Richard Barker reports on a recent English court case concerning Christians, freedom of speech, and bars to education and employment, including commentary by Andrea Williams of Christian Concern (whom I myself have met in the Crown Court).
Praise the Lord for the landmark legal ruling overturning a High Court decision and allowing Freedom of Speech, thus enabling Christians (and others) to express their belief in public and declare the fullness of scripture without fear of judicial, educational, professional or business-related censorship, intimidation and unemployment.
In A Victory For Christians Everywhere Andrea Williams, Chief Executive of Christian Concern and the Christian Legal Centre comments on the judgment handed down this week in the case of Felix Ngole, the student who was expelled from Sheffield University for expressing Biblical views on sexual ethics (emphases RB),
“I am delighted by this victory for free speech. The judges in the Court of Appeal have ruled in favour of Felix Ngole and against the university, saying that he should not have been expelled merely for expressing his Christian views. His expulsion was a serious violation of free speech that threatened Christians and…
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All Along the Watchtower 
That is great and yet very sad that such an obvious human/religious right had to be waged in court in the first place. I guess it shows how far we have fallen.
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The UK in particular, whence the USA derived much of its ideology of liberty in the Revolutionary years. NEO calls the Revolution the Second English Civil War, and so did my own father years ago when we lived in the States. This victory at least offers hope of a reblossoming of the tree of friendship between our two nations. But all is not well.
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Yes there is long road ahead for all of us.
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I have submitted two more replies of the same comment …. still nothing is showing.
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One more time …..
I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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It beats me. Maybe Nicholas knows more about WordPress than I do and can look into it. Not sure if its on your end or ours but we at least are still getting some of what you wrote.
Maybe God didn’t like what you wrote. 🙂
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Or maybe a demon has possessed the software?
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Could be.
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I have rewritten it five times and submitted it in various places on this post and not one has appeared.
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The question is, why are we getting these but not those? Are you formatting differently in those comments?
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No. Nothing different at all.
I have typed the comment direct and also in Word then copied and pasted.
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Sorry, I tried to see what words are banned and I do not have that level of privilege.
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How many links did you put in the message if you did add links? If I remember correctly this site only accepts a maximum of 2 links per comment.
You may also try going to the reader and drop the comments in there. It is the only way I can Like a post for some reason. Also my noticon bar does not work on this site. I usually use the noticon bar at NEO’s site to reply to comments.
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I just typed it again. No links, no formatting.
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Something must be different in the comments that aren’t coming through and these comments that are . . . but it is quite puzzling to be sure.
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Somewhat disconcerting that’s for sure. I’ll have a go via reader.
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Worth a try.
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It shows . Thanks!
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Should appear now. Was filed in trash, which is disconcerting.
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Thanks, Nicholas.
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Good luck in the trenches.
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Not so bad. I think we are just about done here. I am just trying to get a better picture do the man behind the screen name.
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Bosch thought it was a woman.
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Yes, I noticed that and also the lack of saying yea or nay to the question. So I am uncertain as well.
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The reverence for Egypt is interesting, but Egypt’s chronology is problematic. Egyptology is actually quite poor in various periods for text, whereas more survives from the classical period.
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I rely little on such things. It is enough that I have received signal graces (a sub-species of actual grace) all my life. They are of course what I needed and may not work for others. But I am sure God gives everyone something to help them turn their eyes to God and draw them into His family of saints in heaven.
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Okay, now they are all showing! Please delete all but one
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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Are there particular words that will not past muster on this site?
I didn’t use any bad language, nothing blasphemous, inflammatory or defamatory.
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I think the owner of the site does have a few but I’m not sure I have permission to look into it. I’ll try and then get back to you. Even if they were caught in the spam filter they should be able to be found and I can’t find any that were in the spam group.
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I’ll try one more time and type direct here …
I said I was raised a cultural Christian, in as much as the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and Church during Scout Parade. That was about it.
Later I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background info on Moses. It came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as at best a composite and probably a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity.
While I never held any stock in tales f
miracle, eventually I realised there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I ask every believer I interact with to produce evidence. To date, no one ever has.
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That came though just fine.
Now all of your past comments are repeating themselves and populating the screen.
