I was saddened by Scoop’s comment yesterday.
I personally have given up on going to or giving money to the Novus Ordo Church in the US and will have to do with a parish visit every now and then when a Traditional Mass is available. And I would never have thought of doing such previously but things have devolved so rapidly here in the US. I am grateful that I can do this in accordance to Canon Law; being exempt from my Sunday Obligation in lieu of my age and my physical constitution.
Although he and I have not always agreed, I have never for one moment doubted the depth and steadfastness of his faith, which is why reading this heartfelt cry made me sad. I understand, as many will, his reasoning. It raised in my mind the subject of tradition and change.
Living things change, it is the pre-eminent sign of life; what does not live begins to decay or, at best, can be embalmed in preservatives; but Christianity lives, which means it changes.
Every time the Gospel is preached something changes, every time someone turns to Christ they are changed. The Apostles did not celebrate the Liturgy as established at the Council of Trent, indeed, they did not even read the Gospels in their Churches, and they certainly did not have statues of Jesus or Our Lady, white, brown or yellow. Wherever the Apostles went, they encountered a local culture, and as we see in Acts, they brought the Good News into that context and changed it; but they also adapted to local conditions. There was no insistence on a one-size fits all model, and those who, like St James and the church in Jerusalem, tried to insist on one, failed to get their way. Had they done so, it would have been, as St Paul knew (which is why he was so passionate about it) far more difficult for the Faith to have spread as it did. There were those who disapproved, and no doubt those who turned away sadly because they thought they had much to lose (as Jewish Christians did in terms of family contacts if they ate with Gentiles). But the pattern set then continued, and it was, and is, one of continuity and adaptation.
Thus, as far back as we can trace, Christians have met to break blessed bread and share blessed wine in memory of the Last Supper and as a sign of the Resurrection. The early Church argued, as the modern one has, about what “in memory of me” meant, and whether, and even how, the bread and wine became the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ; but whether literally, symbolically or as a memorial, Christians have gathered in communion from the earliest times. In some traditions bread and wine have always been distributed, in others it has from time to time been held that since the Lord in fully present under both species, bread alone is sufficient. In some traditions there has been a continuous tradition of the bread being just that, an actual loaf; in others, a wafer has come to represent that bread. Having communed in both ways, I have to say I prefer bread, but having been denied the Lord for so long, I will take and eat whatever a priest has consecrated.
From earliest times Christians have wanted to know more about Jesus. The Gospels originated as a response to this need. They have also argued and disagreed about matters, and the letters of Paul, John, Peter and Jude originated as part of the attempt to deal with the questions asked and answered by the first Christians. Fierce arguments flared about the day of the Sabbath and the date of Easter, and Christians argued about whether celibacy was mandatory for all, or just for priests, or even for them, taking their evidence from where they found it, or claimed to, in Scripture.
The question of what was and was not Scripture also exercised Christians from very early on. When St Paul wrote that every word of Scripture was “God-breathed” he did not add “and that includes what I have just written to you, so behave and stop arguing with me.” But from very early on, contrary to modern myths, there were only ever four Gospels accepted, and those are the ones we have received. Originally in Greek (although some see behind the Greek traces of Aramaic), in the West they came to be translated into Latin, and fairly quickly St Jerome’s Vulgate became the accepted text. No doubt there were those who protested that this was not the same as the Greek, but in the West for centuries, the Vulgate was the Bible, and when locals began wanting it in the vernacular, there was opposition, just as once it was in the vernacular, later generations protested attempts to modernise the language. But all these changes were in response to changed contexts, and contexts have not ceased to change. Brought up on the King James Bible and The Book of Common Prayer, I have to admit to loving them both, and though I am well aware of the various deficiencies time and scholarship may have shown up, they still stir my imagination and my heart in a way the modern Catholic Missal and the New Jerusalem Bible fail to match; but for others, those texts I love so much, are obstacles to understanding and belief, and since no one has ever seen fit to elect me Pope, I accept what the Church tells me.
We like what we are used to, and for some of us the process of adaptaing to change is painful, especially when that change does not seem to be one for the better. This is where one can only pray for our priests, bishops and the Pope.
The Church is universal, but local; we do not live in the universal or worship there; we do that locally. There has to be unity, but within that there has to be diversity, just as there has to be commonality and independence; continuity also involves change. And here lies the problem.
As we see at the moment with some of the rhetoric of “Black Lives Matter”, there are interest groups who will always assert that their views have to have precedence, and if that means that other must be made to do as they want, so be it, because in their eyes what they want is the right thing. But as Christians we are called to a higher vision of the human condition, recognising as we must that such assertions are manifestations of our fallen nature. We are called to humility and self-restraint. We are the branches, not the vine, and the latter is not to be defined by the former. As Dean Martyn Percy has commented: “There seems little understanding than an unfettered claim to act freely can become antisocial, or even unethical. Great freedome comes with great responsibility.” (Percy, Thirty Nine New Articles, p. 31).
Obedience is the hardest of Christian virtues. Of only one thing can we be sure, that if it is of the Spirit, change will last, and if not, then not.
Catholic Holy Spirit or Carolingian Hypocrisy? If only the Pope had consulted Christ JOHN 15:26 instead of CHARLEMAGNE FILIOQUE (Council of Aachen, 809 AD).
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Scott, if this is the single most important thing to yuou in Christianity, I suspect you may be missing something. Was Jesus exercised about this subject? No. Why are you?
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Chalcedon451: If worshipping Pope Francis I as the Vicar of Christ and the Supreme Pontiff who is equal to Christ is all that matters to you, I state unequivocally you are twisting Saint Peter and Matthew 16 to your own heretical polytheistic Filioque destruction. You need to drop the Charlemagne and find the true Lord Jesus Christ.
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If you loathe Roman Catholics and our beliefs so much why don’t you go to blogs that reflect your own faith? You make yourself into that most intolerable creature on the internet; a simple troll.
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The loathing is not mine. My best friend is a Roman Catholic. In spite of our disagreement on Filioque, he is not a Croat. It is the Croatain Ustashe of World War II I am sorry about. They hated us. Our fellow Serbian Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. As a conscientious Roman Cathoilic, there is no way you should support what happened to Orthodox Christians under Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac under Hrvatski (Croatian) Ustashe fascist Nazis during World War II. Copley, Gregory R. (1995). Hiding Genocide: How Croatia has been winning a propaganda war and genocide against Orthodox Serbia. Etna, CA: Center For Traditionalist Orthodox Studies.
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What makes you think anyone worships a Pope. If the God you worship condemns people to hell over a difficult concept, you may be worshipping yourself, and not the God who identifies Himself as Love.
