This follows on from yesterday’s points on men in the church.
The Rev Karl Hess noticed something from Mundabor’s blog (well, we are in the same business, after all)
[…]Comment Sissy showed up (nickname: “anonymous”; you never know which “anonymous” is “anonymous”) and said the critics of the Novus Ordo were uncharitable, un-this, and un-that. There had been no vitriolic comments, merely a very mild sarcasm.
A good soul, nickname “Templar” (nice one, by the way) intervened with the following words:
I grew up in New York, the Priests from my parish lived exactly 7 doors down from me and our interaction with them was daily and very personal. They were mostly Irish and Italian, most cussed like sailors (refraining only from taking the Lord’s name), used acerbic wit to cut down many a sinner, and wouldn’t back down from a fight if it came to it.
Good Bye good men.
Now we have anonymous posters who wring their hands over bruised feelings, and perceived slights. What you sow is what you reap. We have raised up milquetoast Catholics. Where is the Church Militant? Where are the Warriors? Islam is burying the world through birth rate and butchery, and us Catholics are afraid of some rough language.
The poster hits the bull’s eye in a very pithy way.
We live in times of such unmanliness that by every exchange of opinion that reaches the level of more than mild disapprobation someone – the Comment Sissy; they are everywhere – feels the need to intervene and say how “disparaging” and insensitive other people are.
In former times, such people would have been invited to go play with their dolls; nowadays, the Comment Sissy is socially accepted, and thinks he has firmly taken the moral high ground; it is like a pervert game of political correctness, in which the first one crying “disparaging” has won.
Rev Hess said it reminded him of another Catholic priest about 500 years ago.
I have indeed inveighed sharply against impious doctrines, and I have not been slack to censure my adversaries on account, not of their bad morals, but of their impiety. And for this I am so far from being sorry, that I have brought my mind to despise the judgments of men, and to persevere in this vehement zeal, according to the example of Christ, who, in his zeal, calls his adversaries a generation of vipers, blind, hypocrites, and children of the devil. Paul too charges the sorcerer with being a child of the devil, full of all subtlety and all malice; and defames certain persons as evil workers, dogs, and deceivers. In the opinion of those delicate-‐eared persons, nothing could be more bitter or intemperate than Paul’s language. What can be more bitter than the words of the prophets? The ears of our generation have been made so delicate by the senseless multitude of flatterers, that, so soon as we perceive that anything of ours is not approved of, we cry out that we are being bitterly assailed; and when we can repel the truth by no other pretence, we escape by attributing bitterness, impatience, intemperance, to our adversaries. What would be the use of salt, if it were not pungent? or of the edge of the sword, if it did not slay? Accursed is the man, who does the work of the Lord deceitfully.
From The freedom of a Christian (PDF)
I think we can all sympathize, we’ve all met the commenters, that have no facts, but are so very easily offended, and so make personal attacks. Indeed, we’ve had a few here, over the years, they rarely last long, though.
I am always skeptical about folks who are too polite to defend that which they took a vow to believe, and therefore defend, by word or deed. I am assuming that when you become a member in other denominations you are expected to abide by and to defend the teachings of your denomination, just as Catholics do.
To not do so is rather effeminate and speaks to a type of indifference to what we’re supposed to be holding as the principles by which we are to live our lives. So when they complain or when they are not bothered by corruptions of these values at the parish level or the global level and are more concerned about being nice and not offending, I wonder just what kind of men we are producing these days.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Quite, the truth (or the truth as you perceive it) is always worth a vigorous defense. To not do so is to violate not exactly one’s masculinity, but one humanity. But it should be done with facts, figures, and such, not by attacking the other person, not that anyone here does that, cause they don’t. But others do, and it’s infuriating.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Behind my parish doors I have found the most vocal people are those who advocate changes to the Church or its teachings. They do so, not out of manliness, but quite the opposite. They know that it is the predominant view in the world and can get away with it. There is also the little matter of why should I believe or accept anything you say as you have proved yourself a liar. Your word cannot be trusted as you recite the creed every Sunday and took an oath to accept all that the Church teaches. So after violating their own vows how do they get recognized for having any meaningful say in Church matters at all; for technically, they have abandoned the faith and they might ought to be looked at as non-Catholics.
Do you see the same within your denominations as well? I think it is a sign of the times that we are all dealing with.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I do, although we are not as definitive in accepting the teachings of our church. But you are correct, if you break your word, your word is of no value, likely ever again, unless you work very hard to regain trust. That is our experience historically, as Christians, and as men. And yes, it is very easy to go along to get along, which does not make it right. I also see many of those people, instead of taking God at his word, making over god in their own image. Very sad, but that is how it is.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Indeed. It is like having the pagans come into the apostles and schooling them on what Christianity should be according them. Who is going to listen. And such people (though some might call it an ad hominem attack) need to be reminded that they have for all intents and purposes abandoned their faith and are simply (as outsiders) attempting to subvert the truths of the faith. If I were Phillip I may have pointed that out to a few of those train wrecks who were stirring the pot in his classes.
