Yesterday I dealt with the common Evangelical misreading of what the Bible has to say about worship and idols. Today’s target is the misreading of the NT passages about the family of Our Lord. Truly there are no new errors under the sun. There are, however, repetitions of errors by those unversed in history.
In the fourth century a man called Heldvius wrote a book arguing that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that the brothers and sisters of Jesus recorded in the Gospels were uterine siblings. This ran counter to what Christians had always believed, and St Jerome responded with a book called The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary in which he suggested that they were either cousins on Mary’s side, or children of a previous marriage of St Joseph.
The word used by the Evangelist is adelfos/adelphos. For monoglots who insist that the word brother must mean uterine brother, here is Strong’s defintion:
Definition | |
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This, of course, presents no problem for the Infallibilists among us, who proclaim on the basis of their own unaided reading of the KJV that that it has to mean uterine brother. Such a reading defies both the dictionary and most of Christian tradition. It also runs counter to usage elsewhere in the Bible and is, were another one needed, it is an example of the way in which such people tend to make it up as they go along (you won’t find Anglicans or Lutherans indulging in this).
For example, in Genesis 13:8 and 14:16, the word adelphos was used to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot; however, these two men did not share a brother relationship, but one of uncle and nephew; so does it mean Anbraham and Lot were brothers? Of course not. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22). So, if we are going to insist on a single meaning for ‘adelfos’ then we are going to find ourselves with a pile of egg on our face.
There is an excellent post on this and links to other other explorations of the problem. You will note that like all true apologists, this one deals with care and in detail with the evidence; not once does he state that it must be as he says because the word in English is ‘brothers’ – as though it has only one meaning in English. When I refer to fellow Christians as brothers in Christ, I am not implying that my late father and mother had lots more children. When my Trades Union colleague refers to his ‘brothers’ in the Union, he is not implying that he is related to them by birth.
When the Holy Family go into exile in Egypt, there are three of them; when they go to present the child in the Temple, there are three of them; when they go to take the young Jesus to the Temple when he is 12, there are three of them. At the crucifixion Jesus does not commend His mother to Her other sons, he commends her to St John, His cousin. Of course, it could be that all those sons were hiding, or, as Bosco maintains, that they were not Christians, or that they just happened to have the same names as the sons of Mary and Clopas. Of course, it could also be that the Church and most Christians for most of history have it right. The Lutherans are wrong, the Catholics and the Orthodox are wrong, the Anglicans are wrong, but a few monoglot Englishmen with access to a dictionary know better than the people who spoke kione Greek. We see, once more, the effects of Original Sin at work. Mankind fell because it sought to be as wise as God. Some of those ‘born again’ claim such wisdom, and neglect, alas, to take advantage of the accumulated wisdom of Christians down the ages.
I like that you broadened it out, using the Trades Union example. The one that always comes to my mind is the very old tradition of our soldiers, the Brothers-in-Arms. Shakespeare tells us all we really need to know…
“Harry the King, Bedford, and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red.
This story shall the good man teach his son; […]
But we in it shall be remembered,
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
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Good example, Neo. As ever, it’s amazing the extent to which some will go in an attempt to prove black is whate 🙂
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Isn’t that the truth. The Trade unions one is also excellent, as would be firemen, cops, even us linemen, we all refer to each other as brothers. 🙂
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Why don’t you do a post on something in the bible your major religions actually belive.
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This is one of those – there are a few Protestants who dissent, but I wanted to put forward the reasons why I consider their dissent misplaced.
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I don’t know any protestants that believe in a virgin queen.
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Do Anglicans and Lutherans not count?
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From what I gather about Lutherans from good brother Neo, they don’t count as prots. if they believe in Semiramis, they are no better than god forsaken Anglicans and cathols.
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They were the first Prots. And please, the Semiramis nonsense is so silly that you appear really stupid. It is what Hislop said and he was wrong and has been shown to be wrong. You simply undermine yourself by repeating lies.
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Did I say Semiramis? I meant Mary. I get my pagan virgin goddesses mixed up. Sorry.
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My point is simple, Hislop, the ultimate source for the Semiramis nonsense, got it wrong, but by all means continue to make a fool of yourself; it’s just a bit sad.
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You must all watch this…I command you.
