We’re coming up on the 500th anniversary of the start of the Reformation, and like the author of this article, I have many Catholic friends (here and elsewhere). What do I want them to know? In this article from The Federalist, Anna Mussmann does a pretty good job of explaining.
[…]In their eyes, our admiration for Martin Luther is as misguided as holding a big party in honor of one’s divorce. They argue the Reformation ushered in a world where each individual’s personal taste in interpretation became supreme, leading to the moral chaos and postmodernism that riddles the cultural landscape today. At best, they see Protestants as limping along without the spiritual blessings God bestows through their church yet, like anorexics, rejoicing in this near-starvation.
I readily concede that the Reformation brought costs as well as benefits. Yet as a Lutheran, I am profoundly grateful for the sixteenth-century return to Scripture that reminded us of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, and Solus Christus. I deeply appreciate the Lutheran determination, demonstrated in the “Book of Concord, “to find and cling to biblical truth. That is why I want my Catholic friends to know three things about the event I will be celebrating on October 31.
1. It’s Not about Individualism
Secular historians, like secular journalists writing about Pope Francis, often misunderstand religion. Mainstream history textbooks portray Luther as someone who struck a blow for the individual by rejecting the authority of people who wanted to tell others what to believe. As long as these historians don’t peruse his actual writing, they see Luther as a pretty progressive guy by the standards of 1517. My Catholic friends read this stuff and, quite naturally, pick up the idea that Luther’s teachings led to hyper-individualism.
Yet Luther’s actual theological legacy is not conducive to extreme individualism. He intended to participate in a conversation about reforming errors that were harming the Catholic Church. That is because he wanted to point out where individuals were going wrong by failing to submit themselves to the authority of scripture. […]
It’s true, we are just about as hidebound to what Christians have always believed everywhere as the most traditional Catholic. We don’t do novelty (well some of us do). The Rev Dr Luther was essentially what we would call today a whistleblower. I too have taken Catholic friends to church with me, and especially in the LCMS, they are surprised, if anything we are more liturgical than many Catholic parishes. What Old Luther tried to do was to go back to our roots, in the early church. To be sure there are places we disagree.
The Lutheran Reformation was not about making up new traditions from scratch, but about identifying the parts of the historic liturgy that convey the gospel well. One reason it’s so much fun to talk about philosophy and literature with my Catholic friends is that we share a rich sense of history and see ourselves as taking part in a conversation that has been going on for centuries.
However, we Lutherans disagree with Catholics in a highly significant area. They say church tradition is as reliable a guide as scripture, and that one can safely construct theological dogmas on promises and statements that aren’t found in scripture. Thus they accept concepts like the bodily assumption of Mary as doctrine even though the Bible says nothing on that subject.
Now, Lutherans respect church tradition. The Lutheran reformers frequently referenced the writings of the early church fathers. We, too, are grateful for the history that ties us to the church universal throughout time, and we, too, commemorate the faithful saints who have gone before us (although we don’t ask anyone dead to pray for us—the Bible offers no promise that we will be heard that way).
There is considerably more. Do follow the link above.
I do note that Luther believed in the bodily assumption, but it was something that he took on faith, because, well it isn’t mentioned in scripture. We do, some of us anyway, following Luther’s practice, venerate Our Lady, though.
One of the main points that I always make though is that (so does Anna) without Luther, there is no Trent. He was causal in the reform that the Catholic Church needed badly.
In truth, many Lutherans do as she said, refer to our Reformation as a conservative one, in keeping with the traditional definition, keeping the good and reforming the bad. Some of those that followed had different goals, such as being as not-Catholic as they could be. We (and perhaps the Anglo-Catholics) sit firmly in the middle, Catholic but not Roman, Evangelical but traditional.
Occasionally it’s an uncomfortable spot, as we have neither the Pope nor do we get to make it up as we go. For me, it’s the right spot, as it is for many of us.
I’m reminded of the story in Table Talk about Luther coming to many of his ideas whilst sitting on the loo; as he suffered from chronic constipation.
A converted Anglican Priest mused about this one day and wondered aloud if the entire reformation might have been avoided had Ex-lax been invented at the time. 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Who know, but German beer works pretty good as a substitute. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
You’d think that Luther would have had access of that cure for sure. 🙂
LikeLike
Heh heh heh heh heeeeeeeh. Mary worshipers cant stand good brother Luther. He shouldn’t have outta said nothing about the all pervasive and thorough corruption that is Romes hallmark. Even now, when Satans church, oopps, I mean the catholic church, pays off a victim of rampant priest abuse, the lawyers put a clause in the contract that says the victim cant talk about the case…..at all. Keep as many followers in the dark as possible. Either that or suffer the loss of devotees. The CC wants as many people as possible on their knees befor a graven image of Diana , and expecting her to save them at the hr of their death. Satan is winning by a large margin, according to Jesus himself.Most people are on the road to destruction.
