Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
-2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
-Matthew 24:10-12
Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people, and every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king. Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath.
-1 Maccabees 1:41-43
People leave Christianity for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, they come back. The Bible tells us that Christ goes looking for the lost and that no-one can separate us from the love of God. How, then, do we understand the case of a person who, so far as we know, never came back? Some argue that the person was never a true Christian in the first place. Others say that it is possible, through a free choice, to renounce one’s salvation.
In any event, the Bible teaches that there is such a thing as apostasy. Those who formerly were identified as Christians, whatever that means metaphysically and epistemologically, have ceased to be Christians. Spiritual death is the final result of apostasy: those who do not belong to the Lord will be cast into the fire at the final resurrection, like weeds gathered in the harvest of a farmer’s field.
Ministering and holding one’s own faith in the midst of apostasy are challenges. Life has a way of testing people. The Bible tells us that God does not permit testing beyond what we are able to bear, but this does not entail that everyone passes the test.
Although each one is ultimately responsible for his own choices, humans live in societies. As John Donne once observed, “No man is an island”. The Bible teaches that Christians are part of God’s family; we are brothers and sisters to one another. This means we have a duty of care towards each other, qualified by our awareness and ability to help.
The problem of evil is something that ostensibly has caused apostasy in the Church. The subjective nature of our experience makes it difficult to be certain in this matter, as apostates may give this answer for why they left as a cover to hide deeper feelings and choices.
Nevertheless, it may play a part. This is why it is important for Christians to have an answer to this problem, both intellectually and practically. We must understand that our suffering takes place in a bigger context of free will and love. We must be willing to share in one another’s suffering. We must stoke the fires of faith, admonishing one another to hold on to Christ, to the hope of the Age to Come.
Lastly, we must not set up stumbling blocks: we must not indulge in false teachings that promise comfort of a worldly kind in this life. Such is not guaranteed. Indeed, some of the holiest of God’s people have suffered the most horrifying of experiences. Christ Himself, the Son of God, suffered the Passion.
Apostasy, of course, has other causes and effects, which the reader is welcome to write in the comments below. It is a phenomenon that is happening now and is expected to worsen as the end of the age approaches.
All Along the Watchtower 
This is simply a rather juvenile and vulgar response to people who have reached the conclusion that the primary basis for belief in the tenets of Christianity have no basis in fact and hold no merit whatsoever.
It is also used as a threat to hold people in thrall.
Furthermore, it is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.
The entirety of Christianity is ”false teachings” as its premise is built upon nothing that can be demonstrated to have any veracity.
The causes are listed above and the effects are – once the feelings of anger and shame have been dealt with – usually of almighty relief to have shed the mind numbing poison that religious indoctrination so often causes.
At least this is what most of the Christian deconverts who I have interacted with express.
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I thought i saw an apostate hiding under a bush. He ran befor i could get a good look at him.
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@ Bosco
You were probably too busy pouring whitewash down your oversize trousers. It’s part and parcel of what a clown does – the most pathetic character in the circus.
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is that so? well, i resemble that remark.
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“Apostasy, of course, has other causes and effects . . .”
This is true, Nicholas, as is the way that apostates decide to manifest themselves; how they carry out their fall from grace etc.
As our apostate visitor has squirmed and retaliated above, Christianity has little to worry about as it has withstood these ‘outside’ attacks for 2,000 years and can continue to do so with only minimum casualties. I think the most devastating way for an apostate to manifest themselves is obviously while they are still regarded as a shepherd, a teacher, a priest or pastor etc. Thus they operate from within the walls of the stronghold and do far more damage than those who merely hurl insults and lies which can more easily be repelled.
Thus, the cleaning of our own houses is far more important in our present age than manning the walls against outside assaults. If we succeed in the former the latter will take care of itself, diminishing the harm of the apostate (their causes and effects).
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I quite agree. Wolves in sheep’s clothing, false prophets, and false messiahs are all dangers in the present, taking in the vulnerable and rebellious alike. As you say, time to clean house. I hope that you have a pastor whom you trust in that regard.