LikeLiked by 3 people
He certainly has more patience that I do! 🙂 It’s not ad hom to my mind to attack their beliefs Or to say as you just did to Bosco. We already know they have know historic proof for their beliefs, and in my view they are also invalid. Not Catholic? Well yes, not least because they are not Christian.
LikeLiked by 2 people
True.
It is sort of like sharing a fox hole with a guy who has decided that his country is wrong and the enemy is right. You are going to get rid of him as soon as possible and blow the whistle on him for you cannot trust him to have your back or to fight for your side . . . in fact, more likely he will try to subvert your every move or turn traitor. Nothing honorable in traitors. And nothing that approaches manliness.
LikeLiked by 3 people
It helps that I just read a commentary on the Gospel of Mark that made a special emphasis on Christ’s trial that he was silent towards His accusers.
I think for the most part I’ve stayed quiet because objecting to a wall being a wall would be more fruitful than to challenge some of their assertions. The one comment I did make was when it was said that the Church and our Bishop did not accept gay marriage, my reply, “What do you mean ‘gay’ marriage; it doesn’t exist.”
LikeLiked by 4 people
Well that was a good reply. I’m probably more combative and would have asked them if they believed the Creed they say every Sunday and what they promised during Confirmation. If not, then they are simply liars and are essentially traitors whose vows hold no weight. They have decided to remake the Church for the rest of us in to the Church as they personally want it. Why should any Catholic listen to such crap?
LikeLiked by 4 people
I am reminded of Thomas Merton’s Seven Storey Mountain, for orthodox Catholics he is troubling but his story did share a great truth that I’ve held on to through these past few years.
He spoke about being in rural France where he was staying with a common Catholic couple, he said he started to make objections to the Catholic faith when the wife simply answered, “Mais C’est impossible.”
You don’t have to know French to get the jest of her reply. It’s always stuck with me her witness to Merton.
LikeLiked by 3 people
I only wish all our hierarchy had the same faith as that simple woman.
LikeLiked by 3 people
🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Good brother scoop, I gave you the highest praise about a month ago but the comment didn’t appear. Maybe good brother Chalcedon can go back and find it in the trash or where ever it goes.
Anyway, along the denial lines, I usually step in and wonder why certain people use good brother Neman as a shining example for what ever. Good brother Chalcedon howls loud and does backflips when I point out that good brother Newman was a flaming homosexual. I was listening to a CATHOLIC professor talk about good brother Newman. Hes not and university professor, but teaches at a major british college, I forgot which one. He casually and matter of factly said that its common knowledge that good brother Newman ran in the homo circles that were prevalent at Cambridge at the time, and he loved it and hung tight with the best of them.
To be sure, good brother Newman is the poster child of the catholic priestcraft.
LikeLike
Hes not and university professor should read….He is a major university professor.
LikeLike
No name, no institutional name, no links. Nothing but innuendo that we are to take your word for . . . and his, whoever he may be. For all I know this guy could simply be another one of the Jack Chick nut jobs roaming about. You say he is Catholic but I am not sure you are in a position to know whether he abides by the Catholic Faith or not. As such, I must dismiss your comment as fake news. The burden of proof is on you to open up a discussion here. You simply throw out slander without any authority but your own.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good brother scoop, I don’t make things up. Ill look for it later on. Ive read kis love letters to his boyfriend, which im sure you have seen also. Really, do you need anymore? For heavens sake they lived together and if that’s not enough, good brother Newman had himself buried on top of his buddy, I believe his name was Ambose or something close.
LikeLike
And Christ asked Peter 3 times if he loved Him. Did that make Christ a homosexual?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good brother scoop, I was just starting to see you in a new light. Catholics defend their wicked clergy until it socks them in the face.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Most good Catholics are the first one’s who point the finger at a wayward cleric. It is the indifferent lukewarm Catholics who remain silent. But we do not defame or spread calumny with no proof or at the very least a solid circumstantial evidence case against the man.. So you know not what you speak. You only repeat gossip and hearsay. That is the sin of calumny. Prove your case and it is certainly something that is permissible. Otherwise, you only dig yourself deeper and deeper into sin. Did you not hear Christ when he said we should love one another as He had loved him? Is this proof that they were all being asked to become homosexuals? You don’t even know the 3 types of love that the Greeks understood . . . but with your mind in the gutter, any man who says he loves another man is homosexual. Do you not love Christ? Do you not love your brothers and sisters in Christ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Love of Christ, yes, he earned it with me. Love of brothers and sisters, yes. Maybe my mind is in the gutter. What galls me is how the CC treats homosexuals in the laity and all the while their clerics that they hold up in esteem are raging homos. My advice is to get out of that religion. Im not just exposing priests for the joy of it. There is no salvation in a wicked religion. If I didn’t care about your salvation I wouldn’t keep mentioning it. The reason I don’t ask you to hold me in esteem is because im wicked also. I tell you that Jesus stands at your door and knocks. let him in and he will take over from there.