Of course, it depends on your sources that claim that Moses is a composite and ‘probably’ a fictional character. But that’s fine. Skepticism is worthy of our attention but then so is the other side of the question. Simply reading the Bible with a bias that it is fictional might not be as helpful as reading some other material . . . especially the saints, especially those of the modern era where they were examined via modern scientific and medical authorities. Just saying, that to be fair one needs to examine both sides from a non-biased point of view. There are tons of theology books and moral theology books that are rather captivating as well as the lives of saints, public miracles, recurring miracles (such as the blood of Januarius) etc. that are certainly evidentiary and viewed by large numbers of people every year. There are the relics of bleeding hosts that have been examined by modern science that all appear to have turned to flesh. And coincidentally they are all pericardium muscles from the inner chamber of a human heart: Type AB blood, when it can be analyzed . . . also typed from the Shroud of Turin.
So I guess it has to do with where you stop searching and exploring the faith. If you read nothing but the negative I’m sure that you will eventually draw a conclusion that the ‘evidence’ precludes its authenticity.
I understand. All I can say is that there is a wealth of material that is too much for any man to read that comes to the opposite conclusions that you have drawn.
But in the end, you have to decide. So if your mind is fully made up nothing short of a personal miracle is likely to change your mind. That’s OK because there is always hope up to the last breath on our deathbeds.
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Note though that Jesus warns about the return of the dead not persuading the living in Luke 16: the rich man and Lazarus. Manetho the Egyptian believed Moses was real. Douglas Petrovich appears to have found a reference to Moses on a stone from the Sinai Peninsula, carved in adapted Egyptian hieroglyphics.
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Nothing I have read yet has shaken my belief in Moses as a real man. Do I want to know every side of every argument for and against this: not really. I am at home. I only hope that he isn’t at home with his philosophy and hope that he will not be another fulfillment of the non-believing living given in Luke 16. They all seek signs but none will be given except the raising of Jesus in 3 days.
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Indeed. My interest is primarily for exegesis since contextual knowledge can be helpful.
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I understand completely. As you have probably seen I do not take a scholarly approach to most questions and ideas. I process truth in parables of sorts. I figure if it helped the uneducated of the Jews understand the truth then it should work for me and many other today as well. They are timeless ways of presenting the ineffable in ways that people can chew on in their quiet moments.
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Indeed and that parable approach lends itself to ethics, prayer, and contemplating.
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It does and quite often brings a new parable to mind, a new metaphor or analogy. They almost keep unraveling themselves which deepens my understanding.
I have even used this approach when I studied science, mathematics and philosophy. I found it hard to memorize equations and proofs that were theoretical so I devised a way to make an analogy so that even when tested for SAT exams and ACT exams I could get the right answer without knowing the methods which they taught.
Sadly, I am not a hard worker like you and so many others. My IQ has tested rather higher than my accomplishments and knowledge would indicate. I didn’t even finish college. Quite often I never finish anything. So I don’t put a lot of stock in those tests anymore but I still place stock in creating parables for difficult things to understand.
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That’s kind of you to say. I’m more of a plodder and explore things from different angles as the years go by. I like to be fully persuaded, where possible, hence my journey from pretrib to prewrath, etc.
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Well its served you well and I can see a maturation process in your comments over the years.
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Joel Richardson and Said Showboat influenced me there in some regard, because they both talk about the journey – Showboat became Catholic.
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Interesting. Has Showboat written anything about his conversion? I love conversion stories and am always interested in what made them do so . . . I do miss (Joel ?) Richardson’s blog and his conversion story. Do you remember him?
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I think, owing to counterattacks, Shoebat moved to a new site, so it might be Shoebat.net or .off or something. Basically, his journey started negatively, by seeing the failings of American evangelicalism, then he got into the history of Catholicism. I’ll see what I can find for you.
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Thanks it might be an interesting read.
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http://shoebat.com/2016/01/17/90919/
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I’ll browse about there and see if I see something. Thanks.
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This article takes a negative view of the Shorts. I generally don’t,’t read his stuff now as I find Joel Richardson easier to engage with.
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I find it rather tedious reading and fueled primarily by interpretive prophecy. So not so structured as was Joel’s writing and explanations. I wonder where life took him. He was smart young man and I’m sure he’s done well since he quit the internet scene.
