
Scoop caught in the act of trying to think a profound thought.
Time and movement is life, thought, sight, sound, suffering, joy and all other realities that we experience in the human condition. It even seems to be both the essence of life and being, space and existence itself.
Take music, for instance. If one were focused on a beautiful piece of music with no other thought in our mind we are carried along, almost as life itself is carried along by movement that exists in time. If time and movement freeze then the string being plucked or the horn being played would not vibrate and therefore it would not be like a still shot of a particular group of pitches, it would cease and lose its being. In other words it would ‘wink out’ into absolute silence or nothingness.
The same concept can also be applied to both sight, thinking, emotions and everything else that we call life itself. For without vibrational waves, in time, we have no neurons firing, we have no vibrating electrons to produce light and no thoughts whatsoever or a means to experience anything; no suffering, no joy, no love, no nothing. All are dependent on that life by which we were given through time and movement and seems utterly mysterious; at least to me it does. So without time and movement it might be conceived in a manner of how some view death of the living when the heart stops, the brain quits thinking, and the nerves quit firing. But it is even more than that; It becomes the void where all light, sound, thought, feelings and existence itself ‘wink out’; and all measures of life simply cease and being itself falls into a void of nothingness. Everything ceases.
So it seems to me that religiously if we are to accept that God created the entire cosmos out of nothing, that this seems rather apt. And when John says that ‘In the beginning was the Word . . .’ it seems not only apt but a great mysterious event which seems to have no other better argument for why there is existence itself. And to boot, how do we imagine space if not with time, movement and speed? And can any meaningful understanding of size and space exist without the others? Thereby the cosmos itself becomes utterly non-sensical in such a thought experiment as this.
The Word it seems to me is the first act of creation; for a word spoken is dependent upon a thought, a vibrating voice, a meaning and thus an intelligence, that creates both time and movement and sets into motion a creation of that which is ineffable to our understanding. Where did the thought originate and how is a Word proclaimed that in and of itself lies outside of time, space and movement? Being itself, which God expressed as His Name, ‘I AM Who AM’, but can our created human minds truly understand or grasp the concept of a pre-existent Being as we are contingent beings. For we do not exist outside of time and we are made void if time and movement were to end. And the space we occupy is dependent upon the same.
So we are left with the mystery of whether we are part of that vibrating voice in time, space and movement that He uttered and that it will not return to God void. So we are left in almost a nihilist understanding unless we somehow posit that the Word spoke by God is Life itself and that He desired that His Life, which somehow does not require time and movement, was an act of Love so that other beings, made in His image, might be spawned as children created and birthed in a womb of earthly realities; that is to say of space, time and movement etc.
Heaven then seems to me to be a new birth from this life into a New Life which is far beyond anyone’s capability of understanding. For it is a share in the very Being of God Himself, Who needs neither time, movement nor space to exist. He simply IS. This eternal moment doesn’t even scratch the surface of what such a state of being might be like. We have no examples to compare it with.
Just sharing some thoughts which are far above my pay grade; which at my age is non-existent. I guess for this retiree all time and movement has stopped economically since it has simply slipped into the void and ‘winked out’ of existence. See? I think I’m onto something here.
Good post.
When God created all of the material particles and fields of energy at the Big Bang around 13.7 billion years ago…He also created the mathematics, physics, and chemistry to accompany these material things.
I like to think that He also created time…to slow things down…so that He could also create the capacity for human beings to experience things spread-out over time.
God lives in a timeless environment (Isa. 46:9-10)…and His pronouncements, suggestions, and instructions…instantaneous in short moments in time…would not have the same lasting value as lessons that can be learned through events and circumstances…spread over intervals of time.
I also think that this is how biblical faith is accurately defined: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1).
This concept of biblical faith certainly describes the life-script of Abraham waiting for Isaac the son of promise, Joseph in Pharaoh’s prison, and David being chased by King Saul…waiting for promises of God to be fulfilled…over time…from point-A to point-B.
These things could not happen with anywhere near the same quality…without the dimension of time.
Again…thought-provoking post. God bless, Barton
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Thanks Barton. It simply came to me as I was pondering the death of an old friend who’s whole life was his love of jazz. He listened to it as life itself. It has time, movement, emotions and therefore music in a way has a life which you cannot hold, touch or measure in any way. Though it seems to a creative act like the creation of man; a beginning and an end and its sole purpose is the pleasure of the creator and those who are ‘children witnesses’ of this creative act. All, of course, are but reflections and for the glory of the Creator God who is the Composer and Artist of all things. And thus, began my thoughts about how interesting is John’s saying that in the beginning was the Word. For that act in and of itself begins time, movement, space and being itself.
