after a reasonably long dialogue. To give some idea of what I mean to Audre: my text for today – as usual when discussing the role of the church – is taken from 1 John 2v27(a)
`As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.’
I believe that this is true of all of us who are in Him. Our position `in Him’ is written on our hearts and minds; the law of love and basic moral principles which guide the life of the believer are set there through the Holy Spirit and `the anointing we received’.
On this I base everything that I expect to see within a church fellowship – there should be an assumption that we are dealing with people who have this anointing and that, following 1 Peter 2v9, we are a `royal priesthood’ (that is all of us who are `in Him’),
Of course, although we have the teaching at some sort of intuitive level, it is a great blessing to hear it expressed explicitly. Some people have a gift for doing this and others do not. That is the role of the teaching elders.
There should be a basic assumption that those who claim to be `in Him’ really are `in Him’ unless something absolutely blatant occurs; I am very uneasy about the situation where `the church’ sees its role as some sort of policeman.
Two examples, one Catholic and one Protestant. For the first, my wife told me about a couple in the village she came from, one of them was a divorcee (following a marriage where nobody would really blame him for the divorce) who were denied communion at the village church (yet, inexplicably to my wife, they nevertheless went along anyway).
For sacraments, I see there is a command `do not eat or drink in an unworthy manner’, but aren’t we supposed to police ourselves on this? After all, Judas took the bread and wine and Jesus gave it to him, knowing full well what was in his heart and mind. This links to a post Chalcedon put up a few weeks ago where he was in favour of Baptism even if the parents never darkened the doors of a church.
The other example – a very good friend of mine who died of lung cancer many years ago. He smoked a pipe – and he also attended a Brethern meeting hall. The others in the fellowship were concerned about this, so in their Brethern way they appointed someone to talk to him about it. The conversation went roughly as follows; `Brother, you know that the apostle would not approve of what you are doing.’ To which my friend answered, `And the apostle would be right. But you see, brother, I have fallen.’
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It is clear that the Church needs to be on guard and to help in cases where individuals are going wrong in some way, but that has to be done in love. We are in substantial agreement. If you can bear it, look at Bosco’s recent long comment about being saved; I’d be interested in your take on it.
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Chalcedon – I’ll give my take on the Bosco post later. It is somewhat rambling and not completely easy to extract the points he is trying to make. Also, I should do some work this morning so that I feel `virtuous’.
In general with Bosco – he says one thing about himself, but there really is no evidence of it – if he really is saved, where is the `fruit of the Spirit’? Also – I’m not so sure that God is as quick to throw people into the lake of fire as Bosco supposes …….
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Thanks, Jock. I have posed some genuine questions- let us see if he answers.
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Paul offers a lot of insight with this in his two letters to the Church in Corinth. He speaks of the redemptive nature of church punishment, that even though someone who has broken away causes pain and resentment, the church must always be open to welcoming the person back into the fold. Paul also calls us to rebuke our Christian brothers and to ensure that we are all in a state worthy to participate in the Eucharist. This is directly related to Christ’s words regarding making amends without our brothers and sisters before offering our prayer and sacrifice. Paul teaches so much in his letters to the Church in Corinth because while they are powerful in his rebukes, they are gentile and kind in their approach. Like a father rebuking his children but also using the moment as a teaching moment that is relevant for life. That is a model for our church leaders in dealing with naughty congregations like the Church in Corinth.
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Eric James – I feel that everybody approves of the `theoretical’ considerations in Paul’s letters, but the problem is (of course) how it works in practise.
(Actually – not everyone agrees with this. My own father – who is a Christian – says that he finds much more insight into human interaction in the novels of Thomas Hardy than he does from Paul’s letters).
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OK – I’ll give my take on Bosco’s comment.
I’d say that I disagree with him crucially on what he says about people who do not know that they are saved (he seems to indicate that therefore they are not and that they are therefore destined for the lake of fire).
His first point, `the church’ is the collection of those who are `saved’ is something I would agree with. For him, `saved’ means `saved from the wrath of God’, yes, but there is a missing piece here; saved for what purpose? And how does the Holy Spirit transform a person?
He clearly didn’t like the church he was attending; he tells us that as his parting shot, he got up and told them that they weren’t saved and that they should repent. I would need to know more about the situation and the Rev Galloway whom he mentions, but I can sympathise with it; sometimes a `church’ fellowship very much does feel like that.
