My thanks to the many who replied positively to yesterday’s post, and in the spirit of that, and as an homage to Jessica, I want to begin the next eight years with a topic which risks taking us back to polemical times, but in a way which invites, I hope, a more considered response. I would add that this is not me advocating any change in my own church, whose position seems clear except to those who don’t like that position. Here goes.
Toward the end of St Paul’s letter to the Romans (and yes, I know that there are those who think it wasn’t by St Paul, but the Church, and Tradition do, and that does it for me) is this salutation:
7 Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
At least that’s what the Douay-Rheims translation says, as does the American Standard version and the New Life version. The assumption is that this is a male name, athough scholars have been unable to provide any other examples of the name “Junias;” there are numerous examples of the female name, “Junia.” In his homily on Romans, Ambrosiaster, who was writing in the second half of the fourth century wrote:
“Think how great the devotion of this woman Junia might have been that she should be worthy to be called an Apostle!”
Professor Moo, in his great commentary on Romans offers a typically balanced view:
“Paul’s mention of nine women in this list reminds us (if we needed the reminder) that women played an important role in the early church … Ministry in the early church was never confined to men; these greetings and other similar passages show that women engaged in ministries that were as important as those of men. We have created many problems for ourselves by confining ‘ministry’ to what certain full-time Christian workers do. But it is important that we do not overinterpret this evidence either, for nothing Paul says … conflicts with limitations on some kinds of women’s ministry with respect to men such as I think are suggested by 1 Tim. 2:8-15 and other texts.” (Douglas J Moo, New International Commentary (1996)).
The idea that the name “Junias” was to be preferred to the reading “Junia” was a twentieth century phenomenon, based on the assumption that since an “apostle” had to be male, “Junias” had to be the correct reading. The probability that the name is “Junia” and therefore a woman, has, naturally enough, led some modern scholars to argue that this supports the idea of women as priests. That may be as much a case of reading into the text what one wants to read, as the older idea that “Junia” was not a possible reading because a woman could not have been an apostle.
If we assume that “Apostle” is always a position of authoritative leadership, then the case for a female priesthood is certaily strengthened; but must it be read that way? Often Paul uses the word to denote a messenger or emissary (1 Cor. 15:5,7; 1 Cor. 9:5-6; Gal 2:9), and that may be the case here. Just because scholars in the last century went out of their way to insist the name was male because a woman could not be an “apostle’, that is no reason we should do the same the other way – understandable as that temptation might be. (Chapter 9 of Epp, Junia).
One of the problems, or so it seems to me, is that this issue gets swallowed up in an agenda-driven way. On the one hand a swift resort to a version of what Professor Moo has written, which emphasises the other possibilities, minimising the possibility of Junia being an Apostle in the strongest sense of that word. On the other, a ready resort to the claim that it can only be read in this sense seems unwise.
At this point the argument can get taken up with either explaining away or emphasising 1. Tim 2 11-15, 1 Cor 11: 2-16, 1 Cor 14:34-35, and in the literature it is easy to discern why one choice or the other is made. It is important here to emphasise that such discussions take us into the wider realm of how we read Scripture, and how tradition should weigh in the balance. What cannot be in doubt is that for much of the history of Christianity women have not had a sacramental ministry, whatever may, or may not have been the case with the “Apostle” Junia.
If Junia and other women were “Apostles” in the stronger sense of the word then would it make a difference? Well, it would tend against the argument that Jesus chose only men, not least because we know there were many women followers and He appeared first to a woman, but I really don’t want to go down that route here, not least because the chance of it not provoking people is zero. But it is worth reflecting on the experience of the one big communion which has had women priests and bishops, the Anglicans. There, I think many who were against the idea for the usual reasons would say they have found the contribution of their new colleagues invaluable and that women have added a dimension to ministry which, perhaps, Junia would have recognised. Certainly, in my own dealings with women priests, I have been nothing but impressed by what they bring to their vocation, and without their contribution things would be poorer. At that point, I shall stop and await comment.