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Thomas Aquinas in “Contra Errores Graecorum” condemns the theology of the Greek Orthodox Church, and places, the official past documents of the RCC condemn anyone who does not accept Florence and Vatican I, to hell. Not once have I said that Roman Catholics are condemned to hell. As liberal Russian Orthodox Christians, we pray for the salvation and the unity of all in Chirst Jesus,. for this is Christ’s will, John 17, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tm. 3:15. But we cannot but with speaking the truth in love condemn anyone (among us) who willfully holds to Filioque, against the Gospel (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), and I would be forever condemned to hell if I should accept Filioque; so I warn others: you are in danger: Do not believe in Filioque. It, Filioque, is an act of moral fratricide (hatred) against the Gospel and the Greek Orthodox Church. See Photius, On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, in English & in Greek, Holy Transfigurtaion Monastery, Boston, Massachusetts, Studion Publishers, 1983. God save me from FIlioque. Amen.
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If your God condemns people to hell over Filioque, He is not love, therefore he cannot be God. Repent, stop worshipping a Church and turn to Christ.
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Hypocrisy chalcedon451. You condemn me falsely for calling the Church in Russia the Russian Orthodox Church. Your “Catholic” (sic:in truth, Carolingian/Frankish, not “universal”, “catholic”) Church you call the Roman Catholic Church. So you don’t evn practice what you preach. As for phyletism, love of one’s own country is not racism. But there is much that I hate about racist America, and no nation naturally is the kingdom of God. You say: “If your God condemns people to hell over Filioque, then He is not love”. Hypocrisy. Roman Catholicism’s “God” condemns people to hell for rejecting Filioque. You call the kettle black. No more I am not Saint Andrew the First-called apostle of Christ; I simply venerate Saint Andrew and ask him to pray for me a sinner. You go by Chalcedon of 451, and in this we are together and catholic. It was only the theological controversy over Filioque that divided us into two sheepfold as it were; In this Charlemagne and his Filioque is The Wild Animal and Fox, The Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing, the Thief, the Stealer of the Sheep. Your Roman Catholic community promotes this Creed against the Creed of Constantinople I, 381. It is called Athanasian, but is not from Saint Athanasius of Alexandria. This is Part I of my response to you:
Athanasian Creed and consequence of denying filioque
Thread starter Afterthought Start date Jun 20, 2011
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Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
Jun 20, 2011
#1
One thing I don’t understand about the Athanasian creed is why it makes the filioque (or eternal generation, for that matter) something necessary to believe for salvation. I know that the more I understand about the Trinity, the more I realize how important each Confessional statement concerning the Trinity is, but I still don’t realize or understand why denial of the filioque is considered a damnable offense.
Could someone explain to me why? And then what should we say about the EO who do deny the filioque or those who modify the filioque to “proceeds from the Father through the Son” (or something similar)?
Also, I know that we oftentimes measure the danger of doctrines by their logical consequences, so what are the logical consequences in doctrine of denying the filioque? (I have heard of a couple through searching the forums, but I haven’t seen the logic leading to the consequences)
And since doctrine is supposed to be practical, what are the practical implications of the filioque? (There was a thread on this earlier, but it didn’t get any answers)
Or maybe I’m on the wrong track and the Athanasian statements are about ecclesiology? (and so it is not so much someone is damned for denying the statements as they are put out of the visible church?)
I ask these about the filioque–though I’m curious about the same things concerning eternal generation–because I have a feeling the reasoning and consequences are similar in each case.
Thanks to any who help!
And the Athanasian Creed for reference:
The Athanasian Creed – The PuritanBoard
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
2. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
3. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance
4. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
5. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
6. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
7. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
8. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
9. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
10. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
11. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
12. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
13. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
14. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
15. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
16. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
17. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
18. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
19. so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
20. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
21. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
22. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
23. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
24. And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.
25. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
26. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
27. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
This is my response PART I. PART II to follow.
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What country is Rome? Do you even read what comes out of your head before sending. If you can point me to a modern country called Rome, your point stands, if not it is nonsense. Rome refers to the Rite, not a country. Did you really NOT know that??
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The NT says Peter and Paul were in Antioch? Where do you get your theory that the Catholic Church has a headquarters in ROME ONLY? Where is your Rome ONLY theory in the Apostolic Fathers? Show me Papism in The Apostolc Fathers. Show me the documents of Vatican I, Vatican II, Florence, and Trent in The Apostolic Fathers. Show me these in Irenaeus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, John Damascene, of the Creed of Constantinople I, 381 AD. There is no mention of the Pope of Rome in the Creed of the Catholic Church, 381 AD.
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The early Church recognised that the Bishop of Rome was primus inter pares. It was Rome who supported Athanasius in exile and Cyril against Nestorius – the heretic patriach of where, oh yes, that would be Constantinople. Christ founded His Church on Peter, and until your Church fell into disobedience, it recognised that. Since then it has, frankly, gone from disaster to disaster. Before Constantinople fell the Eastern Church accepted the filioque, but hard-liners resisted. Your Church suffered centuries of slavery as a result. I suppose there is nothing quite so sad as a group of churchmen who let their fellow Christians suffer centuries of misery for their own pride. Still, we can see from where your church stands in the world, how little it does to spread the word of God.
If it had been left to the Orthodox Church, there would be very few Christians in the world.
Dead things do not change, living things do. That your Church has changed nothing is not a sign of fidelity, it is a sign it is dead.
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You said:Before Constantinople fell the Eastern Church accepted the filioque. Exactly. Constantinople fell because most of the bishops accepted the Filioque heresy of the fratricidal (homicidal) council of Florence. The robber council of thugs and thieves. God therefore punished the Greeks with bondage to the Sultan, in punishment for their disobedience and heresy blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which FILIOQUE is against Jesus Christ in JOHN 15:26 and in Luke Acts 2:33.
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Oh dear. You really do have some odd ideas. Try reading some history. Start with Runciman, 1453.
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Rome doesn’t spread the Word of God. Rome spreads Heresy, FILIOQUE, AGAINST Christ, The Word of God, JOHN 15:26 and Acts 2:33; It is Rome is DEAD in FILIOQUE SIN. Proof: Rome’s founder in this, Charlemagne, who started this Inquisition and Imposition of FILIOQUISM upon the Latin Papacy. But not for blessed Pope Leo III. He resisted Filioque? So why aren’t you following the good catholic example of your own good pope of Rome, Leo III, who forbad Filioque? Why, then, do you enforce what your earlier Pope of Rome said was not catholic and orthodox?
He said a Pope can’t decide this matter; He deferred to the Holy Fathers and he said Constantinople I without Filioque, the Council over the Pope, is the true Faith.
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You find one Pope who agrees with you. What about all those who don’t? Frankly the issue is not one most people, including you, actually understand. Yet you think billions are in hell because of it? And you wonder why no one takes you seriously? Pray harder. I pray for you.
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Sorry. Your Pope preys, not prays. Copely, Gregory R. (1994). Hiding Genocide: How Papal Croatia is Fighting and Winning a Global Political Nationalist Propaganda War against the Serbian Orthodox Church. Etna, CA: Center For Traditionalist Orthodox Church. 759,000 or more Serbian Orthodox Christians were murdered in mass genocide by the Croatian Nationalist Fascist Ustashe, led by Roman Catholic Priests, and Catholic Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac, under no condemnation from Pope Pius XII, and later made a Saint of the Catholic Church by later Pope, because they would not convert willingly to Roman Catholicism and Filioque, your Papacy slaughtered them all in mass genocide. This is why I cannot believe your Rome was founded by Jesus Christ. Saint Peter never committed mass genocide.