If im not wrong, the Lutheran church believes in Semiramis. Oh, wait, I forgot…they renamed her Mary. Your gonna get what you pay for. Great and small will wake up in hell. Hell doesn’t discriminate. No prejudice there. All religious people are welcome. All murderers and kindly old ladies are welcome.
Some hell bound catholic said to me the other day…”If you knew what the catholic church believes, you would become catholic”
I know what the catholic church believes.
A Lie
The Lutheran Church is rite behind them, riding on the coat tails of some fictitious queen of Heaven.
LikeLike
Well Bosco, you are good at exposing other peoples false religioms…what about you? Are you free from paganism?
Now that you asked, I also have a picture of mother church in my wallet. I celebrate Xmas and Halloween and eschtar. Kinda. At the calvary that I attend, they have a Xmas eve service. At this service, the word Xmas or Mary isn’t even mentioned. All you get is a service about some passage or another. No holy days are observed.
LikeLike
“failing to submit themselves to the authority of scripture.”
That is, to Scripture as interpreted by Luther. The word Trinity, for example, appears nowhere in scripture.
Scripture is part of Tradition. Tradition came first, and then Scripture came about when someone sat and wrote some of it down.
The Book does not interpret itself. God’s Church interprets it. But Luther usurped that authority for himself.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Yes, that stupid ol Luther shouldn’t have outta read the bible for himself. He shoulda believed what ever Saint Torquemada said.
LikeLike
Nothing wrong with reading the Bible, Bosco – unless, of course, you’re reading it in order to find fault with Holy Faith.
LikeLike
But if you’re constipated long enough, scripture takes on a whole new meaning. The apostles gift to ‘bind and loose’ no longer means what the Church has taught.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“Ah, whale!” said the sole.
“Ah, sola scriptura!” said the whale.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Luther took “purge the evil from your midst” quite personally.
LikeLiked by 1 person
And when he did purge himself, the effort rent Europe in two.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Until the new Lutheran Pope took the throne. I think it may be the same throne Luther used to our regret.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think there’s nothing wrong with the throne.
The one sitting on it is our issue. On the plus side, he is uniting the few remaining people in the Church with any sense.
But Cardinal Burke insists on calling the SSPX schismatic, and has still done nothing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well the Pope has something in common with Luther; their preoccupation with feces. Pope Commodius I likes to speak of coprophagia and Luther though that we were a pile of dung to be covered by white snow.
As to the SSPX, I don’t understand Burke on this as it has been denied by the Church on several occasions.
LikeLike
I thought it was “theses”? 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Don’t pawn him off on us, he doesn’t know Lutheranism any better than he knows historic Catholicism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pope Commodius I would be a name more suitable to his pontificate.
LikeLike
Good read, Neo, as usual. Of course I am a convert to the Catholic Church, but still a Catholic no less. That does not mean though I have forgotten what it was to be a Protestant and what Martin Luther did.
At times I have to sit on a fence with it, as at times I place myself back in those days.
No one can deny the selling of indulgences was what set the whole Reformation off. As far as myself, I believe that was wrong, and understand where Luther was coming from on it.
However, being that said, I do not believe Martin Luther ever intended for another Church to be started. I say this because he took so much from the Catholic Church with him. There was something there in the Catholic Church, which he knew was right. He did not like that those who converted called themselves Lutherans.
From what I have read, he prayed the Rosary, he believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc..
Martin Luther to me, was someone who had a very hard time with “salvation.” His confession went on for hours. To me, this seemed like an “obsession” with him.
Again, to me, it seemed as if he needed some sort of “peace” in his life with it. It was like it was driving him “crazy.”
I also think he was a very depressed person. Then of course he came out and said, “All Jews and peasants should be killed.”
I mean, it is like he started the Reformation and then flipped on some issues.
So I have a hard time within myself, coming to a conclusion he was 100% right.
On the selling of indulgences he was. Like I said, I also think some of it was so he could accomplish some sort of peace within himself and with God.
All I know is this Neo. There are thousands of different denominations because of the Reformation. Each one broke off because they did not agree with something, and took with them what they agreed with.
This to me is what is wrong with taking Scripture, making it fit your life, without some sort of guidance. I think in some ways this is what Martin Luther did. Then thousands of others took it from there.
