In September of 2016,
Quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, he says:
“966 ‘Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.’
“I’m sorry but the Mary of the Bible was stained with original sin (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God), (Luke 1:49-47 46 And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, 47 and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior,). Only Jesus Christ was free from all stain of original sin (1 John 3:5 You know that He was revealed so that He might take away sins, and there is no sin in Him.“
“For all have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of God.”
Is this a rule with absolutely no exceptions? Everyone has sinned? Well, no “Christian” would say that Christ sinned. He is a major exception. What of children below the age of reason, those who do not know what sin is? Have they voluntarily sinned? Have aborted babies sinned? Have the mentally retarded sinned, even though they cannot comprehend sin itself? There seems to be many exceptions to what Paul is saying. It appears that there are exceptions to this rule. The only point here is that, with all obvious exceptions to “all have sinned”, one cannot conclusively say that it is impossible for Mary to be free of sin.
The Immaculate Conception does not mean that Mary did not need Christ as her Savior. All men, after the Fall needed Christ as their Savior, including Mary, as she says in Luke 1:47.
Catholic Apologist Tim Staples explains:
“Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was ‘saved.’ Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was ‘saved’ from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be ‘saved’ completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s ‘salvation’ almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact:
‘Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever.’ (Jude 24-25)
“Six hundred years ago, the great Franciscan theologian Duns Scotus explained that falling into sin could be likened to a man approaching unaware a deep ditch. If he falls into the ditch, he needs someone to lower a rope and save him. But if someone were to warn him of the danger ahead, preventing the man from falling into the ditch at all, he would be saved from falling in the first place. Likewise, Mary was saved from sin by receiving the grace to be preserved from it. But she was still saved.” (1)
Spaniard goes on to say:
“The Catholic Church is trying to exalt a created creature of God to the same status of Jesus Christ the creator. Now they claim that Mary was taken up to heaven the same way Jesus was taken up to the Father but there is no evidence in scripture to support this outrageous claim (Acts 1:9-11 9 After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. 10 While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. 11 They said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.’) I’m sorry but Mary does not have the same qualities as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is the creator of heaven and earth.”
Actually, no my friend. Catholics do not claim that Mary was taken to Heaven the same way as Christ. Christ ascended into Heaven through His own power. Mary was assumed into Heaven by Christ’s power, not her own. You are correct, Mary is not almighty like God the creator of Heaven and earth.
Spaniard continues:
“Mary was not and is not exalted by the Lord as Queen of heaven. Jesus Christ was and is exalted at the right hand of God the Father (Mark 16:19 Then after speaking to them, the Lord Jesus was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.) The title “Queen of Heaven” (pagan goddess) is actually a demonic title as seen in Jeremiah 7:18 which says, ‘The sons gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven, and they pour out drink offerings to other gods so that they provoke Me to anger.’ The Lord has nothing to do with demonic titles.”
Again, Tim Staples explains:
“But the truth is: this text has absolutely nothing to do with the Blessed Mother as Queen of Heaven for at least three reasons:
“1. Jeremiah here condemns the adoration of the Mesopotamian goddess Astarte (see Raymond Brown, S.S., Joseph Fitzmeyer, S.J., Roland E. Murphy, editors, The Jerome Biblical Commentary, Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, 1968, p. 310). She is in no way related to Mary. In fact, “she” did not and does not exist in reality. Mary, on the other hand, was a real historical person who was—and is—a queen by virtue of the fact that her son was—and is—the king.
“2. Jeremiah condemned offering sacrifice to “the queen of heaven.” In Scripture, we have many examples of the proper way we should honor great members of the kingdom of God. We give “double honor” to “elders who rule well” in the Church (1 Tim. 5:17). St. Paul tells us we should “esteem very highly” those who are “over [us] in the Lord” (1 Thess. 5:12-13). We sing praises to great members of the family of God who have gone before us (Psalm 45:17). We bow down to them with reverence (1 Kings 2:19). We carry out the work of the Lord in their names (Matt. 10:40-42, DRV), and more. But there is one thing we ought never to do: offer sacrifice to them. Offering sacrifice is tantamount to the adoration that is due God alone. And this is precisely what Jeremiah was condemning. The Catholic Church does not teach—and has never taught—that we should adore Mary (see CCC 2110-2114; Lumen Gentium 66-67; CCC 971). Catholics offer sacrifice exclusively to God.
“3. To the Evangelical and Fundamentalist, the mere fact that worshipping someone called “queen of heaven” is condemned in Jeremiah 7 eliminates the possibility of Mary being the true Queen of Heaven and Earth. This simply does not follow. The existence of a counterfeit queen does not mean there can’t be an authentic one. This reasoning followed to its logical end would lead to abandoning the entire Christian Faith! We could not have a Bible because Hinduism, Islam, and many other false religions have “holy books.” We could not call Jesus Son of God because Zeus and Hera had Apollo, Isis and Osiris had Horus, etc. The fact that there was a false “queen of heaven” worshipped in ancient Mesopotamia does not negate the reality of the true queen who is honored as such in the kingdom of God.” (2)
Spaniard concludes with:
“The doctrine of the Catholic Church has replaced Jesus Christ as the only true God to be worshiped for Mary, as their new god. The Catholic Church is paganism repackaged with Christian terminology.”
Um, no, sorry. No true Catholic worships Christ’s mother. Catholics worship the Trinity, in case you didn’t know.
— Patrick E. Devens
Source: (Part 1) Mary: A goddess In Disguise
(1) https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
(2) https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-there-a-queen-in-the-kingdom-of-heaven
A one time exception from sin. Cathols will say anything.
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One time exception for sin? There are sinless angels. Adam and Eve were originally sinless. Children under the age of reason cannot sin.
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What is the age of reason? Children who die very young , Jesus comes to them in the spirit world and gives them a chance to accept Him or reject Him. Same for people who never heard the gospel.
Sinless angels. That’s shabby reasoning. Angels aren’t humans. But don’t let that get in the way of a good fable.
Better get off your knees from befor that queen of heaven and seek the Rock from which ye are hewn, befor its too late.
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Shabby reasoning? How so? Are not the angels is Heaven sinless? If they are sinful, then they cannot be in Heaven. It appears to be very sound reasoning my friend.
“Jesus comes to them in the spirit world and gives them a chance to accept Him or reject Him. Same for people who never heard the gospel.”
And where do you draw this conclusion?
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Grab your head, keep it from spinning. I didn’t say angels had sin. I was just reeling from you equating sinless angels as the reason Mary was sinless. You got more to worry about than Mary, my good brother.
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I am not saying that because angels are sinless that Mary is. I am saying that you cannot say that God is the only sinless being. Therefore it is quite a reasonable possibility that Mary was sinless.
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There are lots of heavenly beings. I hope they aren’t sinning.
There is a reasonable possibility I am the Pope. Send me your money.
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@ Patrick
Patrick said-“I am saying that you cannot say that God is the only sinless being. Therefore it is quite a reasonable possibility that Mary was sinless.”
This by far is the worst thing that I have ever heard from a Catholic. God is not the only sinless being…Really? Where do you get this nonsense from Patrick I can be 100% sure it’s not from holy scripture but if not from God then from whom? I think we both know the answer to that question. You cannot provide one single verse in all of scripture that will support your false statement.
There were only three people recorded in holy scripture that is mention being created without sin.
1. Adam
2. Eve
3. Jesus Christ
The first two ended up sinning against the Lord but only Jesus Christ the Lamb of God was sinless from His birth to His resurrection.
Why kneel down to Mary who herself proclaimed that she like everyone else needed a savior. Just worship Jesus, is He not enough for you Catholics that you have to prostitute yourselves to false idols. Can Jesus not fulfill your hearts with joy and gladness.
Repent and only kneel to Jesus Christ who is the ONLY savior of the world and throw kisses (love Him) to Him, not to your lifeless idols.
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Hmmm….Perhaps you should research the reasoning behind the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and also research the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Not everything is in the Bible.
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The immaculate conception with referring to Jesus Christ, not Mary. Let’s get the record straight. Jesus was the one born without sin because Jesus’ Father was God. That completely excludes everyone else.
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How does it exclude everything else? Where does the notion that one’s parent must be sinless for the child to be sinless come in?
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If you look at biology the mother’s blood doesn’t get into the baby’s only the fathers if I’m not mistaken. Jesus wasn’t stained with Mary’s sin because Jesus’ Father was God Himself.
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Last time I checked, the body and soul are two separate things. The soul does not rely on the body for its spiritual cleanliness or filth.
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I’m sorry but your statement makes absolutely no sense, I’m going to move on to your other comments.
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Since when does a person’s parent’s spiritual state determine the offspring?
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Everyone is born in sin because of their parent’s but Jesus Christ Father was God so Jesus was born without sin.
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Bravo. Thank you Jesus.
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But Bosco you admitted to making up all your beliefs: “Who told me the bible is gods only book to human kind?……..I told me that.”
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Very many thanks for this – naturally, Bosco will refuse to let any fresh air into the closed room of his mind, but it is good to have this here 🙂
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Oh you are welcome. I enjoy writing responses to articles. The author of the original post seems to share a similar mindset with Bosco; you know, Catholicism is just paganism.
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So sad that people remain that ignorant 😦
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Oh yes….just take a look down the comment thread…they are just itching to exhibit their ignorance…Bosco and Spaniard that is.
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Ignorance, nice Patrick. I love you enough to tell you to read the Bible without the Catholics doctrine so that you may be saved. If that’s being ignorant so be it.
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Ehhhhh heh.
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One of your more intelligent comments, Bosco 🙂
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My brain was stolen.
No matter how much the Marys tell me I have to pray to their God….I cant. I already know the Christ, personally.
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The argument that we can’t use the title ‘Queen of Heaven’ because pagans used it always reminds me that the word ‘Baal’ used by pagans means ‘Lord’. If the first title is disallowed for Christians why not the second one too?
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That is a great point. Many anti-Catholic writers like to say that Catholicism is just a form of pagan Babylon. Well, I have read that some customs of the pagan religion were a book that held all religious teachings (kind of like the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura), and also that married pagans wore rings on their fingers.
If pagans did those things, why do Protestants abide by similar practices?
Thanks for reading. 😉
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Well good brother Detached, you can always do what the Marys do…..you can call god by his catholic name….Lucifer.
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What are you referring to now? 😛
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How did I know you would challenge me on that? Everyone else in here, even the non catholics, know the CC calls either Jesus or God, Lucifer. We have gone over this a few times, way befor your got here. yes, its true. The CC calls god Lucifer. Well, let me be more exact…..they call THEIR god Lucifer. One of the few things im wholeheartedly in agreement with.
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And where do you draw this conclusion?
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I have to go now. lets see if your big bad fearless leader good brother Chalcedon will answer your question. \
hey good brother Chalcedon….will you help out good brother Patrick here. This guy was born yesterday. Everything is news to him. Thanks in advance.
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I have no “fearless leader” Bosco. I do have friends on here though, which I consider Chalcedon as such.
Born yesterday? No. I just require you to back up your claims, a notion you don’t seem to like.
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Patrick, Bosco is referring the Latin word for “light” used in the Latin Mass. That is about all I know of the matter, having come across this discussion on this blog before.
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Ah, that explains a little bit. Thank you. It would have been a lot easier for him to support his claim in a way of me understanding it, but of course, Bosco is too conceited for that.
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Good brother Patrick, I wanted someone else to hip you to this Lucifer thing. You might believe it more if you hear it from another source. Good sister Celia says shes not a Mary. Her explanation was close, but left alittle out. Who cares? The CC holds up Lucifer. They do a lot of funky stuff. Hey, I aint involved in that catholic madness. Don’t look at me. It just make fun of it.
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No, the RCC does not worship, love, or show any act of veneration of Lucifer.
You have yet to prove that it does.
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Good sister Celia isn’t a mary, so she doesn’t mind talking about Lucifer, the god of the catholic church. The cathols in here don’t like discussing this little FACT. that’s why none have come forward to talk about it. Its not their fault, but they stay off the more embarrassing items of their religion. Like Lucifer being the Father of Jesus. they have a handy explanation for it….just like they do the other million satanic things they do.
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Again, you have not been able to cite any true Catholic teaching that shows Catholic worship Lucifer. Perhaps you should lay off the stupid pills.
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Patrick, I misspoke earlier and have since done a little research. The name Lucifer means Morning Star, not light as I mistakenly wrote earlier. It is important to recall that the angel Lucifer was created by God to be a good and holy angel and therefore his name reflects both goodness and holiness. After his fall, however, out of pride for his great and dazzling beauty, Lucifer is cast into hell and thereafter “masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14). He tempts with with cunning and deceit.