I personally read this text as Junia being a female church planter (missionary meaning of Apostle). She may have been a widow or unmarried or she could have been married or part of a missionary team. The text isn’t clear, but this reading seems consonant and does not threaten Paul’s general dicta about women in teaching positions, etc.
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Also, “to be sent” as on a mission. The Catholic Mass closes with ‘ite missa est’. All are apostles in that sense. But there was not a common name for what the original 12 were given at the Last Supper in terms of an office and mission. In modern parlance the Catholic Church would probably be fine with calling them the original bishops of the Church or shepherds of the flocks.
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It is certainly a possible interpretation.
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Speaking of tedium . . .
It seems a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
We have an 800 lb. gorilla in the room: called the tradition of the Church. Before, the 20th century I am not aware of any women in any denomination that was female, even amongst the newer (mainstream) Protestants who did not claim Apostolicity for the preacher who read and gave the sermons. It was Christian tradition . . . even amongst the split between East and West.
So, if I were a lawyer, I would have the jury take into account the evidence that we actually see. For if this is not as it appears then we cannot believe our eyes as the Christians have fabricated a hoax on all of mankind for 2,000 years and are co-conspirators with all the other Christian denominations throughout the years. In which case, nothing of what they teach and proclaim has any relevance since if proven a liar in one instance then why take the Church at its word by throwing out its traditions?
And if being seen after His resurrection by a woman is proof of an apostolic ministry given to both men and women, then where were they during the Last Supper when Christ said to ONLY those present, “Do this in remembrance of me.”?
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Chalcedon – well, first: surely you would not base a major church doctrine on whether or not Junia is a boy’s name or a girl’s name. This is surely one of the most irrelevant points in the whole of Scripture for anything at all.
Second – to alleviate Scoop’s ignorance – the Salvation Army was founded in 1865 and, right from the beginning, one of the founding principles was absolute equality. My mother, as a young girl, went along to the Salvation Army Sunday school during the late 1940’s / early 1950’s and to have both a man and a woman running the show seemed absolutely normal. She was very surprised when she went to university (in the late 1950’s) and discovered that some churches were not like that and that some churches actually seemed to discriminate.
As for me – I think you’re addressing the wrong problem here. You could start by asking `what is the role of the church in a believer’s life?’ and then go on to the question `what is the function of a priest / pastor within the church (and in the life of a believer)’, etc …..
This issue was discussed on this blog before. Back then, I pointed out Calvin’s view (by the way – I’m not a Calvinist – I don’t believe in burning heretics at the stake as Calvin did), where he shows that Paul’s prohibition of women is based on what is `seemly’; it looks like a societal thing. In the time of Paul (and also Calvin) you would never have a woman as (say) Prime Minister, while nowadays we’ve had women successfully taking positions as government ministers. Following Calvin’s argument to its logical conclusion, it would be quite all right to have women pastors nowadays.
But, before considering this issue, you’re probably better off firstly considering what the role of the priest/pastor should be within the church and secondly how this translates into their involvement in the life of the faithful.
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I’m not ignorant of that Jock. I thought it went without saying that among the established denominations, there was unity of thought until about the 20th century (2000 years later).
The Catholic way of looking at the priest and the Church is simplicity itself. The priest acts in the person of Christ and the supernatural Church represents the Bride of Christ. The visible Church is filled with the “Children of Christ and the Church”. The Church is therefore fecund; creating many Children of God. There is a balance here which makes our homes a type of Church as well; husband as head, wife as the beloved.
So for a Catholic to think that it is OK for a woman to play the part of Christ and the Church which is known to us via scripture as the Bride of Christ is a rather modern idea that same sex attraction is normal as would be lesbianism or transgenderism. Therefore, in the new enlightened feminist Church I suppose these transgressions to natural law are now completely wrong.
There was a balance and there should always be. Every woman should be looked upon as a type for the Bride of Christ and every male should be looked upon as those who should rightly aspire to show their love for the Bride by attending to Her as Christ would. Women cannot represent both the Bride and Christ anymore than the Bride could be looked upon as male and attended to by a man who is acting in the person of Christ. It makes no sense.