I guess what I am trying to say is, “Someone has to have it right.” To me the Catholic Church got it as about right, as any Church I have ever been in. They actually helped me piece the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelations.
I learned the Bible is like a total repeat from the OT through the NT, if one has the guidance to see it and find out where it is.
I just have a hard time believing God set all of this up so each and every single one of us could see His Word as we want to. He never did in the OT, why would that change in the NT? God does not change and if we go back to the OT there was always one person that He gave His Word to, with the understanding of it, and then they gave it to everyone else.
Just my two cents again. You make me think too much! 🙂 God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 2 people
Luther was a bad man. Simony is wrong, but heresy is also wrong.
To paraphrase Chesterton, heretics are generally right about what’s wrong, or at least the particular thing they identify as wrong; what they are wrong about is what’s right.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Q,
Thanks for comment on mine.
I did not say, “Heresy was not wrong.” I believe outside of the “simony” Luther’s biggest problem was “working out his own salvation,” as well as the “selling of indulgences.”
When it came to his “salvation” he was obsessed with this. To me this was his underlying driving force in coming up with, “salvation through faith alone,” and also Sola-Scriptura.
When he found that part in the Bible that said that, he came to peace with it, within himself.
Now does this make him a “bad person?” I do not know. Some of the things he said later on, he seemed as if he could be a “bad person.”
The aftermath of it to me is what is bad, as the Reformation divided God’s children to a point of no return if God does not do something.
But…. in the days of Martin Luther, God’s children were also being used to build a building. These were people who were dirt poor, and being told they could “secure themselves a place in heaven.”
So on the flip side of that coin, was that not “heresy” as well? Were the people doing this to others not “bad people,” as well?
What I am saying is, on this situation, one cannot call the “pot” black, without calling the “kettle” black as well.
I have even heard Cardinal’s say, “Back at this time, those in the Church were corrupt and there is no denying that.”
This is what Martin Luther originally came out against. Then from there it just took off, in a thousand different directions. I truly do not believe he intended for that to happen.
What he wanted was to stop those in the Catholic Church from selling those indulgences. Then the people got a hold of everything and we all know that result. Again thank you for your view and God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
Indulgences are a good thing… the selling of them, not so much. But Luther went overboard pretty quickly. He condemned the sacrament of confession, amongst other things, in his theses.
I know you didn’t say that heresy wasn’t wrong – I wasn’t criticising, so much as supplementing what you said. I don’t think it removes Luther’s sin, the fact that he lived in corrupt times, as you seemed to be arguing. Nor is it “the Church’s” fault; it is the fault of sinful men, like Luther, and some in the hierarchy.
We live in far more corrupt times now. Today’s Pope (whom God preserve) really is a tool of satan.
Faithful Catholics today are still sinful people, some more than others. But we still manage to be orthodox.
Luther has only himself to blame, ultimately, for his loss of faith.
And while some in the hierarchy were no doubt corrupt, that is no basis to argue – as Luther argued – that the whole Church was rotten root and branch.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Sorry if I miss understood your intent. I do however agree with what you say here. Who Luther started out to be and who he ended up being were like Jekyll and Hyde. It was as if his whole personality changed.
In all honesty I do often wonder if there were some mental issue going on with him, due to his hour after hour of confessions? He was scared to death. To me the way he reacted to his personal issues were not with a clear, sane mind.
I think this bothers me more than anything about him.
I agree he does have only himself to blame. It was like he knew what was wrong, and was going to try and make it right, that only got him going off in a thousand directions, with contradictions in what he would say and then what he would teach and do.
There were so many contradictions in these things, one can only draw a conclusion, that he himself must of had a lot of contradictions within.
I often wonder if he had guilt about how it all turned out?
History, ugh! How often it is repeated! Seems like we would learn, doesn’t it? God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ain’t that the truth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Is division bad, when the division is between light and darkness?
The sectaries of Luther condemn themselves to hell by heresy. God would not permit such widespread confusion, if we were not living in an age with a great many reprobates being born. You might find that a consoling thought; it is also a frightening thought.
To argue that we have Luther to thank for the Counter Reformation, is like arguing that we have Arius to thank for St Athanasius, or that we have original sin to thank for Christ.
It’s back to front. We have God to thank for His truth and for His graces, and the wickedness of men to thank for suffering in all its forms.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You made some good points here. No “division is not bad when the division is between light and darkness.”
You are so right about the “reprobate minds.” I pray for them all the time. Minds and hearts which seem to have no discipline at all about themselves.
You know when I converted one Protestant friend was all I had left. I asked a girlfriend of 20 years to come to my Confirmation and was told, “I want no part of it!”