Jesus is the true Morning Star. In Revelation 22:16 he says, “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.” 🙂
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Lucifer is the god of the catholic church. 1700 yrs of its history should convince even the most skeptic.
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What sort of ‘new spirit’ leads a man to tell lies? That a monoglot American of inadequate education should keep telling lies when he has been told the truth is a sad thing to witness.
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Oh yes, it should….especially since there are murals and painting and statues of Satan in every Catholic Church…wait…there aren’t…
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Behind every graven image is a demon.
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Abraham Lincoln! Watch out!!!! Behind your statue throne is a demon!!!! AH!!!!!!
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Just like the statues Solomon was instructed by God to make? There are demons behind those?
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good brother Patrick, will you be a dear and resresh my memory on the statues god had Solomon make? Thanks in advance.
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Sorry, I originally meant the Ark, which had the statues of the angels on top. God did instruct Solomon to build a temple, which if I’m not mistaken, had art work and statues inside it.
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There was artwork on the walls of gods temple. There were no statues of men or women. Sorry catholics.
God does as he wants. But we are not to make for ourselves any graven image.
The ark with the cherubs were not on display for people to file by and slobber on it. Cathols say god commands US to make images because of the cherubs. God commanded US not to make images. that’s just how far these idolatrous cathols will go. Yeah, god commands us to make and bow to graven images. If one really doesn’t care, I guess the catholic church is the place to be. But if one cares, they shouldn’t be in a religion that lies and says god commands us to be idolaters.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks all the while my friends.
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Common sense perhaps needs to knock at your door, Bosco. God commands we worship only him, Catholics worship him. Lying liars say otherwise, inspired by a lyin’ spirit.
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And yet the Ark had statues on it. You said behind every statue is a demon.
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You idolatrous cathols. You want to tell me that thee Ark, where god sat, has demons behind the cherubs that god had made? God didn’t ask you idolaters to make images of men. But you love graven images so much that you will use any scrap of nothing to justify your idolatry. Well, in the mean time, Jesus stands at your door knocking. Open to Him and have all your questions answered.
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You are the one who claims that behind every graven image is a demon.
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Those are images of holy cherubs that sit next to god. God had them made to represent his throne. You cathols make images of sinful man and then bow down befor them. Sorry, but if that’s you reasoning for making graven images, its shabbu, but its your reason. just remember, that practice keeps you from receiving the holy ghost.
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The Latin Mass referred to here is the Easter Exsultet, which one video purportedly translated for its viewers:
Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat Ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum: Christus Fílius tuus.
Flaming Lucifer Lucifer finds mankind I say, O Lucifer who will never be defeated, Christ is your son.
This beautiful song is sung in the vaticanus Haunted House on Eshtar, ooops, I mean Easter. Flaming Lucifer is the god of Catholicism.
But, everyone who is unsaved will wake up in hell. Not just Lucifer worsiping Marys, but everyone not saved.
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See how easy that was??? To actually give an explanation? Even if it appears to be incorrect?
The translation of that Latin excerpt is:
With its flame star the morning come He, I say, O Lucifer, who does not know the west: the Christ the Son of God.
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Here is a larger snipet of the Lucifer worship song;
Orámus ergo te, Dómine,
ut céreus iste in honórem tui nóminis consecrátus,
ad noctis huius calíginem destruéndam,
indefíciens persevéret.
Et in odórem suavitátis accéptus,
supérnis lumináribus misceátur.
Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et tecum vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.
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Youre learning good brother Patrick. Im sure ill drag up more stuff that is news to you. In the meantime, you can always ask Jesus to reveal himself to you. Hes the one with the answers. hes at your door knocking rite now. Let him in and sup with him and he with you.
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Poor Bosco. I have told you many times that this is not about Lucifer. Lucifer is the name in Latin for the Morning Star – tyou really are an utter buffoon Bosco. Were you actually educated? If so, you should demand money back.
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I can see, Bosco, why this one alarms you. Lucifer was created by God to be a good and holy angel and therefore his name reflects both goodness and holiness. After his fall, however, out of pride for his great and dazzling beauty, Lucifer is cast into hell and thereafter “masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14). He tempts with with cunning and deceit. Did you get that, Bosco – he tempts you with cunning and deceit – and you’ve fallen for it. Repent and be saved.
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LOL.
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Hold on to your hat good brother Chalcedon…..theres a new player in town.
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@ thoughtfullydetached
What you just said is illogical and makes absolutely no sense because Baal was given to a false god. Nowhere in the Old Testament can you point to a verse that says, Baal Yahweh is God. That’s like saying since Allah means God in Arabic it’s okay to pray in the name of Allah even though Allah in the Qur’an declares that Jesus didn’t die on the cross and Allah has no Son. By using those names is using a name that Satan used for himself. We use Biblical names that are given to the Lord God.
You have no idea what you are blabbering about.
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Bravo and Amen. A true man of god.
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You are not alone in this fight my brother, I’m with you.
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Thank you Jesus. My prayers have been answered.
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The point is a simple one. ‘Baal’ is not a name. It is a title ‘Lord’ As such it can be applied in a wide number of contexts some legitimate from a Christian PoV and some illegitimate. Similarly ‘Queen of Heaven’ is not the specific name of a specific deity it is a title. Therefore, Christians are not precluded from using it if the faith we have received from the Apostles points us towards a person to whom that title may apply.
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Wrong, Baal is only mentioned to a false deity and it is never used with the true Living God.
The same with the Queen of Heaven. Baal is never attributed to Yahweh so you are inventing things that are not in the Bible and miss using and twisted God’s Word to make it say what you want it to say.
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Baal as a word and as a compound part of a word is frequently used in Scripture quite apart from the Canaanite deity which was given the title ‘Lord,’ ie Baal, in the local language. For example-
“For your husband (ba’al) is your Maker..”. (Isaiah 54:5)
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Baal.html#anc-1
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Again you cannot back it up with scripture that the title Baal was given to Yahweh. Maybe Baal is your lord but as for me and my family Yahweh the God who revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ is my Lord.
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Good article. Yes, many Protestants have lost the thread, often because they do not read the Fathers who worked all this out in the first place, leading to making the same mistakes as those Fathers were calling out.
That is the problem with putting ourselves above those who have gone before. Many of those Protestants are unaware (sometimes willfully) that the original Reformers agree with Rome on almost all of these matters. Luther, of course, but also to a large extent, Calvin, and Zwingli.
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Thanks for reading. 🙂
Yes, the issue of ignoring the Fathers only allows history to repeat itself; the same old heresies come back under new names.
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That is sad that you have to rely on people to understand scripture. That was the Catholic Church’s mission to convince people that they need a priest to interpret the scriptures. Now, you are at their mercy and they have you exactly where they want you. They will make you believe anything they want and you will have to comply because you have no way to know if it’s true or not which you now do have a way to know and that is to compare scripture with the Catholics doctrine. You Catholics say you don’t worship Mary but that’s a lie because you kneel down in front of a lifeless statue and call to it to save you from your troubles. That is pure blasphemy, scripture is clear, that one must NOT bow down to any idol period.
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You are quite the fool. I read and comprehend quite well, from the Gospel through the Patristic Fathers and on to those who were learned in the Faith, such as Augustine, Aquinas, luther, Calvin and many others.
And the proof of your foolishness is that you assert untruths in your comment, since I am not a Catholic.
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I don’t follow Calvin or any other for that matter and your word “fool” shows me how dark your heart is. It doesn’t matter if you are a Catholic or not you need Jesus Christ who loves you and wants you to repent and put your trust in Him. The Bible says that those who aren’t saved call the truth or the message of Christ foolishness as seen in 1 Corinthians 1:18 which says, For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved.
You have rejected the message of Christ since you chose darkness rather than the light (gospel) that’s why you called what I said foolishness.
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“The Bible says that those who aren’t saved call the truth or the message of Christ foolishness as seen in 1 Corinthians 1:18 which says, For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved.”
Exactly, and that is why I called you fool. You need to get over your pride and quit putting yourself in God’s place.
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Wow, your comment reveals how much you don’t know about scripture because it literally says the opposite. True Christians represent God as ambassadors for Him according to 2 Corinthians 5:20 which says, Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.”
Every time you call me or any other believer a fool you are exposing your true nature. Look, you truly need Christ because it is not worth it going to the next life without Jesus.
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As with Bosco, I find myself asking what sort of spirit inhabits a man who feels the need to write so? You are certainly witnessing to the spirit in you, but there seems no echo of the love of Our Lord Jesus Christ in your tone. Anyone can claim to be a witness, but hat is the fruit you bear?
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You say that I don’t love you because I have told you the truth, I know that the truth hurts and I get that. No one likes to be told that they are heading in the wrong direction. But, you cannot point out to anything I have said to you that maligned you in any way.
I have not called you a fool, stupid or any other nasty words. I will never treat you like that but I will tell you the truth.
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You have told me your opinion, and I know from my relationship with Jesus that you are wrong. So from my knowledge of the Lord, you tell me an untruth. I pray He enlightens your darkened understanding.
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How can you tell if what I say is truth or not, with what do you compare what I tell you with? That’s why you have been lead astray because you do not rely on scripture alone.
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Hmmm….the basis of scripture alone is not historical, or even biblical. Perhaps that is why we dismiss that notion.
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Jesus used scripture alone to combat Satan. Jesus said that we don’t live on bread alone but on every word of God that comes out of God’s mouth. And guess what you call the Bible, God’s Word.
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It was the Scriptures my friend which led me into the Church, and it is the Scriptures which help keep me there. But most of all it is the wonder of who it is I encounter at the Eucharist. I know my Redeemer liveth, and every time I receive His body and His blood, He is in me and I am in Him. It is the most precious gift. I hope you have the equivalent where your faith has led you.
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Speaking of the Eucharist, keep an eye out for a post on Holy Communion tomorrow. 😉
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I shall, my friend, I shall. I am amazed that a man can say to another that he does not read Scripture when he has no idea of that man.
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Same. He told me that I worship statues. How would he know?
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Is he a mind-reader?
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Appears that he thinks he is.
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Jesus only died once but you Catholics put Jesus on the cross every mass as if it is really is blood. Jesus used wine as a symbol of His blood to remember Him for what He did for you. You have no idea what the scripture says.
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No, we do not, that is one of the many myths you have swallowed whole. We read in John that when the Lord said people had to eat his body and blood many left him. He did not say to them ‘do not leave it is a symbol’ – at least in my KJV Bible he doesn’t. Why do you think those who followed him left him?
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Wrong, you Catholics believe that you are really drinking His blood. Come on man, do you know your own teachings or what?
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Of course I do, because Jesus said it. You do not answer my question – why do you suppose people left him.
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Show one verse that showing the disciples drinking real blood and that it was nor symbolic? I can show you a verse in the new testament that was giving the command of not drinking blood which is found in Acts 15:19-20 which says, 19 Therefore, in my judgment, we should not cause difficulties for those among the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but instead we should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from blood.
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Let me explain how this works. If I ask you a question I expect and answer, not another question. So in John 6:60-71 many disciples leave. Why? If it was symbolic only, why did Jesus not say ‘Hey, guys, you’ve got me all wrong, it’s just a symbol?’
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lol…okay…I didn’t know that we had rules in commenting…it is news to me…
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Well, yes, its referred to as common courtesy. If you are asked a question, answer it. If you ask us a question, we’ll answer it.
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Jesus sometimes answered a question with another question did He?
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Are you saying you don’t understand common courtesy?
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Lol, I just said that.
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You guys will find any fault in me…lol. Okay ask me again and I will answer you directly, last thing I want is to get you mad and call me a fool….lol
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After 5 years of dealing with Bosco when everyone else has banned him, I don’t think I can be accused of not giving your point of view a voice. You seem to be saying that Jesus was happy to let people leave him and not correct their misunderstanding. This is not the Jesus I know, and if it is the one you know, I would be worried.
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Jesus will never force anyone to love Him or believe in Him. We all have free will which you will agree
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Who mentioned forcing? You said they misunderstood, so he simply had to say that to them – he didn’t. St Paul said those who ate and drank the body and blood unworthily brought damnation on themselves – doesn’t sound symbolic to me.
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They chose to leave Him.
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Because he was breaking kosher
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Negative, that’s not what the context says. They thought that He meant to literally eat Him. That’s not what Jesus meant like I showed you in John 6. He was speaking spiritually.