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If the bible is very clear that Jesus had siblings, wouldn’t the catholic position be considered dissenting?
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If it were, but as the article shows, it is clear that they were not – unless you are assuming that they all came after Jesus was 12 – and why would that have been the case?
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Your article is just an article…it isn’t written in stone.
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Indeed, but it cites the language in which the Gospel was written rather than the C17th translation in English.
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I believe in a strong god. He gave me a accurate book. If its wrong, how come god hasn’t reached down and corrected it.?
. 14All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren
Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
These are both from your catholic bible. So now what? (;-D
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He did, in the Greek. As I say, you are coming close to idolatry by making one language the only translation possible. Not a good line of argument.
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I just quoted your bible. It says the same thing. What are you going to do now? You gotta get off marys back and ask Jesus for the truth. Ask him. He promised to give an answer. Don’t listen to me or your priest. Go to the one who was in the burning bush.
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I am quoting the original, which is the language God chose to transmit the Scriptures in, that what I am doing, And you, are you insisting the KJV is superior to the original?
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KJV was diligently translated. They should agree. While youre fussing over translations, Jesus is knocking at your door.
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I am referring to the original Greek version – which uses a Greek word which can be translated in a number of ways into English. You have to insist that only one way of translating it is right. Do talk to translators and ask them whether this is the way translations work.
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If brother , in scripture, means cousin, wouldn’t cousin mean brother or sister? I know it sounds like twisted logic….but one twisted logic deserves another.
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Hello, bruvver Bosco.
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Hello good brother.
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As was pointed out, one of the possible interpretations could mean: “a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother.”
It’s possible that Joseph, who traditionally was believed to be a widower of greater age than Mary, may already have had his own children prior to his engagement to Mary. They would then fit within the word that English narrowly interprets as “brothers” but had a wider range of use in biblical Greek. Nothing from the text alone is definitive, just educated guesses based on plausible interpretations. In the end it’s up to one’s religious tradition to decide which plausible interpretation it wishes to adopt. Catholicism just so happens to have dogmatized its interpretation.
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Joseph already had kids from previous marriage.
In Hebrew folk lore, there always has to be a bal shem tob on earth. Bal shem tob is a righteous man. If every Hebrew dies in the flood there would be no more jewish bal shem tob and no more jewish religion. Im not making this up. So, to keep the fabled continuity, the story goes that a bal shem tob held onto the roof of the Ark and survived that way so the earth could always have a righteous person on it or god would destroy everything. The bible says eight people survived, but the Hebrews say a ninth person, a bal shem tob held onto the roof and survived to keep the world alive.
cathols will say anything to make their fables be true. That’s not why they wake up in hell. Its because they trusted in a false religion and never came to Jesus to reveal himself and walk with him. Cathols want a virgin queen. I say, have your stone age virgin queen.
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Remember, Bosco, we are told Joseph was a righteous man. Now, would a righteous man, being told his wife was with child by the Holy Spirit, then want marital intercourse with her? Seems rather unlikely. There are no other children when they take the infant Jesus to Jerusalem, no others when he is crucified, so just when were these brothers and sisters born? If Jesus went up to the Temple when he was about 12, you would have to assert that between that stage and the start of his ministry 18 years later, Mary, having had only the one child in 12 years, suddenly had five or six more in that time, despite the fact that at some point Joseph died. Seems rather unlikely, wouldn’t you say?
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Don’t matter what I say.
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It does, as I say in the piece, you are not the first person to make the allegation. One of the great plus points of reading widely in Church history is that just about everything you say has been said before and answered before 🙂
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Ive never said this befor because I let the words of God stand for themselves. Since you want to reason everything away, lets reason. Chidren were old age policies. they took care of you when you got old. the more the better. this is how its always been done. Plus its jolly good fun making them. I doubt seriously if Joe and Mary were any different.
All religions have some nutty twist to them. Yours happens to have some virgin queen, and of course you go with it, why, because you are true to your religion, {and} the spirit of Nimrod rests upon you. Youre not a bad person because of it. Time is short, jesus wont be at your door knocking forever.
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Again, your problem is the same. When were these children born? They were not there when Jesus was 12, they are not there when he diesm and yet you need to invent them to make one translation of ‘adelphos’ the only one. That;s straining it a bit.