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I think he means well is probably a good man though he’s a bit naive about some of things going on today and has a poor sense of the history of the last 60 years.
Sadly, we are awaiting the investigation of our Bishop now; which was dismissed in the past but now has resurfaced due to the statute of limitations in NY being opened up for a period of 1 year . . . so we will see if he is truly innocent of the charges or if it has legs. Whatever happens, I simply want justice to prevail.
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Indeed. The Church must be clean.
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For the record I am and have never been an apostate. One has to be a believer before one can apostatize.
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typo. Never have been.
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Then you are nothing more than white noise that can simply be ignored or help us get a good and restful night’s sleep.
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If you cannot me the genuine challenges encountered by those who begin to lose faith, show no empathy for their position, and do nothing but heap scorn and derision then how can you honestly call yourself a Christian?
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Ever read any of the mystics; those who practiced mental prayer . . . specifically contemplative prayer? If so, then you would know that for every grace and for every virtue which you pray for will, in fact, be tested. There is no other way for you to know if you have gained the virtue or how far away from the perfection of that virtue you might be. You may stumble a number of times and get up or you may flee because in pride you thought more of how advanced you were in the spiritual life . . . or you may stop praying which will cause you to go backwards in the spiritual life. There is no way one can stand still; you either advance or retreat. You can think of the temptation of Job to apostasies when Satan unleashed his wrath on him . . . it was good for him in a spiritual sense and the moral is that in the end (Heaven) he will be far better off than he was before everything he loved was taken away etc.
Generally speaking, the greater your trial, the more spiritually advanced the person is. You can learn from the trial, pass the trial or you can walk or run away . . . blaming God rather than your own free will. For as Nicholas said: nobody will be tried beyond their ability.
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Every person who I have read, listened to or dialogue with has walked away from Christianity solely because there is no evidence to support the claims made by Christianity, be they from the bible or uttered by fellow Christians.
I would ask, therefore, why you believe when there is no evidence to support the claims made by Christianity?
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Generally they walked away because they did not practice what they were taught and rarely, if ever prayed. Their excuse is a convenient excuse for their own laxity or lack of an actual spiritual life.
So your last question is easy. If you practice the faith that you vowed to ascent to: you need not provide others with the evidence they can only gain by developing their own spiritual life according to the Faith.
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Not so.
Most of those I dialogue with were thoroughly devout. Many attended church two or three times a week, were involved in bible study, youth outreach programs and some were even involved in ministry.
Of course they prayed! What a bloody stupid thing to say. They prayed even harder when they felt their faith was slipping and when they approached family , friends or even a-holes like you, this was the typical response they received -sanctimonious and condescending.
One blog pal (including his wife and kids) was ostracized by his own family and all those who were part of his church community. He was literally cut off. They call it shunning in his church and even now after several years he is still not on 100% terms with family and friends.His story is a real eye-opener if you fancy reading it. His name is Nate Owens.
I can post links for you if you are really interested and maybe you could ask them yourself?
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And what, pray tell, would you know of what devout means as you have admittedly claimed to never had a spiritual life of Christian belief.
And then, do you think that Christianity after 2000 years is a united belief and that each sect of those who have divided over the years are of equal legitimacy and objective truth?
And again, what do know of prayer since you do not practice prayer; and what do you know of the types and kinds of prayer that exist?
It is not sanctimonious to point out simple facts that you obviously are unaware; many of my own parishioners are not well versed in our teachings. It is a spectrum as in all things. The janitor in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory is unlikely able to build or to launch a successful rocket. Such thoughts are foolishness to the extreme. Even those who are advanced in the spiritual life have their trials, and as I said before, they are usually prone to more sever attacks than those with little faith. How can I answer for unknown persons, on your, uninformed and uneducated perspective, to judge their spiritual lives as being in a high state of advancement? My dog knows about as much about that as do you.