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Yes they did, and Jesus did not correct them because he meant it literally. Which bit of ‘this is my body’ do you fail to understand? Not one of the early Fathers, and indeed no Christian until recent times, supposed Jesus was speaking ourely symbolically. How can a symbol damn a man? Yet Paul says to eat and drink unworthily will do that.
You have your man-made tradition, I have the words of Jesus which I believe. You explain them away in a most unconvincing manner. All Jesus needed to say to his followers was ‘I am speaking symbolically’ and they would have stayed. He did not say that because He did not mean what you invent.
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I’m sorry….lol, did you just say this to me LOL “You have your man-made tradition, I have the words of Jesus which I believe”
That’s the funniest thing I have ever heard.
LOL, Show me in the context where I’m wrong?
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Let us see. Jesus says that we have to drink his blood and eat his body. Many of his followers leave because they cannot take the hard saying. Your man-made tradition (which does not date from Apostolic times and is unknown in Christian history until the so-called reformation) says it was’ symbolic’. If so, all Jesus needed to say to save their souls was ‘no, no, you have misunderstood me, it is meant symbolically’. My Bible, like your Bible, does not include these lines. So, Jesus meant what he said. I believe him, you explain his words away.
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Oh my, are you serious man? Go reread what I wrote with the verses, what the heck man….you sound like a broken record. I gave it to you in context.
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And you were wrong. Your version has a Jesus who could have saved their souls by saying “i didn’t mean it literally’, not doing so.” That uis not the Jesus I know, and if it is the Jesus you know, you know the wrong Jesus.
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Negative, Jesus in the Gospel told the Pharisees the truth yet they still refuse to believe in Him. You are once again incorrect.
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No, you are dodging again. Jesus’s words turned many followers away. If he had meant it the way you claim, he could simply have said so and saved their souls. He didn’t, because he meant what he said. I believe him you don’t
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Wrong again, are you trying to break a record or something? Jesus doesn’t force anyone to believe. Jesus is the truth and told the truth to everyone He came to but not everyone accepted His message.
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I never mentioned ‘force’. All he had to say is what you say – that it was a symbolic meaning. He did not say that. So there is no Scriptural warrant for your explaining away the plain and simple words of Jesus.
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I already explained it in detail to you but you refuse to look at it. What else do you want me to do. You know the saying, “you can lead a Catholic to the Bible but you can’t make him read it”
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No, you explained away the plain words of Jesus in the lamest answer I ever heard. You really need to do much better than say “I am right because I say I am”.
Your saying is plain silly. I have studied the Bible for 50 years, I live by it, and your insults are childish.
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How can you study something that you reject?
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Where do you get the strange idea I reject the Bible? Unless you can quote me as saying so, you owe me an apology for lying.
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You have said that you follow other books right? Those other books contradict the Bible which you have no problem with that. By following the other books you are disobeying the Word of God just like the Pharisees.
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No, where did I say any such thing? The Church Fathers quote from Scripture, and it was through that source that the Church established Scripture. I follow the word of God, and believe Jesus when he said he founded a Church. Who founded your church?
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you just said to me that the Bible is not the only authority right? So you admit that you have other books that you follow
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No, do please learn to read. I told you that we know what books are in the Bible because the Church, looking at what the Fathers had quoted, established which books were in the NT. That is not the same as saying the Fathers are to be preferred to the Bible, it is saying that the Fathers quote the tradition they had received orally and in writing.
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Learn to read, that’s a good one, wouldn’t have thought of that. You read the fathers that contradict the Bible, there’s your other books.
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Can you show me where the Fathers contradict the Bible? You just said you have never read them, so either you are commenting from a position of ignorance, or you were lying when you said you had never read them; which is it?
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I’m going based on the practices of the Catholics that pray to dead people, Mary worship and…etc. They tell me like Patrick, it in tradition.
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No, the saints and Our Lady are not dead. They are saved and alive in Christ. Our maybe you don’t believe Jesus when he says those who believe in him will live forever more?
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Show me a verse to pray to dead people, you can’t because it is in your other books that make you believe in a different gospel
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Your obsession with dead people is weird. The saved are alive in Christ.
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Me…LOL you are the one that keeps on saying that its okay and I keep asking you to show me
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Please read what I write. They are not dead, they are alive in Christ – so why accuse me of praying to the dead when they are alive in Christ. I believe Jesus, why don’t you try?
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Again, where does it say to pray to them?
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The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
We follow their example. I though you said you believed the BIble?
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Yes, the saints are not spiritually dead but physically dead they are. Nowhere does it say to pray to them, show me a verse that says to pray to them, it does not exist.
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I just showed you where, in Revelation, the saints do what we do – what more do you want?
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You have not shown me anything.
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I did, and I just quoted St James to you. We are to pray for one another, and those who have passed and are alive in Christ will pray for us as we do to them. Or do you not believe they are alive, and do you not believe St Jamrs?
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Nope you haven’t
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Here it is again:
James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
Those who are alive in Christ are are brothers and sisters, we pray for them, they pray for us.
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Yes to alive people in the flesh not those who are in heaven or hell.
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People who are alive in Christ are alive in the flesh. Jesus showed us his body and showed it was a real body. If you don’t believe that, then you are the one with a false gospel.
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That’s not what the Bible says, you are twisting it
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And we have this also:
The Bible tells us to approach the saints with our prayers in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”
Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
These texts give us a way to understand how the saints offer our prayers for us. Our prayers are like nuggets of incense. They smell sweet and good. The 24 elders around the throne, who are saints, and the angels offer these nuggets of incense for us. They set them on fire before the throne of God.
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Nowhere in the New Testament did the disciple drink real blood that’s for vampires which is demonic while the Bible condemns drinking blood in God’s law.
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Why then did so many of his followers desert him?
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Because they misunderstood what He meant. Jesus concluded that what He said what spirit meaning it had a spiritual meaning to it that it meant to have faith in Him. Read it in its full context.
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Why did Christ not make it clear? Now Christ allows others to be in doubt about His own teachings?
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He was clear, they just didn’t understand what He meant. Would you leave someone you follow for misunderstanding even the disciples didn’t understand but said we know that you have the word of life
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He was clear? That why he said that his flesh was TRULY food?
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Okay, this is for Patrick and chalcedon451
Patrick the Catholic believes this: His statement “Again, the Bible is not the entire Word of God. As I said earlier, I don’t think the Bible says I cannot ask my fellow Christians in Heaven to pray for me.”
John 6:47-51
47 “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Here to eat His flesh refers back to what Jesus said in verse 47 which is to believe in Him for eternal life. The eating of His flesh was in reference to faith in Him. You have eternal life not because you eat His flesh but because you believe in Him. The flesh refers to His death on the cross.
John 6:53-61
53 So Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 Anyone who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day, 55 because My flesh is real food and My blood is real drink. 56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood lives in Me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven; it is not like the manna your fathers ate—and they died. The one who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 He said these things while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Therefore, when many of His disciples heard this, they said, “This teaching is hard! Who can accept it?”
61 Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were complaining about this, asked them, “Does this offend you?
Jesus’ disciples didn’t even understand what Jesus was saying so Jesus gives them the meaning because they stayed with Him which the meaning is found in:
John 6:63
63 The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
The Holy Spirit is the One who gives eternal life to those who believe in Jesus. The flesh and blood are symbolic of what the Spirit of God will do. The words of Jesus is spiritual, not literal. The phrase to eat His flesh and drink His blood refers to accept Him as your Lord and Savior, to believe in His death and resurrection. The flesh and blood mean His sacrifice on the cross.
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I will allow @chalcedon451 to answer this one, if he wishes, because I will be releasing an entire article on the Eucharist tomorrow on All Along the Watchtower.
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He doesn’t want to read a whole article – he might be forced to think?
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Oh, true, true.
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I will wait for his reply
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So, your Jesus made no attempt to save people – mine does all the time
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My Jesus is real, you Jesus is in a Church as a statue.
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That is a rather silly thing to say to anyone. How do you know that? I met the Lord as a Methodist 50 years ago, not a statue in sight, and He has led me into His Church. As I say, if you don’t agree, take it up with Him.
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I know that because Methodist are liberal Christians but before that I though that you were Catholic but Methodist and Catholics are both pretty much liberals.
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I thought Chalcedon said that he converted from Methodism to Catholicism.
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I don’t know. Ask him.
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Really, in which case you know nothing about the north of England in the 1950s. This is what is sad about you, you know nothing but pronounce as though you did.
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Okay, tell me do you believe like Patrick that you don’t need the Bible alone to tell you about God? Do you believe in the inerrant Word of God? Answer me
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I believe in the inerrant word of God. I just don’t believe that the inerrant word is the Bible alone.
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There you go, thanks for your honesty. I was right than you are not saved.
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It is not for you to judge whether I will enter Heaven or not. Thanks.
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No idolaters will enter the kingdom of heaven
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I’m glad I only worship the Trinity.
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Keep lying to yourself. that will not save you.
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Hmmm….let’s see…I believe that Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit are God…I worship them…I don’t recall viewing any other being as though they are God.
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I can you worship Jesus and at the same time bow your kneels to statues, that blows my mind and pray to dead people. You don’t worship God because you need to decide either bow your kneels to Jesus alone or to Mary. Pick, you cannot do both.
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Just because you bow to another creature doesn’t mean that you re worshipping them.
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Yes it does, I will show you in the Bible.
1 Kings 19:18 which says, But I will leave 7,000 in Israel–every knee that has not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
You see bowing your knees and throwing kissing is worship
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I have to get going right now Spaniard, but don’t worry, I’ll answer your comments on “statue and saint worship”. Perhaps I’ll write a future article on it.
Dios este contigo.
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Okay, I will read it. Have a good day Patrick.
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Praying to the dead is not worshipping them. By praying to the dead, all Catholics do is ask them to pray for us. To “pray” means to “ask”.
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That is witchcraft Deut.18 You ask living people to pray for you not physically dead people.
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Okay, I’ve been answering for too long, my eyes hurt from the screen. Talk to you guys later.
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The inerrant Word founded a Church which gave us the Bible – why would I settle for only one half of what He has given us?
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The other Books that you are referring to was not accepted by the Jewish people in the Old Testament. They knew it was inspired. The Books were rejected as canonical by the Jews and those Books even contradict the N.T.
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No, I am referring to the NT itself. If you can tell me where, in the NT, it lists the books that are in the NT, then I will admit you need only the Bible and not the other half of what Jesus left. I look forward to your doing that.
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Every Word of God is in the Bible. I have the Bible that says of itself that it is the Word of God. The ball is in your corner, prove to me that your tradition is the Word of God?
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Which is no answer to my question. I asked you to show me that the Boble is sufficient by itself. To do that you have to show me where the Bible tells you what books it contains. If your man-made tradition is correct, you can show me. If my Catholic view is correct then the Bible’s books are detailed in Tradition. All you have to do is show I am wrong. Now do, please, try to answer the question rather than repeat a mantra.
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I did show you, the Books in the N.T. are considered God’s Word, which part don’t you get?
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I asked you how you know which books are in the NT. You have failed to tell me.
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Because the Books itself claim to be God’s Word and those who wrote it.
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That has to be the lamest answer ever. No, I asked you how you know which books are in the NT. Show me where the NT lists which books are in it – simple, and you can’t answer.
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The NT Books were accepted by the early church (Not RCC) It was passed around to all the churches in the time of the 1 and 2nd century.
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The early Church was the Catholic Church. You must prove to me it was not – go ahead.
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WOW! wrong, are you serious, oh boy. The Catholic Church didn’t exist until Constantine, in the fourth century.
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How very ill-informed you are. Cite me a single serious work of history which confirms your view? I commend to you Henry Chadwick’s history of the early Church. God brought you here to get you educated, and I am happy to be his instrument.
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What is your point? Where are you trying to get out? Nowhere does the Bible says, that the Catholic Church is His church that comes from your make believe book
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Jesus founded a Church which endures. The Catholic Church, like the Orthodox Church traces its pedigree back through the Church Fathers to that Church. Ah, but of course, you have never read them. We shall continue to try to educate you. Are you very young, or just not very well-educated?
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Oh boy, show me a single verse in the Bible that the church is the RCC?
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Jesus founded a Church on Peter, indeed he changed Simon’s name to ‘rock’ and said he founded his church in that rock. It;s in the BIble, look it up.
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The church are the Christians, Christians make up the church not a building
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At what point did I mention a building?
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Just telling you just in case you didn’t know.
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Irrelevant. I do wish you would not attribute to me, even by inference, things I have never said.