I believe that I am saved, in the sense that I have full assurance that I go to heaven when I pass from this life to the next, so I guess I am one of the very few readers who hasn’t made the statement that Bosco has seen from almost everybody here (I have never made such a statement). What he writes next seems wrong, ` you’re not saved if you aren’t sure’ and after this it degenerates into some sort of rant which seems to attack a straw man – some vision of Catholicism which most Catholics here probably do not recognise as Catholicism.
There are key portions of Scripture, particularly in the New Testament, that do explicitly give us assurance that we are saved. For example, John 3v16 – if you believe, then you really have passed from death to life. Some people who believe on him can’t seem to grasp the fact that they have made this transition. Doesn’t mean that they are not saved. As far as I am concerned, this does hamper their witness. If you’re not sure that you are saved, then this should be your biggest problem; if you are sure you are saved, then you have the freedom `in Him’ to concentrate on the mission (hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven).
On questions of who is `in’ and who is `out’, I am guided by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus from Luke’s gospel, where Lazarus was `in’, while the rich man was `out’. If we consider the transaction between the rich man and the angel, at no point does he indicate that he hungers and thirsts for righteousness; at no point does he indicate that he actively wants the heavenly life and that he is keen on serving the Living God. He indicates that he doesn’t particularly enjoy where he is and this seems to be his only motivation for trying to escape. Also, his motivation for warning others is negative. At no point does he indicate that he wants to convince them of the joys of serving the Living God; the motivation is escaping the torment of the situation in which he finds himself.
So my own `take’ on it is that anyone who truly wants to be rid of the old sinful nature, who welcomes the crucifixion of the `old man’ and wholeheartedly wants to serve the Living God will see life.
Scripture gives us good reason to suppose that there are many who, when presented with the true meaning of heaven and the heavenly life are luke warm towards it and do not really want it (although they probably want the torments of the rich man from the parable even less). And I infer that these people will not see life.
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First, many thanks Jock. I thought that you would be well-placed to comment on Bosco, and I am pleased that my intuition proved correct.
We all agree that the Church consists of those who have received Christ. For Catholics and Orthodox there are qualifications to that bald statement, and there is a differnence between those who are regarded as schismatic and those who are regarded as heretical; but the Catholic Church (unlike the Orthodox) does no insist on rebaptising converts, which says something about how it views those outside it, even if the more traditionalist souls among us would deplore the implication. For my part, well I am not in the business of saying “this Pope” or “that Pope” does not agree with my personal reading of the Catholic faith, so I am going to call him out. It’s part of the Church I just do not get, and I am genuinely concerned for those who take this view.
In terms of being “saved” yes, I was saved when I was baptised into Him as a baby. I am being saved as I live through the process of living a Christian life and following His commandments, and I hope, at the last to be saved by His merits. So for me, as for all Catholics and Orthodox, salvation is a process. We can lose it, which means I agree, Jock, that we can, through our lukewarmness reject what He offers us.
What concerns me about Boco’s view is that is can so easily degenerate into taking the view that as you are “saved” you can do whatever you like as Heaven is guaranteed.
The Catholic/Orthodox view seems to me to keep a healthy humility in regard to eternal life. It can, of course, as most healthy things can, become unhealthy and degenerate into a guilt-fest in which one’s view of oneself is so damning that it leads to a bad place.
If pressed, I would say that “yes, I am saved,” but if asked why I was not dancing about and proclaiming it, I’d say “because it’s a close run things and thanks to God!”
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Chalcedon – I don’t hold that you were `saved’ when you were baptised as a child. You are saved when you come to believe (which you do). I can’t put my finger on any experience or time when I can say before that I did not believe, but after that I did believe. All I can say is that I believe now. I can’t recall a time when I didn’t – except
perhaps for a brief period at the beginning of the 1990’s when the most evil people I had seen were committed church-goers and the best people (those with a social conscience) were anti-church (and anti-Christian) – so I began to ask myself serious questions and come up with negative answers. But – thanks be to God – I was brought back into the fold.
After we come to faith, there is an on-going process whereby we develop and mature in the faith so that, by the time we reach the heavenly life, we are fit for God’s service. Unlike the Salvation Army (whereby you are `saved’ when you give up drinking and you are `lost’ again when you start drinking again) I don’t think that salvation, if it is really there in the first place, can be lost. The Holy Spirit, dwelling within us, sees to that.