And am I to listen to Nate Owens and believe the words of one who has fallen away? What can I know of his interior life? If you choose to believe his self-assessment and excuses then you do so because you want to. It is impossible for a man to know the interior life of another; even those who seem to embody a life of goodness and enthusiasm . . . do you not think that diabolical narcissists do not fool people and gaslight people all the time? Politicians are a prime example of such people.
No, I speak of verified peoples lives that died in sanctity. Read, THE ASCENT OF MT. CARMEL by John of the Cross and then you may question me further concerning the spiritual life. And if that is too hard fore you to understand then try to read, THE SPIRITUAL LIFE by Adolphe Tanguerey.
Perhaps then, you will know enough to engage in a reasonable debate rather than throwing hand grenades at phantom enemies that you’ve fantasies about.
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Are you being obtuse on purpose or have you a problem with basic comprehension?
The fact there are thousands upon thousand of different christian sects/cults is clear indication that none of you can agree. Make it up as you go along, would likely be closer to the truth.
I don’t have to have personal experience to understand the mechanics any more than you don’t have to go to space to understand what’s involved.
When you point out any simple facts that I am unaware of then I might retract my accusation. Until then …
He is one example. There are thousands.
You could try the clergy project.
At least there you will find former professionals – those who have attended seminaries – who were made aware of the hogwash from the outset, and many never finish seminary because of this very reason.
You will discover that many of their testimonies have a similar feel, but all hinge on the fact there is no evidence for the claims made by the Christian religion.
That is the truth,
Surely you are not afraid of it?
Or perhaps you are?
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Why fear the weak? Of course I have no fear of a womanish opponent too stubborn to admit that there are things he does not know and can never know unless schooled in it?
Take up my challenge to educate yourself and we can speak at a later date. As it is it like talking to the beasts. Your rants are boring for one reason only: you know nothing of what you speak about and place your trust in humans who have failed in their pursuit of establishing a spiritual life. And you never met people who went to college (a seminary is a college) who basically learned nothing of what they studied? It is common sense that many such people exist . . . in fact most colleges and seminaries have declined over the past 60 years not only in what they are taught but in how to think. High School students now have a reading level lower than those of an 8th grader just decades before. It is a fact that dumbs down those who pursue such careers as is the loss of morality and nuclear families in our society. And who’s fault is that? It is rhetorical but it is obviously the Godless left wing progressives that are simply pawns of the Father of all lies.
Read something and then engage. Otherwise you simply sound like an hysterical woman who has been rebuffed.
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I was actually referring to the testimonies of those over at the clergy project.
But your immediate need to try to defend an untenable position by throwing out an insult tells me you are afraid to confront the demons at your door.
That smacks of cowardice right off the bat.
So, you don’t consider the bible adequate enough?
They have not failed but triumphed, having opted for reality instead of the emotionally crippling dependency of religion.
I salute them.
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I’m sorry that you are too stupid to understand what I wrote. I tried to write in simple sentences for your benefit. But the fact is you will not read anything worth reading but continue to act like you have all the information you will ever need to know to discredit Christian faith. I can’t think of a person less qualified at the moment to carry out such a lofty task. As I said before, my dog might make a better opponent.
No, I don’t think reading the Bible is adequate. One must understand it first and also study those things which are difficult to understand. And I am not a ‘Bible only” Christian. The Church is alive, with Christ at its head and the Holy Spirit helps to develop its teachings so that we might uncover the countless mysteries therein. It is like taking an acorn and envisioning a full grown oak. If it is the first one you ever saw, you could not fathom the final end. The story of Christianity is still being written by the Church and its development. It will falter at times and then correct itself . . . it is a process just as our individual spiritual growth is a process. But indeed the acorn (or Bible) is indispensable: for without it there is no birth . . . and without birth there is no life.
Your idea of triumph is insane . . . if you’re ‘reality’ is ignorance stemming from a refusal to swim. You see a few people drown and decide that swimming is foolishness and so never try to swim yourself. Truly this is simply fear or cowardice.
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Then rather than discuss with one whom you consider ”stupid” perhaps you should engage those why have deconverted?
This ois why i recommend you read the the testimonies of those over at the clergy project.