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Indeed, I do not read Shoebat’s stuff now – he is mired in controversy. Joel Richardson lives in the US but frequently ministers in the Middle East, usually in Kurdistan. He did a video this week from there. His YouTube show is called The Underground.
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Thanks for that. I’ll look for that.
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Sorry. Wrong name. I was actually thinking of Joseph Richardson who not only had his own blog but commented here for awhile.
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Yes, I remember him. No idea what happened to him. I think he’s a Brit, isn’t he?
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No. As I recall he lived in Alabama and was getting his doctorate. Once he got his doctorate he seems to have ended his blog and joined the real world. If memory serves, his conversion to Catholicism from protestantism had something to do with a miraculous event that happened to him after or during an automobile accident that almost took his life. Memory fails me as to the details.
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Interesting: I wonder if he saw the BVM.
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I wish I could remember the name of his site because if it is still up, though inactive, I think he had some posts about it.
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I found it. His site was called The Lonely Pilgrim: http://lonelypilgrim.com
Looks like he last wrote something there in Feb. of last year. I may search the site for his conversion story and see what I find.
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Thanks, I’ll go read it again.
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Interestingly, his story actually has some parallels with my own.
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Isn’t that interesting? Now I really have to go and have another read of it. 🙂
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He was a good writer wasn’t he? I miss him. I guess I mixed up the car accident and the idea of the miraculous (concerning his conversion) when it was simply a miraculous recovery. But the chance invitation to the Catholic Mass seems to be catalyst that got the ball rolling to he eventual joining of the Church. An interesting road and he has ended up with a wealth of philosophical, classical theological knowledge coupled with ancient languages (as did you). I wonder if he is still teaching.
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I can understand his desire to be part of a living body stretching back to Augustine etc
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Indeed so. That feeling of an unbroken connection is important to many of us.
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It is interesting that he addresses one of the main reasons I rejected Rome : the Magisterial. I also have concerns about abuse by priests, and the extreme veneration of Mary. I feel God would prefer me to go direct to Him
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How much have you read concerning the role of our Blessed Mother? I found it rather beneficial for men and women to have a connection to the Lord through His human mother and her immaculate heart.
As to the abuse of priests . . . I find it somewhat expected that Satan would do his best to destroy the Church Christ founded. So it is a negative affirmation of the Church just as the satanists who risk life and limb to break into Catholic Churches to steal the consecrated hosts in our tabernacles. Sometimes I think satanists believe more in the Catholic Church than do many of our own members. Though that is a post Vatican II development.
Magisterial, for all of the mistakes made, the one thing that has never failed us is the passing on of de Fide teaching no matter how many outside and inside try to destroy it and or undercut it by practices which are antithetical to the actual teachings.
The survival of the Church until today is almost miraculous . . . as we have had so many enemies within and without the Church. Its very presence is of great solace to me personally.
It’s hard to explain but one feels that no matter how hard we seem to try to defile the Church that the teachings are still there for the finding . . . no matter how hard they try to hide the truths and sully it. I guess I think of the Church as undergoing the same thing as Christ had to endure except during its long history.
Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.
I expect nothing less to be associated with the sufferings of the Church.
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Another equivalent quote that I think can be made for the Church as well is this one:
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
One merely needs to change the word he to her and him to her to describe the bride as she imitates our Lord in the world. She will be mocked as was Christ and will be seen as unseemly to many. And others will not want to be seen with Her or identified with Her . . . they will hide in the upper room and only 1 of the remaining 11 can be seen standing at the foot of the Cross with His mother. And to that one . . . Mary was given Her first spiritual son. And John received His spiritual mother. And so she is ours now and we are her children as she is our mother in faith.
Thus veneration for her is termed hyperdulia as it more than we would reverence our saints. She represents the Church and has raised up the children that will be Christ’s for all eternity.
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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Excellent news.. We don’t want countries like the UK to devolve into fascist states.
Let the man speak, for goodness’ sake How else is anyone going to engage and enlighten the poor fellow on how ridiculous and erroneous the bible is.
From the linked article ….
Although, as the bible is nothing but geopolitical historical fiction what truth is being referred to here is beyond me
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Are you from a long line of atheists or are you first ‘enlightened’ one in your family?
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What an odd question.