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If you get your history from biased nationalist sources, you get hogwash like this. Try some real historians.
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Your Croatian butchers are the nationalists. Call the kettle black. There is no excuse from Saint Peter for what the racist Anti-Orthodox Papalist Croatians did to the Serbs in the name of “The Pope”. So much for the love you talk about so glibly. They showed none to my fellow Serbian Orthodox brethren.
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There is no excuse for what the racist Croats or the racist Serbs did. Both sides are as bad as each other, and to blame it on religion is what ignorant men do.
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Your comments become ever more absurd.
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You think that I “think billions are in hell”? No. I don’t know. It is not up to me. Who is or will be in hell. That’s Christ’s judgment. All Christians are called to judge is to know the NT and believe and live by NT Trinitarian doctrines, faithfully, neither adding to, nor taking away from, what the NT says, except for what the 7 ecumenical councils all accept, 325-787 AD, which all Christians accepted universally; the issue is which is the 8th ecumenical council. 869-870, or 879-880. Jude 1:3: I contend it is 879-880 AD, Pope John VIII, not Pope Nicholas I, 867 AD. Your real Papalist problem is with Pope Nicholas, and his hatred of Patriarch Photius.
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Can you point me to where the NT says “except for what the 7 ecumenical councils say”?
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Show me Florence and Vatican I in John 3:16, John 15:26, and John 16:13, Jude 1:3.
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What NT verse says Rome is the New Jerusalem? What country is Rome? In the Roman Empire. Is the Roman Empire gone? Yes! Is the Papacy here? Yes? Was the Pope of Rome always a Roman Emperor? No. Is the Pope of Rome a Roman Emperor today? Yes!
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You are now off the silliness scale. How is the Pope an Emperor? Where does he claim to be?
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You are off the silliness scale with your lact of facts. You said Matthew 18, Saint Peter, The Rock. No. It is Matthew 16. And you haven’t consulted the Church Fathers. Some of them say it was Peter’s Confession of Faith that is the Rock. That is the truth. I believe that is the Truth. Auer, Reverend Father Marc. (1990). The Myth of Papal Infallibility. Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/ Liberty, TN: The St. John of Kronstadt Press. This is not prejudice. This is fact/Truth.
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I quote Jesus. If you wish to prefer a later person, that’s your business.
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You misquote and mis-believe Jesus. You don’t believe “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God”, is the Only Rock upon which the Catholic Church is founded. Your belief is not true. Peter was rewarded. He is one of the Apostles. He is a good Saint. Not so with some of the Popes. Or with me. I’m a sinner.
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No, Jesus said you are Peter and on this rock …
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TheRite of Rome is NOT universally accepted in all Christian Churches, do you not KNOW that? It dates from Gregory I the Dialogist, and the Popes of Rome had a different Roman Rite before Pope Gregory the Great. The Orthodox Church considers Poipe Gregory I an Orthodox Saint because he was Orthodox. Anyone who rejects Constantinople I without Filioque and adds Filioque is considered not a Saintb by the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church is the true Catholic Church. You do not even know your Church is NOT ROMAN. The Holy Roman Empire is Neither ROMAN NOR An EMPIRE nor HOLY, it is FRANKISH, CAROLINGIAN. You will NEVER KNOW the TRUTH if you do NOT READ and BELIEVE: Romanides, Fr. John Samuel. (1982). Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine: An Interplay of Theology and Society. Briookline, Massachusetts: Holy Cross Orthodox Press. God bless you.
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Of course not. No one said it was. That is why it is called the Roman Rite. What your nationalist Church believe about a Catholic Pope is of interest only to those few who follow it.
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Your term nationalist is your own Russophobic bigotry. And I am not even Russian. I am an Orthodox Christian. I don’t claim the visible Church on earth has One Earthly Capital with a visible Head. Since Christ’s kingdom is spiritual, and mystical, and not political, earthly, and temporal, you Pope claiming temporal power over kings and nations and bishops contradicts Christ’s plan for His Church: “My Kingdom (Church) is not of this World”. If a Patriarch or Pope or Bishop is heretical, we withdraw from communion with him; if I fall into heresy, our Patriarch, Metropolitan, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, they all will tell me that I have taught heresy. If I should, God grant me peace and repentance, and knowledge of the truth of what doctrine I get wrong 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tm. 2:4. God bless you.
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You claimed you were Russian Orthodox. Were you lying?
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Roman Catholic? Were you born in Rome. Russia is a metaphor. Our Church is based in Russia and America. That’s not a lie. Are you racist and say I have to be ethnically Russian to call myself Russian? This doesn’t matter? What do you call a biracial American? Black? White? American? To be honest, Europeans aren’t Americans. The Native peoples are “Americans”, and even the term “American” is racist, and comes from mispronunciation of an Italian. Race doesn’t matter. Are you then Russophobic?
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Rome, as I tried to inform you, is a Rite not a country. Your point would be?
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Brothers, we are all the same. We have all sinned. We have all worshipped ourselves. Because of our many sins, there is Vatican I, which places trust in a man in Rome as “Vicar of Christ”, and what is this but self-worship? The Russian Orthodox Church grieves for Rome, that Rome is isolated from and separated from us in the holy Russian Orthodox Church. Our separated Christians in Rome do not know the love of Christ in John 15:26; they follow another gospel (Gal. 1); we pray that Rome be saved from Filioque, repent, and believe the Gospel. We pray for ourselves, for our many sins, which keep us from this Christian unity which we in Christ, are all to pray for John 17. It is too early for such unity on earth as it is in Heaven, for “We all like sheep have gone astray, every one of us to his (their) own way (Ways); and the LORD has laid upon Him (The LORD Jesus Christ) the iniquity (sins) of us all”. God save us all 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tm. 2:4, Eph. 4:5; John 3:16 for all of us.
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St Peter is the rock upon whom Christ founded His Church. He sent the Apostles to preach in His name. A “vicar” is simply a representative of Christ, so whence you derive the idea that this title is a form of self-worship, I can’t imagine.
If you are following the Russian Orthodox Church which supports Putin’s crimes, I think you may need to begin to tidy up your own backyard. That Phyletism condemned by the Orthodox Church has been its ruin. The fact you call your Church by the name of a country when, in your Creed, you say you beieve in the Holy Catholic Church shows that sin. Youyr Church ministers to a few patches of the world, I ask which Church is Catholic, that is which Church is represented in all parts of the globe? One is the Church founded by Christ on the rock of Peter, the other is a construct of men who thought they knew better than the successors of St Peter. How had that worked out for you?