At least you would be discussing with people as educated if not more so than yourself who have – in the vernacular – been there done that got the T shirt.
And there all sorts, from Southern Baptists to Catholics so you ill not be short of material.
Again, surely you are not afraid to go head to head with these folks?
After all, we are not talking about a handful pf people here but hundreds and hundreds.
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We do not ban anyone (even the fallen away) until they simply show their invincible ignorance; which may be the case that fits yourself as it might with them. Such people have come and gone in the past; including Muslims.
But your presence here is about as useless as I might be commenting on a forum about designing computer chips for the future. I never read a book on computer chips or worked in a factory that makes them and know nothing of the subject. It simply makes no sense to participate. You have proved this incompatibility time and time again and it’s simply lunacy for you to think that you have something to contribute to any conversation that might ensue on this site. You have no credentials or experience and are simply talking in hopes that it will end in expletives. I would be more inclined to ban you as a troll but I would have to get the owner of the site to do that. Therefore, I gave you an opening if you care to take it before I contact the owner; simply read a few books or take on the challenge of trying to develop an interior spiritual life. The kicker there is that you actually have to be a man of good will if you did embark on that path. Fakers get no grace and thereby no benefits.
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Again, why are you so afraid to confront those whop have been where you are and walked away?
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I answered that in my last comment. I’m not afraid of them as I am not afraid of you. You got your chance and so will they if they come (and they have come and gone in the past). But if you’re out of your depth, which you obviously are, why are still banging on about it? Why not contribute to a website where you actually have something in common with the people of that forum? I’d rather you do that or take up my challenge to read the books recommend to you. If not, what is your purpose here? If nefarious, then why shouldn’t we ban you?
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No, you didn’t answer it you merely brushed it off with another asinine insult.
I never suggested you were afraid of me,and yet you feel the need to tell me. How peculiar.
Again, as you are unable to provide evidence for your claims I can understand why you are reluctant to engage.
This is the nature of faith.
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No, the evidence is in the doing not in your asinine talking from behind the wall of disbelief. You draw your own conclusions as you like; for after all you can’t see over the wall and wouldn’t believe anything on the side of the wall that is beyond your sight. Nothing for you to gain here. See you in the funny papers.
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Your rhetoric is indicative of one who is standing on thin ice.
Remember, you are the one making all the positive assertions regarding your faith. Don’t you think it would be a measure of your integrity to at least offer some of this evidence you claim to have?
After all you have spent most of this dialogue indulging in ad homs and denigrating those who deconvert.
Surely you have the evidence to support your claims and demonstrate the veracity of your assertions regarding apostates?
You claim not to be a coward so how hard can that be?
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How would you know anything if you never had faith before? You’re trying to characterize and tell people who do have faith what it is or isn’t. That’s simply stupidity.
And your evidence that there is no God? It works both ways. The evidence in the practice of the Faith and the development of an interior life; something you can’t even have a window into if you have not ever tried to have a Christian spirituality.
Is it cowardice to refuse to read a book that I’ve suggested so that you might have a basis for an intelligent reason to be here? I think we all know who the real coward is.
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I don’t need to read such a book. I have read the bible and I have read the testimonies of numerous deconverts, all of whom walked away fr the reason I have told you – lack of evidence..
As I said, it would be better if you simply provide the evidence you claim you have.
This would be a slam dunk so what are you waiting for?
Let’s see if you are able to put your money where your mouth is shall we?
My money is on yet another hand wave excuse and yet more vacuous insults.
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You still don’t get plain English. How’s this: the evidence is interior. For you to get this evidence you must get an interior life with God. period. full stop.
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Oh, I get it … and this is why so many people admit this is nonsense and walk away.
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Indeed so. More succeed than fail, so why is that?
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Yes, indeed! Deconversion is very much success.
Stop indoctrinating/exposing children to religion for a generation -just one generation – and see how quickly the world becomes secular.
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The world has always been secular and always will be. It is a sewer of moral corruption for that very reason. You young pups don’t have a clue.