I have to honestly say, as a Protestant never in my whole life was I ever condemned by a Catholic, for being such. I think that was the beginning of me seeing the difference. One of many.
It is hard sometimes for me. As I did not become Catholic because my husband was or the like. I came because God called me to it. It was a year long battle between God and myself. My RCIA teacher said, “People who convert for the reason I did, have the roughest time of it.”
I never regretted it, to this day which is going on 13 years.
However, I do understand why Protestants believe as they do, for one reason most are missing the first 1500 years of Christianity. For many, it all began with Martin Luther. 1500 years is a lot of years not to have.
I do understand what you mean about the “division of light and darkness.” I so encountered the “darkness” when I converted. I have not had it since.
It is just all sad to me. We have a God who loves us so much, how can we hurt Him so badly with all of this? God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 3 people
I thank God, Who has given you a compassionate and generous heart.
I have, I am afraid to say, dished out more than my fair share of condemnation in the direction of Protestants one way or another, so your words are a rebuke to me.
There are Protestants who have no animus against the Church. Then there are plenty that do. I think it is generally a good idea to bash Reformation luminaries like Luther, because the myth of their personal saintliness props up the mythology of the Reformation. It needs debunking.
LikeLiked by 3 people
So true regarding the debunking. I in no way meant to “rebuke” you! 🙂 I guess God has strange ways of convicting us, doesn’t He? I know He does if it ever comes from me! 🙂 God Bless, SR
LikeLike
The child-likeness of the innocent is a rebuke to every sinner, because it reminds him what he has lost through sin. We can repent and be forgiven, God willing; but sin always leaves its mark, which cannot wholly be erased this side of the grave.
The path of innocence is so much easier than the path of repentance.
LikeLike
Just a quiet word. As you know I am Lutheran, and we, at least, no better. It begins with the Word. For some Protestants you are, of course, correct, but that is not what Dr Luther taught. Tradition is important as the article says, but it has to have a basis in scripture.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t mean to butt in, but I was thinking about that some today, in relation to another blogger. I wondered what she would do if Jesus came down and spent some time with her and she found out He had different ideas about Scripture than her own. Then I wondered what she would do if she thought Jesus had given the Church His authority.
I keep finding out, I don’t know as much about Scripture as I thought I did. It’s entirely possible an entity that has preexisted me by 1500 years might understand Scripture better. I’m at least willing to consider it, and so far it hasn’t let me down.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I agree, especially when whole bunches of those guys agreed.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Hey Neo,
I have to ask you though. What about the traditions which were not based on Scripture, and were handed down by oral teachings? Do we ignore those Scriptures where it says to “obey what was given orally?”
See this is where my problem is. There were teachings which were handed down orally, which were given to the Catholic Church. I know this from the early Church fathers. How to celebrate parts of the Mass was one of them. So what do we do with these Scriptures. Would love your opinion. Thanks and God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 2 people
Most were, at least indirectly. Some like Mary’s bodily assumption we can take on faith, or not. Our liturgy is quite close to the Catholic. Personally, I think we look at what we do, Rome does, and what the Orthodox do. But I’m nobody’s idea of a theologian or liturgist, mostly I listen to my church, as you do. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Q,
I have to ask you something about the division as I need another opinion on this. Have thought about this a lot. Dividing the light from the darkness. If we do that, then how are those in darkness ever going to get to know the light? Appreciate you taking the time to answer. God Bless, SR
LikeLike
The light is no good to anybody, if it is hidden under a bushel, or if it is permitted to be obscured by compromise with worldliness out of a misplaced compassion.
We are called to be in the world, but not of it. There are those active in the Church, who have no right to be. Their bad example eclipses the true Faith.
When they are finally divided from us, that will be a great blessing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Q.,
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain. It seems whenever I read something on this blog, (comment or post) one question always leads to another with me. I love to learn.
You make many good points regarding when “light is hidden.” I never really looked at it that way.
I can really understand how “bad examples eclipses the true faith.”
This is something I will ponder on. I have to ask myself, “Does my compassion ever get misplaced?”
That is not to say, “I can never get my dander up,” as I can. I try with all of my heart not to let this happen, because I do love all of God’s children.
I think I am going to have to find some “balance” with it. Again I thank you so much. God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
There is such a thing as righteous anger, and also unrighteous complacency.
St Thomas Aquinas teaches that it can be sinful *not* to get angry at certain things.
But there is no room for malice.
LikeLike
Thank you so much Q. I do believe in “righteous anger.” Trust me I do get it!
I have thought about this a lot, and maybe you hit on the head with the word “malice.”