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I have to since you don’t have the Spirit how can you know truth
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I have had the Spirit in me for 50 years.
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maybe a spirit but not the Holy Spirit
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I could say the same to you, but because I know Jesus and he tells me to love my separated brethren, and because he tells me that the meek will inherit the earth, I do no presume. I know who I meet at the Eucharist, and if you are calling me a liar, then I know you are wrong, and sorry you are a bigot.
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You don’t have Christ or the Spirit, you have been deceived my friend and unless you repent and believe in Jesus alone you will never be saved.
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That is your opinion, to which you are entitled. When pray for 50 years with the Bible, you will look back and realise what a sad and foolish thing you have written. I shall pray for you.
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You can pray for me all you want but Mary will not hear you. I only worship and pray to Jesus Christ who you have rejected in favor for your false tradition
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What a sad chap you are. Why tell lies? I have told you I love Jesus, so why lie and say I have rejected him? What sort of witness is that?
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You pray to other people instead of only Christ. You worship Mary and the saints.
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Let us see what St James says:
“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17).
Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
I am sorry you appear not to understand the Bible.
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Yes, we should pray for one another WHO ARE ALIVE PHYSICALLY. James is talking about brothers who need our prayers that are being persecuted
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I believe in the resurrection of the body, so I believe that the saints are alive, physically, in Christ. What do you believe?
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You believe in a false interpretation
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Again, your opinion. On my side of the argument is the weight of all the Church Fathers and Christian tradition before the Reformation.
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Your arguments are based on false teachers
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It is from those same teachers the early Church established Scripture. You have not read one word of them, so how do you know they are false?
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Your early fathers are men with deceptive teachings while true Christian follow the Word of God you follow men
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As you have not read a word they have written, how can you know that? I follow Jesus, and the Fathers were his instrument for establishing Scripture.
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You worship the Queen of Heaven who is a demon. mary and the Catholic Mary have nothing in common
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Again, please stop telling lies. I do no such thing. And please top insulting the mother of Jesus, He doesn’t like it. I have to tell you that there is a special circle of hell reserved for such people.
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You just said that you bow down to her, now who is lying
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No, please try to read with understanding. I said that bowing was a sign of respect, not worship. You read it through your bigotry and not with a clear eye. I am becoming convinced your spirit is addicted to lies. Tell me who the father of lies is?
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Listen to me, I have been reading what you write and you are bowing down to a created creature, that is idolatry
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No, bowing is a sign of respect, not a sign of worship. So, I bow to the Cenotaph in Whitehall on Remembrance day in respect of the men who dies in the Second World War. Does that mean I am worshipping them?
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And yet you trusted them to promulgate the NT canon….
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The church are believers who make the church that you blasphemous one.
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Indeed, the Church is the community of believers gather together on the rock upon which Jesus founded his Church. I am sorry if that does not sit your man-made ideas, but it is in the Bible and the Church Fathers from whom we derive the Bible. You would not know that because you are educated.
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Look, I don’t read other people like you do so by saying that I believe in man-made tradition is very silly
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So, who founded your church and gave you the idea that Jesus did not mean what he said?
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Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
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Really, show me the lineage then. Anyone can make that claim, but the Catholic Church can offer historical proof. What have you got?
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We go by God’s Word period. The born again Christians go by God’s Word
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But you admitted your dependence on the early Church to know what that word is, so what you write here is not true. If you went by the NT alone, you would not be able to tell me what books were in it. Elementary failure in logic 101.
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Negative I never said that, I depend on Jesus Christ who preserves His Word. I will never ever ever depend on people but only on Jesus
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No, you wrote that you knew what was in the NT because the early Church collected the books. Jesus founded a Church. It tells us what is in the Bible.
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Wrong, Jesus is the one who preserves His Word, now He uses people but at the end, it is Him who does it.
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Who wrote this:
The NT Books were accepted by the early church (Not RCC) It was passed around to all the churches in the time of the 1 and 2nd century.
It was you, saying the Church told you.
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Negative, I just told you that Jesus uses people to accomplish His will but it is Jesus who does it.
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Indeed, he does, and he used the Church he founded which is the Catholic Church. The Church Fathers show the lineage of the Catholic Church back to Peter. Show me some actual evidence that your church can trace itself to Jesus – clue, you saying it is so is not evidence.
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Jesus never founded the Catholic Church, Satan is the one who founded the Catholic Church.
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That is your opinion and not evidence. The Church Fathers provide a clear line back to Jesus.
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Your false demonic religion is a lie. The Bible does not support your lies
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I see you have no actual argument, which is sad.
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It’s the truth. You worship idols and the Bible says not to.
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No, I don’t. What a very silly thing to say.
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It’s the truth, go to any Catholic church and they will bow down and kiss it and pray to it
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I bow to the Queen and kiss her hand, and I pray for her. I do not worship her. You seem very poorly-educated.
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Thank you, you see that wasn’t hard to say. You do worship a statue. You bow down to a false goddess. you cannot do that, you are violating God’s written Word
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Please stop telling lies, or I shall start believing your spirit is from the father of lies. I told you that I bow to the Queen, how is she a statue?
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You are telling me that you have never bow down to Mary’s image at church?
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I am saying just that. I am also saying that bowing is not the same as worship. Worship is given to God alone. I bow to the Queen of my country as a sign of respect, I bow to an icon of Our Lady as a sign of respect. Only the very ignorant think that is worship.
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Yes it is as seen in 1 Kings. Sorry but you are worshipping a demon
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No, it is perfectly clear that worship is given to God alone. 1 Kings refers to pagan gods. You seem curiously ignorant of history.
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You are worshipping someone other than Christ.
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Anyways, I have to go, thanks for the debate, it was great
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Always interesting, and I am happy to help further your education. Take care, and may God go with you.
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Just like Protestants may kneel before the Bible and kiss it. Book worshippers.
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And I founded Burger King.
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WOW! wrong, are you serious, oh boy. The Catholic Church didn’t exist until Constantine, in the fourth century.
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I don’t recall Christ leaving us a symbol…I thought he sais that it was His Body and Blood, not symbols of.
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But in reality, anyone who refuses to see Truth is a fool, no? We think that you are refusing the Truth.
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There you go, the truth comes out. I will never call anyone a fool or any other name for that matter. But, you can call me whatever you like I will never stoop to your level. You are the ones who worship idols and sin against the Lord, not I. Why not just worship Jesus?
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Idols, huh? I don’t recall doing any of that lately… @chalcedon451 do you remember doing any idol worship recently?
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My mother in law, like she likes to says “I’m skin and bones Catholic” and guess what, she has in her home built an altar with a huge Mary that she like all other Catholics pray to. That’s idol worship.
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Catholics don’t pray to statues.
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I guess in the Catholic Church, they teach you to lie.
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No, ain’t worshipped no idols lately – am I slipping up?
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Spaniard thinks that you and I are….Didn’t you hear? Idol worship is catholic101.
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I keep hearing it, but some people need to learn that repeating lies doesn’t make them the truth.
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…No…I just think that while NEO is not Catholic, he’s closer to the Truth than you are.
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Funny because both of you are farther from the truth than what you think.
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Good brother Neo, if you read Aquinas and Augustine and believe what they say, you deserve every bit of criticism.
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If you comment on things you have not read, what does that make you, Bosco?
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You have read them Bosco? Well, perhaps you should reread their works without your anti-Catholic bias blindfold over your eyes.
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Ive seen enough. It aint nothing but a bunch of nothing. That’s why you think those guys are gods.
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Quite the point, NEO. Why not take a look at the religious authorities that have gone before us? Did God really leave us with just a book? No one to teach us what the book means?
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Well, if I try to understand them without a teacher, I might make my own private interpretation like you, and the Bible itself warns against that.
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)
Perhaps I am following the example of the eunuch.
“And he was returning, sitting in his chariot, and reading Isaiah the prophet. And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.” (Acts 8:28-31)
There is nothing wrong with following the interpretation of God’s Church.
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That’s an example of an unsaved person trying to read the bible and a saved person leading him to Christ. He didn’t lead him to a room full of homos wearing fish hats.
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So you are saying that “saved” people know exactly what the Scriptures teach? That is why there are so many divisions in Christianity?
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Good brother Spaniard is correct. You don’t even know what is coming out of your mouth. So many divisions in Christianity is due to saved people? This shows you have no idea of what it is to be saved. I was tricked into being saved, but I was saved anyhow. I don’t mean to lay this on you good brother Patrick, but you need to hear it. just for the record…the divisions in Christianity has nothing to do with the saved. the saved don’t have buildings of a flag or costumed pedophiles. its sad that you cant imagine following Christ without costumed liars. You need costumed liars. You love costumed liars. What liars do you need you say? the costumed liars that you eat the cracker out of their hands. the ones that lie to you and tell you they are celibate. that’s who?
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Patrick said-“Well, if I try to understand them without a teacher, I might make my own private interpretation like you, and the Bible itself warns against that.”
You just contradicted yourself with that statement because they, those you deem worthy to know the Bible got their own interpretation but you are brainwashed to think that they are the only ones that can get their own interpretation but you can’t.
The reason why you rely heavily on your priest to tell you what the Bible means is because you do not have the Holy Spirit because you have given your life to the Church and not to the Living God Jesus Christ.
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Uh, no, sorry. I rely on the God given interpreting authority of Christ’s Church. What do you rely on?
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I rely on the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to give me interpretation. You rely on men but I rely on God, that’s the difference.
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Good brother Spaniard, these unsaved have no idea of what it is to know Jesus personally. They join a religion that promises to give them salvation….just eat this. They truly believe this. But it is an inner spirit that compels them. The same spirit as Nimrod. They are drawn to a female deity and colorful men in colorful costumes and great swelling words and pageantry and things that can be seen…..nothing for the soul. Everything for the eyes. That’s because they have given their souls over to a visible god, because they cant trust in an invisible god. The love the things that be of men, and not those that be of god.
The only way to reach them is prayer and slowly explaining to them the ways of Christ. Some of these Mary worshipers seem too far gone to help. But one never knows.
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I would agree with you 100% It is true in what you have said Bosco. I know that I cannot convince them but it is the Holy Spirit who does the convincing. You and I are here to defend the truth and give them the truth which I appreciate what you are doing with these guys. Continue the good work Bosco, whatever we do for the Lord is not in vain.
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We are here for a reason. the words of God do not come back void, but do what they were intended to do. These Mary worsipers think they speak Gods words. But they are trying to tell us to follow a female deity and to kiss a mans ring, if we are good enough not to have to kiss his foot. they are telling us to file by and kiss the foot of Jupiter who sits up in the Vaticanus Haunted House. They want us to believe god is bodily inside of some golden sun symbol of Nimrod. They want us to forsake the invisible God for their factory made wafer.
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Like the Word of God says, at the end, all who worshiped idols will be put to shame.
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I couldn’t help but chuckle when good brother Chacledon told you that he believes the words of Jesus. Is that why he calls men Father and vainly repeats prayer? Is that why he belongs to a religion that provides graven images and has its flock on their knees befor them, looking up lovingly into the face of the image, and praying and sobbing…..Oh dear Mary, I adore you…save me at the hour of my death. but we don’t worship her. We just like her alittle. Well, that’s what we tell the prots to shut them up.
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If he believed in the Bible he would be a Catholic who worships the queen of heaven who is a demon.
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Spaniardvii, why do you tell lies? Are you, like Bosco, inhabited by a spirit addicted to lies?
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Appears so…
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We have been through this a million times. You call your father, father, and if no one called anyone father, calling God the father would mean nothing. No one worships Mary or statues.
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FYI, Catholics ask Mary for her prayers at the hour of death.
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Better hope the bible is wrong and that Mary can hear you. jesus himself said there is an impassible gulf. So drop the bible and pick up the catsakism and hope for the best. just for good measure, maybe you should bow down befor a Mary graven image and ask her to not to forget to save you.
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Hey Bosco, look what Patrick said-“FYI, Catholics ask Mary for her prayers at the hour of death.”
Yet the Bible is very clear in Acts 4 that there is no other Savior but Jesus Christ.
And in Romans 10:13 it says,13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
They call on Mary for their salvation but the Bible says to call on Jesus, not Mary which the Catholic have made her be a goddess for them.
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Spaniardviii, if you read with attention to the meaning of words, you would not have made the mistake you make here. Where does Patrich write that Catholics ‘call on Mary for their salvation’? He says very plainly that we ask Mary for her prayers. That is a careless misrepresentation, and I am disappointed in you.
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And I’m disappointed in you choosing to call out to Mary instead of the Living God Jesus Christ, shame on you!