I believe that God offers salvation to everybody, but there are some (many perhaps) who do not really want it. They probably like the alternative even less, but they are not at all enthusiastic about the heavenly life.
If you really are `saved’, then you really can do whatever you like – because whatever you like will correspond to the divine will (and if whatever you like does not correspond to the divine will, then you aren’t saved).
Of course, the whole business is open to misinterpretation and can degenerate into the error you describe, but only among those who are fundamentally opposed to the righteousness of God and want to fool themselves into believing that they have escaped the fate of the `rich man’ from the `rich man and Lazarus’ parable.
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The letter to the Hebrews says it can be lost right there in the plain reading of the text:
“How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace” (Heb 10:29)
Naturally, those in Jock’s position will try to argue that “sanctified” is referring to Christ, but that’s just doesn’t make a whole of sense in the confines of who Christ is and the plain context of the particular statement talking about the one who profaned just prior to the concluding statement.
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Phillip – if you actually read what I have written you’ll see that I’ve dealt with (in my own way) the Hebrews passage that you pointed to (although I wouldn’t expect you to approve of it).
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Again, I did read your comment, but as you suggest, I don’t think it’s the plain reading of the text, as some of it like the term “outrage” just wouldn’t make sense in the plain reading of the text.
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Phillip – then you miss the point (which admittedly wasn’t clear since I didn’t address the Hebrews passage directly). From what I wrote, I believe that God does enlighten people, touch them with the Holy Spirit, and then they wholeheartedly reject it. There isn’t a contradiction here – such people were never saved in the first place – and there was always something about their heart and mind which wasn’t exactly keen on the heavenly life.
I do take into account the whole bible – including the letter to the Hebrews in matters of my faith – and you can rest assured that any text you come up with from Scripture is something I have read and incorporated.
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“has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified.” So, for your interpretation to be valid, you’d have to explain how that particular passage isn’t referring to the person to which its speaking and about Jesus, who you think needs to be sanctified. There’s no other figures in that statement. I’ve heard many try to do it and it’s simply a stretch.
He (the one who spurned the Son of God) was saved and then profaned the blood that sanctified or saved him. It could not be more clear. It says they were saved in the plain reading of the text! By who’s interpretation and authority do you say otherwise? You? What makes your interpreation, which isn’t the plain understanding of the basic language and grammar, any more valid than Bob down the street?
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Phillip – well, if it is so clear to you, then I shouldn’t bother trying to explain it.
But you continue to make the same error – imputing things that were not said, ` … about Jesus, who you think needs to be sanctified.’
I don’t discuss with people who put words into other peoples mouths and in so doing frankly tell lies.
I might have enjoyed a discussion about Hebrews with someone else.
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You just know deep down that when pressed on the issue here, there’s simply no way you can make that passage say anything other than someone who is saved can lose their salvation, it’s that simple.
I really just think you’re upset at the clarity of the particular passage, and when pressed about authority and how you can claim a passage you lash out call me liar.
Petty.
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You could have made your assertion, but instead opted for the ad hominem accusing me of being a liar, when my comment is merely an anticipation of your reply, which now it looks as though it was rightly headed off, as it forced you into an emotional retort and name calling.
In a discussion or debate, when you lose your cool, you lose the argument, as you didn’t add anything more.
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That’s an interesting view, Jock, and there are substantial areas of agreement. On the effect of baptism, if I had died as a baby I think I would have been saved by it. Yes, if you believe that assurance of salvation so confirms you to the Divine will that you commit no sin to offend God, I can see that point.
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Chalcedon – well, of course, we all know that believers continue to sin – this is the `wretched man’ of the end of Romans 7.
The `wretched man’ passage was written by a Christian and shows the Christian’s attitude towards his/her own sin and sinful nature.
I believe that everybody for whom this is true is saved (i.e. will see heaven and communion with God when they pass from this life to the next).
The problem is with those who, like Lot’s wife, aren’t exactly sure that they want to be renounce the pleasures of the sinful nature (and therefore, in the terminology of Paul, have not `died unto sin’.).