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It’s not only lack of evidence, but lack of outcomes. How long does it get to meet its objectives? Pile on the excuses! Religion must be protected and propped up by laws because it really cannot stand on its own merits. Faith is simply an imagination that is held deeply, and challenging that faith is an affront to hope. People will pay dearly to keep hope. Scoop is quick to point that disbelief is womanly weak, but alas, faith is the biggest weakness held like a pacifier out of insecurity.
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It tells you something when he has to resort to weak …. and sexist ad homs.
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Any time you question faith you are challenging the validity of the believers hope and then the adrenals fo the rest. It’s hard to argue with a physiology
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Could you qualify what exactly you mean by faith?
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Sure, you know the definition I’m sure. Faith is a tightly held imagination you hope is true—then defending your right to hope with an argument. Faith is also a state of mind that allows mediocrity to supplant achievement. A thought conviction without substance that allows hope to feel real.
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I think Christians would probably challenge your definition in both general and specific terms. There might be specific beliefs which both you and I would reject, but the rejection of which would not invalidate Christianity as a whole. In general terms, we might wish to make a distinction between “easy-believism”, which you rightly reject, and believing something for the right reasons. Faith is an element of empirical knowledge, because experience does not provide certainty. Analytic deductions, obtained a priori, do not require faith because they provide one with certainty. In a sense, one might as well be God when one knows these propositions – there is no possibility of being mistaken. But one cannot know with certainty the general claims inferred from (or perhaps imposed on) a posteriori knowledge. In that regard, Christians would observe that everyone uses faith – even atheists. The question, then, is not about faith in general, but about the particular objects of faith that atheists and Christians contend over, and the justification of belief in those particular objects.
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How very entertaining. A mary worshiping catholic and an atheist fighting over who is right. I havent been in here for a week or so because ive got my hands tied in other catholic blogs. the rank and file catholics are falling apart because so0 many priests and bishops are being found out as child molesters and those who cover for them. They cover for them because they are one too. They call it a scandal. Its not a scandal, its what the catholic church is. What its always been. If these mary worshipers werent bothered by the inquisition, why are they now all of a sudden bothered by some child abuse.
Atheists and catholics., two sides of the same coin. A few yrs ago i forced the big shot catholics in here to admit that their god is Lucifer. Atheists wont admit that their god is Lucifer. Thats the only difference i can see in the two ideologies.
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Atheists don’t have any gods. But you know this, of course.
And why would an atheist have Lucifer, an entity constructed solely from the imagination of insecure, power-hungry religious fools?
Only a trite ignoramus who invariably paints himself into a corner would throw this ridickulous assertion into an argument.
But then, what does one expect from a clown?
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Hello ark, hows it goin. thats the weird thing, if you dont have the Son, you dont have the Father. That means…if one isnt saved, one is following his master Lucifer, know it or like it, the unsaved have Lucifer as their god. Same goes for these religious people. they dont have the Son, they have religion and graven images and costume holymen.Atheist and religious people have something in common….you both serve Lucifer. hey, just like id did befor god reached down into the toilet and pulled me out. Im no better than anyone else.
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How on earth would an atheist serve an imagined, ficticious character?
And considering the verbal diarrhea you regularly spew forth I would strongly suggest you are still in the crapper, Bosco – up to your superstitious ignorant neck in it, in fact.
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hello good sister ark. you unsaved serve your master in various ways. you serve him with your violent denial of a creator of heaven and earth. you are a high priest of Lucifer. you preach his sermons. you lead people to believe his bible.
But not to worry, its never to late as long as you are alive.
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There are probably two likely reasons for an individual to write in the manner you do: As an exponent of some form of fictional literature, or, you are suffering a form of mental illness.
Of course, to avoid the truth, and to confuse matter further, either example would then claim to be the other, and without the proper facilities to test, one will simply have to take an educated guess.
Taking into consideration the general reactions I have read from others on this site, I am going to opt for the latter.
I sincerely hope you stay away from children.
