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Authentic? Are Demons Forced to Speak Truth in an Exorcism?
02 Tuesday Jul 2019
Posted in Faith
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Is this post a joke?
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Only to non-believers.
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Aahh … so I was right, then.
”Begone foul succubus!!” and all that, right?
So explain why ex-Christians, and in particular , ex-Catholics realise that all this is nonsense once they deconvert?
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Because they most likely never were taught their faith which has been pretty common since Vatican II.
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Really? You have evidence to support this assertion?
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Of course. The catechism was not taught to children for approximately 60 years now. In fact we didn’t have one that was approved from about 1965 to around 1995 and it is not being taught except in traditional parishes.
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Sorry, I didn’t phrase that question properly.
I meant , what evidence do you have of demons.
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John Wayne Gacey, Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Vlad the Impaler, Mao, Vendee, Cannibalism, Child Sacrifice, Abortion, Sodomy. Murder, Che . . . the list is legion.
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<Funny that you didn't even mention Torquemada.
But what evidence do you have for demons
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Whatever that’s supposed to mean.
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I said the list was legion. You surely have seen the demonic in your life or read of demonic people . . . we could spend a lifetime showing the effects of the demonic at work.
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Well, as you mention those other unsavoury characters why didn’t you include Torquemada ?
Obviously not as this is why I asked you to provide evidence of demons
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Pray tell did you ask when the evidence is all around you?
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No, this is just a claim. I would like you to provide concrete evidence that we are dealing with Demons.
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If I were you I would not be asking for concrete evidence as the only thing that would convince you would be for you to experience demonic oppression or possession . . . and I wish neither on you. Oppression is common enough and you will notice it forever after you have experienced it. But possession is pure torment that even drives some to suicide and it is very rare. So you ask me ostensibly to conjure up demons which is evil; it is participation in the occult. Take it or leave it but don’t ask to have it proved to you as you know not what you are dealing with.
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Nonsense! I don’t need to be a drug addict to see the effects of such addiction. Neither do I need to be schizophrenic to understand schizophrenia.
Likewise for demon possession.
And I never ask for proof, merely evidence.
So, once again, do you have verifiable, concrete evidence of the claims you are making?
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You say you understand schizophrenia and drug addicts etc. and accept them . . . probably on the word of medical doctors and psychologists that have given their records. But I dare say there are those whom you can recognize as such and then there are those who are truly afflicted that go undetected by you. Such maladies are not always to recognizable. And I would say that since possession as such, if one accepts the words of the exorcists who actually deal with such, can tell you that it can look very much like a variety of psychological disorders. That is why in the modern era so many psychological and medical experts are the first recourse before exorcism is even attempted.
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No: I said I do not have to be a drug addict to understand drug addiction. Although I was addicted to nicotine for forty years, but perhaps you would not consider this evidence?
Yes, I would rely on qualified medical professionals to confirm schizophrenia, but , doctors notwithstanding, I have a layman’s understanding of it.
Again … what evidence do you have to support your assertions that demons exist?
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I have a layman’s understanding of possession and demonic oppression as well. I can understand it as you say you understand the others. However, I am not qualified to distinguish it from other maladies were I to see it or be in its presence.
It just so happens that I have been in the presence of some extreme evil and in places where extremely evil things have occurred. I admit that not everyone feels the oppressive sense one feels in those instances but if you have ever been one that has . . . you will recognize it again if you sense it even if you cannot explain it to those who don’t.
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You are simply tossing out theological double speak.
Once again, do you have verifiable evidence for your claims?
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No, I cannot introduce you to those who live in a plane different than the one we inhabit. For that is the reason after all that we speak of the natural and supernatural. So you look for natural explanations and evidence for the supernatural . . . and you will not accept fingerprints, eye witness accounts or the subsequent success or failure of an exorcism.