Glad you liked the post and you make some interesting comments which I agree with wholeheartedly.
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Very good and can readily and easily ‘jump on your train’ of thought Scoop. Could comment at length but v busy so you may care to dip into one of my series ‘Scripture and Science’ by putting your ‘toe’ into https://richards-watch.org/2017/01/12/revisionist-prophecy-and-fresh-insights-on-jesus-christs-role-in-creation/
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I’ll try to get time to read the whole thing: just skimmed the article for now. I like the quotes and had many of them in mind as I wrote this. I kept it short and sweet for the kernel of that which I think can work toward our Christian faith and also, for the unbeliever, make them even more nihilistic: “There ain’t no life nowhere” as Jimmy Hendrix said.
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My posting proved a tad ambitious in juggling the downloads I’d been getting, and so it ended up in three parts. I hope it’s not too complex.
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Thanks Richard. I still plan on going back and reading but many Dr. appointments right now and little time to do very much. But hopefully I’ll get more free time toward the weekend.
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Trust they’ll go well for you as we had that last month when my wife had major key-hole surgery plus unscheduled follow-up one. So she’s regaining strength after a difficult year – and fascinating how the Lord shows He’s with us through it all. I praise and thank Him for what He’s about to do for you too.
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Thank you for your prayers, Richard and glad you wife is regaining her strength. I’ll pray for that as well.
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The Hendrix quote: (there’s NOT) NO (life) – mathematically two negatives make a positive, don’t they?
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Yeah, but not in a musical lyric I guess. But the outcome is the same in my mind as well: there is life and there is Life to come.
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Definitely..good to chat, but back to blogging as this is my full day b4 long weekend off and there’s more on what’s happening here!!!
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Indeed so, my friend.
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Say, good brother Richard, I took a look at your article, or what ever that was…your blog I guess its called. I have one of those too. Mine is a hard hitting cutting edge scientific work of art.
Anyway, you mentioned dark matter. Astrophysicist and other busybodies use dark matter to explain why galaxies look like they look and do what they do. Silly rabit, there is no darkmatter. Its the forces of plasma that holds galaxies in their shape. Plasma even is the reason for bar shaped galaxies. You can see how plasma acts in the laboratory. For the life of me, I don’t see why these guys just don’t accept the science and toss out that darkmatter voodoo.
Oh and Jesus upholding all things….He keeps atoms from flying apart, even though they shouldn’t be there, …you know, the neutrons and protons that close together. Don’t get me started….theres tons more.
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I liked the thinking in this piece; it chimes well with my own thoughts, which are influenced by Kantian transcendentalism. We can understand that, from our perspective, these concepts pertain to the epistemological and the metaphysical.
Epistemologically, there are concepts that are so basic, we do not even realise we are applying them to experience: but we are. They are necessary for us to make sense of the world around us. Some of these are shared by animals, but our own versions have been elaborated. These concepts are not derived from experience: they are necessary preconditions of the human version of experience; so, they are a priori.
However, within our subjective world, we cannot say that our experience of the world is an accurate reflection of how the world is. Claims about how the world actually is are metaphysical claims. So, we must have a kind of faith that allows us to accept that, in principle, we are connected to the world and can knowing (something) about it. This faith that bridges the gap is necessary in order to maintain our sanity, and we do not even recognise that we are using it – most of the time. But, we are able to categorise experiences and people that depart from the connectedness of thought and world via perception. Examples of these “disorders” are hallucinations and dreams.
To claim that we are connected to the world via experience and that we thus have knowledge is to presuppose Truth. Various analyses of what knowledge is have been proposed over the years, but Truth must be a necessary condition of knowledge, however dim it may be in the mind of Man. Thus, once we delve deep, as you have done today, we are faced with God, who is the Truth, and the Word, upon whom the contingent existence of this world depends: the Necessary Being.
I would be obliged if you would continue this as a series, drawing on your own reading of Christian philosophers (and pagan should you desire). Philip would enjoy them too, I expect.
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I do get off on such speculative thoughts from time to time. I would perhaps like to do a few more of these as I have skimmed the surface on some of my thoughts concerning atomic and sub-atomic theory . . . as the building blocks of all other ‘scientific’ explanations on everything: which I find incongruous at best.
Right now I have been occupied on a creating a pdf (ebook?) on “Our Search for Objective Truth”. As you might imagine it is more of an apologetic for the Catholic faith but it might find some appeal to others if for no other reason than it might spawn some vigorous debate which would help me to perhaps find some new arguments and search for other ways to explain that which many Catholics, and I suspect all Christians, might have a difficult time in gaining consensus from those whom they are conversing.
