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Sometimes things are just puzzling.
You explain to someone that no one is worshipping images and that they are aids to worship and they respond “how does a crown on a baby help worship christ?” All one can do is say “no one is worshipping the image of the baby with a crown on it” and leave it there, adding that in the presence of either invincible ignorance or sheer refusal to read what is written, there is nothing more that can be done.
When someone writes:
but if i were smart and listened to the cathols that i would know that god really said to make as many statues and images as possible and get down on my knees face first to the ground befor them
all one can do is to be sad that someone who claims to be “saved” resorts to lies, for make no mistake, there is no Catholic who has ever told anyone to make as many images of statues as possible or to worship them. The motives that drive someone to make a statement they must know to be palpably false may be various, but they cannot be of Christ.
There are those here who ask why it is worth persevering with those such as Bosco who manifestly act in ill-faith? Part of the answer is that their misunderstandings are common ones. The extent of the problem is sometimes amazing.
So when Bosco writes: “first, mary didnt give her permission to have the baby, neither was she asked,” he commits the most dreadful blasphemy, in effect accusing God of rape. This point has been answered at length here. Quite how anyone can believe that God is a rapist and still claim to worship Him passes belief. But Bosco is almost irrelevant here, it is his methodology, which is common, which is of wider concern.
Although much of the debate about images concerns art, at root it concerns making anything an idol, and the central problem with the sort of mentality exemplified by Bosco is that it makes the Bible an idol. The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is not self-defining. There is no “contents” page to it, despite Bosco’s statement: “hi good brother. the books in the bible are listed in the table of contents.” It was the Church which decided which books were to be included as “scripture”, and if we take that seriously, to imply that the Church is not authorised to know how to read what it tells us is “scripture” is, to put it mildly, illogical. We see the same lack of logic here:
“as you admit mary is a handmaid of the lord. one of the lowest positions someone could have. how many handmaids are given golden crowns in jolly old england?”
As an exercise in missing the point, this is superb. What is it we read in the Magnificat?
My soul magnifies the Lord
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;
Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid;
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed
The whole point is that, from the beginning of the Incarnation, God confounds our expectations. It is not one of the mighty of this earth whom He chooses to be the mother of Jesus, but a lowly maiden; it is not some aristocrat who is the finest of us all, it is Mary of Nazareth.
What Bosco’s method or reasoning shows, alas, is where we can end up if we think that we are the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Here, some wise words from Austin Farrer are helpful: “We cannot hear the voice of God in Christ’s words … unless we have an ear attuned.” We can read the text, we can read the commentaries, we can read the scholarship, but as Farrer reminds us: “there is still something to be done, and that is the most important thing of all: to use our spiritual ears.”
That does not equate to “when we read the text God inspires us to understand it correctly.” God founded a Church and it is through that Church, that is through the whole organised body of Christian minds down the ages to help guide us aright. This is an important point. Biblolatry ties itself into knots trying to say that St Luke’s dates or St Paul’s views on astronomy are beyond criticism, or that the world really was created in six days, as though these are the things that matter and as though, if they are not literally true, all else collapses. It does not matter, God teaches us those things necessary for our salvation in spite of any human imperfections in the text as we have received it.
The idea of inspiration does not mean mean that every word is guaranteed, but it does mean that the Church recognises what is needful for our salvation. There is no part of Scripture that does not illuminate God’s Word to us, but not all parts are equally important. We read aright through the Tradition of the Church, and unless our reasoning faculties work with that, as well as with our own ear of faith attuned to God’s voice, what we think we are taking out of the text is usually little more than we put in. We can listen to the voice of God as it comes to us through His Church with the best tuning we have and the best understanding of which we are capable. Or we can decide we know it all via some unmediated, privileged understanding. This last has a name, Gnosticism. Those who need to look it up will not, I suspect, accept they are Gnostics.
