Perfection is, broadly speaking, a state of completeness and flawlessness. If people were perfect, they would be incapable of performing a task in a mediocre, sub-par fashion. Whatever act they may perform would be done with the utmost skill, sufficiency, and grace. To put it plainly, those who could be perfect would have, in a way, one of the perfections of God.
Judging from what God has revealed to his creation humanity, through the written form of His Word, the Bible, for a human to enter Heaven, he must be perfect. This what God created humanity for; perfection. God is constantly reminding us with this teaching, and always exhorting His people to be perfect.
(Matthew 5:48) “Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.”
St. Paul even says that without holiness, “no man shall see God.” (Hebrews 12:14)
Jesus does not say the sinful, but rather “the…
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All Along the Watchtower 
Jesus went to preach to those in prison when he was dead for three days. We don’t really know what this was or is. Some things we just cant know. We are bound in the flesh and cannot visualize the spirit world, or comprehend it.
Having our works tried by fire is another. But this refers to the born agains works, not to the unsaved. Sorry about that. And no…. a face full of crackers doesn’t make one born again.
This place where men go if they still have sin on them, in order to pay for them after they die, is a slap in the face to Christs sacrifice. This religion of yours tells you that men can pay for their own sins by their suffering. This is the most anti Christ of all unholy ideas. One has no need to call upon the Lord or even invite Him in. What your religion is saying is that Christ sacrifice doesn’t cover all sins. That says it all.
jesus stands at the door and knocks, hear his voice and let him in.
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True, we don’t know exactly what the place was that Christ went. But the point is that there is more than Heaven or Hell. We can know some things about the spirit, as revealed to us.
And how do you get that it is the “born agains” works? Why would there works be tried? Are there works worth anything? I though you believed that works had nothing to do with salvation.
Please answer the question of what happens if a person dies with some sin on His soul, or has not paid temporal punishment then. Where do they go?
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I know works have nothing to do with salvation.
If one dies in sin, one goes to hell, sadly. Temporal punishment is a cruel joke invented by those who brought us the Inquisition.
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If you believe works have nothing to do with salvation, then why would the passage deal with the “born again’s” works? It would be unnecessary. If the works burn then the person suffers loss. What would this mean, if works mean nothing?
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The unsaved will say in that day…haven’t we visiyed the prisoner and clothed the naked and fed the hungry? And the Lord will say,….depart from me ye evil doers, I never knew you.
You see they never invited him in to have a personal reliationship. They relied on religion and other substitutes.
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Actually, I think you have it backwards. Jesus’ words said the unsaved will protest, “when did we see you naked or in prison?…”. Regardless of one’s theology, we are confronted with the fact that Jesus at least once portrays the final judgement as a sifting based on the criteria of love and how we showed it to others.
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Good brother Steven, who the freak do you think I meant will protest that they did good but are going to hell anyway? You cathols just cant get it together. No matter what I say you have to say im wrong. In order to keep yourself from waking up screaming you have to convince yourself Bosco is wrong on everything and your graven images will save you. Bosco has to be wrong…..look at all my fellow cathols and priests and popes who bow down face first to the dirt befor idols made of stone. Bosco has to be wrong. Yes, I meant you virgin queen worshipers will wake up in hell. Theres still time to open the door to Christ, but I think you have no intention of abandoning your virgin queen. The time is at hand.
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Bosco, I was correcting your misquoting of Jesus in the parable of the sheep and goats. The unrighteous (goats) were protesting by trying to excuse themselves from the fact that they failed to show love. In a different instance, in Matthew 7, Jesus portrays the unrighteous pointing to their religious good works (prophesying, exorcism, miracles), and are still rejected. Ostensibly, we could say the “good works” performed by the unrighteous were devoid of love for God, and genuine love for God as evidenced by compassion for others carry more weight in God’s eyes. The unsaved missed the point, trusting in their own efforts to serve God, while missing the fact that God “desires mercy, not sacrifice”. I corrected you on this, not because I think you’re wrong about everything, but because I think you’re missing an important distinction.
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My brother, you are backing the wrong horse. You must be born again to see clesrly. And while youre at it , get a KJV bible. In that passage it doesn’t say, or rather Jesus doesn’t say that they should depart from him because they didn’t show love. You either don’t like what Jesus actually said or you didn’t keep reading. one of the two.
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Why would I read from an incomplete Bible? That’s absurd. What religious authority did King James have?