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At what point did I say any such thing? I simply pointed out that Patrick had not said what you claimed.
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Turn to Jesus my friend and leave Mary alone but glory Jesus Christ
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I have known the Lord longer than you have had breath in your body, and I followed Jesus when your family were into witchcraft.
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You know something Chalcedon451, I would love to say Amen to that but your worship of Mary stops me because you have a different god.
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If I worshipped Mary, you’d have a point; as I don’t, you don’t. 🙂
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Do you pray to Mary? If yes why not to Jesus alone?
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I pray to Jesus for my salvation, and I ask Mary to pray for me to her Son – do you not see they are not the same thing?
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You cannot pray to Jesus and at the same time to a woman that cannot hear you. Mary was a righteous woman and faith to her savior Jesus Christ. Jesus wants all of your heart not a part of it to share with all of the saints
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You are not reading what I am writing. I ask her to pray for me to her Son.
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You don’t need to do that because Jesus says that you can pray directly to the Father in His name so what the heck are you getting that info from because its not the Bible….that’s for sure
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I pray directly to the Father, and I ask others to. You are just not reading what I am writing. I ask the saints and Mary to pray for me – I don’t pray to them.
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Sorry, but you are violating God’s Word by praying to others that cannot hear you and hoping on them rather than Jesus.
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Again, and now for the 4th time, read what I wrote. I said I ask them to pray FOR me, not that I pray to them. Do you believe that those who are alive in the afterlife are deaf, or bound by the restrictions of this earth. Ah, my friend, if you know Jesus as I do, how you would long for the end of this mortal life and to be in that eternal bliss.
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Only God can hear all prayers, you are making these saints to be like God meaning to have God’s nature, that is insane.
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Again, I did not say I prayed to the saints. This is now the fifth time I have said this to you. You seem to have very little idea of the eternal bliss that awaits you if you think those who are alive in Christ cannot hear you. You mother can hear you, and you can ask her to pray for you to God – who hears all our prayers.
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I only pray to Jesus and have given Him my life. Jesus said that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. How can you know who believes in Jesus by seeing if they worship Him alone.
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I worship him alone. And I do not tell lies about what other people believe.
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You worship Mary to…violating God’s Word
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Again, a direct lie. I worship only God. Why tell lies? Your spirit is a lying one, I perceive. I shall pray to the Lord to give you a spirit of truth which you seem to need rather badly.
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Wrong to worship Mary to get to God. You said that you pray to Mary so that she will ask God for you. You worship her to get to God. That’s idolatery
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Please quote where I said I worship Mary, or apologise and stop telling lies. Lying is not a sing of being saved, you know.
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By praying to Mary and bowing down to her is worship.
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Again, for the 7th time, I do not pray to Mary, How often must I tell you that. Nor is the act of bowing the same as worship. We are reaching the stage my friend where Matthew 18:16-17 applies.
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Okay let me asking some questions?
Have you ever prayed to Mary or prayed the rosary?
Have you ever bow down either to a statue of any kind or to no statue but prayed to either Mary or a saint?
Answer me now
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No, I ask Mary to pray for me, as I have told you 8 times. Which bit of that did you not get. No, I have never bowed to a statue, and no I ask Mary and the saints to pray FOR me, as I have told you 8 times now. Are you unable to read?
The Rosary is an aid to meditation and to pondering on the Scriptures. It is one of the many prayerful ways I read the Bible.
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What do you think asking means? To ask is to pray, same thing. For an example: I ask Jesus to help my family know Him. Asking meant that I prayed to Jesus.
For you to ask Mary to pray for you means that you first pray to Mary to pray for you.
You are a big time liar but I know what you constantly lie. Ask me and I’ll tell you
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No, it isn’t, and that, oddly enough, is why there are two different words for two different things. If you have reached the stage of needing to twist the English language because you have no argument, than I am afraid you are beyond my help. If you wish to imitate the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland, best of luck my friend. You might recall she said a word meant what she wanted it to mean. This the mode of all who are inspired by the father of lies; I am sorry to see you reduced to it.
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Oh boy, you are in denial but how can you know the Word without having the Spirit of God. You are truly deceived. I think I understand why you Catholics kept saying “I don’t worship Mary or pray to her” Than come back and say “I ask Mary to help me and pray for me”
I don’t know Chalcedon451, I thought you had a chance to leave idol worship but now oh man…you are scary.
Anyways good talking to you Chalcedon451 say hi to your dead buddies for me.
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I am afraid you understand very little, including manners and the use of the English language.
One day, I pray you will be enlightened and that your mind will cease to be closed.
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We ask Mary to pray for us. I did not say that I asked Mary to redeem me.
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Chalcedon451, you call out to Mary and I’ll call out to Jesus and let’s see who makes it to heaven.
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Again, you are misrepresenting what I wrote, as you misrepresented what Patrick wrote. That’s poor witnessing brother.
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Jesus loves you turn to Him alone for Pete’s sake man.
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I turned to Him before you were a twinkle in your father’s eye, and He has led me straight these many years, so do not tempt me into your path. You are not Jesus, neither are you the Holy Spirit. I am led by them, not a mere man who imagines himself more than he is. You seek to tell me Jesus is wrong – oh presumptuous man, puffed up with vanity.
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My path is Jesus Christ and Him alone, are you saying that I’m deceived because I worship Jesus alone? Come on Chacedon451…really? You believe that…wow
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No, I am saying you were led where you were led, as I was led where I was led. You tell me I am wrong, I simply tell you you are wrong about one thing, which is to tell me I do not know Jesus. I have known and lived in Him these many years, and I owe my life to Him, and more undeserved favours than I can list.
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But Chalcedon451, how can you say you know Jesus but at the same time pray to other saints and Mary. The only one who can hear all prayers is God, that’s what makes Him God but for you to say Mary hears your prayers is to make her like God. That’s a BIG problem.
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You misunderstand what you misrepresent. I ask the saints to pray for me to Jesus, as I ask Mary to. I do not pray to them, I ask for their prayers – they are familiar friends in some cases. and I pray for those I love and ask them to pray for me to the Lord Our God.
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Stop asking those who died for they cannot hear you. Only God alone can hear all prayers, you are putting these people in the same level of God….stop it.
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Do you not believe that those who are saved die and rise again? I do. So Mary is alive, as are that blessed crowd of witnesses.
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Stop loving Mary, and love Jesus alone
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If you really love Jesus, hopw can you not love his mother? What a very strange and emotionally stunted relationship you must have with the God who is love. On the Cross he reached out and cared for her by asking St John to look after her. What love was that? All I can do is a pale imitation of my Lord, but I can try to follow him in that as in all things.
Start to open out your love, God is love, He has more love than your narrow range can begin to imagine, He has saved you and me, and we are miserable sinners. Do not presume to tell me who I can love – God is love, and if I am configured to Him, then I love too.
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My love is only reserved for Jesus. I love my wife and kids but my love to Jesus is a devoted one, meaning that I worship Him alone that’s love for God.
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And I worship Him alone. I love Mary, not as much as I love my wife and five children, but there are grades of love. Worship, that is for the Trinity alone.
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You do not worship God alone, that is a lie. You worship Mary and the saints
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That, my friend, is a sad and bigoted statement. I have told you that I worship God alone. What a rude fellow you are, to come into my house and call me a liar. Because I love you and hope for your salvation I forgive you – but if you think your witness here will help your version of the Faith once given, you are deluded. I treat you with courtesy, you call me a liar. I shall leave our readers to decide which of us has the true Spirit and the love of Jesus.
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So, you hope for my salvation through who Mary? give me a break
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Again, quote where I say that? I don’t. You seem to be addicted to telling lies. Is that spirit in you a lying one? We know who the father of lies is. As I say, your witness here is a poor one, and I am sad that you discredit yourself and your character.
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You Mary worshipers are crazy, putting your hopes on a physically dead person, now that’s nuts. Good luck on that.
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Again, you misrepresent what has been said. Do you suppose if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth? No one worships Mary.
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Now, if you repeat that does it make it okay to bow down to Mary and pray to her? Come on man….Jesus is the only one to pray to and worship. I have hope for you Chalcedon451, don’t let me down. I know you can get saved and come home to Jesus.
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It is fine to honour the mother of Jesus; it is wrong to worship her. As for being saved, I was saved when the Lord drew me to Him, and I am being saved through having Him in me and me in Him, and at the last, through His love and mercy I hope to see Him face to face.
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I want it to be true because my heart is to tell people about Jesus and I hope that for you. The problem I’m having with you is that you glorify Mary even though you say you don’t but your action says you do. The Bible says to only pray to the Father and the Son not to other people. I’m saying pray to, when you pray to someone else for help you are rejecting Jesus and saying “Jesus you can’t do what Mary can do” even though you don’t say that your action says it.
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I honour Mary. It was through her that my Saviour came into the world; it was to her he went to dry his tears and mend his hurts; it was to her He spoke in the Cross. Oh why would my heart not love her and wish to call her blessed? We ask others to pray for us. Mary is with her son in Heaven, and I ask her to pray for me, as I ask her to pray for others.
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Mary didn’t give you eternal life Jesus did. If it wasn’t for God who did the miracle to Mary to have Jesus He wouldn’t be here. You are giving the wrong person honor. Only Jesus Christ deserves the honor.
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I never claimed she did, so I don’t get your first sentence. She assented to be the handmaid of the Lord, and she suffered for her decision, and I love her for her sacrifices. Can you imagine what it was like to be a young bethrothed woman who was pregnant, and not by your betrothed? They stoned such women. She had incredible faith and courage, so why would I not honour her and bless her name?
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You said-“She assented to be the handmaid of the Lord, and she suffered for her decision, and I love her for her sacrifices.”
Sorry man but I’m being very serious, that statement is demonic. That made me raise my eyebrows.
My friend Jesus is the one who sacrificed Himself for us, what is wrong with you?
You have spoken more about loving Mary than Jesus, I don’t think that you have said anything in regards to how much you love Him but to Mary is as you have been bewitched that her.
I’m really really sad for you. i will most definitely pray for your salvation.
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Luke 1:38 she says she is the Lord’s handmaid Mat 1:19, Joseph was minded to out her away.
Where do I say Jesus did not sacrifice himself? You must read my friend, not rush in with your prejudices.
I love Jesus and have for longer than you have been alive. I also love his mother, not in the way I love him.
I am sad that your ignorance and prejudice lead you to insult the mother of Jesus. There is, I believe, a special circle of hell for those who insult his mother, and I shall pray you are enlightened before you reach it.
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You said-“I am sad that your ignorance and prejudice lead you to insult the mother of Jesus. There is, I believe, a special circle of hell for those who insult his mother, and I shall pray you are enlightened before you reach it.”
Sorry to disappoint you but my sins has been washed away through faith in Jesus Christ for He is my savior and my Lord.
You have put your hopes in Mary that cannot save you. I’m asking you today to repent and believe in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but it simply isn’t true that once you are saved you cannot lose that salvation. We see examples in the NT of those who were saved losing their salvation – look at Ananias and Sapphira. Paul himself talked of running the race to the very end. We are saved when we know Jesus, we are saved through participation in Him, and we shall be saved by Grace at the last. But you or I could do something evil and die without being reconciled with the Lord. Do you suppose that if you killed a man and he killed you before dying, you would be saved?
And please, you are coming close to telling lies. Where did I write I placed my hopes in Mary?
And please, I believe that my salvation is through the one name that is above all names.
I forgive you because you are an ignorant man who has been fed nonsense about Catholicism, the world is full of such men.
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I wrote 3 parts on “if a Christian can lose their salvation which I will not get into because it’s a lengthy topic. You are welcome to read it in my blog and leave a comment or not, whatever you its fine but scripture is clear on that topic.
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I read it, and am sad that you reason so poorly. Do you really believe that if you do something evil and fail to repent you are still saved?
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If I give you a gift is say its all yours and than I take it back, was it really your?
I mean Jesus said in John 10:28 that He gave them eternal life and they shall never perish. Either we have it or not.
But I will not continue this discussion here on eternal life. Go to my site pick a verse that I used and tell me how I miss translated and we can go from there. I want to stick to why you worship Mary rather than Jesus?
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You misunderstand the nature of salvation. I ask you a simple question, you reply with another question. So, answer me this: if you, spaniard, kill a man and die without repenting, are you still saved.
As with so many Protestants, you fail to grasp the meaning of Scripture in its fullness because you read it outside the Church which gave it to you. Can you show me where, in Scripture, anyone says ‘pick a verse’? No, because you proceed in a manner unkbown in Scripture.