If anything feminism is the better part of this traditional way of looking at things. For our very souls are all considered to be feminine. It is the basis of our spirituality which allows us to have as our spiritual head Christ as the active head for our lives and to represent His love for each of us in a similar way as He attends to His Bride the Church.
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Thanks Scoop – very informative. I now see that it is all to do with fornication and lesbianism. Makes perfect sense.
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I never even mention fornication. Maybe you should read what I wrote again.
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No need to read it again – I read it the first time.
True – fornication wasn’t mentioned explicitly. Lesbianism was – so was transgenderism.
I’d be surprised if William Booth thought that, 155 years later, someone would accuse him of introducing transgenderism into the church.
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“. . . God created them male and female.” They are not synonymous.
“And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth . . .”
Can this not be applied to the idea of raising up spiritual children, Jock? But is symbolism useless and without merit for teaching concepts in a way that should be so apparent from natural law that there is no missing it regardless of education?
Did God make a mistake and 2000 years of tradition perpetrate a hoax? I think this is question that folks she spend more time on. Not trying to twist it into meaning that Christ was only a pawn in the hands of a particular PC way of thinking a particular culture and particular point in time and therefore can be relegated to the rubbish pile.
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Scoop – Your problem is with the statement `the priest acts in the person of Christ’ and you build on this statement. Such a starting point is (of course) alien to me. Much more importantly, in those verses of Paul where he does touch upon the subject and where he does make it clear that he is negative about women taking on certain roles, he never once states that the priest acts in the person of Christ. Much more importantly, he never once gives this as the reason why he is negative about women in the ministry.
And whatever else you say about `the priest acts in the person of Christ’, this is unnatural, so it’s difficult to see how you can both bring this and at the same time bring `natural law’ into the argument.
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It doesn’t bother me what people who left the Catholic Church think of the idea of a priest acting in the Person of Christ at all . . . although until the 20th century none of these folks broke with that tradition by embracing a feminine clergy.
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We, as Catholics, take the words of Christ very literally: He speaks to men which he chose and gathered and told them to “Do this in memory of me”. Now what the “do this” is regarding is pretty plain. In other words they were to “do” what Christ ‘did’ and thereby it is obvious that they are acting the person of Christ when they do what He did that night.
But others abandoned this and as a Protestant I understand your change though I do wonder why you have very recently changed the traditions that you still held to.
And please don’t tell me the Salvation Army story again. Last time I looked, they are simply a non-denominational organization and not a Church per se. I am talking about the main branches of Christianity that developed and are still major denominations in the world.They are all throwing out this tradition; but that does not make it right.
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… they may not be a `church’ as you understand it. Nevertheless, they held services, ran Sunday schools, etc ….. The other main `denomination’ (which you probably don’t regard as a denomination) was the `Faith Mission’ which took exactly the same view as the Salvation Army on this matter.
As for `acting in the person’ what you write here simply doesn’t make sense. You mean that when people take the communion bread and wine they are `acting in the person of Christ’?
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I think this is a useful approach, Jock. The Junia thing interested me because of the sudden twentieth century fashion for saying it was Junias and male.
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Isn’t that secondary to the obvious though, John? JPII told us what we are to believe in this matter. Also this is one of the main arguments that theologians might use:
“In scholastic terminology, we talk about potency and act. Something must have a potency or disposition for something in order to make it actual. For example, a fish has the capacity to breathe underwater without air tanks for hours at a time but humans do not. A woman has the potency to be pregnant but a man does not. Likewise, a man has the potency to be ordained a presbyter but a woman does not. Nothing any of us could do would give women that capacity.” __ https://www.ncregister.com/blog/frmatthew/john-paul-ii-definitively-said-no-to-women-priests
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Bosco – where are you when we need you???????
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If you accept your premise, of course it follows. But why did the translators of the Douay-Rheims into English change the ancient tradition that The name was Junia to a male name otherwise unknown to history?
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We will never know. Just as we will never know the use of the word apostle that was used. It may have only been used to prevent discussions such as this which were already decided by the Church when heretics experimented with women priests and they were summarily dismissed as heretics. They soon disappeared until the 20th century decided that this was important when what is important is the very structure of the parts of the Church that Christ Himself gave us. Those things are unchangeable and even the Church has not the authority to change them.