So, I’ll see. Perhaps if I drift off into one of my mesmerizing moments, I may write one down if I can keep the idea to a short enough piece to work as a post.
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I’m always pleased to see defences of objectivism, regardless of what quarter they come from. Catholic Christianity has produced a number of great thinkers who were in their turn used by good Protestant thinkers, so I can see great value in that. In this day and age of lawlessness and relativism, we need defences of objectivism. Paul Copan’s “True for you, but not for me?” is an excellent critique of relativism – although his Calvinism takes him into some difficult places at the end. Depravity in the biblical sense is worth exploring epistemologically and anthropologically.
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Indeed. This began when I became aware of a friend of mine’s sister who has left the Catholic faith and has been brow beating her very religious family with her new found Bosco-ish faith. She belongs to no church and pops in and out of different churches to see what they are saying. I think there is some psychological problems there as well, which I was told from a family member. So since I do not want to get involved with someone who might be bipolar (for a start) I decided to take the talking points I was collecting together in case we got a chance to talk and started fleshing them out as an essay, apologetics pamphlet or a more in-depth pdf with possibilities of growing into a book size version. Not sure where all this going at the moment. I wouldn’t mind printing it by Chapter (what I am calling Parts) but some of the chapters are already far too long for a post. So probably best to just offer the pdf when and if I get it completed.
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May your endeavour be blessed, and may that lady find the peace her soul is seeking. There is no short-cut to it. Heart knowledge, as Christians often called it, must, as Barton says above, be learned slowly. She may be having problems submitting to authority, but she will not gain that heart knowledge of the value of pastoral structures until more experience makes it “real” to her. The problem with hyper-individualism is that, when one falls short of Gods ways, it leaves one undefended. Hopefully she will find an environment that will provide her with the liberty she seeks and the discipline and community-spirit that act as stabilising influences. Where there is psychological or neurological disorder, may God bring healing.
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Indeed so and amen. I understand that she had a ‘bad’ experience in her youth and I have not yet been able to sit down with her nephew who said he would share the problem with me. So I don’t know what I’m dealing with at all and I wouldn’t even attempt apologizing the faith unless I though she was stable psychologically.
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These experiences are often problematic, because they damage our emotions and our ability to trust. We can understand rationally that a single example of X does not entail that such-and-such group is bad; but we may find our unwillingness to engage with the group practically insurmountable. My own limited experience of Catholicism has told me that, like any Christian group, there are bad apples and good apples. Finding the right church where the priest is both sound and effective, and the people are both holy and supporting, is not easy. My own church is a small church, and an incredibly loving one, but the trade off for our closeness is that it is a lot of work to keep things going. Joining a small church can get you into the heart of Apostolic Christianity, but, to do it right, you pay a heavy price. This woman may also be seeking true knowledge, as opposed to the psychologising pap you get in a number of churches. Feeding her with decent scholarship (e.g. Dr Heiser’s material) could be potentially helpful, but, as you say, only if she is in a place to receive it. Knowledge brings the temptation of pride and that may be involved with this going from church to church business: trying to get authority by dint of superior knowledge/experience, without submitting to the elders – that way leads to ruin, as many wise people in the charismatic and Pentecostal movements have pointed out.
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I’m not even sure that the ‘experience’ has anything to do with the Church at this point. It may have been a dream, hearing voices (which I understand that she does) or some other manifestation. So I don’t know what I don’t know. But I will find out probably in the next few weeks.
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You have my sympathy: these sorts of cases require real discernment as to what is actually going on (neurology, psychology, demons, intellectual-conceptual). May God grant you insight and wisdom and grace in your dealings.
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Hopefully my age will be an advantage as I have seen and been around people during my life that have displayed many of those problems and learned (usually the hard way) about how to deal with them in a way that will not push them toward a darker place. So I’ll play it by ear . . . or should I say by inspiration from God. Hopefully, I will know when or if I should seek a discussion or leave it to professionals.
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Hahahahahaaa. Sounds like this girl got born again. Good for her. The spirit took her out of that demonic snake pit of Catholicism. Great news. And now you sit back and say she has a devil. For so they trated our Lord. The servant is not abouve his master. As they treated him, they will treat us…the saved. You should invite this girl to come in here and chat with me…if you have the guts.