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Chalcedon – God bless you – and as far as I can see you are `in’ (whether you like it or not). I don’t really want to start with theoretical exegesis of texts, but I think we’ve all met people to whom Hebrews 6v4-6 applies (who seemed to be enthusiastic pillars of the church – but there was always a jingling jangling doubt) who then went wholesale in the other direction.
On the topic of `Church?’ – the issue of Church and Politics is an important one. As I indicated, for my `light reading’ recently I read Motlmann’s book `The Crucified God’ and I’d recommend the first six chapters most strongly to absolutely everybody. This really gave me very good insight into the workings of The Trinity – at least the first and second person of the Trinity.
His disappointing chapters were the last two – which is probably unfortunate, since this is probably what the whole book was supposed to be directed towards. The last chapter entitled `The Political Liberation of Man’.
In this, he seems to consider that `the Church’ has, or is (at least) supposed to have a political voice.
Now, while I believe that `the Church’ should equip us with a world-view that makes us politically responsible, I do get the impression that whenever `the Church’ has involved itself directly in politics, it has all gone horribly wrong and I’m not at all sure I like the situation that is developing here where the ruling political party and (some sections of) the Church seem to be `culo e camicia’ with each other.
So clearly faith does inform politics, but I get the impression that the result is usually unfortunate if `the Church’ sees itself as an organisation which is supposed to have a political voice.
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I am happy to be ‘in’ Jock, and a consciousness of the dangers of sin is no bad thing, as long as it does not lead down the route of too much guilt.
I do not think that the history of the involvement of the Church with the State shows anything other than what you have written here; it usually ends badly, even if it begins (as it often does not) with the best of intentions.
That said, the Church exists in a political world, and most attempts to ignore that have ended up in disaster.
Oddly, I think that the Anglicans found a way which worked for quite a long time, although latterly, not so much.
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to all my good brothers…the term saved wasnt used much. its a newer word. trinity wasnt used, but we use it. jesus liked to use the tern, born again. i use them interchangeably, if you have noticed.
i have never ever said someone was in fact going to hell because they arent born again at this moment. i have said a million times that as long as one is alive they can get saved. so, you say…what if a baby or a very young person are a aborigine dies never having had the chance to accept or reject jesus. it says in scripture(dont ask me where because i forgot) that the spirit comes to that soul and gives them the chance. personally, i dont see how anyone in the spirit would would say no, but their world is another reality, i guess, and they have the same ability to say they dont want it or believe it.
it never fails to get me in hot water when im asked to explain the difference between the saved and the unsaved. the unsaved have their religions and or their own way of salvation and who is Bosco to break the bad news to them.
running the race, fighting the good fight, working out salvation….these are things you do after you are born again. god doesnt give you 5% salvation…come back next week and he will give you 5% more. take catholic salvation. it wears off in a week and you have to come back and eat another cracker to renew it. i am not sure about other faith on how they dish out salvation. it seems membership is all they require. i use catholicism as a example because of its blatant use of rituals to make one have salvation, and it always wears off. and in the end, the faithful are to beg some virgin queen to pray for them as they go gentile into that good nite. obviously all the things to do didnt work. they still have to ask someone else to try and salvage their miserable godless souls. personally, i dont see how anybody would buy into that.
in response to no one being saved…not one word is there about being partially saved. no one has ever said being born again is a process. its a process to live out the faith everyday. paul says his mind is good but his flesh is wear. he had to war against the flesh. that is a process. but to think god hands out partial salvation is a indicator of how well you know jesus. it shows you are at zero. oh yes, but your religion says otherwise.that man with the big fish head hat told me not to worry, just keep eating crackers out of his hand, like a pigeon in the park, and you might be saved.
Ephesians says at the sound of the trumpet the dead in christ will rise first, and the we who are alive will rise up in the air to meet the lord and ever be with him. no mention of anyone partially saved being left behind.
the bible say the born again are covered in the blood of christ, so god only sees the righteousness of christ when he looks at the saved. the religiuous in here dont believe that. they say there are holes in the covering, or only partial covering, or it wears off when we bath, or something along those lines. it shows you have no faith in christ, neither do you believe any of his words. you just give him lip service as your costume holyman waves the bible around during the show, then reads a passage or two, not believing one gat damned word of it.
the saved are covered in the blood of christ, no matter how much that pisses you religious folks off.
have a nice day (;-D
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