Im still looking for the source. I had to run and do some work on a house we are selling. Trying to make it look worth 300;000 dollars.
LikeLike
Here is one thing I found, but I will never find the video I saw this man on. I was surfing catholic apologetic videos for a laugh and just stumbled on it.
Canterbury, England (ENI) – British gay rights activist Peter Tatchell has described the Vatican’s instruction that the body of Cardinal John Henry Newman be moved from its grave at a cemetery in the English town of Rednal to a special new resting place at the nearby Birmingham Oratory as “an act of religious desecration and moral vandalism.” In an interview with Ecumenical News International, Tatchell said, “Newman repeatedly made it clear that he wanted to be buried next to his life-long partner, Ambrose St. John. No one gave the Pope permission to defy Newman’s wishes. The re-burial has only one aim in mind: to cover up Newman’s homosexuality and to disavow his love for another man. It is an act of shameless dishonesty and personal betrayal by the gay-hating Catholic Church.” (Ecumenical News International / News Highlights / 18 August 2008)
Ecumenical News International
PO Box 2100
CH – 1211 Geneva 2
Switzerland
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B206_GayNewman.html
Good brother scoop and anyone else concerned, what is so freakin hard to believe a catholic priest is a homo?
LikeLike
Nothing. We see many of them today. But I’m looking for proof regarding Cardinal Newman. You did not see fit to continue the evaluation which Tradition in Action sent correspondence regarding. As far as I know they have never gotten any proof or an answer.
”
WhatPeopleAreSaying02_Cir_sm.jpg – 24011 Bytes
Hello TIA,
I have to confess that I was surprised when I first read on your website your position on Newman as a liberal. Second thoughts and a little research, however, showed me that in fact he had been in the vanguard of the opposition to the dogma of Papal Infallibility and closely acquainted with the left wing of Vatican Council I.
Also his concept of conscience is very much the same as that of the Modernists who followed him, that is, it supposes a kind of revelation of God within the soul of each person.
Now that Benedict XVI is going to beatify Newman, he ordered his body to be removed from his actual burial site to another place in order to favor the public cult. Today, breaking news was released: Newman was an alleged homosexual, and he supposedly is buried along with his male partner at his express request. To hide his homosexuality would be the real reason for moving him to another place.
I send you the news with source, name, dates and addresses. If this is proved to be true, it is a revelation that confirms your points, isn’t it?
Regards,
In Christ Jesus,
E.J.
Canterbury, England (ENI) – British gay rights activist Peter Tatchell has described the Vatican’s instruction that the body of Cardinal John Henry Newman be moved from its grave at a cemetery in the English town of Rednal to a special new resting place at the nearby Birmingham Oratory as “an act of religious desecration and moral vandalism.” In an interview with Ecumenical News International, Tatchell said, “Newman repeatedly made it clear that he wanted to be buried next to his life-long partner, Ambrose St. John. No one gave the Pope permission to defy Newman’s wishes. The re-burial has only one aim in mind: to cover up Newman’s homosexuality and to disavow his love for another man. It is an act of shameless dishonesty and personal betrayal by the gay-hating Catholic Church.” (Ecumenical News International / News Highlights / 18 August 2008)
Ecumenical News International
PO Box 2100
CH – 1211 Geneva 2
Switzerland
Tel: (41-22) 791 6088/6111 Fax: (41-22) 788 7244
ENI e-mail – http://www.eni.ch
burbtn.gif – 43 Bytes
TIA responds:
Hello Mr. E.J.,
We thank you for sending us this news, and we are passing it on to our readers.
Certainly we are on the same page regarding your analysis of Cardinal John Henry Newman as a liberal and pre-Modernist. We also believe his thesis on conscience is similar to that of the Modernists.
However, regarding the affirmation that Cardinal Newman was a homosexual, it is our opinion that we should take the data into consideration but be cautious not to reach precipitate conclusions.
As far as we know, the mentioned Peter Tatchell is a recognized homosexual who was the chairman of the London group called Outrage. In 1995 Tatchell blackmailed Cardinal Basil Hume into publishing a statement favoring homosexuality. If he refused to do so, Tatchell said he would call a press conference (as he did) to disclose private information regarding Cardinal Hume’s customs. Hume published the note (as Tatchell had asked at a time he chose) shortly before the threatened press conference.