This video was simply given as per explanation to Nicholas earlier. You want to keep banging on about the supernatural and verification. We aren’t interested in you your doubts about God or the supernatural plane. You either accept it or do not. Obviously you do not. So why are you here.
The only conversation worth having is with other believers about whether or not this might be considered a negative indictment on the Second Vatican Council or not. If you cannot speak to this then there is no longer any fruitful dialogue worth having to be discussed between us.
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”Other believers” should be allowed to have evidence presented as well and not rely on the testimony of snake oil salesman.
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The story of ‘doubting’ Thomas in the Bible is rather instructive if you would allow it to be. If we could point to the happiness being enjoyed in heaven and the torment of those in hell and you could plainly see it with your natural eyes and understand it with your natural intellect then you would be forced to accept it . . . although that would not be belief per se. You would know that following the natural law which is only the fingerprints of the supernatural law of a Creator would then give you the choice of picking one of the two destinations of your human soul . . . for it would simply be a known fact fueled by love of God or fear of God . . . the happiness of heaven and the misery of hell. So what virtue is there in seeing and accepting? Obviously the virtue is in Trusting God and believing in His promises though you have not seen. Evil has its uses and believers do understand that God has the ability to use evil to bring about a better good.
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Yes …. story . Evidence? I don’t think so.
So, when put on the spot all you are able to espouse is theological rhetoric.
Why are you would be perfectly willing to provide evidence of any number of things and insist such evidence be provided when claims are made yet you are unable to grasp the concept of evidence when it comes to your faith ?
Is this a mental block because of indoctrination or are you purposely being obtuse?
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The best ‘evidence’ as you forever like to beg for is within yourself. Through prayer and perseveringly asking for the gift of belief you might just find yourself one day believing that which proves itself to you alone . . . and thus it is with each of us.
You remind me of a man who tried to build up his muscles by lifting weights and after doing curls with 5 lb. weights saw no effect and thus said it does not work and then gave up. It takes persistence for most and hard work. It is why the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius is called ‘Exercise” . . . it needs to be done repeatedly.
Now you might say that the evidence is in the body builders which you can see all around you who have succeeded in building muscle. You can see the before and after.
But you discount that there are great athletes in spiritual development as well; including martyrs and saints and ordinary people who have overcome great obstacles in their lives due to their faith. The life of Padre Pio or a Solanus Casey would do you a world of good to read. It would be equivalent to reading a book on how a 98 lb. weakling became Mr. Universe.
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Again, you are not trying to brow beat a backslider.
I am an atheist. You drawn out rhetoric is meaningless.
If you have evidence present it. If not then simply say this is based wholly on faith.
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Whether or not you have tried to build up your body or whether or not you actually, with good will, tried to find faith is not the issue. What you don’t even try to do is quite germane to the fact that you do not possess that which others possess and we cannot lift the weights for you or give you our faith. That has to come from inside your own soul; to fill an empty vessel you must start at some point to allow a drop of water in.
I’m sorry that life is so meaningless for those like yourself that think that their consciousness is simply some random act of nature and that when they die it is just as mysteriously annihilated. What a miserable existence that must be. No hope, no meaning to anything. No reason to love for how can the evidence of love be expressed even to yourself; it must simply be some chemical reaction in the brain.
My prayers for you and other unbelievers:
ETERNAL GOD, the Maker of all things, remember that the souls of unbelievers have been created by Thee, and that they have been made after thy own image and likeness. Behold, O LORD, to thy dishonour, with these very souls hell is filled.
Remember, O GOD, that for their salvation thy SON JESUS CHRIST underwent a most cruel death. O LORD, suffer not that thy SON be despised by unbelievers; but, appeased by the prayers of holy men and of the Church, the Spouse of thy most holy SON, remember thy own pity, and, forgetting their idolatry and their unbelief, bring to pass that they may at length acknowledge thy SON JESUS CHRIST, who is our salvation, life, and resurrection, through whom we are saved and set free; to whom be glory from age to age without end. Amen.