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Douay-Rheims Bible
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Here it is in your bible. mat 7 ,23
One thing I admire about the Marys Douay Rheims is that you all had the hutzpah to get rid of the second commandment. if youre going to do it…..do it right.
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If works mean nothing, then why are the good led into Heaven because of the good works they performed in Matthew 25?
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Good brother Patrick, your gonna have to refresh my memory as to where it ssays that the good go to heaven because of their good works. Thanks in advance. maybe one of your fellow cathols would like to find the scriptures also. You all are supposed to be on the same page. lets see how many come to your rescue.
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I mean that we will be judged by our works, as shown in Matthew 25. I do not mean to misrepresent the Catholic position. Faith in God is necessary, but obedience also is.
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You’re wrong here, [Patrick: edited].
First: Lutherans believe that salvation is by Grace, freely offered by God through Jesus. There is simply no way we can earn it.
Second: The Catholic Church agrees with us, and always has. From the Catechism of the CatholicChurch:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
And from the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.”
Works come from salvation which comes from Grace.
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And an apology, No idea why I called you Steven, instead of Patrick. No excuse, either. 😦
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My wife is Lutheran, I find that the disagreement with Justification always comes down to semantics and a lot of Catholics and Lutherans cringe when I say it.
It comes down to this:
How is one faithful?
If not feeding the poor, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty is being faithful to the commands of Christ then Mt. 25 Judgment of All nations makes no sense.
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I arrived at the conclusion sometime last year that there aren’t really any substantial differences between modern Catholic and Lutheran soteriology. The differences seem to lie mostly in which aspects of salvation are emphasized, as well as some of the smaller details. As you said it’s more or less a matter of semantics and which aspect of salvation one focuses on, when you scrub away the harsh 16th century polemical language. There are some differences, but I think the Joint Declaration makes a good case that it’s nothing that should be considered insurmountably divisive.
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I’d say you secretly miss me. I have been rather scarce around here lately 🙂
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May be true! But I’ll never admit it! 🙂
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What exact point from the article are you disagreeing with? No offense taken about the name.
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May have been on yours more than here, don’t remember. I’m nobody’s expert on Purgatory, for that matter. But I read it as coming perilously close to Justification by Works. May well not have been your intent, but if I read it that way, and I did, others will, as well.
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So you mean the article as a whole struck you that way? I am representing what the Church teaches. Purgatory is the state of purification for those who have died in the state of grace, but in venial sin, or haven’t paid the temporal punishment due to sin.
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However, Neo, you seem to miss something in regards to Catholic theology, so I ask can it be justification of works when those in purgatory are already assured salvation?
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You guys are right, I do miss something. What I miss is the utility of Purgatory. Might be a good article (or series) for one or both of you guys, cause I’m pretty mainline, and I just don’t see it. If we are saved by Grace, which causes works, and are called to confess which we all are, and do, and it is accepted, which we believe it is. How than there be a continuing cost?
You’re right, I’m missing something in Catholic (or maybe general) theology.
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At least there is someone humble and open minded enough to admit that he may be missing something. Perhaps Bosco could learn from this example.
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purgatory, where one pays for ones own sins.
Either one is saved or one isn’t. If one dies unsaved, that’s is. There is no kinda saved. You people gotta stop listening to these devilish religions.
Just come out and say it….Jesus sacrifice didn’t cover all sins.
Whats worst is that these hellbound religious people teach this to little children. Verily , they shall have their reward.
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I just think of it as the moment, process, or whatever you want to call it, where after death the facade falls off and the saved truly see for the first time, which of their works are made of gold and which are made of hay and stubble. An unfiltered realization of one’s own sins/imperfections will surely create some level of [godly] sorrow for the saved, but it’s a sorrow tinged with hope and love. I reject the idea that purgatory means the saved have to pay for their sins, but I also don’t think the Bible rules out the possibility of some type of experience of godly sorrow after death, for those who are to be saved.
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The reason you reject the possibility of sorry for the saved is because you hate Jesus and his words and you love the words of men.
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I meant reject the possibility of the saved not having sorrow. You reject scripture because you love your master the Liar. You love lies and hate truth.
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Fair enough.
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There is a logic for Purgatory. In the East, the purgation process is played out over many lifetimes in this hellish world.
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In the east they catch rats and BBQ them.
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Lol. What a retort.
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