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Scoop, re your ‘So I’ll play it by ear . . . or should I say by inspiration from God.’ to Nicholas. May I suggest that you could ask Him how He sees the person and How He wants to help them (ie. the gift of His spirit of wisdom, understanding, counsel, might and knowledge per Isaiah 11:2). In other words, enhancing the gift of discernment.
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Yes indeed Richard. When I speak of ‘inspired’ I mean it in the spiritual sense: the workings of the Holy Spirit which include all the Spirit’s gifts. So good point but I am already onboard with that idea should the opportunity avail itself: for that is when I must make a decision and for the time being the possibility is beginning to look a bit remote anyway. But even if not, I can still pray for her depression, mental health and spiritual health. God will provide the best answer or the opportunity if He thinks I can help. If not, then He has a better plan.
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Yes indeed, His ways prove to be best in the long run.
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Simone Weil somewhere makes the comment that the lowest and the highest manifestation of a thing bear a greater outward resemblance to each other than they do to the intermediate manifestations of the same thing. The crucial difference lies in the interior not the exterior.
Similarly mindlessness and emptying the mind are apparently similar in effect, there are no thoughts present, but radically different in content since one is a radical and intentional openness to its object, whether that be music or eternity, and the other has no object, it just exists.
So attention is a deliberate act whose consequence is to empty the self of Self and fill it with the Beloved, and if the Beloved is eternity then it can be a genuine entering into and being entered by the Eternal One even now, in this life.
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That is an old problem isn’t it. Quietism as prayer became a rage and emptied the mind of the center of prayer and now we find much the same thing happening again with the new love for Centering Prayer. One must use extreme caution when delving into the mystical prayers that Christians are want to do.
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Several things spring to mind here. One can be contemplative and also do lots of stuff, like Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross. Also, the Body of Christ requires different kinds of members fulfilling different functions. Thérèse of Lisieux, for example, has totally inspired lots of very active Catholics although she lived and died within a very narrow circle and didn’t do much apart from pray. The problem, it seems to me, with Centring Prayer is not its mysticism but it’s unbalanced emphasis on one single technique and on the individual not the mystical Body of Christ.
Incidentally I’ve just written about mystical prayer on my *other* blog https://thoughtfullycatholic.wordpress.com/2019/01/08/a-mystic-manifesto/
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Indeed. And the active and passive life of prayer are not all that dissimilar as the active leads to contemplation and the passive to active works. They are not always exclusive . . . it is simply what the soul seems called to for its work of prayer.
St. John of the Cross is why I converted to the faith. I’ll try to get to your piece later today, God willing. Thanks.
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“To reach satisfaction in all
desire satisfaction in nothing.
To come to possess all
desire the possession of nothing.
To arrive at being all
desire to be nothing.
To come to the knowledge of all
desire the knowledge of nothing.
To come to enjoy what you have not
you must go by a way in which you enjoy not.
To come to the knowledge you have not
you must go by a way in which you know not.
To come to the possession you have not
you must go by a way in which you possess not.
To come to be what you are not
you must go by a way in which you are not.”
I used to have this hanging next to by bed so that I could read it daily.
A good post.
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I also meant to mention that I agree with Simone Well and what springs forth to my mind might be a post that speaks to not simply the Word but the Breath of God: given only two places in the Bible . . . once by the Triune God in the creation and the other by Jesus to the Apostles.
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Also Sirach 24-
1 Wisdom praises herself,
and tells of her glory in the midst of her people.
2 In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth,
and in the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory:
3 ‘I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
and covered the earth like a mist.’
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach+24%3A1-3&version=NRSVACE
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Good passage to keep in mind.
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Good brother scoop, you are better looking than I imagined you. And I didn’t know you are all old and retired and stuff like that. I promise to go easier on you.
Good brother Barton Jahn, id like to ask you a question or two. It looks like you believe in god, kinda. But it looks like you believe in the big bang. What is your idea of god? Some far off entity that does nothing, and the bible looks good sitting on your coffee table?
I believed in evolution, as did everyone, I suppose, and was taught that in school, and went to museums. On field trips. Even after I was born again I still believed in evo…until I studied DNA for the first time. Then I dropped evo in a matter of 5 seconds. At that moment I believed the Adam and Eve story to be true. I used to think it was a fictional account of the early humans. I was in hi school when I had this revelation.
Either you believe Gods Words or you don’t. The bible has beed right all along. The greeks though the earth was flat and floated on water. The old testament predated the greeks and it says the earth is a sphere and hangs on nothingness. The old testament says there are springs in the sea. We just found them around 1950.
Good brother Barton, may I ask you, what else in the bible don’t you believe. The closer you get to meeting your maker,the more important that one gets saved.
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