And no, I have now told you on at least a dozen occasions I don’t worship Mary. So I ask you, why do you lie? Is the spirit in you a lying one?
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If you never repent and profess to follow Jesus, that means that you were never saved because there was no evidence of a changed heart according to 1 John 2:19
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Indeed, but how do we know you are not one of those, you are not dead yet. If even those converted through St John could fall away, why do you suppose you cannot? Do you suppose Diotrephes did not think he was saved?
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You know because you will always repent, remember you are born again (spiritually) and are not the same old person as before. The Holy Spirit lives inside of the believer to discipline him if he strays to bring him back to repentance.
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So you say, but how can anyone know whether you speak truly. St John at one point thought Diotrephes was ‘one of us’ until it became clear he was not. If I were to go on your propensity for lying, I would be dubious of your claims. But I am courteous fellow and accept them.
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I’m sorry but the liar here between you and I its you.
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I have asked you to provide evidence that I worship Mary. I have told you I don’t, You provide no evidence.
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Yes you do but you are so blind that you can’t see it.
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No, that is the lying spirit which occupies your heart blinding your eyes. I have said I don’t, and if you will not accept me word, why should I engage with a foolish, vain fellow who rattles like an empty pot with a pea in it?
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I have asked you some questions…go answer them
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I just did. But if you keep on lying and calling me a liar, there is no dialogue, because your are killing it by denying my pledged word.
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I sent you something go read
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Where? And why should I read your stuff if you refuse to read links I send you. Your witness is a poor one my friend, and I am ashamed for you. You come here, you are treated courteously, and you accuse me of being a liar without the slightest bit of evidence. if this is your version of being a follower of Jesus, you need to up your game my friend.
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You don’t have to read my stuff, do what you want. later
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Where is the link?
Any how, it is nearly midnight here, and I have a long journey in the morning and an early start, so I bid you goodnight.
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Thanks.
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What does asking for a person to pray for you have to do with regarding someone other than Jesus as Savior?
Nowhere in asking Mary to pray for you do you ask her to save you.
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I love the above picture. I guess that is Christ and God and the holy spirit crowning Diana the queen of heaven. God giving his glory to another. Fact is, god says a million times that he will not give his glory to another. but don’t let that get in the way of a good fable.
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Patrick, your arguments are very weak and it seems that you are a professional in making pretzels because you sure know how to twist scripture very well. I will make a post in response to your response to my post.
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Thank God for small favors. I finally get some help in here. And from someone who hasn’t been beaten down to a pulp like I have. Thank you jesus.
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I’ve been waiting for some new commentators…I was hoping whoever came would have a slightly different argument then Bosco….alas…
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Eh heh.
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Twist scripture very well? You seem to be an advocate for that. You hate the idea of a God given authority like the Church when it comes to interpretation.
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I hate (hate is not towards people but toward false teaching) the fact that people like you are preaching a false gospel and taking people away from Jesus to worship Mary and saints. I hate not you Patrick or the Catholics but I hate your false doctrine.
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But who is your God given authority? Where are the bishops and elders that rule over the Church?
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Everyone who believes in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit who directs their lives and opens up their minds to holy scripture
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“Everyone who believes in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit who directs their lives and opens up their minds to holy scripture”, those people are your authority?
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No, my authority is the Holy Spirit who interprets scripture to me.
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But you just said that if men are inspired by the Spirit, then they are your authority.
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Sad. These cathols just cant understand not having some pedophile in a costume lording over them. they need the pedophiles in costumes…they love it. they cant understand why we don’t love it.
The Lord is my Shepherd.
ThePope is their shepherd. He leadeth priests to greener pastures when the going gets rough. He restoreth new little boys for them to rape. yea though the priests walk through the valley of the court system, they will fear no jail time, because the Pope will move them out of the jurisdiction.
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The problem with the Catholics is that the Bible is not their authority and their tradition cannot be backed by God’s Word so they can claim whatever they like or invent any doctrine and call it authoritative. The Catholics need to just read the Bible which by the way is power converting the soul. Jesus has the title in the Book of Revelation, the Word of God. For Catholics, stop relying on traditions that are misleading you but solely rely on the Word of God that has the power to give you eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.
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Amen and Amen.
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who told you that the book is the sole repository of truth?
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Who told you that its a “dead letter”?
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I don’t believe it to be a dead letter.
But you haven’t answered my question.
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If I want to fix my car, I go to a manual. If I feel like reading gods inspired words, I open a bible. There are commentaries on scripture. ive read a few of those. But they are commentaries on scripture….not commentaries on that homo Cardinal Newman or Agustine or any other liars. You can feel free to go where ever you church tells you to go. Catholic literature says the same thing all the time……that it is gods true church. It never stops trying to convince its followers they are in the right place. then they die and wake up in hell. Too late to get their indulgence money back.
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You are a living example of the folly of the arrogance of fallen man in assuming he knows what the Bible means. You are wrong on so many things. ‘Indulgence money’, you still living in the sixteenth century Bosco?
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All the millions of people your “church” sold indulgences to are going to wake up in hell. This is a true statement. Your demonic religion sold them…id doesn’t matter if it was yesterday or 400 yrs ago. You seem to think time makes it go away. There is no such thing as time. Your religion is as guilty then as it is now.
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Spaniard, do you find such generalisations helpful? I usually find anyone who begins ‘the problem with a whole group of people is …’ is talking from his own perspective, which is fine, but when one slanders a whole group of people, it simply exposes one’s prejudices. Let me ask you where the Bible comes from? How do you know what books it should contain? This was not revealed to you personally, it is part of that Tradition you have just condemned. I read the Bible daily, and I know Jesus, and I am a Catholic. I do not go around condemning other Christians, but then I have the love of Jesus in me, and do not spend my time criticising ‘Protestants’ or making generalisations which to others smack of prejudice. It is a line of Christian conduct I commend to you.
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Bravo!
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Oh, that’s right…Spaniard shouldn’t express his own opinion….he hates the idea of relying on what anyone else thinks, like the Church Fathers…everyone, ignore Spaniard! We shouldn’t listen to his reasoning!
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Good brother Chalcedon can beat his chest about how loving he is towards his separated brethren, but the religion he joined is the second most bigoted religion on earth. Less than two centuries ago it burned you to death if you weren’t a follower of its pope.
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As did the Protestant churches, as did lots of states back then. Your point is relevant to 200 years ago, but surely not even you think it is still 1800?
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It silenced the heretics who did not follow Christ’s Church but instead dragged souls into heresy.
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aYes, silence those who do not bow to the Lord Gog Pope. Its the church Christ founded. And we burn to death anyone who opposes us. We have the deposit of faith. And we will use a metal claw to tear off the breasts of females who are caught with a bible, if we don’t just tear their tongue out of their mouth. We are the true universal apostolic church that Christ founded.
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You know something friend, your comments just continue to show that you need to put your faith in Jesus Christ because you have no idea what’s coming out of your mouth.
Jesus Christ is the answer, unless you humble yourself and repent by putting your faith in Jesus you will have no hope.
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I’m glad that the RCC has been preaching that Jesus is the answer for roughly 2000 years.
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That’s a big fat lie, because if Jesus was the answer like John 14:6 beautifully declares you wouldn’t tell people to bow down to idols. You don’t worship Jesus but you do worship idols.
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Hmmm………I’m still having trouble recalling whenever the RCC has instructed its congregation to worship idols…
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Worship means bowing down in front of a statue or anything else and pray to that’s not God.
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I’m glad that I don’t pray to statues then.
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That’s a lie
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Oh, so now you are telling ME what I pray to. Wow. And you, sir, have purple hair.
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I have Catholic family and all 100% pray to Mary and saints. You are making it up.
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But I said I don’t pray to statues. I said nothing about asking Mary and other saints for their prayers.
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Okay, be honest. Have you ever prayed the rosary Patrick?
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Yes, of course, amigo. You are missing my point. I am not denying asking the saints for intercession, I am denying praying to a statue; a marble, wood, stone carving.
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The Bible condemns praying to physically dead people. We are only to ask for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are alive physically to pray in our behalf. Witchcraft practices that type of prayer.
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Besides bowing down befor the works of their hands, praying to the dead is the other half of what it means to be a cathol. Graven images and dead people. That’s the catholic way. But it doesn’t stop there. The dig up a cadaver and sit it on the porch of the Vatican so the dead can file by and worship it. How sick. You cathols are scaring me. Youre yucky. EEUUUUUWWWWww, stay away from me.
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I put my faith in Jesus probably long before you were born – some 50 years ago, and he has never let me down. Neither has he led me to disparage other Christians or to insult their faith. I pray you know that Jesus and remember the Beatitudes.
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I love you enough to tell you that you are not in the truth. I have not called you any names like you Catholics have called me.
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And I love you enough to tell you that I have known the Lord Jesus for more than 50 years, and He tells me I am where He wants me. I suggest you take it up with Him next you you talk. I took it up with him in one of my daily prayers, and He’s still there telling me to keep on truckin’ for Him. I do not tell you you are wrong to worship Him as you have found Him, and I’d appreciate you returning the favour my brother.
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You have been deceived for 50 years
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My Lord tells me otherwise – so I’ve asked Him to take it up with you when you talk with Him next. Pray on it, and remember that humility is a virtue. I do not tell you you are deceived, so I expect the same courtesy from you.
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Show me where in the Bible it says to pray to Mary and dead people since you said the Bible led you to Catholicism?
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This may help with praying to the great cloud of witnesses by whom we are surrounded. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-i-pray-to-dead-people-and-you-should-too/
My Bible tells me that all generations will call May blessed, and I call her blessed too – what do you call her? I do hope you follow the Bible here and are one of the many generations which call her blessed. When did you last call her ‘blessed’ and witness to your Biblical faith?
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Yes, I agree with you that Mary is bless, I will not deny what scripture proclaims about her. But, there is a but, no where does the Bible instruct us to pray to her or to dead people.
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Did you read the article? Which parts did you disagree with?
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Which article? sorry…I’m answering millions of question by myself…ask me again?
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This one:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-i-pray-to-dead-people-and-you-should-too/
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I don’t have time to read a whole article. sorry.
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Ah, like our friend Bosco, you wouldn’t want others people’s opinions and views to change your prejudices. Where did you imbibe these prejudices?
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I don’t have time to read that article with your millions of questions. Now do I? I will not change because I like to debate Mormons and Jehovah Witness and I read their material. So please I will not be deceived.
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Education is not deception
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Correct, education is not deceptive unless it tells you about a different gospel.
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Which it does not.
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Let me ask you a question? What education material are you referring to?
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Things like the short article you refused to believe. Have you read a single word of the early Church Fathers? Have you read any theology at all? Or are your opinions just that, your opinions? No problem if so, but it would be interesting to know where you got your weird ideas about Catholicism from.
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I don’t have to read dead people to find out the truth, I have the Word of God.
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So you say. Prove it. Nothing you tell me sounds in the least but like the Jesus I have known intimately for 50 years. It does sound like traditions of men too proud to read what other Christians before them have written. How odd to think you know Jesus and not to want to know what everyone who has known him has said. How did you get to be so lacking in humility and curiosity?
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Sorry to tell you but for 50 years you have been deceived. You have rejected God’s Word for your deceptive tradition, same thing Jesus told the Pharisees that their tradition was their problem.
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He was referring to the Pharisees, not the CHurch He founded. Do tell me, do you believe Jesus when he said he founded a Church against which the Gates of hell would not prevail? I believe him and am part of that Church. Do you believe him, or are you again, explaining he did not mean what he said?
You keep explaining away Jesus’s words. That ought to worry you.
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Sorry to bust your bubble, you are not in the body of Christ. You have rejected His Word in favor of a lie.
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Sorry to burst you man-made delusion, but Jesus founded a Church and I am part of it. You explain away his words in favour of a whole pack of lies. I know Jesus, and have done from before you were conceived.
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I know what you are a comedian because you sure know how to make me laugh.
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Which is the answer always offered by the ill-educated when they have no answer.
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No, everything that you are saying is ridiculous, how else can I take you. You have rejected God’s Word as the only authoritative Book. And you proof is what? non-existing.
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No, where did I say any such thing? I have not rejected the Bible, I accept it as I accept the tradition which tells me what books are in it. You accept that tradition too, as you have admitted that the Bible does not, by itself, tell you what is in it.
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If the Bible says don’t pray to dead people and your books say to pray to dead people who will you follow?