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Response to Chalcedon451’s myth of Saint Peter. 1. You misuse the name of Saint Peter to justify Charlemagne and his Filioque. 2. Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne in 800 AD; it was not Saint Peter who did this. 3. You confuse the Russian Orthodox Church with Vladimir Putin. This is an immoral bigoted “guilt by association” argument against the Russian Orthodox Church, by scapegoating Russia by Anti-Putin hysteria. This is politics. This is not catholic theology. Our politics must be based on theology, catholic theology, and only Chalcedonian Orthodoxy (Eastern and Western until 1079 in England), is catholic in the non-papalist sense. See: Mettan, Guy. (2016). Creating Russophobia: From the Great Schism to Anti-Putin Hysteria. Atlanta, GA: Clarity Press. Your Romanism is based on two heads: Christ AND PETER. Orthodoxy is based on One Head: PETER’s Words about CHRIST (not about Peter): “THOU ART THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God). Not knowing the Scriptures, nor the Power of God, you do greatly ERR; You IGNORE the NT New Testament: JOHN 1:42; 1 COR. 1:12; 1 COR. 3:22; GAL.2:11.
AND YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT SAINT PETER BELIEVED JOHN 15:26, AND SAINT PETER DID NOT SAY “FILIOQUE”, WHICH YOU SAY, YOU SAY “FILIOQUE”, BUT NOT EVERY POPE OF ROME SAID FILIOQUE, AND POPE LEO III OF ROME AND POPE JOHN VIII OF ROME FORBAD FILIOQUE TO BE ADDED TO THE CREED, BUT YOUR CAROLINGIAN POPE BENEDICT VIII, UNDER PRESSURE FROM FRANKISH EMPEROR HENRY II, COMMANDED FILIOQUE TO BE SUNG IN THE CREED. YOU IGNORE HISTORY AT YOUR OWN PERIL.
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I accept that there is a perfectly decent case to be made for omitting the filioque. What I do not accept is that God cares so much about it he has send generations of people to hell for not accepting it. If the God in whom you believe does that, then why on earth do you want to be with such a creature?
The Catholic Church does not teach you wil go to hell for omitting the filioque.
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The Athanasian Creed does say that anyone who does not believe Filioque will perish eternally. The Catholic Church does indeed accept the Athanasian Creed. Therefore the Catholic Church and the Pope of Rome does indeed preach that anyone who does not believe Filioque will perish eternally. But you equivocate, speak out of both sides of your mouth. The Orthodox Church is unequivocal. Indeed, The Synodicon of Orthodoxy does say Anathema to anyone who believes Filioque. However, that they will perish eternally is up to God, for the Orthodox Church is not the Master nor the Judge of All the Earth; Christ decides this, who perishes eternally; the Church merely obeys Christ and says the Truth: Filioque is wrong.
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If you believe God condemns people to hell for not believing in a concept you don’t even comprehend, then you are wrong. Would a God who is Love do that? Would stupid men who want power claim he did?
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Athanasian Creed of your Latin Papacy condemns to hell any who do not believe Filioque, and you do not comprehend this Creed, but your Papacy does not say this Creed is not necessary. Instead, it endorses in the CCC 1994, the same Filioque concept you do not comprehend, and your own Pope Leo XIII endorses Thomism as necessary philosophy for all Roman Catholics, and Thomas Aquinas in “Contra Errores Graecorum” condemns the “Greeks” as “heretics” for not saying “Filioque”, because of Catholicism’s obsessive earthly power-quest that it is “necessary for salvation for all human beings to be in submission to the Pope of Rome” Boniface VIII, “Unam Sanctam”, a concept absent in all the first seven ecumenical Councils, 325-797, all of the councils the early Pope of Rome endorsed and accepted without placing any anathema maranatha on anyone who did not submit to the Pope of Rome, nor is this bull “Unam Sanctam” of Pope Boniface VIII his words are nowhere in the early Church and Popes. Nor are Boniface VIII’s words in the “Apostolic Fathers”, the earliest Christian doctrines after the NT period. Why then do today’s “Catholics” so-called make necessary for “salvation” something the early Christians (Catholics) did not require? Truth does not change!
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Quoting what past Popes said without quoting from the Catchesism is the usual fault of those who take your line. Truth, like Love, does not change.
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You said Catchecism? What is that? More sophistry from you this time! Can’t you follow my need for jokes? St. Smilus? Your appeal to St. Peter as some kind of endorsement for Catholicism is worse than a joke: it’s a crime against God and man. And the Undivided Church, 325-866. And from 30-324 the Catholic Church was Undivided, too. You guys did mess up over Charlemagne and FIlioque. Face facts.
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If you do not know what the Catechism is, inform yourself.
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The CCC 1995 says Filioque, and thus defies Proverbs 30:6 and John 15:26 for the Catechism says Filioque. But you don’t care. You think it doiesn’t have anything to do with the genocide of the Serbs by the Croatian Catholic Ustashe. It does. We are dying for Christ at the bloody hands of your Vatican I Popes. And your heretical Council of Florence. And Vatican I is the worst insult heresy against Jesus Christ of all. Repent, and reject Filioque. God bless you.
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St Peter is the rock upon whom Christ founded His Church. He sent the Apostles to preach in His name. A “vicar” is simply a representative of Christ, so whence you derive the idea that this title is a form of self-worship, I can’t imagine.
If you are following the Russian Orthodox Church which supports Putin’s crimes, I think you may need to begin to tidy up your own backyard. That Phyletism condemned by the Orthodox Church has been its ruin. The fact you call your Church by the name of a country when, in your Creed, you say you beieve in the Holy Catholic Church shows that sin. Youyr Church ministers to a few patches of the world, I ask which Church is Catholic, that is which Church is represented in all parts of the globe? One is the Church founded by Christ on the rock of Peter, the other is a construct of men who thought they knew better than the successors of St Peter. How had that worked out for you? yes. true your FILIOQUE error for men with itching ears and believing every wind of false doctrine spreads quickly to all parts of the globe, along with your original sin of Augustinianism. Because you ignore Paul to Saint Timothy, you ignore the fact that error prevails in the last day, and your FILIOQUE is that error, and with Cardinal Newman’s development of doctrine, every Protestant Pope of Rome invents many new heresies and innovations with each passing Papacy. AGAIN, your Papacy is NOT from Saint PETER, but from CHARLEMAGNE.
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When you talk about procession of God, I’m curious what do you mean by the word procession? It might help to define our terms?
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Whatt “I” mean on something matters not; what matters is whether or not what “I mean” is, or is not, the same meaning as the meaning of/from the Orthodox Church, which comes from Christ, which is the Church of Christ, the mystical Body of Christ. As a Russian Orthodox Christian convert to the “one holy catholic and apostolic Church” of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 AD (without Filioque), I confess, “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the LORD and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father” alone (John 15:26). Proceeds simply means “comes from” or “flows forth from” or “comes from alongside of” ekporeuetai “the Father” John 15:26). The Greek words are “ekporeuesis” and “elporeuemon”, to “piur forth from (come from” the Father. I go by the NT of John 15 and the Nicene Creed of 391 AD without Filioque as a Russian Orthodox Christian. God bless you.
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So. You can’t answer the question then and have no idea what you’re talking about.