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Until the twenty century the universal consensus was that the name was feminine, so I am not sure that works. The hope that you can stop people thinking seems rather sad.
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I’m just of the opinion that people need not overthink the teachings of the Church. They have experts that have spanned the centuries and if I believe the indefectibility of the Church and that She will be the instrument for our salvation then her traditions and teachings which are viewed as de facto are not a problem for us. Time Is better spent in obedience than in questioning that which is settled doctrine or tradition.
There are many open areas for research which are not instituted by Christ and spoken of by St. Paul in an unambiguous manner. Why drag this 20th century ambiguity into a discussion which is futile and questioning the writers of the Douay when you have no idea how much information they may have examined in the decision they made. Even Jerome had a problem with epiousios as you know. So in one place he says daily bread and in the other he uses super-substantial bread to cover both bases. It makes no difference as long as we understand the type of bread that is being said in the Our Father. But the word is coined and therefore a mystery since it appears nowhere else than in the Bible. It would have helped if we had the original prayer in the original language thet Christ spoke and it seems, at least to me, that the super substantial translation relates this better than does daily bread which is only a redundant phrase. But am I going to research or dig into the undiggable mind of Jerome or will they ever find what words were really said and why they were translated the way they were? No. So what are we doing except to kick around musings without any definitive end to those questions. If that is rather sad to you it is rather sad to me that the addition of an “s” is not a very important argument nor a definitive proof of anything at all. In other words it turns into a waste of time.
A better reflection is whether our sacraments would be valid if the person offering it is incapable of receiving the power of the bishop during ordination. Is it even possible? According to those who helped JPII in his evaluation are you sure that they did not have to wade through these things about Junia (s) as well? Their conclusion is the conclusion of the Church which was dependent upon the information they have. Case closed as far as I am concerned.
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Until the twentieth century there was universal agreement that the name was Junia and she was female. I think it is legitimate to wonder why translators saw fit to change that name to one otherwise unknown. It would say very little good about a Church is its only response to new developments was “do this because we say so.”
What I genuinely find curious is how many Catholics who defended St JPII against liberal assaults by reminding people he was the Pope, take offence when liberals turn that argument back on then over Pope Francis. It is almost as though they consider themselves the arbiter of who is and is not fit to be Pope. That, surely, is the most Protestant thing ever?
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To the last point, that is not the many arguments that are used.
To the first, then what meaning was attributed and accepted by the Church regarding the meaning of the word apostle as written in the ancient texts?
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The fact that some thought it necessary to fabricate a male name for Junia shows us what making assumptions can do even to the best of men.
Of course, our Church takes the view it does and always has, there is no record in the Latin Rite Church of women being in positions of authority. The argument used to support it was that Jesus only chose men and only men had been Apostles, which, when one delves deeper, is something of a circular argument – hence the assumption that Junia had to be a man called Junias. Not sure that reasoning is as solid as an argument.
The real argument is that the Latin Church has never recognised a ministerial position for women. It’s a perfectly defensible point. I suspect Jock’s reaction to the argument that the priest represents Christ is not uncommon in a non-sacramental age. I don’t agree with him, but that does not mean that his argument does not have more traction with the general public than ours.
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Well, the traction of truth in the general public or among a host of fellow pew sitters is not important to me. What is important is that our own clergy has never taught faith since the burned the catechisms and books used to educate the Catholic children and the converts to the faith. That they would not correct their own flocks concerning Church teaching and fail them, at the risk of their souls is unconscionable. When 80% of the parishioners contracept and receive Communion from their own hands is on them. That another 80% do not believe in the Real Presence is on their shoulders as well. I see no push to right these wrongs. Instead they celebrate diversity in everything . . . including doctrine. What is wrong with this picture?
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I can see where you are coming from Scoop. My one question is whether you are not at risk of saying that most of the Church is not Catholic in the same sense as yourself.
