A little levity from Scoop: August 26, 2018
The Gates of Jail will not Prevail . . . or was that Hell? I do have some keys here someplace.
26 Sunday Aug 2018
Posted in Faith
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As much as id like to see the catholic clergy get life behind bars, its not going to happen. Why am I so sure? Bible prophesy says this false religious system will only be brought down by the antichrist. And why would Satan want to dismantle his showpiece? My good guess is that he wants to setup his own brand of worship, to himself, and the CC just doesn’t have the teeth he requires. Its not really a guess…its in the bible. The CC is full of fat lazy luxury loving homersexuals. Satan wants a strong lean mean gang to run his new religion. Time of Jacobs trouble…a timeof trouble not see from the beginning of the world till now.The bible says 2/3rds of israels jews will be killed.
So you see, good brother Bergoglio wont be going to prison, bishops wont begoing to prison, priests willkeep molesting…it will be business as usual in the catholic church. I ,Bosco will promise you that.
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O well, we have the word of the prophet clown to rely on. Case closed.
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Bosco is always right.
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Scoop, please help me out here. As much as I would like Bergoglio & his minions behind bars I have a hard time seeing this come to past. For one thing, he holds all the power. The dubia & all the signed petitions proved this. All the howling by the traditional press and four cardinals could not even produce one word out of Bergoglio. Now Vigano comes forth and within 24 hours it has already become he said vs he said. We will need many others to back up Vigano with some sort of PROOF. Benedict will have to come forth with a statement with proof of what the lavender mafia did to him to cause him to resign. Just listened to Ann’s podcast and she is stating that she has inside information. Here again, I tend to believe her, but those folks will have to come forth with proof. Where are they now? Maliki Martin could write books but he had no proof, so Bernadine was able to control the AmChurch for many years. We need thousands with proof or thousands with guns. If not, then Bergoglio is going nowhere.
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I think that Parolin and a few others are in charge and I think they are ready for Francis to go. Though I am hoping that if he goes, they will be found out as well. We just have to see if Vigano is going to help some others in high places to grow a spine or a set of gonads.
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Whooo hooo hooo. Good brother Michael Vorhis just lamblasted the Holy Father Lord God the Pope so hard it even made me mad. Here is the vid…..
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Hear, Hear!
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Fr. Z is posting some good articles also. See this and others.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2018/08/26-august-2018-sermon-of-fr-john-lankeit-in-phoenix-boom-mic-dropped/
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And don’t miss this. This scandal in the Catholic Church is not pleasant and I wish it were not going on. But, do yourself a favor, learn all about it so you can tell others and that we all may learn what to do in the future to avoid these sins.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/35063/walsh-francis-matt-walsh
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But what can you do? How can you weed them out at seminary level if they keep it quiet?
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Well, it took 700 years to rid Spain of Muslims. All things are possible with Christ.
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κατισχύσουσιν is more accurately translated in this context as “withstand” rather than “prevail”. The image is not that the gates are attacking the Church, but that the Church is attacking the gates – i.e. storming them. Caesarea Philippi/Panias was known among Levantine populations as the gates of the underworld. When Christ came to that region, He was proclaiming war against the spiritual powers standing behind the pantheons of the Gentiles. At the foot of Mount Hermon, He was symbolically trouncing the Watchers, who, according to tradition, descended there.
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I thought you would more likely take deference to the use of hell rather than Hades in the passage. Prevail is used in the older and the newer scholarship for good reason. The thought was that the Temple (the new Church of Christ) would stand between Hades and Heaven and that Hades (besides being the place where the dead awaited the general judgement was a place where evil forces came forth and attacked the world and the Temple. What Christ is saying in effect is that the New Temple (His Church) would not let those forces prevail against the Church. We have a supernatural guarantee of that but not a guarantee that we will not suffer losses, scandals but that the evil forces will not destroy the Church. It shall prevail and the Gates of Hades will not in that sense.
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I prefer translations to use Hades where possible, because “Hell” to some people will only mean Gehenna/the Lake of Fire, which is not the object of the verse. Hades was identified with Bashan in OT times, which is the region they were in, and the Temple of Pan there was viewed as a gateway to the underworld, similar in principle to others in Greece, Italy, and the Levant. Gates are not offensive structures, so I’m not fond of sermons and commentaries that speak as if they were.
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Actually if you have an Ignatius Study Bible the Commentary is quite good with many references to other scripture passages which make it more easily understood. I suggest you get one if you don’t have it . . . I found it worth the cost several times over.
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In my opinion, Jerome would have understand the proper context within the region and culture. He translates the Latin into the stem noun “praevalentia, -ae, and into the stem verb praevaleo” which in the present indicative active is superior force. So, in this context it would say as it is modified by the genitive portae “Gates of” then the context reads, “to be superior,” which the context of prevail fits this just fine.