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Do you believe those in Heaven with God are dead? What an odd belief. We are told we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, and that those who believe in God will live forever. The saints are with God in heaven, they are the great cloud of witnesses.
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The Bible says don’t pray to physically dead people. You will not find one single verse in the NT saying to pray to a physical dead person
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Do you not believe Jesus when he says that the dead in him will be embodied? Do you actually believe Jesus’ words, or the version you have from a man-made tradition which keeps explaining them away.
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Show me one verse in the Bible where you can pray to the dead.
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Do, please, take time to read what I write. I told you that those who are saved are alive in Christ Jesus. The saints are saved and are alive in Him – THEY ARE NOT DEAD – capitals to help you out.
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Show me one single verse a believer praying to a dead person or the Bible saying it’s okay praying to dead people?
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I put it in capitals because you seems a little slow. The dead who believe are alive in Christ. I believe Jesus when he says this, you keep saying they are dead. Just believe Jesus – try it, it’s liberating.
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Give me the Book chapter and verse that states to pray to dead people
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Are you going to answer my question on John 6 or what?
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Just did.
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Where?
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Again, the Bible is not the entire Word of God. As I said earlier, I don’t think the Bible says I cannot ask my fellow Christians in Heaven to pray for me.
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WOW!….that says it ALL! I will save your statement for future reference. Thanks.
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Sigh….why can’t my own blog get this kind of publicity?…
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You are awesome Patrick, you keep giving awesome material, thanks…lol
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At least I have a fan here. lol.
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At least you will know that I won’t call you names.
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I don’t think I called any names….I just made the assumption that you have purple hair.
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No you called me a fool not direct but indirect which is fine. A heart is only changed through faith in Jesus alone.
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And I was accused of praying to statues. I guess all is fair now.
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It’s alright Patrick. We all need Jesus.
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I did just redo the layout of my site. Ho-hum.
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I guess you didn’t understand what I meant. Your comments keep proving me right. That’s what I meant.
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Good brother Chalcedon is drunk by now. he calls me deceived all the time. He calls me all manner of names. I let the Word of God strip bare his Mary worship and he and other marys hate it. they hate the light. Bible say they will hate the light, and its true, it hurts them and they lash out at whom is hurting them. But its not me, Its the Holy Ghost.
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The Light is Jesus – why do you think I hate him? I thought you’d agreed I don’t worship Mary
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And, not drunk, having supper with my youngest son on his 28th birthday 😊
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Tell him I say to have a happy birthday. 😉
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Thank you. What a foolish remark by Bosco. We all have lives outside the blogosphere, and as I am in the UK, there is a time difference – so I tend to be off-line when I am at work – oddly enough 🙂
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This is a question for Spaniardviii – do you notice and object to Bosco calling anyone a “homo” and saying they are drunk? I ask since you have objected to be called a fool.
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Good point.
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For someone so into reading Scripture, you don’t seem to like the idea of the Bible needing an interpreter, even if the Bible says that!
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Bible doesn’t say that. it says the elders help the younger. That is for the born again, not for the Sadducees and Pharisees.
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I believe all Christians should read the Bible and understand it but the Catholic Church tells you that you cannot understand it for yourselves and need them to tell you what’s it says. The Catholic Church is no different from the Mormon Church and Jehovah Witnesses who rely heavily on their leaders for interpretation.
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So anyone can read the Bible and understand it, without anyone else telling them what things mean?
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If they have the Holy Spirit.
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So you DO rely on men! You are as bad as those Roman Catholics that you have been condemning for the same thing. Shame on you.
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No, I rely on the Holy Spirit alone.
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Oh, sorry, I mixed up which comment you ere answering to.
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No problem
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I’m getting a full blown attack, but I love it.
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That’s kind of what I want by issuing this response. An attack on me, that is.
I know its off topic, but, may I ask, how old are you, Spaniard?
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Well, let’s say I’m not an old man or a teenager, I’m in between.
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And how would they obtain the Spirit?
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You receive the Holy Spirit by putting your faith and trust in Jesus death and resurrection. That He died for your sins on the cross and on the third day He rose from the grave.
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But how is a person to initially know this?
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Your life changes, you are different. You start to hate sin and receive a strong desire for the Bible to read it and share it.
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Spaniardviii, I was introduced to Lectio Divina from reading Catholic websites. Ever hear of it? It is an practice that involves no prescribed interpretation, it is a way of reading slowly and prayerfully and letting the Word speak to the reader. This is part of Catholic tradition.
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But Catholic tradition goes in a different direction from scripture. Look, it is very basic, Jesus is the only mediator between men and God. I mean, you can’t get any more simple than that truth. If anyone tells you that you can pray to someone else based on the scripture now, one would have to reject what the person is telling you. We must measure everything based on the scriptures but the Catholics have their tradition that contradict the scripture and that’s a major problem that they have.
I have not read “Lectino Divina”
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Have you ever prayed for someone, Spaniard?
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Yes, for a living person.
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Then didn’t you act as a mediator?
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Do I forgive sins? Of course not it is referring to salvation. Please, people, learn to read the context, it’s very important.
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Guys, not that this isn’t fun, but I think there are way to many different conversations going on in this post, some conversations that don’t relate to this post.
If you are interested, I have an article on the intercession of the saints:
https://whysoseriousdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/03/18/the-intercession-of-the-saints/
The Eucharist:
https://whysoseriousdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/01/19/the-reality-of-the-true-presence-of-the-eucharist/
And the Bible Canon:
https://whysoseriousdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/the-canon-of-the-bible/
Maybe we could shift to commenting on some of those?
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Here’s the Wikipedia page about Lectio Divina. See what you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectio_Divina
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No, I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that my authority is the Holy Spirit.
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These cathols authority is a pedophile on the run from authorities to evade prosecution for child rape. And they call me a heretic because I don’t follow suit.
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They try to make men not marry thinking that they can serve God better not knowing that they are burning with passion and since they don’t have the Holy Spirit they have sex with little kids.
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you still didn’t answer my question: who told you the bible was the sole repository of truth? Your previous reply did not give a simple answer to a simple question.
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The bible speaks Of Jesus. Its not a magic book. You cathols keep saying the bible isn’t enough because you have all those Babylonian rituals and symbols you want to claim are also gospel. There is one person you can ask…..ask Jesus in prayer to show you what is correct. Don’t you think he knows? Don’t trust mens words.
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We all know “the bible speaks of Jesus.”
Then you make an ad hominem attack when I didn’t attack you at all.
Then you say there is one person I can ask. You actually are saying that you can’t answer my original question as to “who told you the bible was the sole repository of truth?” Only Jesus can answer that question. Really. You can’t answer a simple question about your belief?
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Who told me the bible is gods only book to human kind?……..I told me that.
Anything eles yould like to know?
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Eat me Tony
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Good sister celia says I , Bosco, am a bad person because I call some body a homo. I call a homo a homo, which many catholic priests seem to be. Stop me when im wrong. That’s what catholics have for their priests , homos, whos conscience is seared with a hot iron. The call me separated brethren. They actually think im going to join that church of the homo priest? What is going to happen to them if the priest they rely on is going to hell?
Good sister Celia says im a bad person because I said good brother Chalcedon was drunk. I said that, not knowing if he actually was drunk, because he sounded drunk.
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Good morning spaniardviii, let me ask once again and perhaps phrase my question a little more clearly:
A) When Bosco refers to any human being as a “homo”, no matter what excuse he comes up with to do so, does that in your opinion reveal how dark his heart is, that he needs Jesus, that he needs to repent and put his trust in him? This is what you said to another commenter here who said something to you that you found personlly offensive, so I just wonder if you apply this same standard to Bosco or is he excused because he is saved?
B) Also, when Bosco suggests that another commenter here is drunk, no matter what his excuse to do so, is that OK in your opinion?
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Its A OK in my opinion. Sometimes there false religion people have to be seen to be believed. Lots of times they sound drunk out of their minds.
I usually don’t care much if someone is a homo. Ive got sins of my own. But I enjoy making fun of that raging homo Cardinal Newman. These catholics worship at his shrine. Well, have at it. The Lord is my Shepherd.
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That new spirit is addicted to lies. There is not the slightest evidence Newman was a homosexual, a practice that was illegal in Victorian England. A man much hated by his enemies, but not one of them laid that charge against him – and if it had been true he would have be jailed. But your lyin’ spirit doesn’t care for truth.
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Its also against catholic law to be a homo. But most of your priests are openly homo. they even rent hotels for big lavish homo parties. Since when did being illegal stop vice? Its illegal to rob banks.
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Indeed. But in Victorian England you could be arrested and imprisoned. Not one of Newman’s many enemies made this allegation – which if true, would have seen him jailed. So, why not? They hated him, they brought other trumped up charges against him, so why not this one? Answer: because there was no evidence at all.
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Yeah, all is well with the catholic costumed holymen. Yes, its unthinkable that a catholic priest would be a homosexual. How silly of me.
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No one said that Bosco. Are you aware of lying almost all the time? I shan’t engage with you if you just repeat lies. Either quote me saying it is unthinkable that a Catholic clergyman would be a homosexual, or apologise.
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Im sorry for calling the blessed Cardinal Newman a raging homo.
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Good morning Celia, I hope that you are having a wonderful day today.
If it’s true what Bosco is saying that some priests are homosexuals because they are having sex with innocent children, why would Bosco or anybody else be wrong? Now, we all know that it is true as a lot of priests have been arrested for that crime. It seems to me that you are more concerned about a priest than the innocent children that will be scared for life, that’s tragic.
Look, Catholicism is a false religion with some priests that shouldn’t be in that position at all in the first place but needs help with pedophilia.
We all have to choose which road to take. There are only two roads, one that leads to death and the other that leads to life. I based my decision solely on Scripture which Jesus said in 1 Peter that His Words will last forever. My understanding of the person of Jesus and the truth comes from the Bible. Everyone has to decide to either follow the God of the Bible or a god that contradicts the Bible.
You know what false religion have in common Celia? extra-Biblical resources that when compared with the Bible goes in the opposite direction. Anyone can make up false doctrine and call it God’s Word but you and I know very well that the holy scripture is God’s Word and should be used to detect false doctrine. If a teaching is not in the Bible it would be safe not to make it into a doctrine and even worse, if it contradicts the Bible it should be immediately rejected.
I do pray that we all compare everything with Scripture so that we may know the truth and the truth will set us free.
Bosco and I do care for everyone in here regardless if the debates got a little heated or not which is expected because we all have a passion for what we believe in. But we need to remember that passion without truth doesn’t make it right. Truth as to be first and the most important thing.
I don’t question the Catholics love for God just that it is misdirected because of the extra books that teach a different doctrine or gospel than that of the Bible.
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OK Spaniardviii, let’s go over this again. I see a little clarification is required. You do know that the word “homo” is used as a pejorative, right? On school grounds across the country, it is a well known insult and put-down to call another kid a “homo.” Its not a nice word and it is not used nicely. In fact it is rather mean. “Homo” is short for homosexual. It is not short for pedophile. Nowhere in my question is there even a hint that I sympathize with pedophiles. Look at my question honestly and please give me a straight answer without prevaricating or twisting my words.
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Wow, you guys like to make up your own definitions. I already gave you an answer, you just didn’t like it, Go ask Bosco. have a nice day
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Who is the one making things up? Did I define something incorrectly? Do tell. Did you misrepresent my question and accuse me of sympathizing with pedophiles more than their victims? Why yes you did.
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It is logical to conclude that when a priest molests a little boy, he just engaged in full blown homosexual acts, ergo “homo”. Homo is considered derogatory which is undeniably a shortened term for “homosexual” but that term pales in comparison with the actual abuse robbing a child from their innocence and scarring that child for life.
I don’t personally go around saying that to every homosexual I meet but my former employer who happened to be homosexual called me a “fag hag” at the time (before I came to know Christ). It’s funny how when people from the same circle don’t seem to call the “offensive” card when they call themselves names but should an Evangelical do it (shortened terminology), all hell happens to break loose.
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Caeli, my comment to Spaniardviii stems from the fact that he objected to being called a fool by a commenter here and his reaction was to object strongly, telling the person who used that word that it showed how dark his heart is, that he needed Jesus and needed to repent. The fact of the matter is that Bosco repeatedly uses lies, insults and innuendo to malign people as well as the Catholic faith in general. It is fine to argue against the teachings and practices of the Catholic church, that is not my point. My point is the use of sweeping insults against a whole group of people, ie Catholic priests, many of whom never hurt a child or acted inappropriately.