Anger does not have to mean we respond with malice. I think that may be what I am afraid of doing.
I do know myself, and at times once bitten it is hard to control all the things within me that comes from the “bite.” So I just try not to get to that point.
I think in doing so, I may not be standing up for things which I should be standing up for.
Searching for the balance with it now. Again I thank you so much for your help. God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am very glad to be of any help.
LikeLike
SR,
You are right, he had no desire to form another church, his goal was reform. He was appalled that the Pope condoned the selling of indulgences. And yes, he would not like it that we are called Lutheran, but then what is one to do when one is excommunicated for telling the truth?. Some percentage (I have no idea what) of us still do the Rosary and Marian veneration. The medieval Church got much wrong, most of it corrected at Trent, and much of the rest since.
Do remember the Reformation happened in two stages. Luther’s, which kept much of Catholic belief and practice, including due respect for tradition. And then there were the radical reformers, whose goal it seems to many of us was simply to be as non- (or maybe anti-) Catholic as possible. There was a time when Lutherans like Catholics burned in Henry VIII’s England, even though (or maybe because) Anne Boleyn was thought to be Lutheran. And in doing so, they did indeed get to where they placed their personal beliefs (prejudices?) above what we had always believed, everywhere.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Hey Neo,
Thanks for taking time to respond. You made really good points here, and I thank you for them.
I do agree ML wanted “reform” and not another Church. I thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say.
I know ML hated the actions of the radical reformers. They got so out of hand he could not stop them. I do not think he ever wanted nor desired the violence and such that came forth from the Reformation. Honestly, I think he got way in over his head.
I am a big Tudor buff, and that reign from Henry Viii to his two daughters, was nothing but constant killing, burning at the stake, beheadings etc…. It was from the Catholics and Protestants alike.
I think Neo my biggest fear is we will once again see this. There are many in this day and age who believe because of their beliefs etc… they and only they have been chosen to go to heaven. We can see from history on the Catholic and Protestant side where this got everybody.
Martin Luther, Neo, is a very complex man to me. Because of this complexity, Christianity was changed forever. I agree, even though I am a Catholic, at the beginning he was right. The selling of indulgences was wrong. This may make some Catholics angry with me, but in my soul I cannot condone those actions.
I have to wonder if the “outcome” of ML trying to “reform” these teachings, was truly what he was searching for? I guess we will never know. God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
Not in this world, anyway. Be interesting to see who got wherever we end up, though.
LikeLiked by 1 person
So true! Cannot wait to see, providing I am in heaven and not the other place! 🙂 God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good sister SR keeps saying good brother Luther is right about indulgences being wrong. Good sister, don’t look now, but theres tons more wrong with Catholicism. Do other religions keep people in bondge of sin?…..yes. I guess being unsaved is being unsaved, no matter what religion one belongs to. But I know of no prot religion that twists scripture or that adds things to do to be saved. I wouldn’t even call prot churches religions. They sing hymns, the preachers talks about something out of the bible, sing some more, then go home to their unsaved lives. Is hell the same for the catholic as fo the prot? Yes, they all go to the same hell, if they die unsaved. I was raised in prot churches. I welcomed the news that Jesus wanted to have a personal walk with me. Just not rite then and there….I still had some sinning I planned to do. But the catholic church nips in the bud the notion that a non catholic can tell a catholic anything about salvation. They are taught early that salvation is from the hands of a costumed holyman. Then they are taught that we can pay for our own sins. These two concepts are the sum total of the bible story. Salvation is from Christ, and no one is capable of washing their own sins away. The son of God was born just to be beaten to death for our sins. But the catholic church denies both. The catholic church dispenses salvation and there is purgatory for men who might be lacking in the grace dept. Die believing these two big lies and im afraid you will die unsaved.
Good brother Luther took salvation out of the hands of the catholic clergy and put it in the peoples hands…..the people can now approach Christ for themselves. For this, catholic everywhere are taught to hate good brother Luther. To my knowledge, no one has ever asked for their indulgence money back. The CC knows one has to die to find out if that money was well spent. Out of sheer embarrassment , the catholic church has slowed down the purchase of indulgences and substituted doing things in leu of cold hard cash. Now one can visit a catholic shrine or work a soup kitchen. I know that must stick in the craw of the Vatican. Indulgences were the biggest easiest way of making untold amounts of money. What wouldn’t a man give for his soul?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Bosco,
Thanks for the response. Thank you also for warning me regarding my “salvation.” One can never be told too much regarding that.
Yes Bosco, you are correct. I do think, as I have said on many of my comments, the selling of indulgences was “wrong.” Is “wrong.” I do not believe for one moment any of us can buy one’s way to heaven.