What relevance is it to the post?
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What relevance was your comment?
I am authentically curious about you since you are new to this forum. It is a fair question and it might say a lot about you. For instance, are you angry at God, the Bible and Divine Law (which is evidenced in many of your replies) and that is the reason for your refusal to believe? And is it predicated because of your addiction to a particular or multiple penchants for the sins that are revealed by Scripture, the Christian Church and taught for thousands of years?
If yes, then the obvious place to start is confronting your self-evaluation which in your mind invalidates the Teachings of Christianity. Therefore you would naturally reject it all for purely personal reasons.
So do you come from a family of believers or not? How about your grandparents and great grandparents etc.? Have you broken ranks with your own patronage?
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How can I be angry at something I don’t believe in? Please don’t behave stupidly.
I was raised in a culturally Christian home, but was never a true believer.
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There was that so hard to admit?
What held you back from being a true believer when you were raised Christian? Was it the quality and or lack of quality of you particular church/parish? Or was it that you saw no reason to follow the moral mandates because you wanted to or were already breaking these ethical/moral mandates?
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I used the term cultural Christian.
When I was growing up, England was generally considered to be a Christian nation – It isn’t any longer.
This cultural Christianity involved a short spell of Sunday School and the occasional visit to church – usually during Scout parade.
That was about all there was to it.
I never gave it a second thought.
Much later, I wrote a fantasy novel and required some background for Moses. When I realised there was no evidence for this character I read the bible from beginning to end and began to do more research into Christianity.
Eventually I realised that, based on the complete lack of evidence, it is simply geopolitical historical fiction.
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Sorry, Scoop I have written two replies to this comment but each one has disappeared into the ether.
Maybe they are somewhere on your side?
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Sometimes WordPress is a bit quirky. Nothing came through here either. I can see your responses to Richard as your last ones that came through.
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I’ll see if I can remember what I wrote ….
Hang on a bit….
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That’s fine. I also checked the spam filter and nothing was found there either. Not sure what happened and I think most of us have experienced the same thing at one time or another.
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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🙂 Maybe I should have asked you to produce evidence that you really sent a reply. LOL
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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Hi – been there, done that, worn the T-shirt – and from the same icon!
Then when I nearly died and saw I’d be dropped into hell I immediately understood the Bible actually IS true, all of it! Wot’s more, my encounter with the One I didn’t believe in was all part of it and why I got to live and be be ‘born-again’.
SO life’s been a never-ending adventure for 30 years…and will continue thus… THANK GOD
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Hi, Richard. I suggest you keep looking out for those signs of Jesus’ return,
And while you are waiting why not read the bible? All of it.
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Yep, plus the extra direct stuff – which is why it’s f ar better to get out of man-made thinking! Be good for you too to get the shock of your life, as in https://richards-watch.org/2019/05/10/how-churches-turned-me-off-christ-and-onto-new-age/
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And what evidence do you have Richard for all your claims?
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First Ark…, you and I are both ‘signs’ of Jesus’ soon return because of our having fallen from the Christian faith of parents and nation, thus being part of the foretold great apostasy that’s gathering momentum. (Many other signs have manifested or are about to be.)
Secondly, the evidence is with you in my authoritative witness to you personally as an ex-leader of a group that saw its founder as Egypt’s one-god pharaoh and presumes to continue its ‘mystery schools’; and who’s since experienced the error of those ways through the grace of unwillingly coming into a relationship with the real living God. Take it or leave it…the choice is yours – (hint) freedom is better.
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None of this is evidence.
Start with evidence for the Resurrection of the biblical character Jesus of nazareth.
This should keep you busy.
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As Jesus is the one who loves us and died for each of us let Him be Judge: I expect a sincere apology, which will be accepted. Were I a non-Christian I’d treat your over-weening arrogance and presumption with the utter contempt it deserves.
It demonstrates your inability to think clearly because it was only natural for me to check out in-depth the empirical and historical facts behind what had happened to me, especially the Resurrection because that’s part of what gives Jesus authority over the hold satan had on me. It also pinpoints the source of your issue.
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Praise God you were delivered from darkness into the knowledge of God’s love, and that in turn you have ministered to others in that love.
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This is simply indoctrinated apologetic drivel.
You obviously do not understand what evidence is.