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Then you are projecting something upon what I write that I never intended. In fact, this is the most unCatholic I have felt since I became a Catholic some 30 years ago. With the confusion and smoke covering the Catholic world it Is hard to know what the Church believes (today). Even morality is up for grabs. I can no longer do an examen of conscience in such an atmosphere as it seems to be whatever I did according to my conscience is fine. This is the most screwed up conglomeration of differing ideas, teachings and such I have ever seen. It has become so thoroughly political (most of them far from my political leanings) that this becomes the highest level of being a Catholic in good standing. I was never as challenged by such confusion as today. If I had not joined the Church when I did, I would not recognize it as the Church that I wanted to be a member.
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Chalcedon – I begin to see why it is such a major issue.
Just imagine if an n was stuck on the end of `Norma’ so that in future generations people imagined that Bellini’s opera was actually entitled `Norman’ instead.
You wouldn’t be able to have Maria Callas in the lead role, but instead you’d have to have somebody like Bryn Terfel, with a deep bass voice.
This might cause a serious problem at the beginning of the second act, where it is revealed that Norman has, in fact, given birth to two sons – but perhaps we had better not go down this route.
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I suspect that might lead to cancellation all round, Jock.
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The history of Protestants flirting with women in ministry is not that interesting to me as they no longer were using Christ’s powers given to the twelve to consecrate the Sacrament of Sacraments, the Eucharist. Also of little interest to me are the 2nd and 3rd century flirtations with this idea as they were unanimously condemned as heretics in their own time. The Eastern and Western Churches have never tried to undo what Christ instituted and it would be heresy for them to do so. In fact, valid sacraments would cease to be valid sacraments but empty symbols because they are not a visible representation of a spiritual reality.
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`History of Protestants flirting with women’
How about the history of Catholic priests flirting with men? Is that of interest to you?
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A cheap cutting off of the words of the sentence Jock, even for your
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For Catholics: What don’t you understand in JPII’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis?
John Paul II: Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
In 1994, Pope John Paul II declared, “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
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Jock and C are correct, we have discussed this, and it’s always divisive, overly so, in my opinion. My church abolished the priesthood 500 years ago to what seemed to them (and the founder was a priest) to be good and sufficient reasons, in favor of the Universal Priesthood and the High Priest, which we all agree on. In that, there can be (and is) no disagreement about women priests.
But we continually have this discussion as well with regard to ordained clergy, which is rather the point. My own church has female clergy, and while I’ve not interacted too much with them, I have had no problem, indeed found them quite effective. Other parts of Lutheranism forbid such things, and, in truth, that is my preference. It seems to be my experience that men teach a more well rounded Christianity – with more emphasis on consequences, which I find lacking in most female clergy.
None of that goes to the foundations of the controversy, which is well beyond my language level. And I suspect that to be true for many on both sides.
So here I remain, firmly straddling the fence.
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NEO – nevertheless, when Paul (1 Corinthians 14v34) puts a prohibition on women, he must have meant something. We should try to understand what Paul meant before we dismiss it.
I think that Calvin’s understanding of Paul on this particular matter is the correct one. Commenting on 1 Corinthians 14v34 he writes
`For how unseemly a thing it were, that one who is under subjection to one of the members, should preside over the entire body! It is therefore an argument from things inconsistent — If the woman is under subjection, she is, consequently, prohibited from authority to teach in public.’
Now comes the important part, the `meat and potatoes’ of his argument, which certainly does not seem to apply to any situation today:
`And unquestionably, wherever even natural propriety has been maintained, women have in all ages been excluded from the public management of affairs. It is the dictate of common sense, that female government is improper and unseemly. Nay more, while originally they had permission given to them at Rome to plead before a court, the effrontery of Caia Afrania led to their being interdicted, even from this. Paul’s reasoning, however, is simple — that authority to teach is not suitable to the station that a woman occupies, because, if she teaches, she presides over all the men, while it becomes her to be under subjection.’
Now Calvin’s take on Paul is crystal clear: women are excluded from church ministry for exactly the same reasons as they are excluded from public office; the idea of having a woman in public office is just so ludicrous that it doesn’t bear thinking about.