You know Bosco, in a way I see the same thing in some Protestant Churches today. “Plant your seed./Send us 1000.00 and God will bless you./You will get that new car, new home, your finances will be blessed.”
When I hear these things it is all the same thing to me, just being presented in a different way.
I have always said, “God is not a tit-for-tat God.” In other words I do not do “this” so God will do “that.” I just pray and then I have to trust.
You are right Bosco, our salvation does come from Christ and what was done on the Cross for each and every one of us. To believe or think differently is really to make the Cross in vain.
I have to be honest, I do not have one Catholic friend who believes differently. I think sometimes the misunderstanding comes from the way things are presented.
Do those in the Catholic Church have some bad history, making the whole belief system in the Church seem false? I will be the first to say “yes.”
I will also say “yes” about many other Churches as well.
I wonder when the day will come, when we can all move out of this past, and towards the future? Love one another and give God the rest, as something tells me, “One day He is going to work it all out.” He is the only One who can.
Good to hear from you. Take care and God Bless, SR
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey SR, yeah, everyone wants your money. Is there a difference? The CC sells heaven, the televangelist sell prosperity. I think the belief that if god prospers you because you sent money that you are also right with god. They don’t tell you its a ticket to heaven.
The real deal is tithing. Give to your church and the poor and you will be blessed. Give 10 %. It belongs to god and keeping it is robbery. Even catholics who give 10% to their wicked church will be blessed. Doesn’t mean they are saved, but it could be a first step.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Bosco,
You just tickle me so much sometimes. I know you are serious, but for some reason that smile always comes across my face with you.
I agree with what you say on “tithing.” I am glad even though you think my Church is “wicked” that you believe we will be “blessed” in our giving.
I think it all lays within the “motive” behind said giving. If we are giving to “get” I think that is a fault. If we are giving out of “love” for others, I believe that is what God honors.
I like that you said, “it is robbery” if we keep it. I have never looked at it that way. I have to say there is much “truth” in that statement. It really made me think about how in other ways, I might be “robbing God.” I thank you for bringing that to me.
You take care dear Brother in Christ. Good talking with you. God Bless, SR
LikeLike
Hi good sister SR, you know what….I give out of fear of god. God rebukes the destroyer when you tithe. When the cares of this world stop me from tithing, I start getting money trouble. You know, as in lack of. My car needs a electrical part, it failed. And I haven’t tithed lately. That’s what happens when I don’t tithe. When I tithe regularly, jobs and money come as needed. My needs are met. I guess you never read this in the bible………..;
8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi 3;8 or somewhere there abouts.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Bosco,
Yes, I have read it, but thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about the “robbery” part.
Sorry to hear about the troubles with your car. Hope you can get it fixed. Kind of hard to get around without one.
I do not think I “give out of fear of God,” Bosco. I know I do it out of obedience, but I also do it, because I think I should. I have never been one who liked to see anyone suffer when I can help them no matter how little. I give 5% to the Church and 5% to the needy. Then whoever else God sends to my life who needs something, I will help them, with whatever I have.
I think the main thing is that we give, and our hearts are in the right place when we do.
Take care. I did visit your blog and left a couple of comments. Do not know if you ever got it or not. See ya next post! God Bless, SR
LikeLike
Thank you for visiting my user friendly site. A good time is had by all.
LikeLike
I checked out Eric’s Mass site and it looks really good; the organization, Aid to the Church in Need also does fine work. So there are no surprises when anyone visits the site, these are the different Mass offerings for each type of spiritual need as of July 2011
Mass for the Deceased $10.
Mass for Special Intentions $10.
Triduum of Masses $30.
Novena of Masses $90.
Gregorian Series of Masses $330.
I spoke too soon. The catholic church is still selling heaven. I guess that’s why some people convert to Catholicism. No need to bother with getting born again. One can buy their way thru the pearly gates.
LikeLike
The international faculty of the Roman Forum dedicated its twenty-fourth annual Summer Symposium at Gardone Riviera in northern Italy in 2016 to “Half a Millennium of Total Depravity (1517-2017): A Critique of Luther’s Impact on the Eve of His “Catholic Apotheosis.” The 13 lectures delivered at that event are collected in the book, Luther and His Progeny: 500 Years of Protestantism and Its Consequences for Church, State, and Society, edited by John C. Rao.
The introduction ends with this: It is our hope that the readers of this book will come to understand the profound assault on the reason, the freedom, and the dignity of man that continuing along this path to “liberation” from the law of God entails; and that in grasping its message they will join in awakening their fellow Catholics to zealous outrage over celebration of half a millennium of contempt for the command to transform all things in Christ.
