Tags
Anti-Catholic Bias, Catholic Apologetics, Music, The Eucharist, The Pope, The Rosary, The Saints
Original article: https://whysoseriousdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/its-great-to-be-catholic-response-to-excatholic4christ/
Tom, aka excatholic4christ, wrote an article a few months ago titled: 10 Really “Uncool” Things About Being Catholic (link at bottom of page). Tom, in his spirit of anti-Catholic bias and ignorance of true Christianity, labeled several of these 10 things unbiblical and all of them “uncool”. I want to take a look at each accusation.
1. Confession.
Tom says: “Going into a dark box and confessing sins to a priest is unscriptural. No man can forgive sins. The Catholic confessional box was often used by predatory priests to initially lure their victims. Priests were required to probe older children and young adults with embarrassing questions about sexuality to ensure they gave a full, ‘good’ confession.”
First, all priests were required to ask embarrassing questions? Required? I think not. Prove it. Yes, there have been repulsive, perverted men that have entered the priesthood of Jesus Christ who have been sexually immoral. But this is a small percentage that cannot be perceived as the whole.
The sacrament of Confession is an ancient practice dating back to the Apostles. The Early Church testifies for the practice of Confession. See here:
https://www.catholic.com/tract/confession
Furthermore, just as God used His priests to forgive sin in the Old Testament, He does the same in the New Testament.
“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” (John 20:21-23)
Having been raised from the dead, our Lord was here commissioning his apostles to carry on with his work just before he was to ascend to heaven. “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” What did the Father send Jesus to do? All Christians agree he sent Christ to be the one true mediator between God and men. As such, Christ was to infallibly proclaim the Gospel (cf. Luke 4:16-21), reign supreme as King of kings and Lord of lords (cf. Rev. 19:16); and especially, he was to redeem the world through the forgiveness of sins (cf. I Peter 2:21-25, Mark 2:5-10).
One instance of God using a man to forgive sin is in 2 Corinthians 2:10. Paul speaks:
“And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.”
St. Paul made use of his power to forgive sins in Christ’s name, despite being a sinner himself. Just because a man is a sinner does not negate the fact that he has God given power. St. Peter was a sinful man, and yet he was able to preach and baptize people in Christ’s name. How is the power to forgive sin any different?
It should also be noted that the Apostles were given spiritual authority by Christ in Matthew 18:18:
“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
This authority was passed down by the Apostles to their successors, from bishop to bishop, from bishop to priest. It is the Catholic Church who can trace her lineage all the way back to the Apostles, as the power to forgive sins are passed down to the Church’s priests. This is why Catholics confess their sins to their priest; their priest received the same power over sins as the Apostles.
As the Apostles were men who were given power to forgive sin, how would they have known what sins to forgive? The only way for them to know would be that the penitent tell them their sins. That is why Catholic confess their sins to a priest. Priests are (often) not mind readers. How else would they know what to “bind and loose”?
It seems very clear that Confession is very biblical.
2. The Rosary
Tom says: “God’s Word forbids prayer to any entity other than to Him. It also forbids multiple rote prayers.”
The verb “to pray” means “to ask”. It originally held this meaning in old English, and was used in phrases such as “I pray thee, do tell…”. It is originally just another word phrase for “ask”. The usage began to change meaning during the Protestant Revolt. The head of the Church of England did not warm up to the practice of prayer to the saints, and the term became solely associated with prayer to God. As the English monarchy took over many churches and universities of England, this Protestant word usage became the norm among non-Catholics. Catholics however, did not take to the new meaning, and from then till now “prayer to the saints” has strictly meant asking for saintly intercession.
This explanation shows that not all prayer is worship, as it depends on the manner of such, and the definitional term used.
Secondly, the bible exhorts Christians to constantly pray for one another, and it does not restrict the Christians of Heaven to do so.