This certainly seems to have been the way of thinking back in the time of Paul and also in the time of Calvin, but more recently we have seen women doing very well in public office so that the argument does not apply.
If there are other ways of reading Paul, these would be very interesting, but we can see that the arguments provided by Scoop are just pure hogwash.
His argument for `in the person of’ – well, when Jesus says `do this in remembrance of me’, every single Christian who has ever partaken of the bread and wine ceremony has been doing this in remembrance of Him, of the blood poured out and of the broken body. We are not doing it `in the person of’ Christ’ and we certainly don’t need to be endowed with a John-Thomas in order to be able to take partake of the communion bread and wine.
In times past, Bosco would spam this site with rubbish which he had gleaned from anti-Catholic web sites. Well, we don’t need Bosco when Scoop comes along with these quotes from John Paul II which explain soooo nicely why women are excluded from some parts of the Christian ministry, `a woman has the potency to get pregnant, but not to become a priest; in exactly the same way a man has the potency to become a priest, but not to become pregnant.’
This is a joke, right? Scoop is actually an anti-Catholic in disguise, dredging up the most entertaining and ludicrous bits and pieces put forward by popes, just in order to make the Catholic church look stupid, right? I found this `potency’ piece highly entertaining.
In the Old Testament, the priesthood was extremely restricted; you not only had to be male, but you also had to be a descendant of Aaron to belong to the priesthood. That is a tiny fraction of the population (twelve tribes and, less than 1/3 of the Levites eligible for the priesthood) – and the choice seems purely arbitrary. It would be very difficult to manufacture an argument from the Old Testament to exclude women unless you also exclude everybody else who isn’t descended from Aaron, which might mitigate, ever so slightly, against the fact that Paul was bringing the gospel message to the Gentiles.
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As i said Jock, I’m quite ambivalent about women clergy. Not really from any biblical or historical reason, of which I can easily see both sides. I just think that because of our inherent characteristics, men are better suited, but also remembering that my interactions with female clergy have been outstanding. For me, in the final analysis, it comes down to the individual. There are good and bad female clergy, just as there are male. although I do think the percentages favor the male.
Scoops arguments are real. There are Lutheran and Anglican sources that make them as well. For me the only permanence is change, and I think women have proved themselves, but I don’t insist that everybody in Christendom agree with me, because I can see the logic of their argument. Calvin’s argument though, as far as I understand it, is pretty obsolescent.
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NEO – out of interest, were you born and brought up in a Lutheran environment? Or did you come to it later?
To me, the idea of a super-duper Spiritual A-team who act `in the person of Christ’ is wiggy – and the justification for it (as given by Scoop) looks utterly ludicrous – and I suspect that you have to be conditioned to think in a way that makes this look OK from an early age.
Similarly, this `potency’ thingy.
I’m not saying that the conclusions are necessarily wrong; it is the argumentation, the whole way of thinking and the `logic’ that leads to these conclusions which intrigues me and I wonder where it comes from.
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(by `these conclusions’ I mean the decision of who is `in’ and who is `out’ of the pastorate / priesthood /teaching ministry, etc …. . It’s not so much the conclusion, but rather the style of logic leading to the conclusion that is of interest)
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Kind of, Jock. The American version of the Church of Prussia, a forced marriage of Lutheran and Reformed, and not very good at either.
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Although, if you were Missouri Synod, you’d be on a particular side of the fence.
Any rate, this particular discussion is always a tragedy to me in the sense that it’s usually brought up because there’s a lost sense and purpose of the common priesthood among Catholics and the role of the Domestic Church. It’s also telling that it’s something that rests in the allure of power. When I mention to both men and women that they’re baptized into the common priesthood and they are the leaders of their domestic church, there’s no interest in it. However, there’s somehow concern with who gets to be the person front and center and the spot light.
How about be the Apostle of the Family! More importantly your family! Studies show time and time again that the role of the faith in the family in everyday life is what passes on the faith. So, what is at the heart of these questions? Is it really a concern to preach the Gospel? Want to preach? Lead the Liturgy of the Hours with your family, make those prayers and supplications to God. Preach to your family what the gospels mean.