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I answered the question. You just wouldn’t listen without using ad hominem illogic to me personally, instead of intellectual honestly engaging with what I said. Instead, you deliberately chose to resort to insulting me, rather than my saying the honest truth: “I” am not the Church. No one individual is the Church, certainly not a heretical Pope like Francis I who confesses the Filioque heresy. The Church is the Church. The Church is infallible. The Church, the Orthodox Church, infallibly stated the truth in 381 AD at the Second Ecumenical Council, agreed to by the Orthodox Catholic Pope of Rome, that the Holy Spirit “proceedeth from the Father”, and the Pope of Rome did not require then the addition of “Filioque”, under the anathema maranatha of later Popes of Rome requiring de fide the Filioque dogma of the later Papal council of Florence (which is not an Ecumenical Council of the Undivided Church, 324-880. After 880 and the last good Pope, John VIII, the division of Christendom came. Unfortunately. Do not remain in the dark of not knowing Church history, and read the correct view of the Church history in: Romanides, Fr. John Samuel. (1982). Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine: An Interplay of Theology and Society. Brookline, Massachusetts: Holy Cross Orthodox Press. MATTHEW 16:13-20FF., MARK 16:16, JOHN 3:16, JOHN 14:26, JOHN 15:26-27, ACTS 2:33, EPHESIANS 4:5, 1 TIMOTHY 2:4 1 TIMOTHY 3:15 2 PETER 3:9 JUDE 1:3. ALSO 2 THESSALONIANS 2:15, 3:6. AND 1 COR. 11:1-2.
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You didn’t answer the question and it appears you also don’t know what an ad hominem is either. There was no personal attack on your character, only an observation of deprivation on the understanding of the definition of procession in relation to God.
Let me help you nail down a definition of procession, so we can actually have discussion.
Would you say procession in your idea of procession is God eternally proceeding? Is procession a generation? If so, how would you describe what precisely this generation is with God? Your position is that The Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father, so is there more than one procession? What type of operation is this procession? How does this relate to relations found in God?
Obviously, you didn’t touch any of these issues. So, you didn’t answer the question at all. So, again it wasn’t an ad hominem, but most people do not know what an ad hominem actually is, it was an observation that because you didn’t touch any particular point in your original answer you, in fact, don’t know anything about the actual subject of procession.
So, what I can only deduce is that you simply copy and paste Eastern Christian political propaganda of the so called ‘orthodox’ church, which I don’t know exactly which one you’re talking about out of the 10, 12, or 14 however many they’re counting these days out of who’s been excommunicated by what patriarch.
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Your rant is an incoherent incomprehensible rant. Why are you trying by reason alone and philosophy and parsing of human definitions of words and papalist traditions of men, like Thomism and Aristotelianism, and Filioque Augustinianism, trying to peer without humillity in to the mind and the Word of God, NT. We all, we are all sinners, and we must with fear and trembling approach the NT and OT texts, for we are apt by our sins and our humanity and original sin misunderstand the whole lot of each verse of the whole Bible, Gen. – Rev. Why does Catholicism make so much of Augustine of Hippo? That is its fault. Its philosophy. It’s pride of philosophical reason. The Orthodox Church goes by the 7 ecumenical councils, the NT, the Creed of 381 AD, 2nd Ecumenical Council, without Filioque, and by the final word on Church Councils, Ephesus 431 AD, and Chalcedon, 451 AD, which forbad, in agreement with the consent and the Faith of the Bishop of Rome, Pope of Rome, 381-451 AD, the Pope agreed, no words can be added to the Creed of 381 AD, no words of explanation can replace or amend the Creed, add to it, or take any words from it, nor can Proverbs 30:6 be violated by Pope,Patriarch, Prophet, or Presbyter, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, or Layman. Laity. Later, Rome fell away from this, in Pope of Rome Benedict VIII, who 1013-1014, added the Word Filioque to the Creed of the Council of 381 AD. They use Matthew 16 as the pretext for all of their heresies, and they are not successors of St. Peter, who, Saint Peter believed John 15:26 and Acts 2:33. Dust shaking off my shoes for any who are not willing to listen to the truth which I preach. God save me. God bless you and save you all from Filioque. This is my Christian mission in life. God forgive me for my many sins. God bless the Orthodox Church, and keep Her safe from the mouths of the heretics. Amen.
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Which of the Orthodox Churches do I belong to, then, Philip? It doesn’t matter, they are All Exactly the Same, they are All the One Church Ephesians 4:1-31, they all have the same Faith: Ephesians 4:5; most of them have been spared the murder and genocide of Serbian Orthodox Church by Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac and Catholic Roman Catholic Croatian (Hrvatski) Fascist Nazi Ustashe: Copely, Gregory R. (1994). Hiding Genocide: How Croatia Has Been Conducting and Winning a Modern Psychological Warfare Propaganda Campaign against Serbia and Eastern Orthodox and the Orthodox Church in the Popular European and Western Media, in the Great Hatred of the Orthodox Church (John 15:26; John 15:1-27), just as Christ said we would be hated of all (non-Orthodox) Nations. God save us. God keep you from hurting others. How can this be silent? History does not lie. Rome owes us an apology for its War Crimes and its pedophile cover-ups. God save the Orthodox Christians from their own many sins, too. God save Catholics from all their problems too. God bless them al. Jesus save us all. Amen.
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That’s just not true.
there are fourteen Chalcedonian churches, six non-Chalcedonian churches, and one Assyrian church and other groups. And between all.of them disagreement on doctrine, sacraments, government, and morals.
In fact,the Chalcedonians don’t agree on the procession of the Holy Spirit. The only thing they agree on is the myopic approach to the Church.
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In fact, you know nothing about the Orthodox Church since you are not Orthodox. The only way to know the Truth is to join us and to faithfully and humbly submit to Jesus Christ in His One Orthodox, to believe the True Gospel, the Orthodox Gospel, which He teaches His Orthodox Sheep. The Non-Chalcedonians are not Orthodox Christians, they are Monophysite Heretics. Not every Group that uses the word Orthodox is the Orthodox Church. The Roman Catholic Church is Neither ROMAN nor CATHOLIC but Latin-Speaking Germainized Frankish-Remnant Carolingian FILIOQUIST VATICAN I & FLORENCE HERETICS. See: Haugh, Richard. (1975). Photius and the Carolingians. Belmont, MASS: Nordland Publishers. Siecienski, A. Edward. (2010). THE FILIOQUE: History of a Doctrinal Controversy. New York: Oxford University Press. Ostroumoff, Ivan N. (1971). The History of the Council of Florence. Translated from the Russian by Basil Popoff. Boston, MASS: Holy Transfiguration Monastery. Mettan, Guy. (2016). Creating RUSSOPHOBIA: From the Great Schism to Western Anti-Putin Hysteria. Atlanta, GA: Clarity Press, Inc. Gillquist, Peter E. (2010). Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Chriistian Faith. 3rd rev. ed. Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing.
