The charge has often been, and sometimes still is made that Catholics cannot be fully loyal citizens of any nation or Empire – or even a secular organization, because their primary loyalty lies elsewhere. In modern times we saw it with John F Kennedy when he stood for the Presidency of the USA in 1960, but perhaps the classic statement of it came in 1874. Writing three years after the Vatican Council which had declared the Pope infallible, the British former Prime Minister, Gladstone, wrote (1):
That no one can now become her [the Catholic Church] convert without renouncing his moral and mental freedom, and placing his civil loyalty and duty at the mercy of another.
In expressing this view, he was saying out loud, so to say, what many British people thought. Embedded deep into the national psyche, not least by two hundred years worth of anti-Catholic black propaganda, was the idea that to be a Roman Catholic was profoundly un-English. Edward Norman has eloquently described the potent, and toxic, mix of patriotism, prurience and Protestantism which made up the mental image of the Catholic for the average Englishman. All of this Gladstone now evoked. At the very least, he demanded, Catholics should give some kind of oath of fealty that they would not vote as their priests told them to.
Gladstone was appealing to feelings which, as recently as 1851, had resulted in a wave of pubic hostility against the restoration by Rome of a diocesan structure in England and Wales, described by the then Prime Minister, Lord John Russell as ‘Papal Aggression’. When Newman converted in 1845, he knew that he would be considered as though he were dead by many of his old friends; indeed, for some of them, death would have been preferable to crossing the Tiber and surrendering his mental faculties to a celibate old Italian bigot.
Newman’s response to Gladstone, which took the form of a letter to the leading English Catholic layman, the Duke of Norfolk still deserves reading as the best, and most reasoned example to a line of argumentation (it would be doing it too much honour to call it an argument) which is not unfamiliar to readers of this site.
Newman first reminded Gladstone that States had ever sought to bring Christianity under their control and, from Britain through to the lands of the East had largely succeeded in either subduing or massacring Christians:
Such is the actual fact that, whereas it is the very mission of Christianity to bear witness to the Creed and Ten Commandments in a world which is averse to them, Rome is now the one faithful representative, and thereby is heir and successor, of that free-spoken dauntless Church of old, whose political and social traditions Mr. Gladstone says the said Rome has repudiated.
Rome, and it alone, stood out against the ‘spirit of the age’, as it always had and must, as Christ’s Church, always do. Where Anglicans:
do not believe that Christ set up a visible society, or rather kingdom, for the propagation and maintenance of His religion, for a necessary home and a refuge for His people
Catholics did; it was their Church, which alone resembled that of Rome of old. But did that, as Gladstone alleged, mean that Catholics could not vote according to their own consciences? Were they, as British politicians had urged since the days of Elizabeth, spies and agents of a foreign power which was hostile to the freedom which was the heir of every Englishman?
The main point of Gladstone’s Pamphlet was that, since the Pope claims infallibility in faith and morals, and since there were no “departments and functions of human life which do not and cannot fall within the domain of morals,”(2) and since “the domain of all that concerns the government and discipline of the Church,” were his, and he “claims the power of determining the limits of those domains,” and “does not sever them, by any acknowledged or intelligible line from the domains of civil duty and allegiance,” therefore Catholics are moral and mental slaves, and “every convert and member of the Pope’s Church places his loyalty and civil duty at the mercy of another.
These things, Newman declared, were based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Church and of its relationship to society. He saw clearly what many still fail to see, that the secular had their own agenda and were either blind to that, or motivated by hostility to religion. We shall turn, tomorrow, the Newman’s anser.
Correct me if im wrong……the CC says you must believe everything it says or you are ananthema. No wiggle room for individual thought.
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No, it says that about dogma and doctrine – the essentials – the message of Our Lord Jesus Christ whom you blaspheme daily
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The above was interesting. I am a little familiar with Newman.
One could critique the English of the past few centuries rather harshly. Their empire left a lot of trouble spots in the world. The English did not work for peace in the 20th century. They committed terrible war crimes and atrocities and so, no, the English (or British, if you prefer) do not hold the moral high ground by any objective measure. (Even when the English were Catholic, prior to Henry VIII, the English men could not keep their hands off the French women during the many wars with France.)