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Yep, I would. I think that you hit on Luther’s problem with the priesthood, I have the impression from my reading that he thought it a straight downhill path from the regular clergy to clericalism, and we see enough of that from the hierarchs (in all churches) to suspect he might have had a point.
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“As in another passage also, Aristarchus my fellow-prisoner. Colossians 4:10 Then another praise besides. Who are of note among the Apostles. And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even among these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion (φιλοσοφία) of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! But even here he does not stop, but adds another encomium besides, and says, Who were also in Christ before me.” (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 31 on Romans
That Junia is an apostle is more of a problem in the West which limits the title specifically to the Twelve. Indeed, there are categories of apostles and in the East Junia is generally numbered among the Seventy. The Twelve inherit the Episcopal Apostolic Succession though so there’s not much of a debate in the East. St. John Chrysostom was a fierce opponent of women’s ordination to the priesthood.
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I think you’ve getting to the point that I asked to Chalcedon below. I’d agree that it’s more of a problem in the West to the degree that the West does classify ‘Apostles’ and ‘Disciples’ as different, but they do appear to have a synonym quality to them that your allude to in your comment.
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From my point of view, a more useful thing to discuss would be what and who the church is for, what is its role. My sermon for today is based in 1 John 2v27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
This basically describes the position of believers; `the church’ is therefore starting from the assumption (or at least it should be) that those who come along are `in Him’ and `need no other teaching’.
Of course, I have benefitted greatly in the past from listening to someone at the front who has studied much more than I have, who has the time for theological endeavour (I’m supposed to be doing a proper job) and who has been able to draw out from Scripture and make explicit matters of faith which were already there at an intuitive level within my heart and mind. Also, I don’t really have time to fork out all the matters of urgency connected with the mission at home and abroad which require our prayers. It is very good for us if there is somebody doing that for us – this is what `the church’ is for.
But the whole business does seem to take a dark and sinister direction if we have some sort of super-spiritual A-team who think of themselves as `acting in the person of Christ’ (and who require a John-Thomas in order to be able to do this, since Jesus clearly had one). I frankly abhor anyone in that role – whether they be men or women.
It seems diametrically opposite to any view of the church that I have.
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You might be interested in today’s post, Jock, which begins in that direction.
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The Male Priesthood: The Argument From Sacred Tradition
A well thought out article at CERC:
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/the-male-priesthood-the-argument-from-sacred-tradition.html
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Question:
Was the person of Junia in Romans 16 male or female? If female, how is her title of "apostle" to be interpreted?
Answer:
There are a few problems with interpreting this passage:
It is debated whether the name is Junia (female) or Junias (male). The difference is where the accent mark is placed. The oldest surviving manuscripts do not contain accent marks. Scholars generally lean toward the idea that the name is female, but others in history (and some even today) contend that the name is a male. Outside of Romans 16:7, Junia(s) is not mentioned in the Bible or in early Church writings.
The passage has also been translated in various ways that can differ in meaning from the presumption that the name referred to is an apostle:
KJV: “. . . who are of note among the apostles . . .”
NAB, NRSV: “. . . they are prominent among the apostles . . .”
ESV: “They are well known to the apostles . . .”
NJB: “Greetings to those outstanding apostles, Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-prisoners, who were in Christ before me.”
DRB: “Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles.”
The passage has been translated by some as a direct reference to the two names as being members of the apostles, but others have translated it as the two names were simply well known to the apostles. There is no definitive way to translate/understand the passage.
Even if we were to accept the name as feminine (likely but not certain) and that the name is referred to as being a member of the apostles (highly debatable), we are still stuck with the fact that the term apostle did not always connote ordination as we understand it today. Apostle simply means one who is sent. Paul notes that Jesus appeared to 500 (1 Cor. 15:6); perhaps he gave a message of spreading the gospel at which Junia was present. Perhaps Junia is the wife of Andronicus, and they were simply referred to as a team. Mary Magdalene was traditionally called the “apostle to the apostles,” yet no one who used that expression considered her to be among the Twelve.