Saint Photios the Great. (1983). On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Holy Transfiguration Monastery, trans. Boston, MASS: Studion Publishers. Romanides, Reverend Father John Samuel, Ph.D. (1982). Franks, Romans, Feudalism, and Doctrine: An Interplay of Theology & Society. Brookline, MASS: Holy Cross Orthodox Press. The So-Called HRE (Holy Roman Empire) of the Heretical Dictator Charlemagne (742-814) was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire, but a DEAD, EMPTY FRANKISH KINGDOM of UNHOLY GHOST FILIOQUISTS. See also, for the Truth about God, the True Church, and the ungodly Atheist West: Father Justin Popovich. ORTHODOX FAITH AND LIFE IN CHRIST.. ASTERIOS GEROSTERGIOS, ET ALIA, TRANSLATORS. INSTITUTE FOR BYZANTINE AND MODERN GREEK STUDIES, 115 GILBERT ROAD, BELMONT, MA 02178. COPYRIGHT 1994. GOD BLESS AMERICA. GOD bless you, Philip. Amen.
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There are no Monophysites, as you would know if you knew anything about the Coptic and Syriac Churches. You amuse me. You say in one breath “you know nothing about the Orthodox Church since you are not Orthodox” and then, not being non-Chalcedonian proceed to repeat lies about the non-Chalcedonians. Your booklist is a jokem it is all from hard-line Eastern Orthodox sources. Try Sebastian Brock for some informed writing on a subject of which you are lamentably ignorant.
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Did you know the Ethiopians have longer OT and NT canons? So you are just plain misinformed on this. This issue is subtle, but there is little difference between their miaphysitism as they twist St. Cyril of Alexandria and the main Monophysitism they are indistinguishable from. If I am wrong on this, I apologize. But then you never apologize: You know everything! LOL!
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I do, but what has that to do with Monophytism? You are wrong, and I accept your apology.
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Also, Pope Saint John Paul II did make an apology to Eastern Christianity including the sacking of Constantinople in 2001. I suppose not good enough?
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True. Not good enough. We can not have fellowship with Papal Rome until Papal Rome returns to Holy Orthodoxy, 30 AD to 866 AD, before this schism of Pope Nicholas I, 867 AD. We cannot have fellowship with Rome Catholics until they adopt and accept the Apostolic Traditions 2 Thss. 2:15. 3:6, I Cor. 11:1-2, of the One Undivided Catholic Church, until they left the Catholic Church for the False Filioque Claims of the Carolingian Papacy, 1013-1014; 1054; until Rome reads and believes all our Latin and Greek Orthodox Catholic Fathers, the Syrian Fathers before the Monophysite Schism, the Same Fathers in the Orient before the Monophysite Schism, the Armenians, Copts, and Ethiopians and some of the Syrians before the became Monophysites and left the Church. For Eutyches, etc. Until they Confess the Same Creed as We do, without Filioque, baptize as we do, a cept the same list of Ecumenical Councils as we do, renounce their False Councils they falsely call Catholic and Ecumenical, renounce their fantasy of purgatory. their papalist avaricious greedy indulgences, their false mandatory celibacy, though optional celibacy is blessed, and east and west have in common monastic traditions: Married clergy, unmarried bishops, marriage, only once, for most laity; leavened bread in Eucharist, no statues of anything; no Vatican I, No Florence, no Council of Lyons 1274, and so on. And above all no Filioque and no more Croatian Catholic Fascism against Serbs and other Orthodox. No violence, greed, and pedophlia Roman priesthood. The same for us among our Orthodox clergy and laity. One Faith, the same moral standards, 10 commandments, for us all, Catholics and Orthodox. Whether any or all Protestants will willingly join us: unknown or not foreknown to any of us, perhaps, at least not to me as a baby, new Orthodox, apt to err, and just beginning, only just beginning to learn and live by our Orthodox Faith. God save me a sinner. God bless you always as well. God save us all.
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Change is a difficult subject, the distinction between applying universal truth in context (orthodoxy) and changing the rules to get what we want (heresy). The skill of evil is in making the latter look like the former.
As a Protestant I value tradition and consider it a vital link between the eyewitnesses of Christ and us today (see my review of The Mask or the Mirror,by Lydia McGrew), but clearly my position is not identical to the Catholic one.
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The main difficulty seems to me historical. Many of the things on which we disagreed in the past are no longer so contentious, but we ramain constrained by our pasts.
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I doubt that is entirely true, John. Many have died now and we now have, in their place mostly those who were taught their faith without a Catechism and suffer from the same malady that afflicts those who attend Universities these days: where in 1960 the professors were about 3 liberal leaning to 2 right leaning professors, today that number has changed to the hiring of about 50 to 1 as a ratio. Goodbye, academic freedom and dialogue. Our parishes and priests have undergone the same transformation and the only ones (home schooled in the secular arena) that fight on are the Traditional Rites who still teach the catechism and who still are having children similar numbers that we once had: in other words, they do not abort or contracept their children.
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All of this is true, and felt in every Church. Yet within Churches we persist in our ancient rivalries. I have far more in common with Catholic Anglicans and even Baptists than I do with the “we are church” V2 crowd in our own.
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As do I. And why every Bishop did not excommunicate the “We Are Church” organization members as +Bruskewitz did in Lincoln, NE is a large part of the problem. We have allowed the the interior cancer to grow and surgeons are being barred from operating to remove this deadly disease. Hirelings we have very many and Shepherds we have but few.
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Change is not so cut and dry as you make it sound, John, and you know that. We are not speaking of a flower without a soul and without freewill that simply matures and then dies. We are speaking here of something that is both visible and invisible. Something that is on the invisible level unchangeable and on the unhidden level made up of over a billion human beings who have freewill. Are you saying that the course of the visible Church is always led by the Holy Spirit and that their ‘changes’ are for the good? Like for instance the Catholic Charities giving money to those who promote LGBTQ, transgenderism and homosexuality as norms. Or maybe you like the change of the Church in selling out the underground Catholics in China for a sum of 2 billion dollars per year. Maybe a good change is that we say Mass with a representation of pachamama above the relics of St. Peter itself. Oh, but the bishops are working on fixing all of this: that is why the allegations this past year have tripled, see: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-25/clergy-sex-abuse-allegations-triple-us-roman-catholic-bishops-report
Now why, as a Catholic, would you or any other allow even a penny of your money to support the Bishops appeal that supports this lifestyle? I do not want a penny going to pay off the diocese for its payouts to victims of such crimes or to go to the USCCB who fashioned and is in charge of the CCHD and the CRS and other Catholic Charities who are continually being caught supporting their political agendas that are resoundingly prohibited by Church Teaching. But I guess that in your mind even de fide teaching is malleable since we now have a fellow on high who says it does not matter what you believe as long as you are trying to obey your conscience (whether formed or not). That there is no hell; that souls are annihilated; who opposes Capitalism but praises Communism . . . that very thing that Our Lady of Fatima warned against.