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Meaningless?
Good grief what a thoroughly arrogant revolting thing to say.
I have been nothing but polite if a little strained and all you have done is fie back meaningless indoctrinated diatribe.
At least have the integrity to admit you have no evidence.
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You still do not see how utterly senseless is your tirade. It is hard enough to explain the difference of beauty from the ugly or harmonious from the discordant to a person with both sight and hearing. But without either it is impossible.
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i have both, thanks all the same.
And still you persist on this mindless charade.
All I ask is for you to present evidence of your claim of demons.
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If you cannot give me evidence for what is considered beautiful and ugly, harmonious and discordant how shall I give you evidence for something much more deeply hidden as an indelible mark on men’s hearts and souls? There is some self-evidentiary(ness) to all such things and yet they are not evidence as you ask for. You cannot go to a lab and prove the existence of love or hate.
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Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not?
If I need to explain the difference between harmonious and discordant ( and thus show evidence of) then maybe you need to see a therapist? Or you could always read a dictionary.
So, still no evidence?
Does disengenuity sit well with you or are you immune to it because of your patent indoctrination?
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Just to set the record straight, I was an atheist and was not indoctrinated. But I still sought objective Truth; that truth which exists whether I believed it or not. So I found that for which I sought by going to where the evidence is by the way that countless men and women went before me. Nothing makes sense without a Creator . . . the evidence of creation itself is enough to set most men upon that journey. God has left his mark on our souls and has put that desire within us though we have the ability to deny it by free will. I couldn’t go back to living like a robot as you do. Once you are disassembled at death one would say that there was no meaning and no reason for being at all and that was an existence that signified absolutely nothing at all.
So if you want evidence then go to the source via the road that leads you to the evidence. For the evidence of the Saints who were so close to God that they could see him as through a thin veil, can be your lot as well. Read St. John of the Cross, especially Ascent of Mt. Carmel or the Dark Night of the Soul. I could suggest others but that would be a nice start. Only God will self-evidently show himself unless He has great need of you and grabs you as mightily as he did St. Paul. But ordinarily it will take your own cooperation and will to get the evidence you so desire.
And you must want this evidence awfully bad since it is all you can talk about.
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Good sister ark, good brother scoop wont say the name Torquemada because it exposes the moral poverty and bottomless depravity and evilness of the beloved religion where he puts his trust of salvation in. I pray he comes out and seeks the risen Christ.
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Only to non-believers.
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Of course. The catechism was not taught to children for approximately 60 years now. In fact we didn’t have one that was approved from about 1965 to around 1995 and it is not being taught except in traditional parishes.
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An interesting video, though I take a different view on some matters.
A) In the Second Temple period, demons of the kind seen in the Gospels (as opposed to the gods of the Gentiles) were understood as the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. Their motivation for infestation of a host was to regain a body. 1 Enoch refers to the Nephilim as “bastards” and “hybrids” owing to the illicitness of the union and different species of the parents.
B) Over time words like “angel” and “demon” were expanded beyond their OT usage, and became simply terms for the light side and the dark side beings of the spiritual world.
C) There is a hierarchy in the spiritual world on both the light and dark side. Many of the times where the word “demon” is found in English translations of the NT are actually “daimonion” in Greek, which is a diminutive form (“little demon”). It is not entirely clear whether this was interchangeable with “daimon” in the minds of the writers, or whether they meant to use “daimon” for fallen Watchers, etc and “daimonion” for the Nephilim spirits.
D) The term “satan” (“adversary”) came to be used of the figure we sometimes call Lucifer, but this role could be performed in God’s court by a good angel. We do not call prosecutors evil in our human courts because we understand the process to be adversarial by nature. Thus the satan in the Book of Job is probably not the evil being who tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, though one cannot be certain (see also Talmudic discussion of this point).