In his controversial Regensburg lecture Pope Benedict XVI pointed out that God, as mainstream Islam understood Him to be, was unconstrained by Reason and did whatever it was He wanted to do whenever He wanted to do it. Some Protestant notions of God, such as the non-requirement of Mary to give her consent at the Annunciation, seem to have a similar view of the Divinity. That is, they see it as unfettered power and worship it because they would rather be on its good side than on its angry one.
A Catholic view, though, would be that while Divine Omnipotence cannot be constrained by anything external to itself things like Reason and Love form part of its essence and so God could no more act contrary to Reason or Love than He could make a square circle or an even odd number. It would be unreasonable to punish people for things they could not avoid doing and it would be unloving to compel people to make huge self-sacrifices against their will. It is not primarily the power of God that should inspire us to praise and worship Him but rather His reason-governed Love.
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That is very helpful indeed – many thanks!
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hi good brother detached, how you doin? so god doesnt do anything outside of reason, like making an axe head float on water, of raising a dead person. detached is a good name. so god wouldnt make someone do something they dont want to do, like jonas. he flat out refused to go to nineva, so god had a giant fish grab him and spit him out at nineva. good brother detached, i dont know where you get your ideas about god. it certainly isnt from the bible.
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It is not contrary to reason that the Creator of the laws of the universe has the power to suspend them if He wishes do do so. Creation is subject to the Creator the Creator is not subject to Creation. Reason and Love are not created objects but essential properties of the Divine One. As for Jonah the Lord certainly nudged him towards making a decision to cooperate with His purposes but ultimately as Jonah 3:3 makes clear it was his free decision to obey, not a compulsive force making him into an automaton, that resulted in Jonah going to Nineveh and preaching.
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hi good brother.
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish’s belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
that little nudge was enough to change good brother jonas mind.
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they are aids to worship and they respond “how does a crown on a baby help worship christ?” All one can do is say “no one is worshipping the image of the baby with a crown on it” and leave it there
i guess you are referring to me, bosco. yes, i said how does a crown help worship christ. i never once accused anyone of worshiping any image. i dont know where you got that from. you are probably gun shy because lots of bubble head christians accuse cathols of worshiping statues. it would be imbecilic of me to accuse anyone in here of that.
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Bosco, do you read what you write? You quote yourself saying ‘how does a crown in a baby help worship Christ?’ and then say “I never once accused any one of worshipping an image.” You deny in the second quotation what you stated in the first. You are, in your own word, ‘imbecilic’.
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yes, i said in worship of christ.
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8 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
lets look at this;
9 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
wait a minute. shes the all, knowing queen of heaven. why is she puzzled at the saying? must be some mistake.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
there must be some mistake. gabe forgot to ask mary if she was up for this. as hard as i try, i just dont see gabe asking marys permission. well, maybe its just me.
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
gabe said..the holy ghost shall come upon thee. wait a minute. something is missing. gabe forgot to ask mary if it ok to concieve this child. well, when the smoke cleared, mary was just told she was gonna have this child.
4 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
seems the all knowing all powerful virgin queen of heaven and earth dont believe gods messenger.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
seems that the writers of the bible know the difference between brother and cousin.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible
nothing is impossible with god. there goes good brother detacheds theology of god cant do certain things.
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I fear for you, Bosco, I really do. No one has ever claimed that in her mortal life Mary was omniscient, so why even ask why she did not know things in her mortal life. She consents, but oddly your quotation stops before Luke 1:18. If you want to believe God is a rapist, then of course, you must do so – and take the eternal consequences.
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well, you explained that the crown on marys head in the pictures meant that later on she would be queen, not then. well, it is an explanation. ill accept that.
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there is no Catholic who has ever told anyone to make as many images of statues as possible or to worship them. The motives that drive someone to make a statement they must know to be palpably false may be various, but they cannot be of Christ.
i guess you are referring to me good brother. lets look at what i said;
but if i were smart and listened to the cathols that i would know that god really said to make as many statues and images as possible and get down on my knees face first to the ground befor them
i dont see the word worship in my earth shaking comment. do you? you accuse me falsely of saying someone worships the statue. you shouldnt had outta accuse people falsely. it shows you arent of god (;-D
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Yes, your first sentence talks about worshipping images. As I say, I don’t think your brain and what you write are connected at all.