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The apostasy has already happened but people keep clinging. “They shall wander from to and fro and from the north and even to the east to seek the word of the lord and shall not find it” Uh, when was the last credible sighting or hearing the word of the lord, other than a few self proclaimed nut jobs? This is a neat little trick to keep people waiting for something the writers knew beyond a doubt no one would ever hear the word of the lord again (except by imaginations, seizures, etc) All anyone has about this religion is guesswork and fear. Nobody is coming, there is no church of god. There never was.
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Good brother Jim, organized religions is what has given a belief in god a bad name. The catholic church being the biggest offender. The muslims think catholicism is christianity and they hate it and what its done to peoples all over the world.
There is a god and his son is his express image. Those people whom he reveals himself to are not part of a religion or church. You dont see them on the news, they dont have a headquarters or a bank, or a whole country. This site happens to have a frequent visitor who happens to be one of those.
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Everyone thinks the others are doing it wrong. In this I agree. However you want to brand your faith, it is belief itself that is the curse mankind must transcend. The Bible has played masterfully on the foibles of human psychology. Condemn pride and call faith a virtue, which is actually stubborn pride in its purest form. Thought convictions in an imagination backed by hormones. They say too, the natural man is an enemy to god, then give points for something man can’t help but do—believe! Everyone feels obligated to have some belief. The natural man is the gullible, believing man. Deceived and gullible since birth and believes nearly everything they are told. If humanity is to progress beyond this 2000+ years standstill, we must get beyond belief mode and it’s stifling divisiveness.
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Good brother Jim, i cant help what every person does and you cant help it either. you are responsible for Jim.
You know, since recorded history all tribes and cultures have believed in some god or another for creating this and that. They were all convinced that something more powerful than men were responsible for everything we see. This lasted until now. We have a face for god now….his Son. But this new thought, this new ideology, this modern educated man has decided that there is no reason or need to invoke a creator, of any kind.Of course god wasnt happy with all these false gods, you know what really slaps him in the face…..is men believing nothing created things. Nothing is your creator. The universe came from nothing. Nothing designed the human form and physiology. Nothing guides the migrating birds , nothing holds the bands of Orion, nothing brings forth bread from out of the earth. So this nothing is the design of the new smart man. Pitiful hopeless man. When you die you are just gone….poof, nothing. Get caught killing and torturing kidnapped children… just kill yourself and you escape punishment. thats the ticket. bye bye, thank for the wonderful time…..im outta here. this encourages more sick wackos to do the same. hey, it cool…..just shoot yourself in the head and nothing. Blank. Foolish man. Dont you know what a man sows he will reap. Your spirit that you dont believe in never sleeps, thats why you dream at nite. Your spirit will continue on after your blade of grass existence is cut down. Did you know men will be in their bodies in heaven or in hell? Its not a spiritual place. itts a real physical place. Dont ask me how that works. But you will be somewhere when you die. The soul is immortal, and i think you know this.
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I never said that when you die you are just gone. I have many thoughts on that that are more credible than a god. There are more plausible scenarios than Jesus creating the universe. Billion of stars that reach out long before your creation story was manipulated into existence by men of power. The story is just not compelling or based on anything but hunches in the void of knowledge. Science has actually replaced god in every discipline except creation, but I suppose the natural order of elements finding their attractions happened long ago as it does now. When your Bible was written people were afraid to go in the mountains because the gods and devils lived there. Now it’s a field of study. Just as dreams and neuroscience has explained the processes quite well. Btw, I rarely dream at night, but when I do I understand the natural swelling and cleansing, washing of the brain and the meaning of those dreams is nothing but rejuvenation of my neurons, and possibly shared unconscious experiences with other dreamers if anything. But Christians used to convict people because of dreams. That’s how true your church is. Our understanding of these things like spectral evidence is certainly not god.
This game we are playing has been going on millions of years or more and will continue on long after the Christian god is only found in the mythological record. Every god has come and gone and this will too. Our challenge is to surpass belief mode and start living in the present. We’re on our own and probably should act like it versus waiting for a savior
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