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Note: the translation is in different tense, mood, and person. But framing it in the present indicative active is easier to illustrate the basic stem forms.
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“Gates of” (pulai) are nominative and are the subject of the verb. Hades is in the genitive, but it is not the object of the verb – autes is. Autes is the feminine singular genitive of autos and refers back to ecclesiam (accusative singular). Context is important – words do not have meaning in the abstract, they must always be related to something else. The image here is of the assembly (ecclesia) attacking the gates – the gates will not win the fight. In other words, they will yield up the realm they are guarding – sheol and the spiritual beings who are associated with it. Christ is predicting His assembly’s victory over the powers, seen, amongst other things, in the destruction of the pagan religions.
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Yes I made the error Portae is nominative and inferi the genitive. I was thinking single genitive with portae. However, it doesn’t render the translation “to be superior” any different as inferi just fills in the context. Words to have meaning and so does the grammar. Again, I’m just going to trust Jerome’s knowledge of the context more than you in this case, not to be taken as a dis to you.
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I understand, and no offence taken. It is not Jerome’s grasp of language that I take exception to – in my opinion he was very good at knowing when to leave words in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and when to attempt a Latin translation. It is his knowledge of the context that troubles me. Although he lived in the Holy Land, he did not live there during the Second Temple period, and that puts him at a serious remove from the NT, even though he is only a few hundred years afterwards. Indeed, I believe the third century crisis radically altered the cultural and intellectual landscape of the Roman koine, as indeed the fall of the Temple led to the death of one form of Judaism and the ascendency of rabbinism.
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I think that is fair enough for you to critique his translation. What you listed, I see it as a positive for him being more chronologically closer to the period and the languages being used, but I can understand your point.
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The reason why I think it is important is that the tone of the two constructions is noticeably different. If you preach that we will survive the assault of the powers of darkness, you are basically instilling a siege mentality. Yes, there’s a victory at the end, but the bit you focus on is hiding in the basement until the storm passes. On the other hand, if you preach that the powers of darkness will not survive our sack of their city, you encourage people to charge the enemy position; you encourage boldness. You also remind people of the Church’s past victories in wiping out paganism.
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I think of it more in the context of “Old Hickory” which was given the nickname of General Andrew Jackson for standing firm against the enemy, bending not breaking. So it’s not sitting the basement but out in your horse taking the volleys with confidence.
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Granted, but do you see how the layman will think of cowering in the basement when he hears the verse rendered this way? My concern is for good expository preaching directed at the average person. With all due respect, Philip, you are not the average person. You clearly have a sharp intellect if you can grasp points about the philosophical underpinnings behind contemporary methodology in history.
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But the readers of Jerome’s Bible and their posterity have always taught that Confirmation is our call to spiritual warfare with evil. We are in a monumental battle at the moment and we are calling for all men on deck to heed the call.
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Indeed, and that is an encouragement. I have no objection to the overall message of warfare, but I believe people who are in a position to grapple with the language of a text and its context have a fiduciary duty to obey their consciences in expounding it to others.
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Generally, that has been the purview of the ‘Church Teaching’ to assimilate the various readings which at times seem to be saying that which is opposite to another text and yet creating an understanding that is not 1 or the other but both and helps us understand the problems should we hold to only one way of thinking. What would be the result of those who think that they are to go out and destroy all that is evil by committing evil themselves on others as a sign of our love for Christ? Yet are we to sit back and wait for Christ to protect us when He has giving us both a good defense (holiness) and a good offense (in the virtues) and in our commitment to never surrender but to resist and attack evil when we find it . . . as long as we use only good means to reach good ends.
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Indeed, synthesis according to fundamentally sound principles is a good practice. We each have different abilities also. My skill with Greek, which I have studied for well over a decade now, allows me to examine texts, but also obligates me.
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Hey, even I can make mistakes like you pointed out, As soon as you said it portae was nominative, I hung my head and said I should have noticed the “I” at the end of inferi is a dead giveaway for a genitive in Latin.
So, even sharp intellects need other sharp intellects to continually sharpen them.
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That most certainly is true. I am very fortunate to be part of a Facebook group that sporadically provides me with academic material to challenge my current understanding – both commentary and translation/publication of primary materials. I have recently been shown material just published from Egypt which provides a syncretistic parallel to the Psalms.
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And I like the way the commentary lists a number of other readings that give us the impression that the “Church” is a collection of the Christians who are ‘Temples’ of God which renders us under attack but to not worry as God dwells in us and the evil will not prevail (as long as we do not reject God through serious sin etc.).
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And in this context satan and his minions are always attacking and trying to force our abdication of God from our souls (the Temples being corrupted). Yet I see Nicolas’s point as in any war (even between good and evil) the fight is never just one advance and the other on defense. The fight goes both ways. We attack and we defend . . . as does satan as well.
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