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ah, i see now. you think when i say bow befor the image i mean worshiping it. i already know that people are bowing to who the statue represents. even in my early yrs i figured they werent worshiping the statue. modern western man is beyond that.
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It was the Church which decided which books were to be included as “scripture”, and if we take that seriously, to imply that the Church is not authorised to know how to read what it tells us is “scripture” is, to put it mildly, illogical. We see the same lack of logic here:
the church decided which books. who is the church. was it every man jack who was catholic decided? was it a small group? where is this church who made the decision?
are they still here? you talk like they are still here. i get this all the time. the church knows what the bible means. what is the church? is it a computer? the ones who put the bible together have been dead and buried for 1700 plus yrs.
not that this is important. i just would like for someone to tell me how this church talks and what or who it is. and how did the same church live 1700 yrs. i dont asknfor much
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The Church which made that decision Bosco is the Church Jesus founded and is here today. What it is not, is you.
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good brother, here is a comment from a devout catholic. when the CC claims it has exclusive rights to knowledge of the bible and copyright and is responsible for giving mankind gods word, , this is the mindset you get from its members;
Steve
27 minutes ago
@Kevin HM8404 Correction, we do not have just a book. We are Catholic, so we do not have just the Bible. We also have the Magisterium and Tradition. The Catholic Church wrote the Bible, the Bible came from the Catholic Church over 150 years after it was found by God Himself. This is why the Catholic Church is superior to the Bible, we wrote and interpret it, it does not write nor interpret the Catholic Church.
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I do wonder if you understand what you read. Where does it say it has copyright? It says what is true, it was the Church which came first. Which Bible, Bosco, did St Mark read? Which Bible did St Paul read? Who decided what they wrote was scripture?
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jesus and the apostles read the old testament. thats all there was. well, jesus didnt have to read it. he is the old testament.
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You still refuse to answer my question. Where did the New Testament get decided?
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good brother, i dont know who decided the new test. i know the CC or its members like to take the credit. if the early church fathers put them together, fine with me. if they didnt, fine with me. god made it happen whoever put it together.
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That’s a cop-out Bosco. The early Church Fathers believe as I believe and as the Church believes. They do not agree with you.
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Chalcedon – is this really the direction you want your blog to take? Your choice.
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whats the matter good brother jock? me and my good brother chalcedon are having a civil debate. you dont mind do you?
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I think he thinks I am wasting my time as you never read or think about what is being said to you. The evidence appears to be on his side so far. Next move is yours. If you continue to play dumb, I will assume you are dumb and leave you to it.
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youre not wasting time. i enjoy talking with you. it makes me put my thoughts together.
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You have thoughts, dear brother? When did these start?
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You can be sure they did not last!
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Yep – that’s what he thinks.
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No, this is my last interaction with him. After this, he can whistle. He may, after all, be good at that.
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good brother chalcedon, you said you would answer my comment if i answered your points. so i answered all your points and your response is…i dont want to talk to bosco anymore. well, thats easier than saying the bible doesnt mean what it says. you used to be able to say that. maybe your getting alittle timid in your advanced yrs.
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If you think by evading my points you answered them, think again. The point is simple. We know that the NT is scripture because the Church decided it. You hold the illogical view that the Church which told us what Scripture is does not know how to read it, where a dumb schmuck like you does.
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i resemble that remark. i just take scripture at face value. the holy ghost gave the bible to all ppl to understand.
and i dont remember evading your points if i missed some id be glad to try to address them. to each man an answer.
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So, let’s get this straight. By what means did the Holy Ghost give the Bible to the people? This is the point you keep evading.
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oops, i forgot the most controversial line of them all. my mistake;
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
let it be unto me according to thy word. now, she was already told she was going to have this child. so mary had no choice but to say, so it is written, so let it be done.
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