However, as you seem to believe you do have evidence for the resurrection of the character Jesus of nazareth then stop equivocating and present it
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Thanks for re-blogging this most important news Nicholas.
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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I said I was raised a cultural Christian , in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. And that was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character.
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracle claims, eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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Scoop
I said I was raised a cultural Christian in as much that the UK was once considered a Christian nation. It isn’t any longer.
I went to Sunday school for a spell and church during Scout parade. That was about it.
Later, I wrote a fantasy novel and needed some background information on Moses and it came as a surprise to discover he is now regarded as a fictional character, or maybe a composite (Martin Noth?)
It was after this that I read the bible cover to cover and then began to research Christianity. While I never held much stock in the miracles eventually I realised that there is no evidence for Christian claims and the bible is little more than geopolitical historical fiction.
This is why I always ask those believers I interact with to produce evidence for their claims. To date, no one ever has.
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Dang, how many times you want to say that pitiful speech.
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Don’t blame me … Talk to word press. I also asked the host politely for all but one to be deleted.
But for you, sometimes being somewhat dense, it is perfect.
Maybe after you read them all you might begin to understand? We can but hope, yes?
After all, repetition is a form of indoctrination and as a Christian you are the embodiment of this. Should be right up your street … or up something .
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Yeah, well i was told just once that christ is alive and want to know me. Less than 2 hrs later is was changed. No indoctrination needed for me. Others, just take a look at em. still stuck in webs of religions, no matter how many time they hear the gospels.
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And how fortunate for you that it was religion that gave us Jesus Christ in the first place!
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The fictional view of Moses is the consensus among scholars and archaeologists.
Again, there is no evidence to support the foundational claims of Christianity and the bible is primarily geopolitical historical fiction.
If you wish to convince skeptics – as well as deal honestly with believers – then produce evidence to support your claims.
To date, you like every other Christian never has.
Please delete any repeat comments.
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Petrovich is a Creationist …. I think we can dismiss such nonsense don’t you?
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I notice you mentioned that, ”I do not take a scholarly approach to most questions and ideas. ”
And this is the problem you will always have when discussing any topic related to your religion/belief.
As I mentioned previously, rather state you hang everything on faith and are not interested in evidence.
This is a far more honest approach.
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I notice you mentioned that, ”I do not take a scholarly approach to most questions and ideas. ”
And this is the problem you will always have when discussing any topic related to your religion/belief.
As I mentioned previously, rather state you hang everything on faith and are not interested in evidence.
This is a far more honest approach.
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Simply parroting what a scholar has said is not necessarily a sign that you are doing any thinking on your own. If you can manage it, making a metaphor or parable of a difficult concept is much more helpful. Christ did not try to communicate with the scholars, he probably grew tired of their philosophizing when he was teaching in the temple at age 12.
He came for all men (after all many of his apostles were not the most educated of men). . . so the concepts should be as simple as possible. So He taught them hard concepts in terms that anyone could understand.
Science tells us the same thing: the simpler the equation the more likely it is to be right. It is called the eloquence of simplicity to some. E=mc2 is simple to understand and it is quite elegant.
A metaphor or parable can have the same effect. What Einstein did was make the difficult explanation of Relativity real to the masses of people. Christ did the same.
So is wrong to read the more scholarly arguments around but then put them in a simpler to understand way? A way that might help somebody not schooled in the sciences or rules of logic understand it in a more natural way? So don’t pat yourself on the back as if a parable, metaphor or such is ignorance. There are many approaches and if you want to have long philosophical explanations in detail it is next to impossible to do in a comment box on a blog. But a short, boiled down truth, might lead you to accept or reject a position held by another without wasting alot of time or space.
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You keep making biblical references as if you are dealing with fact.
And as I have been at pains to point out, without any evidence to support your position you are simply making empty claims.
So hen you can substantiate such references then we have a foundation for discussion.
Meantime you are simply ”parroting” scripture.
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. . . and becoming part of a living memory. After all that is why Christianity hasn’t changed or vanished. It is kept alive by this living memory.
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Ark’s position rests within the Hitchen’s razor, or maybe Russell’s teapot. However, the position is poor epistemology and if taken to their conclusion logical conclusion contradicts itself.
