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Catholicism, controversy, history, Obedience, orthodoxy, Papacy, sin
Time for me to post something here, I reckon, and I think might do. The other day a document called “Correctio filialis de haeresibus propagatis“ (if your Latin is as bad as mine that translates as “A filial correction concerning the propagation of heresies”) was served on the Pope. What that document does is accuse him of teaching seven heresies. Not the kind of stuff that usually happens in the Catholic Church. In fact, the last time it happened was in 1333 to Pope John XXII. He later recanted his errors. I can’t really say that I see Francis doing that. I’m rather glad I’m not the recipient of that 25-page letter though.
Gene Veith over at Cranach spells out some of it, no doubt some of you know more than I do. He talks about the charges (for lack of a better description) and there is a link to the English translation of the document, I’ve only read the summary, so far. It’s copyrighted so I can’t give you much, but it concerns mostly this, “It lists the passages of Amoris laetitia in which heretical positions are insinuated or encouraged, and then it lists words, deeds, and omissions of Pope Francis which make it clear beyond reasonable doubt that he wishes Catholics to interpret these passages in a way that is, in fact, heretical.”
[Emphasis in the original]
Lots of this has to do, I gather, with giving communion to the divorced and remarried, and beyond that I’m not prepared to go. We’ve discussed this at great length. Search for COMMUNION FOR THE REMARRIED in the search box above if you don’t already know what most of us think. It always leads to much heat and some hurt feelings, so let’s not overly rehash it still again.
The one count that Dr. Veith and I both found a bit amusing is that they are accusing him of being Lutheran, or at least under Luther’s influence. Part of the reason I find that a bit amusing is that so few Lutherans could actually be convicted of that. Dr. Veith adds this,
I tend to have sympathy with the conservative side of theological controversies, though not on this issue. The sacrament is given specifically to sinners for the forgiveness of their sins (Matthew 26:28), and is not to be reserved only for those in a state of moral perfection. But that is one of the “Lutheran” teachings that Pope Francis has approximated and which the signers consider heretical.
But I still have sympathy for those who wrote and signed this letter. Conservative Catholics, almost by definition, revere and obey the papacy. To come to the conviction that the Pope is teaching heresy must be agonizing.
To believe that the Pope has violated the teachings of the Church Universal, that the papacy is not the protector of orthodoxy as has been assumed but a means of introducing innovative and problematic doctrines into the Church, can be a traumatic realization. And to take a stand on this conviction shows great integrity and courage.
The signers may consider Luther to be a heretic. But at least they know now how he felt.
Good thing it’s mostly bishops and academics signing this though. Henry VIII burned a few folks for that very thing, before he married one, of course. It was far from the longest marriage of his.
Indeed it must be a horrendous nightmare for any churchman to come to that feeling about any of his bishops, but the Pope! I don’t envy them, but I too admire them greatly. It must take great courage to put your name on that document.
They (whoever they may be) say that “May you live in interesting times” is a Chinese curse. I suspect we all understand why.
Our Deacon Nick Donnelly is a signatory which you would recognize.
George Neumayr recently wrote a book that quoted many of the questionable teachings of Bergoglio and he speaks about some of them here in this interview:
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Of course I would. As I said, I admire them. And thanks.
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I think its a good thing that someone finally took a public stand on Francis’ heretical standings. He needs to be “walked out” of his office. He is teaching contrary to Catholicism, making him non-Catholic, making him NOT the Pope.
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I almost had a nervous breakdown because of of Sedevacantism.
Don’t go down that path. Do not make yourself the measure of where the Church begins and ends. That way – literally – lies madness.
He has forfeit any moral right to the Papacy. Even so, he is undoubtedly the Pope, because he is the one received as such by the Church and named in Her liturgy.
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If Francis has taught heresy, he is no longer Catholic making him no longer the Pope.
“In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. “A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church.” Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub. St. Antoninus (†1459)
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I’m not making myself the measure–I’m just going on past Church teaching on the matter.
“Now when [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church must either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See.” St. Francis de Sales, “The Catholic Controversy” (16th century)
“If God permitted a pope to be notoriously heretical and contumacious, he would then cease to be pope, and the Apostolic Chair would be vacant.” St. Alphonsus de Liguori, “The Truths of the Faith” (18th century)
“In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless…” Cum ex Apostolatus Officio – Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 1559
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I can see you’re going for the whole nine yards with this Patrick. You may very well come out of it fine in the end; but you really would be better off not going into it in the first place, and I suspect that the reason you are going into it is because you have the same obsessive tendencies as I. Be warned: it will eat you from the inside out.
Bear in mind the following consoling truths:
1) God is not going to damn you for making an abstract technical error in theology in good faith,
2) there is no argument against a fact,
Also bear in mind the old French adage, ‘qui mange du pape en meurt’ – which is less consoling, but very true.
“If God permitted a pope to be notoriously heretical and contumacious”
That bar is higher than you think. I cannot recommend highly enough to you the book “True or False Pope” by Robert Siscoe and John Salza, where numerous examples from history illuminate what this has meant (and not meant) in practice. ANOTHER WARNING: Check citations given by Sedevacantist websites. Many are deliberately incomplete and misleading. Salza and Siscoe prove this from original sources.
The status of Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio is not as straightforward as some people think.
Because no-one possess any lawful coercive power over the Pope, it is very difficult in his case satisfactorily to establish contumacity or pertinacity, which is the essential ingredient in formal heresy.
However that may be, it is only the Church – not you, not a priest, not a bishop -, corporately that is competent to decide when the time has come to sever itself from a rotten head. You and I both agree that day can’t come soon enough; that does not mean Francis is not still the Pope. It has not happened yet.