E) I am not convinced that demons are bound to tell the truth during the casting out process. The NT does not encourage believers to obtain information from demons during this process and actually contains narratives of them being told to keep silent. Lies are often more easily swallowed when they are mixed with truths. As a motivation for conversion from one branch of Christianity to another, the testimony of demons is problematic: I would rather be led by God than by demons.
F) There is Protestant testimony of casting out demons, which suggests that any believer in Christ may obtain authority from Christ to do this, not simply Catholic clergy.
G) The predominant term for casting out spirits in the NT is not exorkizein, but ekballein, which means to cast out or expel (it being the Greek cognate of Latin’s expel).
H) The “hort” root in exhort, which is Latin, means to encourage. An exhortation is an encouragement or fervent request to do something. The ex- prefix at the beginning simply intensifies the verb. In both Latin and Greek, prepositional prefixes do not always indicate direction. Often they are simply intensifiers.
I) The statement that modernist Catholicism is whoring after Protestantism is an interesting one. As a Protestant, I find Catholic attempts at Protestantising their faith offensive in various contexts.
I)(i) It is subversive of Catholicism. Subversion is a malum per se: if you do not like the nature of the club, you should leave and start a new one or join another one, not corrupt what already exists: that is a kind of Catholic “genocide” or “suicide”, destroying the sine qua non of Catholicism.
I)(ii) It offends me to see people try to appropriate Protestantism without actually accepting the logical consequences of Protestant doctrine. Protestantism is incompatible with Magisterial Catholicism. If you want the real advantages of Protestantism, convert and denounce the things you rejected in Rome.
I)(iii) False conciliarism is harmful. I appreciate the honesty of traditionalist Catholics (though not the rudeness and anger I have encountered on some occasions). Their honesty allows me to make an informed decision. It is probably true that the main reasons why I have not crossed the Tiber are what Catholics themselves have told me or said to others, not what Protestants have said of Catholicism (although, of course, there are ex-Catholic Protestants).
J) There is ample testimony of demonic activity, for which the atheist is in much the same position as he is regarding the biblical narratives. He may not get the chance to see overt demonic activity in his lifetime, but that does not rule out the possibility of demons or the truth of the testimony. He should examine the various testimonies and treat them on their own merits, just like any other eyewitness source. My own pastor, during his missionary days, knew a pastor who cast out demons.
K) With the video hosts I concur on the issue of human souls acting as demons: the Bible seems to suggest that unrepentant humans are incarcerated in the Underworld after death, so it is more likely that the demons names mean:
K)(i) that they are lying;
K)(ii) that they are the particular spirits that infested the historical figures mentioned; or
K)(iii) that they have chosen to use names of historical figures as nicknames.
L) A distinction must be made between mental illness and demonisation (of course, both may be present in a given individual).
M) Christ teaches that it is not always expedient to cast out demons: if the host does not fully embrace Christ, more demons may return and gain a foothold, making the host’s latter condition more wretched than the former.
N) Some practitioners now avoid the traditional methodology of deliverance ministry and use an approach that it more akin to counselling. They hold that the shouting, etc often does more harm than good and that the long-term goal is to lead the person to fully embrace Christ and trust in His salvation and love. Deliverance is likely to be more efficacious if the host is more proactive in renouncing evil and embracing God and truth. This approach is controversial, however.
O) Derek Prince’s book, “They shall expel demons”, is a good starting point on this topic, written from a Protestant, Pentecostal perspective. Derek Prince was a Cambridge-educated classicist, who served as a medic (nurse?) during WWII and was invited to speak at times in Catholic churches.
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There undoubtedly is much confusion on the subject and doubt as to which cases might be true possession or simply psychological illness. What little I know about this I read in Christ’s Biblical accounts, the accounts of respected exorcists of Church . . . most prominantly the accounts of the late Fr. Gabriel Amorth.
The reality of evil spirits however seems to be something which is the spiritual equivalent of those who wish us ill in this life . . . though they play for the highest stakes, the loss of the peace of heaven for the soul.