There is the changeable and the the unchangeable so I will give you a 50% yes on this post. When priests quit preaching on the last 4 things or on what we are required to believe and what is mortal and venial sin then we are doing what the Church always did. When all they can talk about and do is rail on about social justice and political causes then count me out. If I go to worship God then I want to worship God and to be challenged to live up to that commitment as to how to live and how to think. When I emerge from Mass I do not want to leave in a state of feeling that God was neither served nor honored nor worshipped today. It is a bit hard to take when you are fed on such a diet for 3 decades now. I have earned my peace away from such atrocities which allows me to imagine a parish that is worshiping God as the Church intended. For my mental health and spiritual health alone this absence of attending Mass where the “people of God” are being worshipped . . . if you are living a politically correct life . . . is good time to meditate and rejuvenate my faith, hope and charity. They robbed my mother and father-in-law of such peace and I am determined to not let that happen to me. I do have hope and faith that God will fix what needs fixing though I know it won’t happen in my time but in His. In the meanwhile I won’t enable this visible Church in its politicized worship and use of parishioner’s monies. I give my money directly to those whom I have trust that they will use my money as intended.
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I understand and sympathise. But as I say in the essay, what is of the Spirit will endure, what is not, will not. Capitalism is not, in itself Christian, and growing inequalities of wealth are hardly endorsed by the Gospel message. Communism elected to take on Christianity – and lost.
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I believe that to be the case as well but I also recognize that without dialogue and lay participation in identifying and speaking out on that which is not in concert with Christ’s Church as taught in past councils and Catechisms is denying one’s own Confirmation.
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St Catherine of Siena once wrote-
“..vices are so abundant, especially among those who were put in the garden of Holy Church to be fragrant flowers, shedding the fragrance of virtue; and we see that they abound in wretched, hateful vices, so that they make the whole world reek!”
It is possible for the Church to be corrupted in a multitude of different ways and over the course of its temporal existence every single one of these ways is likely to have its day. What is incorruptible, I think, are the sacraments and the Magisterium. Whenever the Church is reformed from less perfect to more perfect it is through the Spirit pouring His charism into great saints like Catherine and Francis who by working within the Church in loving obedience to the Pope effect changes which are miraculous. And if we ourselves we cannot be those charismatic saints then we should pray to God that they may be risen up and soon.
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Well your comment brings to my mind a simple analogy surrounding two things: nature and person (the what and the who) and Thomas’s substance and accidents). The nature and substance of the Church is Divine and has an end. However the person and the accidents can become disconnected from their nature and create a different end not in accordance to their purpose. When that happens, we do not legitimate that which is not guided by the true purpose and try to sugarcoat the persons or the accidents which are unruly and in need of being restored to their proper order. Some would rather proceed like nothing is need of being corrected, reformed or submissive and others like to think that it is our job, via our natures to change for the better. God gave us rationality to make those decisions and the freewill to effect them if we truly ask for the Graces and Virtues needed to make the whole person or whole Church that which God intended. Each man is on a journey and as we age and become grown ups we either take up our crosses or we lie down on them after we have made our crosses out of memory foam and covered them in velvet; then they are comfortable and we feel no need to fight out tendency to be complacent in our own journey toward reconciliation or to fight for the restoration of a Church let by perverts, greed and power seekers. Our job is to help weed out imperfections and to eliminate all occasions of sin.
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Corruptio optimi pessima.
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I agree with Scoop here. The problem is that change can be good if it leads us toward beauty and the Holy Spirit. But change is negative when it leads us away from beauty and the Holy Spirit. And the meme makes no sense. It defiles thousands of years of Catholic teaching which informs us that it is indeed possible to be more Catholic than the Pope. St. Robert Bellarmine even indicates that we can resist a Pope who misleads the Church. I believe it was St. Bridget of Sweden who said the Pope in Avignon was worse than Satan for keeping the seat of the Papacy away from Rome.
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There have been many different ages of the Church. History indicates the body of Christ as living as you indicate. I’ve been reflecting recently that those who hold fast to such traditions of the pre-conciliar church are they holding on merely the counter-reformation Church? Is this what they view as the height? I suppose Scoop will have an answer. Naturally, if the Church is moving or has moved into a different age where the Pope has to separate the Church from any sense of intergralism and be strictly as pastor to evangelize an increasing pluralistic global world then the mission field is different than that of the counter-reformation Church.
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Response to Chalcedon451: My Response Part II: You misappropriate the Name of Saint Peter. No Papacy comes from Christ or Saint Peter. Christ Founded His Church on the Faith of Saint Peter, Peter’s Rock Words: “Thou [Jesus Christ], art the Christ, the Son of the Living GOD”; NOT on the Man Saint Peter. Rome forgets this.28. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
29. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
30. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
31. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
32. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
33. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
34. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
35. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
36. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
37. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
38. He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
39. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
40. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
41. And shall give account of their own works.
42. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
43. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
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In Matt. 18 Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, or “Rock” and says “on this Rock I will buiold my Church” I accept that Jesus meant what he says. If you need to explain he meant something else, that should tell you that you are engaging in sophistry.
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Chalcedon451. A man is his faith, not the man himself. The Church is not of Man, is not of Peter, but of Christ. You in the false name of your false reading of Matthew 16 as Petrine only, ignore the rest of the NT. You violate Saint Augustine, If you believe what you want in the Gospel, but ignore what you don’t like in the Gospel, it is not the Gospel which you believe in, but you believe in yourself”. You cherry pick Matthew 16 to praise Peter, but you ignore Peter’s blessed words, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God”, and these words of Peter are the Rock for which Peter is called a rock, and called blessed by Christ. You ignore 1 Cor. 1:12 and 1 Cor. 3:22. Why?
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I am afraid it is you who cherry picks. If Peter is not the Rock, why was his name changed?
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Sorry that you are afraid. I am not afraid. Not at all? Cherry pick? Not at all! Don’t you know, the Patron Saint of Clowns is actually Saint Smilus! LOL! A man is his faith. Saint Peter’s faith is what saved him. Saint Peter’s faith is what saves us, and anyone who has Saint Peter’s faith is Saint Peter, and is a rock. For God is no respecter of persons. The NT says the Church is founded on all of the Apostles, not The Apostle. God plays no favorites. He loves everyone equally. Remember when James and John begged Christ to sit on His left hand and His right hand in the Kingdom of God, of Glory. Saint Peter in humility, never asked to be the foundation of the Church. Christ alone is the only Rock upon which the Church can be built, for without Faith it is impossible to please God. No joking. No false play on words. Peter is not a Pun for Pope. It is Peter’s Faith that saves the Catholic Church. There are no Co-Saviours. If anyone deserved to be the Rock upon which the Church is built, it would be the Ever-Virgin Mary and Mother of our GOD. But Christ didn’t even found His Church on Her. He founded His Church on Himself, through the Faith of the Mother of God first, and then later, Saint Peter’s Faith, Saint Andrew’s, Saint John’s, Saint James. And the Centurion, Cornelius, and all the rest.
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More sophistry. Jesus says he founds the church on this rock, having changed Simon’s name to Rock. If you want to pretend he didn’t mean it, or that the NT contradicts this, you might ask why.