As to the Catholic Church, and I say this as a Catholic (albeit not a very good one), it does appear that the Church demands more than God requires. When new scientific knowledge, the collective experience of mankind, reason and logic conflict with the Church’s many rules and prohibitions, the Church digs in its heels and makes attempts at changing its arguments to rigidly support its many prohibitions. Scripture, both the letter and the spirit of it, can be and is overlooked or ignored by the Catholic Church in some areas. The issue for many of us is the proper role – or rather judicious use – of Church authority. The Church was not given license to abuse its authority. The Church cannot invoke on its whim its authority and expect God (Who is sovereign) to be bound by its will. The Church needs to be on solid ground when it makes rules.
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Larry, will you please support, with examples, your 1st 3 sentences in your last paragraph? Thanks.
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I have a better idea, Steve. Suggest you study the history of the Church and do your own research. You will likely place more value on what you yourself find than on anything I present to you. My comment was geared to encourage people to do just that and think critically for themselves. (You might also read my comment on the earlier post, The Way.)
Broadly speaking, there are 3 types of Catholics. One group rejects all or most of the moral prohibitions and rules the Church teaches. These might be called ex-Catholics. Another group accepts all – everything the Church expounds. This acceptance sometimes is automatic for people and there is little thought given to such acceptance. The third grouping consists of many Catholics who think and reflect on the various teachings and rules of the Church. For these folks, when the Church is on solid ground for its teaching, they have no difficulty accepting such teaching and living accordingly. But, when the Church does not appear to be on solid ground, many of these folks will think for themselves and in certain cases reject the Church’s position as not being well founded. Some may opine here that in these instances it may be that the Church did not effectively communicate why it holds its position, or these individuals simply do not understand the Church’s reasoning.
The Catholic Church has taken a rather legalistic approach to morality or “morals”. Some feel that it has also taken an authoritarian approach – by that I mean that the Church has gone too far in some areas. The purpose of the Commandments is to call men to freedom. But, if an excessively legalistic approach is taken, it can be a case of having rules merely for the sake of rules.
Many of us would like to see the Church become a more effective force for good in the world and also be more effective in leading souls to Christ. Where it is on solid ground for its positions, yes, we must support the Church. But, there are areas where some corrections are needed.
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I’d have to say that I probably fall into a fourth category. There are somethings that I may not agree with as a result of critical thinking ;however, I trust the judgment of the magisterium and divine truth. More poignantly, in regards to placing more credibility with new discoveries in “science” and the collective experience of mankind, we, the Church, must be weary of scientism and prometheanism schools of thought.
I think also, it would help, if you be more clear on what particular you mean by new scientific discoveries and “the collective experience of mankind.”
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Agree, thanks. If you read some of Larry’s posts on site, you find very quickly that he has no problem using very specific examples in the marital bed, but can’t seem to here. Also, he states that sexual incompatibility is a valid reason for divorce, in opposition to Church teaching. https://larrysmusings.com/2017/05/11/sexual-compatibility-marriage-and-divorce/
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It would seem that you are Protestant and are ashamed of the Catholic Church. We have membership requirements, so adhere to those, or leave. Please find the place where you are happy to worship God as you please, but quit trying to mold the Church to your liking.
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“If one yields ground on any single point of Catholic doctrine, one will later have to yield later in another, and again in another, and so on until such surrenders come to be something normal and acceptable. And when one gets used to rejecting dogma bit by bit, the final result will be the repudiation of it altogether.” -St. Vincent of Lerins
“What shall a Catholic do if some portion of the Church detaches itself from communion of the universal Faith? What other choice can he make if some new contagion attempts to poison, no longer a small part of the Church, but the whole Church at once, then his great concern will be to attach himself to antiquity (Tradition) which can no longer be led astray by any lying novelty.” -St. Vincent of Lerins
“It is an error to believe that Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and to all men, but rather that He inaugurated a religious movement adapted, or to be adapted, to different times and different places.” -Pope St. Pius X
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I have a better idea, Steve. Suggest you study the history of the Church and do your own research.
Wow. the history of this church is nothing but a tale of murder and torture. Im surprised anyone ever joins this Satanic cult. Well, the unsaved will do anything. I outta know,……I was unsaved at one time.
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Fascinating! As what few of my remaining questions about the faith run along similar lines, I’m really looking forward to part two.
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