I don’t know if this case would pass muster with those creditable exorcists or not. Amorth was rather careful about exhausting all natural causes before he would take on a case . . . Malachi Martin also did the same. However, Amorth did say that in our times there were more exorcisms needed than were being performed especially with the loss of qualified exorcists . . . as many in the Church quit believing in the supernatural realm and attributed everything to the natural or psychological realm.
My interest in this one was two-fold. In the first place the words of Michel concerning things that not even many well informed churchmen knew about, and secondly the interesting comments on the changes that had taken place in the Second Vatican Council.
So I put it out there for people to come to their own conclusions. We have the positive accounts against things from the Council and the other changes from VII and we have the fruits of the Council such as the devastating poll numbers and then we have even the (demons-if that is the proper word or not) from the other side. It is at the least interesting. It reminds me of what the great Dietrich von Hildebrand quipped about the Novus Ordo Mass: “Truly, if one of the devils in C. S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters had been entrusted with the ruin of the liturgy, he could not have done it better.”
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I think it is a genuine account, for the reason you have given (assuming the audio recordings are genuinely her and at that time): a young girl is very unlikely to have known those things or been able to formulate the analysis. Would her parents have coached her to say them? – very unlikely. We have no evidence that they were people of that sort.
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That is why I too at the very least give this case the benefit of being “somewhat credible” if not “fully credible” in the arena of the smell test, if you will. Though it is certain, given the things said about VII and the NO that the Church (as it now) will never give this case any credibility at all. But then that is political baseball . . . and both sides have reasons to believe or disbelieve for obvious reasons.
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Quite. In other circumstances, one would refer the matter to an independent arbitrator. But that would be difficult here. The Protestants and Orthodox have reasons for rejecting Catholicism qua Catholicism, so there is a problem of bias potentially. Atheists reject the supernatural, so all one can really do with an atheist arbitrator is ask him to proceed on the assumption that theism is true, much as one asks a valuer to proceed on the basis of assumptions and disregards during the process of rent review.
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Regarding Marian apparitions, I believe that she has occasionally appeared to Protestants and Orthodox, but understandably that is a rarer phenomenon and still has verification issues.
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Usually hard to verify, I agree, though Fatima seemed to be quite public and yet still those who witnessed the miracle soon went back to their doubts in a short time. Literally thousands of non-believers were witnesses and it was front page news at the time. But God always endows us with free will and we have been given the choice to believe or disbelieve.
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Why on earth would the virgin queen of heaven bother to show herself to despicable protestants. She only deals with Mary worshipers. And all the saints in heaven are catholic. You see, heaven is the exclusive domain of the catholic church.
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This page is search results for posts on exorcism at Triablogue:
https://triablogue.blogspot.com/search?q=exorcism
Many of these entries contain testimony taken from books and other sources. The posts also analyse material from a Protestant perspective.
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Whether the matter is miracles, apparitions, dreams, visions, or demonic activity, the questions and analysis can basically be broken down as follows.
-Is X possible a priori or is it self-contradictory (what is self-contradictory is not possible)?
-Is the claim of a synthetic kind, requiring a posteriori verification / falsification?
-What kind of evidence would establish / support the claim?
-What evidence/data is available and of what kind(s)?
-How can the data be interpreted?
-Are there good reasons for valuing one interpretation over another?
-If the event and interpretation are decided upon, what does it mean for us in broader terms: theologically, morally, metaphysically, physically?
—
As far as I can tell, demons are possible a priori.
The claim that they exist is a synthetic claim, theoretically capable of verification a posteriori, but not a posteriori falsification.