Prior to this, the same Tatchell had obliged 10 bishops of the so-called Church of England to publicly confess their homosexuality, and 34 other Anglican bishops to issue a statement saying that “one can simultaneously be gay and a good Christian.” The documents regarding these and other pressure tactics exercised by Tatchell on Cardinal Hume and Anglican prelates can be found in A.S. Guimarães’ Vatican II, Homosexuality and Pedophilia (Los Angeles: TIA, 2004, pp.140-146).
This same scandalous man appears to be the only source of the news you sent us about Cardinal Newman. He is morally condemnable as a homosexual and a blackmailer, but, as far as we know, he has not been proved wrong in his accusations.”
No proof as you can see . . . the accuser was a homosexual blackmailer and there is no response and not facts being provided to besmirch the man’s name to date. When you get it . . . let us all know.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hmmmmmmm. He blacked mailed people of position for being a homos. Hmmmmmm. And hes a homo. Hmmmmm. Good brother scoop, you have the plausible denial. I will retract my assertion that good brother Newman was a flaming parrot.
LikeLike
Just kidding. That should show you how many homos there are in the clergy of the CC and the Anglican church. Just loaded with them. But why? One thing I noticed long ago is that homos liked to be on kiddie shows. There was this show called Blues Clues and one host I was sure was gay and then when he left another raging homo took his place. Movie stars are for the most pat homos. Will Smith, Rock Hudson, are a few you wouldn’t think were gay. Rock Hudson married Jim Neighbors( Gomer Pyle) surprise surprise surprise. But Anglican and Catholic priests are forbidden to marry, so what straight male would want to be involved in that madness? The few straights that do hold their noses and go thru those pink palace seminaries are assured a steady stream of females in the form of their parishoners. The seminarians live in a gay buffet. All you can eat. When they graduate its a free for all with the choir boys and other priests and who ever else comes across their sights. The website Mostholyfamilymonestary , correct my spelling if you want to search the site, is run by two brothers. They have documented everything I said about seminaries. It was worster than I even imagined in my perverse mind, or what ever good brother scoop called me. Dentists were cathing AIDs at an alarming rate, because of the airborn blood caused by drilling. But I understand that catholic priests have topped that number in coming down with the disease. Feel free to search this if you don’t believe me.
LikeLike
Yes, authority of his own = chess rating of 2000!
LikeLiked by 2 people
🙂
LikeLike
You making fun of my rating good brother Steve? Whats your rating? 1000?
LikeLike
I am not impressed at all by any Priest of God who’s claim to fame is that he’s cussed with the “best” of ’em, ceptin’ he draws the line at blaspheming the Holy Name, Irish, Italian or any other nationality. We do not need any such men. We’ve had enough of the bad examples please. The only way to Heaven is thru Jesus Christ and those who follow Him do not pride themselves on being able to throw their fists or cuss up a storm or in any other way prove themselves regular guys. So, if both Mundabor and Rev. Hess think that this is the kind of men who are good for us and Priest’s after the very Sacred Heart of Jesus, well then, it is time for them to revise their standards. These types are part of the very problems we’re stuck dealing with every day. I really cannot stand it when I go into a parish and some visiting Priest shows up and tries to show everyone just how COOL he really is. It saddens me. More than once, I’ve had to fight the temptation to let him know what I really think of his imitation of Joe Cool. God bless. GInnyfree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Their point is that they are priest, yes, but they are also men, not squeamish panyywaists. My best pastor ever was the one that spent a fair amount of spare time in the woodshop, good pastor, also a good friend and man.
LikeLiked by 1 person
My best Pastor to date, yelled alot at quite a few people. He raised his voice so others would know exactly what he said to those he corrected. There was quite a bit of back-biting going on in that particular parish and he ended it by getting very loud. If you did something wrong, everyone knew it because they couldn’t help but hear it. He had a booming voice and I loved him for it because I understood why he did what he did. It wasn’t an act of violence, but a necessary means of correction. If everyone heard him correct a certain person, then they couldn’t do what they wanted claiming they hadn’t been told otherwise. And he had plenty of things to correct, one being our then current DRE, someone the Archdiocese assigned that he tried to get rid of for years. She was an RSM who’d long ago discarded her habit and thought all women deserved the “right” to express their “call” to the Priesthood without fears. She constantly undermined his work and mislead many intentionally. I had to put up with her thru RCIA and nearly got refused my Sacraments for challenging her openly in class. I was “warned” by one of her cronies in the class and threatened. I thought then that she was a heretic, and well, I still do. I pray she changes her “positions” before she meets her maker, but I doubt she will. She really was a very sad person. I learned a valuable lesson from her she didn’t intend to teach. Bad examples are bad. We have too many who to the innocent and unlearned, seem as if they are what we are all supposed to like, love and learn from. Away with them all! God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s is exactly the point, getting the message across.
LikeLike