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God” (Romans 15:30)
“By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel.” (Ephesians 6:18-19)
“You helping withal in prayer for us: that for this gift obtained for us, by the means of many persons, thanks may be given by many in our behalf.” (2 Corinthians 1:11)
And perhaps the most explicit passage on intercession for one another:
“I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:1-4)
Asking the saints in Heaven to pray and intercede for us to God is the same exact concept as asking other Christians on earth to pray for us.
As for repetitive prayer, the Bible nowhere condemns such. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus said “do not heap up ‘empty phrases’ (Gr. – battalagesete, which means to stammer, babble, prate, or to repeat the same things over and over mindlessly) as the Gentiles do…” We have to remember that the main idea of prayer and sacrifice among the pagans was to appease the gods so that you could go on with your own life. You had to be careful to “take care of” all of the gods by mentioning them, and saying all the right words, lest you bring a curse upon yourself.
Later in Matthew 6, Jesus gave us a prayer to recite! The Our Father! Notice the emphasis on living the words of the prayer! This is a prayer to be recited, but they are neither “empty phrases” nor “vain repetitions.”
Mark 14:32-39:
“And they went to a place which was called Gethsemane; and he said to his disciples, ‘Sit here, while I pray.’ And the took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch.’ And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, ‘Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this chalice from me; yet not what I will, but what you will.’ And he came and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter, ‘Simon, are you asleep? Could you not watch one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptiation; the spirit indeed is weilling, but the flesh is weak.’ And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. And again, he came and found them sleeping… And he came a third time, and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping…?’”
Our Lord was here praying for hours and saying “the same words.” Is this “vain repetition?” No. Tom, you do not recognize the difference between repetition and vain repetition.
3. Popes
Tom claims that there are no popes in the Bible. I’m sorry that you are to ignorant to realize that St. Peter was the first pope. Christ appointed him the head of the Church on earth when He gave Him the keys to the kingdom, and reaffirmed this by telling Peter to feed Christ’s sheep. If you cannot see that Christ left His Church in Peter’s hands, then you need to study the concept further.
4. Saints
Tom says: “The New Testament refers to saints as all those who have accepted Christ as Savior, not a super-holy class of people as Rome invented.”
Catholics believe that all who are in the state of sanctifying grace are saints. Catholic merely refer to the saints in Heaven as “saints”, and call the Church Militant on earth “Christians”.
Also, to enter Heaven, one must be holy. St. Paul even says that without holiness, “no man shall see God.” (Hebrews 12:14) Not sure why you say “super-holy” class of people Rome invented. Rome didn’t “invent” holiness as needed for salvation, and Rome did not invent any people. The saints are as real as you and I.
5. Relics
Tom says: “Nowhere in the New Testament are believers instructed to venerate physical objects.”
No Tom, the Scriptures do not explicitly say: Venerate relics. But then again, the Bible is not the sole rule of faith.
“One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.
“Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them. There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability. The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.
“The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: “So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet” (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
“Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12).
“If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.” (1)
6. Processions
Tom writes: “As priests parade a large bread wafer alleged to be the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus in a sunburst container called a monstrance, the Catholic faithful bow down and worship it. This is unmitigated idolatry.”
Hmmm…last I checked, Christ told us that we are to eat His flesh to have eternal life. He gave us His flesh to eat under the appearance of bread.
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.” (John 6:51-52)
“And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:26-28)
“The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.” (1 Corinthians 10:16)
7. Blessings
Tom says: “Priests and bishops are alleged to have been ordained with the ability to endow people and objects with powerful blessings.”
…is this strange to you at all? Just like the prophets of the Old Testament giving their blessing to others? This charge against blessings seems to be the dumbest yet.
8. Music
Tom says: “Gaudy liturgical ritual with its accompanying music defined “religion” for most older generation Catholics.”
This one seems to be more of an opinion than an actual accusation. Not sure what get’s Tom’s goat about music.
9. Guilt
Tom says: “Yup, God’s Word says we are all sinners, but Catholics can never find spiritual peace in Christ because they’re on a religious treadmill and no matter how much they do or how good they try to be, it will never be enough.”