Evidence in support of their existence could include:
-seeing physical bodies (or traces of them, e.g. footprints) of demons if they have bodies
-seeing a person who has a demon acting in a way prompted by the demon (body gestures, words, looks, etc)
-seeing a demon in the spirit world (e.g. via astral projection)
-having a demon yourself
-receiving testimony of the above from an honest, mentally healthy, reliable witness
Actual data:
-Some skeletons may belong to the Nephilim, the old bodies of the demons according to the Intertestamental interpretation of Genesis 6 (though see issues around interpretation)
-People have seen other people behaving strangely and some of these witnesses have passed on those experiences
-People who have met demons in what they thought was the spirit world have, at times, passed on this information
-People who have had demons have, at times, passed on reminiscences of these experiences
For records of these experiences, see the entries at Triablogue, and books by authors such as Father Gabriele Amorth and Derek Prince
The data can be interpreted in various ways:
-fraud
-mental illness
-physical disease
-optical illusions
-demonic activity of some kind
The best interpretation will depend on the facts of each case. One cannot honestly say that all such cases are fraud, etc. Some appear to be fraudulent, others point in a supernatural direction.
Factors to consider when favouring one interpretation over another include, but are not limited to:
-What the subject and those in his/her circle of family, friends, and acquaintances knew or were in a position to know
-Whether the subject in “demonic mode” shows physical traits/acts that are not possible according to physics or are extremely unlikely
-Medical and psychological information about the subject prior to the experience, including evidence of mood changes, consumption of drugs, and brain abnormalities
-The motivation for fabricating data/interpretations or favouring one over another (e.g. a desire for money or attention)
-Similarities between experiences
-The possibility or impossibility of faking something (e.g. through mirrors, digital projection, etc)
The existence of demons is obviously significant: given the possibility of demons lying, information obtained from them must be treated with caution. The existence of demons in and of itself does not prove that Christianity is right (as opposed to other religions0, but in combination with other a posteriori knowledge, it can be used to build a cumulative inductive case in support of the proposition that the central claims of Christianity are true.
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I think that is a fair analysis. Demonic possession is rare and among those that are claimed there is not as much evidence as one would expect due largely to the following:
Exorcisms are usually not announced and permissions to perform one are usually secreted as to protect both the exorcist and the possessed from being subjected to unwanted questioning, endless inquiries etc.
They are performed privately and only close members of the family and the attendant exorcists know what went on . . . except when the recording and or transcription of what transpired is somehow leaked, sold or given to gain some notoriety.
But certainly, if true, it opens the realm of the supernatural to which all of Christianity presupposes. The loss of the sense of God and the loss of the sense of the demonic are not therefore strangers. When we lose the sense of either then we quite often weaken our belief or lose our belief in both.
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Indeed, and I think Max von Weber’s sociological analysis of the disenchantment of the garden is salient here.
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I’m afraid I’m not familiar this. Can you summarize?
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Max von Weber, who is the originator of the doctrine of the Protestant work ethic, was a German sociologist of the 19th century (I forget if he lived into the 20th).
He argued that our departure from the mindset of the medieval period, begun by the Renaissance and excellerated in Enlightenment, meant a departure, among other things, from thinking supernaturally about our existence. We stopped believing in miracles, angels, demons, and direct interaction by God with the world – all this as a consequence of our scientific and technological advancement. As we came to describe law of nature, much that had been attributed to spirits etc was attributed instead to the workings of nature, and the metaphysical lost prominence until most people simply stopped believing. This is a simplistic summary, but it will do for now. I don’t think his analysis is perfect, but it isn’t awful either.
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Indeed. It does sound like the ideas that have infiltrated our religion in this modern age. We have turned from the supernatural and placed much emphasis on secular humanism. We often seen our religious leaders acting more like social workers than as those who are helping to guide our souls and deepen our relationship with God or to live in imitation of Christ.
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Yes – rarely outside of Pentecostal and similar churches do you see meetings for the purposes of spiritual warfare etc.
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Yes what step backwards in the role of the Christian mission.
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We’ve come a long way from the sort of Church where the supernatural was just part and parcel of the Christian life.
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Indeed so.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disenchantment
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Ahh. Very good. Thanks for the link.
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