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Thanks for the thoughts Q. I’ll check that book title out. God bless.
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Patrick, listen to QVO, he comes from experience. Although, I agree Bergoglio is teaching other than Catholicism making him look rather foolish to those that have been catechized.
Look hear!! NEO, Scoop, QVO on the same page. We could be making a come back.
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I thought it might happen with this one, it’s why I included that comment about heat and hurt feelings, we need to get the site working again, not blow it up! Steve Brown, too! 🙂
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Patrick that is good advice. QVO knows well of what he speaks.
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“It must take great courage to put your name on that document.” Yes, Fr. Z has a post about the fear. http://wdtprs.com/blog/2017/09/wherein-fr-z-rants-about-and-to-diocesan-priests/#comments
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Pope Francis, Q is right he is the Pope. Sure, the Pope has done good; has said good things. However, wisdom dictates that just like a broken clock, the time is correct twice in one day. I will support the seat of St. Peter, but I will not support this heresy. However, that being said, if the Pope continues to change the Church, I’ll be forced to take other measures like Athanasius against the majority Arian Church of his day.
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In a way, it’s an advantage for you conservative Catholics that he is old, and will not live forever. But the real problem may analogous to the political problems in the US and UK, it may lie more with the bureaucracy and College of Cardinals. How you fix that, or try…well I leave that to you.
We Lutherans have similar problems, as do the Anglicans, and none of us have found the answer. Eventually God will provide, but…
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You know it’s strange for me to hear and use the term “conservative” Catholics, much like when Sen. Dick Durbin asked Barrett if she was an Orthodox Catholic–of course, the media failed to provide that Bishop Paprocki has decreed the Sen. Durbin is not allowed to receive communion.
You know I think it’s save to say that Q,myself, Dave, et al have some theological and historical points within Catholicism. I think it more prudent to use the phrase “Pro-Catechism Catholics, or perhaps, Pro-Magesterial Catholics” Many ways, I think it wise, rather than use common political language, to preface those who follow authentic Catholic, or however a Lutheran may, teaching.
Perhaps these Pro-Catechism Catholics can provide this correction for a lay movement to sign and have the children of God oppose this heresy in light to Vatican II’s promotion of a universal priesthood, afterall, many of these reform-minded Catholics would never disagree with “the spirit of Vatican II”… …
I think we have to make poignant statements. Go to all public appearances of say Fr. Martin and say, “Enough, let’s get to plain speak, Do you support the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the teachings of the Magisterium, yes or no? There’s nothing to explain, it’s either I do or I don’t. I choose to be Catholic or I choose to be something else.
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You’re rather correct about that, conservative seems to be the modifier most use, personally I think orthodox would serve, but political terms are not the best here.
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So, the Holy Father is being accused of being a gash derned damned to hell Lutheran eh?
In trying times like these, its time to do what the catechism says….”Look to Mary”
She will save you.
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Humanly speaking the situation seems hopeless.
My hunch is that it will be the exposure of some hideous sexual scandal that topples Francis & Co.
This will bring opprobrium on the whole Church, but also permit Her being renewed, ready for the persecution that will follow in the wake of this exposure.
I believe we are living through Revelation 12.
The celestial alignment alluded to in that chapter – the sign in heaven – occured on the 23rd of this month.
Soon on its heels, the “filial correction” was published; the first step toward expelling the serpent from heaven (the Church), perhaps?
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It takes a stout heart these days to speak out against the Pope or the Vatican:
https://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2017/09/to-sign-or-not-to-sign.html
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I take back everything I said about Marys. You guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys.
It would be comical if it wasn’t for the fact that if one died catholic, im afraid that one is lost. Marys pride themselves on telling me their church is built on a man, and Peter the buffoon at that. They trust in men and images of men. And they wonder why their house is always in turmoil.
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Just like Job, satan is allowed to test the best, not the worst. Real Catholics do not wonder why their house is always in turmoil; it is because it is the Church that Christ founded and is the visible presence of Christ on earth. If Christ could become sin for our salvation and suffer from buffoons like yourself, why shouldn’t the Church undergo suffering as well? No need to answer, clown. As a heretic who would have been one of those at the crucifixion who laughed, mocked and yelled out, “If you be the Christ, come down from the cross”, it is of litte use to explain the things of God to you for you as far from Christ as those who mocked him at his death.
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Good brother Scoop, you mock Christ by believing his sacrifice wasn’t enough…men must pay for their sins by suffering themselves, in purgatory. If that isn’t bad enough, your costumes resacrifice Jesus every day. Bring him down from heaven and sacrifice him. That would get tiresome even to god. But thank goodness it is a fake. jesus is at the right hand of the Father, and hes not coming down for your sick sad rituals. Not only do you mock God, you are guilty of blasphemy….you call a mere mortal by Gods name…the Holy Father.
So, I guess were even.
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Real Catholics do not wonder why their house is always in turmoil; it is because it is the Church that Christ founded and is the visible presence of Christ on earth.
Its not surprising , good brother Scoop, that you say Christ church is always in turmoil. You Mary worshipers will say anything, and I mean anything and everything. The spoken word has no value to you people.
Christ is the head of his body and the Comforter is here to guide his own. The born again, as a whole, are not constantly in turmoil. Jesus is the Prince of peace. Who ever heads your rabble is the Prince of Turmoil.
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And just for the record I think Michael Matt makes a lot of sense in this video.
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“No matter what they do in Rome, I’m staying Catholic.”
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2017/09/26/on-the-filial-correction/
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