There are simply too many debated and disputed elements to definitively say just exactly what St. Paul was trying to say here. What we do know is that, outside of this one highly debatable and disputed passage, there are no references to a woman holding Church office requiring ordination. In fact, if the female-apostle advocates were correct, it would seem quite odd that the one single female apostle would be lost to history. Her uniqueness would seemingly have set her apart for praise and honor amongst the earliest Christians.
And if she points to an acceptance of ordaining women in the early Church, why then are there no other known examples? In the New Testament we see other examples of women in prominent roles in the early Church, yet none of them holds what we would consider a Church office of ordination.
The meaning of this passage is far from clear, and the overwhelming testimony of the rest of Scripture and Tradition argues against considering Junia a female apostle.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-junia-a-female-apostle
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There is no record anywhere of the name “Junias” and until the last century it was accepted that the name was Junia. I have no firm evidence why it was changed, but it seems one if the few cases where the Catholic translation became the preferred one.
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Note that Luther did the same.
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It’s interesting that someone thought they need to make a change. As Scoop’s comment points out for example:
“who are of note among the apostles.”
Is not particularly clear. Are they being called Apostles or do they have places of honor and are known to the Apostles?
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It is clear, the unclarity comes to those who for whatever reason need to complicate it. Occam’s razor is my usual guide.
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Also, enlighten me to the original language since the English is rather vague. St. Paul says the following: “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the Apostles, who also were in Christ, before me (Romans 16:7).”
Does this mean the A and J were Apostles or does it mean that they were known to (among) the twelve?
And if the meaning is that she was an apostle then where is the proof as it is unlikely that her mission would be lost to history. The Orthodox have no problem delineating two types of apostles: the Twelve, and those (who are all who are sent on mission) in the laity who spread the faith.
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As the essay says, Ambrosianus took it in it’s obvious meaning. It’s almost as though for some reason some men need to deny the obvious. Either you take your stand on tradition or not, but to falsify the record by inventing a name unknown anywhere in the ancient world? Why would any Christian even do that?
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Not sure if it began with a reprobate or if it was a natural misreading of a horizontal line above the letters for an oblique one.
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Well if it was a misreading, it was by someone entirely ignorant of the views of the Church Fathers and other ancient commentators.
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It really doesn’t matter who they were or how it happened . . . only that it stirs up those who want to think that that women can be priests and bishops. All they have is a jot and/or a tittle but they have no evidence that a woman has ever received ordination from the Church. And that cry seems to have increased from the radical feminist movement which turned many of our nuns into the infamous ‘nuns on the bus’ which we are rather well familiarized with.
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I’d have to touch a later point of your here. As a historian, it’s difficult to ignore what earlier manuscripts say. So, I figure that is the ‘something’ that burns in the mind for you Chalcedon being a trained historian. However, my question is what is the context of apostle? Are either of these peoples mentioned ‘apostles’ in the sense of the original twelve. Does Paul merely use the word in a strictly missionary sense of the gospel. After all, later we get Augustine Apostle of Great Britain, or the Apostle to the Slavs etc.
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Much here depends, Philip, what you think the initial meaning of the word was. It is clear to St Paul that she was an Apostle. It seems to have been equally clear to modern translators that since an Apostle could not have been female, the name must be “Junias”.
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So, if we’re to assume the priesthood is male, does that necessarily equate that Apostle has to be male also? I’ve actually never made that distinction personally. As Daniel points out, there seems to be different degrees to the word ‘apostle’.
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That seems to put thiongs the wrong way around. After all, the assumption that Junia had to be Junias clearly came from the view that only men could be Apostles. From Abrosiaster’s reaction it is clear what he thought.
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But that change you seem to indicate comes at a later date? Couldn’t it follow that equating the priesthood and the apostleship comes at a later date? Wouldnt it be an assumption that development only works in one way? Couldn’t it be possible that St. Paul understand in the context of missionary , wouldn’t this also follow his writings on women and teaching too?
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It could well. But it could also bear the plainer meaning.
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