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That’s your opinion. You do what you think. It’s not true about your Filioque. It’s wrong. Christianity does not depend upon our opinions of not. The Ncene Creed without Filioque of 381 AD Council is the true Gospel. Whether you believe it or not is another thing. Saint Peter is in the Creed and with the East in this matter. I you can’t believe that, it’s not the Orthodox Church’s fault. The Church is with Christ, and Christ saves us from Filioque.
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I dio not blame the Orthodox Church for anything. It is a shame it has become a refuge for reactionaries who prefer to remain in the 11th century.
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You are wrong to ad hominem call me a reactionary! Shame on you! You have no sympathy for none-Catholics, and all your creed comes from Charlemagne (742-814) not from John 15:26 and Christ. You have no reason for your Filioque. Your faith is blind and you lack charity for the Orthodox. You don’t even care about the Orthodox who have been killed by your Cardinal Stepinac.
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Chalcedon451 said: “In Matt. 18 Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, or “Rock” and says “on this Rock I will buiold my Church”. Wrong. The fact is, that is in Matthew 16:13-19. Your credibility for Peter being a Pope is lacking when you can’t even get your Bible chapter references correct. Take care.
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Chalcedon – first and foremost (and the reason why I’m commenting on this one) I much preferred it when you were pseudonymous, blogging under the name Chalcedon – and any alien from outer space who wanted to find out who you really were had to do some serious work.
There are some weird people out there and this is a simple precaution for your own safety. You could get exactly the same points across, just as eloquently and clearly if you entitled this `Charlie Manson’s Christian Blog’. You don’t need to use your real name.
The only blog that I follow where the author uses his real name is Craig Murray. That blog is well worth following (on that one I like the posts, but I don’t bother with the comments below the line). I think he has to use his real name – the fact that he is a former ambassador helps to prove that he knows what he is talking about on several issues.
On the subject of your post – well, I’d suggest you read Karl Barth’s commentary on Romans 9 – 11, which I read earlier this year.
There is much verbage, nice sounding magic words which sound profound but mean absolutely nothing, but within this there are some very good insights.
In a nutshell he sees a conflict between `the gospel’ on one hand and `the church’ on the other hand. The people for whom Paul has `great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart’ are precisely the serious people in the church; they were the ones who were persecuting Jesus and his followers; they were the ones who were responsible for the crucifixion. They were the ones to whom Paul was allied in the stoning of Stephen and before his `road to Damascus’ conversion.
Barth doesn’t see any difference between the church BC and the church AD; the church (i.e. the church instituted by God Almighty himself) is at enmity with the gospel.
He somehow argues (and I confess that I didn’t really get this bit) that nevertheless, as Christians, we are called upon to operate within the church.
I think there is much truth in what he says about The Church (particularly the serious church people) being at enmity with the gospel. You see it very clearly if you look for it and it does explain an awful lot.
And it shouldn’t really surprise you if, from time to time, you find some Christians who are sick of the church and react strongly against it.
(When I read Barth, I was looking for a treatment of Romans where the author did not go down the heretical path of suggesting that Paul was talking about some sort of national salvation for the State of Israel (a line that has been abused by Christians to turn a blind eye to awful atrocities in the Palestine). True – Barth didn’t do this, which was good. On the other hand, while I did learn an awful lot about the church from Barth, I’d say that I learned absolutely nothing about Paul’s letter to the Romans from it).
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Your first point is well made and you will see I have taken it to heart; thank you. On Barth, I sympathise. Have you tried Tom Wright?
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Chalcedon – I was put right off Tom Wright when I saw the general thrust of his `New Perspective’ which seemed to put salvation first and foremost as something obtained through the church; belonging to some church fellowship was the badge, etc ……
Recently, though, a friend of mine told me that I should consider this `New Perspective’ as some sort of `experimental error’. It wasn’t representative of Wright and he recommended this one.
I haven’t sent off for it yet (and if I do, then I would like a supplier different from amazon). Have you taken a look at this one? If so – opinion? (positive or negative)
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It’s well worth reading.
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Thanks – that makes two good people recommending it, so I’ll read it.
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Barth’s system is corrupt. No one with any orthodox beliefs would look to Karl Barth. There is no truth nor wisdom in his Filioque Calvinism.
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Actually, obedience, when it is warranted, is a Christian virtue, but when it is without truth or honor, is the world’s greatest vice: Authoritarianism, not the Authority of Truth, not Political Power. The Papacy claims Temporal Political Power over all of the Earth. This is refuted by: Fromm, Erich. (1969). Escape From Freedom. New York: Discus Books/Avon Books. See also: Orwell, George. (1948). 1984. New York: Signet Books.
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God is incomprehensible (Saint John Chrysostom). We cannot hope to know the difference between generation and procession in the Holy Trinity GOD. Suffice it for the wise, to just believe John 15:26 and leave it at that, His Sheep hear His Voice, Christ’s Voice, and the Voice of Christ is in John 15:26. not in 2,000 years later Papalist Encyclicals, nor in necessarily in Patriarchal Encyclicals of the Orthodox Church, which may or may not be Orthodox, depending on the Synod of Bishops of The Orthodox Church in another Great and Upcoming Future Ecumenical Councils, provided these also are agreed to with the common Faith of All Orthodox Bishops, Orthodox Priests and Deacons, and all Orthodox Clergy, and all Orthodox Laity, Men, Women, and Children, of the Orthodox Church. God save you, Philip. God bless you. Thank you for your questions, but I don’t understanding much of what you are saying. I’m just a new child. God spare me from things too wonderful for my finite intellect to penetrate very far in. I remember, I am just a man: I am dust. But I am dust in Christ Jesus, born anew in true Orthodox Baptism Titus 3:15. God bless all of us. Amen.
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Try reading back on this blog – here https://jessicahof.blog/2017/06/30/the-papacy-an-historical-perspective/ is a good start
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Another they (the Sheep) will not listen to (another) for they know from Christ Rome is lost in heresies and the Filioque blasphemy. Rome has still not repented.
A false start. Try Photius, Mystagogia of the Holy Spirit.
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I know that the bigots whose books you read say that, that does not make them right or you less of a bigot.
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Well, now if I’m looking for a rude word, I’ll say FILIOQUE! It makes a welcome change from PIMHOLE!
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2912
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I have banned him. Enough is enough.
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Man, I just got my internet and cable tv. Looks like you hung in there longer than I would. 🙂
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Well, as you know, I am a patient fellow, but when it became clear he was simply posting stuff from one of the more “rigid” Orthodox sites, it was closing time for him.
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Understandable and you are far more patient than I. Must be my old age and natural curmudgeon that seems to be getting worse every year. 🙂
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For various reasons, my naturally deep reserve of patience seems to have developed reserve tanks!
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Good for you. When you reach my age those reserves have about disappeared. 🙂
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i thought id never see the day when good brother mr roman catholic chalcedon bans a brother orthyodox catholic. what is this world coming to.
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