And you ignore my question. Why would a righteous man have intercourse when his wife had been pregnant by the Holy Spirit?
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First of all…Me. Second, after jesus was born, it was time to do the do, know what I mean jelly bean? The scriptures don’t have to mention marys other kids until god wanted them mentioned. they weren’t followers. the OT mentions Jesus bros and sis. the NT doesn’t talk about what happened to Joseph. Maybe he got sick of Marys nagging and divorced her. The bible doesn’t care about certain things. Anyway, you got bigger probs than Mary having a bunch of kids.
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The problem, Bosco, is you have to strain the evidence to prove something you already decided has to be true. Since you often insist everything is in Scripture, I presume you think Joseph is still alive as it never tells us he died?
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For some reason Joseph wasn’t important. Don’t look at me…I didn’t write the book.
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And you you are fantasising a sex life for him? Why?
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You wanna know what good brother Joseph would say to you celibate catholic blockheads? He would say….you guys can get married and never do the do….but that aint happinin here buddy pie pie pie.
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one of the possible interpretations could mean ___ Steven.
This is a old bait and switch trick used to make no evidence become the gospel truth. First he says “it COULD mean” and then goes on to act like its now written in stone gospel truth.
I don’t know why I bother about this Jesus sibling thing. Its not important to salvation. Nobody cares.
It seems to be all important to virgin queen worshipers. They have to somehow twist scripture to make her a vigin and a queen.Their whole religion is all about a virgin queen. This all started when the Roman State Run Religion brought in the Diana worshipers by telling them Diana is really Mary. That was OK with htem, as long as the State run religion had a virgin queen to worship, that was fine with them. Now, they are saddled with this virgin queen. But the cathols seem to love it. they want it, they need it, they cant do without a virgin queen. Its the spirit of Nimrod that still lives.
The men ran thru the city for two hours yelling “great is Diana”
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Do you think Abraham and Lot were brothers? The same word is used for them. Do read the article.
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I read it. When I open the bible, those many passages are still there about Jesus bros and sis. Your voodoo failed to make them disappear.
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They are, and when I read the original I see the words used by the Evangelists and approved by the Spirit, with is ‘adelphos’ which in Greek can mean a variety of things. Why prefer the version approved by King James? I go with the original, you are welcome to the inaccurate translation.
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Thanks, ill keep my KJV. The douey Reims says the same things. only you cut out the 2nd command and have 7 weirdo book that are not gods words. other than that, they are the same.
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But the Greek, the original uses a word you insist has only one translation. If you are right, then Lot was Abraham’s brother. Do you think that?
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I don’t know why it says Lot was Abes Bro. But it didn’t say it ten times to drive it home. I mean really…so what if Mary had more kids. You need to worry about being born again, and then worry about trivia.
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It said it, and it means relative, so just admit the obvious, that adelphos does not always mean uterine sibling. Why is it so hard for you to admit it? Of course it undermines your fetishising of KJV, but then tell the truth and shame the devil
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so just admit the obvious, that adelphos does not always mean uterine sibling.
Ok it does not always mean sibling.
So you take this dichotomy and then you chastise me for not believing it means cousin in this instance. Could go either way but you have it as gospel that it goes your way.
I don’t worship a virgin queen, neither do I think Mary is a virgin queen of heaven. The Lord is my Sherpherd.
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No one worships a virgin queen Bosco. You, like others of your ilk, have an unhealthy obsession with virgin queens; I am sure help is available.
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That was my first good chuckle of the day….thanks.
I have an obsession with virgin queens.
Virgin queens don’t even pass thru my mind until I click into this site. And then that is all you Marys jibber about is your virgin queen and why scripture is misunderstood. Misunderstood because it doesn’t support a queen of heaven.
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You are the only one going on about it. If I count the number of posts on Mary, they are a small part of the whole.
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Say good brother, I was wondering….have you ever carried a mary image on your shoulder in a Mary procession? You seem like a big strong strapping kinds guy. They need big strong guys to carry those big heavy graven images down the streets.
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No, that’s not my style
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Hey, how come none of you scholars didn’t point out to me that my name is spelled wrong.(;-C
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If we pointed out all the spelling mistakes, we’d have no time to write anything 😊
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