The ending of “A Necessary Reform, Depraved From Birth” by John C. Rao follows: The mayhem that the logical development of that depraved teaching [Luther’s] has caused in our own day now requires a Catholic Reform perhaps even more thoroughgoing that of the sixteenth century. Let we, the living, think back to the long deceased Giovanni dalle Celle, accepting the first part of his lament, but modifying the second: When “they say that the world must be renewed,” let us say “that Luther and his teaching must be destroyed.”
Sebastian Morello in his presentation, “The Northern Renaissance and the Protestant Revolt” revels what Thomas More thought and wrote about Luther. He ends with this: We would gain much from approaching the problems of today in a “Moresque” way. Indeed, the first step on such a path could be the first toward the restoration of Christendom. One thing is crystal clear: there is nothing about Luther and his Protestant rebellion that we should celebrate.
Fr. John Hunwicke writes in his article, “Multiple Anti-Semitisms in Luther, Lutheranism, and Bergoglio: We shall not recover our identity as Christians and Catholics by celebrating Luther, with his anti-Semitism, his bile, and his conviction that Judaic error and popish error are identical. We shall find no solution to the crisis of faith at the heart of the Catholic Church by the farce of constructing a Luther from whom his hatreds have been anachronistically airbrushed away through a ludicrous ritual of “apology.” The full malice, the full menace, of Luther’s error, far from having evaporated in five centuries, is even now making its worst attack yet on the Catholic faith, in this pontificate of Jorge Bergoglio.
LikeLike
“outrage over celebration of half a millennium of contempt for the command to transform all things in Christ.”
Why don’t you start by transforming your sick sad priests in Christ.?
“that Luther and his teaching must be destroyed.”
Good brother Neo……better sleep with one eye open. Its burn heretics time again.
“We would gain much from approaching the problems of today in a “Moresque”
Ah yes….More….who strapped bible believers to the rack to be torn apart.
” Luther, with his anti-Semitism, his bile, and his conviction that Judaic error and popish error”
As late as 1850, the Holy Father rounded up Romes jews into a dreadful ghetto. This method was not lost on good brother Himmler, a devout catholic and big fan of the murderous Jesuits.
Im officially scared now. I sure hope the catholic church doesn’t become the rulers of the western world again. I hate the smell of burning human flesh…….especially my own…(;-C
LikeLike
“Especially my own.” LOL!!! Let us hope that happens to none of us. I think if it did it would not matter if one was a Catholic or a Protestant???? We would all be on our knees asking God for help and mercy! I sure would hope He would give it to us all! 🙂 God Bless, SR
LikeLike
I do not think the reformation should be celebrated or commemorated by anyone–that includes by Lutherans and other Protestants alike. Should we just go dance on Sir Thomas More’s grave too while we’re at it? The division reeks havoc on my family life, as my wife, a Lutheran, can’t seem to understand why I just won’t become Lutheran. It’s because, from a historical perspective, I simply think history isn’t in its favor.
So we’ll have Lutherans praise Luther because he focused the Church back on Christ–back on scripture. However, every single time I hear “do you uphold that the only teachings of the faith that are scripture?” I LITERALLY laugh because it’s such an ahistorical statement. Are you serious? What did Christians do before the Canon of scripture was put together 300 years after Christ left. What did Christians do before Paul ever wrote a single letter in 50s A.D. It was word of mouth–tradition–that led the Church. I could never in a clear conscience ever say “yes” to such a statement. And then on top of it, usually said afterward, “Do you accept Luther’s small catechism?” Wait… what? So that is accepted tradition all of the sudden? Get outta town.
Unless one has complete blinders on scripture is filled with references to Faith and Works salvation. Look at the first chapter of Joshua, the woman has faith in the one true God, so she hides (a work) Joshua spies–her reward is to be saved from the Israelites. What else? Charity in the Gospels, Christ says over and over, do this and you will have treasure in heaven. And I’m sorry but you have to COMPLETELY ignore Matthew 25 Judgement of All Nations, if you uphold faith alone. Ah, sorry Jesus, but we’re all sheep, there are no goats.
The Reformation, in the beginning, isn’t as innocent as many are led to believe much of it developed out of political expediency more than anything. It was allowed to survive because Frederick protected Luther as a means to keep an iron in the fire against Charles V. The Catholic Church during the period was working on ways to reform the Church.
The Reformation shouldn’t be celebrated, the celebration is an affront to Jesus Christ’s priestly prayer in John 17.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hear, hear!