Ultimately, Ark wants spatiotemporal evidence for the divine being that exists outside of time and space. It’s an absurd request, especially when asked what he would accept as evidence, as Nicholas has done, he says he doesn’t need to present it—How convenient!
Again, resting on the Hitchen’s razor is incoherent for the atheist position, as the position is a claim to knowledge. For example, if one takes the position that all observable phenomenon come into being are contingent on something else for its existence is the base observation. The claim to knowledge is whether the contingency rests on chance from a non ending cycle of contingent created beings, or rather the other claim to knowledge that there could be unending cycle or there would be nothing; therefore there must be an uncreated necessary being for contingent creatures.
Therefore, after the observation of creatures the world, an agnostic position would be a claim to no knowledge by the very etymology of the word. Theism and Atheism are both claims to knowledge; therefore, Ark has just as much of burden to bear as anyone here when asserting any form of Hitchen’s razor.
So, again for a fruitful conversation, there must be a definition of terms. What is evidence? What is God? or What evidence would convince a non-believer? If these things cannot be stated then there is no possibility to have any fruitful dialogue.
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Well, said, Phillip.
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Excellent points Phillip. And yes, it is why I more interested at this point to find out more about the person Ark rather than the Ark (non-argument) stance which seems to be like a judge who will not allow the defense lawyer to present his evidence before the trial begins. Nothing will be accepted into the record that is not self-evidentiary to the judge . . . and Ark has set himself up to be that judge.
I also wonder about what makes a person break with the though of their patronage. Faith of our fathers is simply bunk in other words. That’s why I would like a more definitive answer to the question about his lineage . . . where they came from and believed and why perhaps he broke from the inherited knowledge of his own past. Did the living memory die itself or was it never there? I don’t know but it would be interesting.
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Evidence is evidence. If you can provide evidence for the character Jesus of Nazareth as depicted in the bible then we have a conversation.
Otherwise all you are making is a claim. A claim that has no more substance than Harry Potter.
Again, all we are dealing with is geopolitical historical fiction.
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Evidence is evidence? No, that’s a tautology.
I think unless we could agree that there is a God or that there can be at least evidence for God exemplified in my example then any type of historical argument for a particular religion wouldn’t be fruitful.
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There are no degrees of evidence.
There is either evidence or there is not.
Re: ”God” (sic)
Even if I were to agree that this ”God” exists, you still have your work cut out demonstrating that the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is this particular god.
But by all means …. be my guest:
demonstrate that Jesus is your god.
After all, surely you wouldn’t believe something unless you had evidence, right?
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No one would be able to make the case for Jesus to be God unless one could agree to evidence that there is a God.
There has to be this established foundation before any fruitful textual historical argument on the person of Jesus of Nazareth. If Christianity is wrong it doesn’t follow that there is no God, but for Jesus to be God there must be such a being.
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On that case, for the sake of this particular discussion let’s say Yahweh does exist.
Your task is to demonstrate that the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is the same god.
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Good sister ark, ive shown you where the bible is archeologically correct many times. You dont want to deal with it.
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Again … Bosco the Clown.
By all means enter the fray, but please, answer the question.
demonstrate that the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is ( the same) god. (God)
You’re up Poindexter …. let’s see what you got.
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I believe its in the book of Isaiah…..Say unto the cities of Judah…behold your God
Plus i know him and have walked with him and trusted him to feed me and shelter me. i know who he is. No one can do such things except they be of god.
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Scoop, to your 3 July 10:23, I’d like to add – and this is really the prime point in the whole discussion – our direct personal relationship with and thus being in Jesus and His/our Father plus Holy Spirit through whom we are led into Truth. Thus, in having direct access to the Author we can learn about His Word and how it applies in our lives. I was floored when He showed me directly about those mystics claiming descent from Akenaton and ancient Egypt. (Details in my linked testimony)
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I am grateful that the LORD has never compelled me to see demons in the spiritual realm or visit Hell, as some people can testify. One testimony that particularly struck me was the author’s point about the feeling of hopelessness in Hell. You know there is no release, which makes the agony worse; whereas on earth, we have hope in this life (even if a false hope), which allows us to survive our angst. In Hell, all the deceptions we use to hide from the truth are stripped away. There are no atheists in Hell.
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