We are all sinners, and we do not know at the present if we will die in the state of grace. What if I am in the state of grace at one time, and then commit murder? Should I have nothing to worry about? Your argument is nonsense.
10. A Sense of Humor
Tom says: “I went through twelve years of Catholic education and I can attest to the fact that MANY priests, nuns, and brothers did NOT have a sense of humor. Often those troubled souls were cold and hurtful.”
Some people are kind and cheerful, others are not. It is not like all Catholics are hapless zombies. I have been Catholic all 15 years of my life, and the majority of Catholics I have met are fun, happy people. Most of my friends are Catholic. They take their Christianity seriously. You just view everything through an anti-Catholic lens. How about taking those anti-Catholic shades off now and take a long look at Truth?
— Patrick E. Devens
(1) https://www.catholic.com/tract/relics
via 10 Really “Uncool” Things About Being Catholic — excatholic4christ
Secondly, the bible exhorts Christians to constantly pray for one another, and it does not restrict the Christians of Heaven to do so.
I don’t believe it even mentions those that have passed on. How can it not restrict them when I doesn’t mention them? Thanks in advance.
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It does not restrict them because it does not say: Christians, once you die, you cannot help your fellow Christians any longer.
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OK, so no mention of praying to the dead or dead praying for us means its written in stone?
In other words…silence is proof positive.
The bible doesn’t say not to send me all your money. So, send me all your money.
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Silence means you cannot forcefully condemn it.
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Its condemned soundly in the OT. Saul got a sword thru the body because of it. Im aware the CC is a conglomeration of all the things god hates. You have been warned.
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Reference No. 8. Seems to me Tom needs a trip to an English Cathedral or a Lutheran church. We tend to think Catholic music has its heart in the right place but is a bit lame. 🙂
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Think about that a bit more, Bosco. How can it restrict them when it doesn’t mention them?
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I don’t follow you good brother. can you restate that? Thanks.
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If it’s not mentioned, it’s not restricted. It’s so simple a Bosco can understand it.
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Im going to guess that the gospel writers already knew that praying to or asking anything of the dead is one of the worst things we can do. So there was no need to mention it. just ask good brother Saul.
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Don’t assume that you can condemn it. You cannot condemn something using reference of silence. You personally cannot go beyond scripture. So don’t assume.
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Um, did you catch the part about praying or talking to the dead is a no no? God really frowns on that. That must be why you idolatrous religious folks love it. You love everything god hates.
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No. attempting to communicate with the dead in hopes of hearing from them is a “no-no”.
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My point exactly.
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I know, but those that can’t read, don’t.
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I guess so.
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if ASKING FAVORS FROM THE PASSEd on was such a big and wonderful thing, how come not one word in the NT about that. Its forbidden expressly in the OT. So is bowing befor the works of your hands. Seems these two forbidden acts are the mainstay of the CC.
Better seek the Rock from which ye are hewen and do it befor its too late.
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Asking for prayers is not condemned in the OT. Necromancy is condemned; the conjuring of spirits is condemned.
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Its beautiful news to hear that your friend Tom got out of that snake pit the CC and is now for Christ. Good for him.
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What’s going on Bosco, Patrick, and NEO?
I would lovingly disagree that the Bible is silent on the topic of praying (asking) to those who have died physically.
The Bible condemns anyone who tries to talk to anyone that has died by any means.
In one of those instances, King Saul went to a medium trying to talk to Samuel. (1 Samuel 28:3-25).
The Bible condemned King Saul for not seeking God but went to ask Samuel who was already physically dead.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 Saul died for his unfaithfulness to the Lord because he did not keep the Lord’s word. He even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 but he did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.
We must understand that trying to speak to the dead either through a medium or just trying to contact them through prayer or any other means is prohibited. The Lord wants you to go directly to Him as seen in John 16:23-24 which says, 23 In that day you will not ask Me anything.
“I assure you: Anything you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked for nothing in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.
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Thanks for checking this out Spaniard.