LikeLike
There are others that feel likewise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W85Mair6Uc
LikeLike
Philip, Cardinal Muller is right on. He seems to be lots more honest since Bergoglio fired him. http://wdtprs.com/blog/2017/10/card-muller-about-luther-must-read/
LikeLike
What did Christians do before the Canon of scripture was put together 300 years after Christ left
The jew had the old test. The old test contains the new test. Jesus told people to “search ye the scriptures.” I know what youre getting at. You want us to believe the catholic church gave us the bible. Im hot going to accuse you of lying, but now that you know that the first apostles had the scriptures, you cant hit us with that catholic church gave us the bible lie anymore.
The Catholic Church during the period was working on ways to reform the Church.
You want us to believe that the vice ridden vile men of the catholic church went about to reform themselves? They wouldn’t have been the way they were/ are, if they intended to change. They still are a bunch of money grubbing vice filled womanizers and assorted pedophiles and perverts. What you meant to say was that they were working on ways to make the public “think” they were reforming their dastardly ways.
LikeLike
You understand that the agreed Canon and Scriptures are two different concepts? Many documents were being pedaled around for those three and half centuries. If you for the Protestant canon, you reject some of the books that were known to early Christians. Of course, this is just known history.
Vile men of the Catholic Church? If you profess Christianity, you would also know in your heart that those men were no more vile than you or I from the sin of our first parents. It’s no different than those who are among us today.
The history is against you. And your an anti-Catholic bigot, plain and simple, there’s nothing more to say to suck screed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Bigot means prejudice without real cause. To the jehovas…im a anti Jehova bigot and just a over all bad person. To the Mormons, im a hell bound un repentant hell bound person. To catholics im anti catholic, for no real reason.
Its not that im against the CC, its that I warn people about its practices. Catholics seem to take it to heart when I expose the underbelly of that idolatrous cult of personality. I take offense at what the CC puts out. It makes me mad. Jesus came and was beaten to death for my sins and the CC says that only it can dish out salvation to people, and, to make matters worster, it makes the satanic claim that men can pay for their own sins by their suffering in this fictitious purgatory.
No, I have no praise or anything nice to say about Catholicism.
OK, true, that im no less vile than the riotous clergy of the CC, ill give you that one.
LikeLike
The problem is that you make things up. For example, you say we’re Mary worshippers, if that were true we wouldn’t deny it. Jehovah Witness doesn’t believe in the Trinity and if you ask them they’d admit it. I’m a Catholic and I worship Jesus Christ not his Mother and to do so is heresy. To claim that Catholics do so is bigotry because it’s wrong.
LikeLike
Yes I know good brother phillip, you are catholic to the end.
LikeLike
“it makes the satanic claim that men can pay for their own sins by their suffering in this fictitious purgatory.”
This is also not what the Church claims. It’s a lie. You lie! All those who go To purgatory are assured of salvation.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ug, good brother Phillip, ill wait til you sober up to argue with you.
LikeLike
Funny. Bosco Funny
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pergatory….there is no sober argument for that. Of all the weirdo stuff the CC has come up with, pergatory is on the top of the list. I don’t even want to get into a debate on that or your Mary worship. Queen of heaven, dispenses All grace and salvation, has a throne next to god, fights the devil, is the head of the CC, but you only like her a little bit. What a bunch of liars. Youre forced to say you don’t worship her to shut the prots up. Well, Jesus still stands at your door and knocks….that’s the good news.
LikeLike
It would be interesting if some Catholics here would provide a lost of those teaching / oral traditions outside of scripture which are cited by any of the Fathers as originating with the apostles. I know of none!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Your comment makes little sense. And for the most part you’re right, Scripture does provide all the evidence for Catholic doctrine, thanks for admitting such. However, you can start with the letters Ignatius of Antioch, which let me preface that the short forms the consensus of scholars now accept, so Calvin’s rejection of them has been dismissed. St Clement of Rome in accordance to apostolic succession, may be the Didache. Of course, you’ll find ways to squirm out of the facts of history, so as Neo indicates we should end the discussion.
LikeLike
Neo I have not been here much lately but have also noticed the decline in this place. Including lack of post from C (is he still involved?) loss of Jess here was a tragedy. Maybe email me (robcottrell28@hotmail.co.uk) to up date me on situation at this place. Sorry to see you go one of the sane voices here. This place is sadly holding less and less interest for me.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Good brother Rob, that’s because Christ is not lifted up in here. In here you get tales of what catholic clergy have said or done. This man said that amd this man is a better theologian that this other man. It gets tiresome to the non catholic….but catholics love it. They love the things of men.
LikeLike