I take an excerpt from: https://www.catholic.com/tract/praying-to-the-saints
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
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I agree that Jesus was not practicing witchcraft because He was talking to Moses and Elijah. God the Son can talk to whomever He pleases because He is God. Jesus did things on earth that only He has the right to do but not us, for an example: He told the paralytic on the mat, “your sins are forgiven” and the Pharisees knew full well that only God can forgive sins. Jesus responded that the Son of man as the same authority as the Father (God). Now, that is not the same as a Christian forgiving another person for doing them wrong. Jesus declared that man righteous which we cannot do but God alone.
Nowhere in the N.T. does anyone pray or talk to the dead, you will not find a verse implying it or commanding it.
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If it was wrong for anyone to have contact with the dead, Jesus wouldn’t have done it. While He is God, He still obeyed God’s laws.
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“One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.”
His explanation for praying to those in heaven doesn’t make any sense because the incense or prayers of the Saints are their prayers that’s going before the Throne of God. It is not going to Saints but to God. I don’t see in Revelation 5:8 any evidence of the claim to pray for the dead.
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They are offering God the prayers of the saints on earth.
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I read some of it, the link you gave me and what he is explaining is not in those verses that he mentioned. There is not one clear verse that shows an Apostle praying or asking a fellow believer that went to be with the Lord. The believers in the Bible only prayed by asking the Lord for each other that were physically alive. I think the person’s arguments for praying for the Saints in heaven is not a good one at all. Thanks for the link though.
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Say good brother Spaniard, did you see where your frie4nd good brother Patrick says that the saints are in heaven offering up prayers? None of the other idolaters have bothered to correct him. They are supposed to be bible scholars. At least they tell me that. the unsaved are blind. The passage he references say that angels holding viles that have the prayers of saints in them, the sweet smell of the prayers come up out of the vile. Angels holding viles….no dead catholics befor god offering prayers. It a lie and good brother Patrick bought straight into it. Its amazing. Its true….god has blinded them. All we can do is tell them there is a better way.
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That’s what I was trying to show Patrick that there is absolutely no verse in the Bible where it is shown beside Jesus a Christian or a prophet who are condoned by God meaning, that it is okay to talk or pray to a person that has died.
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Unbelievable. What we are witnessing is the Babylonian Pagan Semiramis Mystery Religion, alive and well today. It is a spirit, and it lives in these people. It has taken over their minds. How can these people read scripture and go about to do the opposite and then claim you and I don’t understand the bible….that’s why we don’t kiss the Popes foot or Jupiters foot. they better snap out of it, and soon.
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What do you call it when a Christian prays for another person? Isn’t that being a mediator? Don’t you condemn Catholics for asking saints like Mary to do the same thing?
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There is a gulf between the living and the dead. No communication. but feel free to believe what you want.
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It is you who say that those who alive in Christ in Heaven are dead. Do you really believe that? Odd sort of spirit if it told you that nonsense. Did you not know we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses? Or does the Bosco Bible have ‘great cloud of corpses’? You crack me up, Bosco, you really do. Repeating the same old script no matter what arguments are used. Get out of your man-made cult and join the Church Jesus founded.
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Feel free to believe what I want? You seem against that idea…
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Aye good brother Spaniard, good to see you.
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Likewise, I’m going to have to subscribe to always catch you guys in debates, it’s awesome. Should I subscribe to this blog or is it another one?
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You should subscribe to this one and also my own. I publish articles on there that I don’t always put on here.
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Okay
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Thanks. 😉
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Your welcome
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No idea. Just come and check in every now and then.
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One is good and the other is bad.
Both are asking the dead for favors.
You got worster probs than that.
You need to open the door to Christ and have him reveal himself to you.
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Patrick, bravo! keep up the good work.
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Bravo good brother Patrick, keep twisting scripture to your damnation.
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Thanks my friend!
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Well argued Patrick. Thank you for defending the Faith, as handed down to us by the Apostles.
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Thanks for taking a look buddy!
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