My question to spaniradviii had nothing to do with the evil of pedophilia, nor was it meant as a support of any homosexual or pedophilia activity. I was talking about the use of insults and what that use means about the person who uses them. I am also pointing out the hypocricy and double standard of objecting to some people’s use of insults here in this forum but not objecting to others who one happens to agree.
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the same circle don’t seem to call the “offensive” card when they call themselves names but should an Evangelical do it (shortened terminology), all hell happens to break loose.
That’s true. Inside the circle its kinda OK. But now that you have found the Lord, (which id like to talk to you more about that) we are to show them we love them, but not their actions. Jesus called the religious people(the holymen) vipers. Maybe that doesn’t sit well with good sister Celia either. Ceilia is all upset because I called someone a raging homo who has been dead 150 yrs.
The fact of the matter is that Bosco repeatedly uses lies, insults and innuendo to malign people
I hope that anyone would challenge me if they think I lied about something. A lie is something said that the sayer knows to be untrue. I never do that. I have no reason to make up stuff. That would ruin my cedibility forever. When it comes to religions, one doesn’t have to fabricate weird stuff. The truth is weirder than any fiction. Take, for example, the Mormons magic underwear. I could sit here for a million yrs and never come up with that. Even better….the catholic church calls(its) god Lucifer. I wouldn’t have believed that if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.
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@Celia you said, “I am also pointing out the hypocricy and double standard of objecting to some people’s use of insults here in this forum but not objecting to others who one happens to agree.”
While there are undoubtedly some priests who never sexually molested children, the term still holds truth to those who are guilty of it. Just because someone might not like being called something even though it is true does not negate its truth. It is sad that those who are indeed “innocent” are tossed into the mix but the problem lies on the entire Catholic Church whom for years have swept this problem under the rug.
It truly bothered me (when I was still a Catholic, I stopped attending in 2004) to think about how these same people who pose as your spiritual leaders (I’m specifically talking about those who have been proven guilty) and they have the gall to sit in the confessional while they carry on their own evil deeds and it doesn’t bother them at all to make people believe they are closer to God than your average church goer. This right here is true hypocrisy.
And for this, Jesus Christ’s statement stands true to the real hypocrites, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as fit for hell as you are!”
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Yes that would bother me too if I were Catholic, but I’m not. Why do you make assumptions about me? I happen to be fair and I listen to what the Catholics here have to say. You should try it, you might learn something and stop judging the man who sits in the confessional.
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@Celia Hmm, you were defending Catholics so I assumed you were one. I think you skipped my clarification that I was speaking specifically about those who were guilty. I was Catholic for over 21 years and your admission that you’re not only tells me of your ignorance of their false teachings that negate the supremacy of Jesus Christ.
Exposing their practices which go against Scripture might seem judgmental to you but should people claim to be Christian, it is only right that they heed to Christ’s teaching rather than extra biblical sources that negate the very teachings of the one whom they profess to be their savior. Your claim to fairness went out the window the moment you told me what you were, defending something you absolutely have no clue of. Where’s the objectivity in that?
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Actually I have been defending someone here who is Lutheran. I am not ignorant of Catholic teaching. Again you jump to conclusions that are false. Why so eager to judge?
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Also Caeli, the argument about extra-biblical sources is not persuasive. Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit has inspired many many people over the centuries to spread the Good News? I do. This can be done by speaking and by writing. I could say that this blog and yours (if you have one, I didn’t check) or spaniards or anyone else’s is extra-biblical and therefore can be ignored. That is foolishness in my opinion. Writing is a wonderful tool for sharing knowledge and experiences. Why would God’s spirit be limited to one book, it makes no sense to me. I respect many people who have been lead to faith and many of them I only know by their writings.
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@Celia – “Why would God’s spirit be limited to one book, it makes no sense to me.”
Matthew 7:13-14 can be applied to your concern. Just because it doesn’t make sense to you, it doesn’t validate your presupposition. Narrow means exactly that, not broad, not many writings that do not agree and actually contradict what God ensured to withstand for eternity, “the word of the Lord endures forever. And this is the word that was preached to you” in 1 Peter 1:25.
The only thing is, neither I nor Spaniard claim that our writings are authoritative and can therefore trump Scripture. We don’t have the audacity to do that. The Catechism is held as authoritative as Scripture. We blog to plead to people to go back to Scripture, abiding in its principles, not contradict it. Your extra biblical teachings are imposed into the tradition which by the way were already written within Scripture. The Catholics come up with another book and dub it as the tradition the Bible speaks of when the Bible is already COMPLETE from the beginning to the end.
Catholics say they respect people’s opinion and other religions but you must have forgotten their assertion that if one does not belong in the Catholic Church, they are as anathema, meaning, accursed and that includes people of other faiths who are not Catholic, Buddhists, Muslims, Shintos, etc. Again, a contradiction here. Claim to be nice and fair to other people but the church you defend holds doctrine that damns the very ones you claim to respect. Sigh.
My hope for you is that God would open your eyes and that you will decide to leave this false system.
Have a nice day. I truly mean this and this will be my last reply to you.
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I can’t leave a system that I have not joined. You are seeing ghosts. That would spook me too. Instead I cling to the Truth.
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I have said that was my last reply but it is rude to ignore someone when they are addressing you so here I am.
You say you cling to the Truth but truth cannot be tainted with falsehood. What you are doing is compromising absolute truth and my Lord did not do that when He addressed the Pharisees. You either take it or leave it.
I am for civil discussions but if you can’t come up with something that has substance, you don’t have to resort to implying I am delusional. Frankly, it doesn’t make sense to defend something you claim to not be a part of, but you may be unaware of the Pope’s ecumenical movement that is calling all protestant denominations to return to Catholicism and only those who compromise will fall into it. From the looks of it, you are one of them.
As an advice, please stop using the term “judging”. It is a sorry attempt to silence opposition especially when they are stating cold hard truth.
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Good sister Caeli, you sound as one who is born again. You left the catholic church, which is hard to do, seeing as how tight the web is that they wrap around its flock. the power of the Holy Ghost makes this possible, and easy.
can you tell me what happened to you? How you eventually met the Lord? Thanks in advance.
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I could say that this blog and yours (if you have one, I didn’t check) or spaniards or anyone else’s is extra-biblical and therefore can be ignored. That is foolishness in my opinion.—-says good sister Celia
Glad you mentioned sites. I happen to own and operate a grandiose site, with the grandiose name….Bite Me.
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
All are welcome. I don’t moderate. You can come as you are and feel at home. Sit back and kick yer shoes off and enjoy yourself.
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@Bosco My testimony is written in various posts but I will give you three of the main ones.
https://modconspiracy.wordpress.com/2016/06/16/awake-o-sleeper/
https://modconspiracy.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/musings-of-an-unapologetic-iconoclast/
https://modconspiracy.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/are-catholics-christians/
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Good sister Caeli, please don’t give up. Stay and add your wisdom to this blog. It needs it. I need it.
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Sarcasm is not the voice of Jesus or of truth.
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@Bosco, I replied to your inquiry about my testimony and since it had links to 3 of my blog posts, it is still awaiting moderation. Anyway, they are entitled awake o sleeper, musings of an unapologetic iconoclast and lastly, are catholics christians
Not giving up here but there are times that do call for walking away from something that you know will go absolutely nowhere as the best course of action.
Have a pleasant day and nice to meet you bro.
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Good sister Caeli, I don’t understand…what is awaiting moderation? My site shouldn’t moderate. If it does ill look into it. I don’t moderate. Im not scared of what people might say. If you have a site, id love to come join it and look around. Im sure its beautiful. My site is a joy to behold also.
Im so glad to meet you.
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Caeli said-“As an advice, please stop using the term “judging”. It is a sorry attempt to silence opposition especially when they are stating cold hard truth.”
That sure put Celia in her seat and it reveals that she is truly cloaked in deception because secretly she tries to steer people into a false church and at the same time proclaim not to be Catholic.
Celia is very shady, to say the least, and deceptive.
Caeli exposed it and rightly so.
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Spaniard, once again I must correct you. I am not secretly doing anything. My husband and I are among a group of Protestants who do not despise the Catholic church and our hearts are not hardened against it. Yes I come to its defense when people are being cruel, such as calling the entire priesthood a bunch of “homos”. This does not make me shady or deceptive. It makes me fair. All you have to do is spend a little time on this blog and read the posts, perhaps you will see the level of faith exhibited.
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@Bosco My comment to you on this thread with the direct links to my testimony is still held under moderation (by this site’s owner) which I would assume is a security feature some sites have enabled to put the comment in moderation when it has multiple links to another site.
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Oh, Ok. Good sister caeli, im computer illiterate. so I don’t know these things. Im sure good brother Chalcedon will put it up, when he sobers up. (;-D
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Okay, so its just something you came up with. Completely subjective. You worship yourself.
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But Bosco you admitted to making up all your beliefs: “Who told me the bible is gods only book to human kind?……..I told me that.”
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Youre starting to sound like a bot.
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Say, good sister Celia, me thinks you protest too much about the homo thing. Homo is short for homosexual. Is that so awful? Im beginning to think maybe you are a member of the GLBT community. Its OK to admit if you are. We accept you as you are.
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Utter rubbish. Once again, nice try.
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HHMMmmmm. You sould like a politician saying….I have done nothing wrong…..rite befor they resign by reason of overwhelming evidence.
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Good brother Spaniard, Chalcedon actually isn’t a liar. He believes honestly that he doesn’t worship Mary. Its obvious to you and me that cathols in fact worship Mary, but somehow they think they don’t. it beats me as to how they can say with a straight face that they don’t worship Mary. Well, that’s what one gets in a religion, especially a graven image religion.
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Bosco, you admitted that everything you believe in you just made up.
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Good brother Tony…..go back to sleep.
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Agreed but there is still no excuse period.
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There is an excuse for you and Bosco, which is that you are both blind to the spirit of lies which speaks through you both. There are many spirits in this world, and on the evidence you offer, you spirit is a lying one. I pray you are enlightened before the Judgement.
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Why thank you good brother. I am in desperate need of your prayers.
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I’m a liar because I want you to only worship the Lord, let me see where I get the lie from? Wait a minute, I get that from the Bible. So, I guess for chalcedon the Bible is a lie because it tells you to worship the Lord thy God and only worship Him and not Mary. I see now why chalcedon calls what I say a lie.
Compare the catechism with the Bible and you will see how detestable the catechism really is.
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No, you lie because you state falsehoods. I know Jesus; I do not worship Mary; nor do I pray to saints.
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Wow, why continue in your own deception, I just don’t get it. People deceive other people but you continue to deceive yourself. You say “I don’t pray to Mary and saints” Than you say,”I ask (pray) them to pray for me”….LOL you are funny, you don’t your front from your back.
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Prayers are directed to God. Different words for different activities.
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On a serious note, I,m trying let you see that only God can get glory.
Isaiah 42:8
I am Yahweh, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.
To give glory is to pray, bow to, and to exalt. All I’ve been trying to say to you is, to re-examine the teachings of the rcc with Bible because they contradict each other and only one is right. I want you to be honest and take a look again.
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That is you interpretation, one shared by Islam, but not by the two oldest Churches, the Catholic and the Orthodox. In context, the Israelites were faced with Pagans who blowed to gods, which is what the Commandment is referring to. Since no serious or informed person things Catholics worship statues, your point is misdirected.
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Then, you are past convincing. I do enjoy debating with you, what other topic would you like to talk about my friend.
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Your arguments are just not convincing; they depend on taking a narrow and non/contextual view. Always happy to discuss topics – anything you would like
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If my arguments to you, basically suck, even though I show you scripture than I will leave you alone, there’s no need for a lay person like myself to argue with a great theologian like yourself (sarcasm). Take care my friend.
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You offer me your personal interpretation, which is good of you, but hardly authoritative against nearly 2000 years of teaching by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches; that would require a great theologian. You take care too, and God be with you.
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Good brother Spaniard, I wish to thank you for coming here and being a strong witness.
let me commune with you for a minute.’ Like you said, You can lead a catholic to the bible, but you cant make him read it.
You are exhorting the unsaved to worship God only, but there is one big problem with that……They don’t know who the Lord is. How can they worship someone they don’t have a clue as to his where a bouts?
Its a sticky situation. How I handle it is thusly…..I tell them why their religion falls short of salvation, and then I tell them to open the door to Jesus and meet him and sup with him. Which is what you are doing also. But we cant expect them to switch from worshiping their gods of Babylon until they meet the God of Moses.
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Hey Bosco, I as well appreciate your faithfulness in the Lord.
We have to understand that believers are used by the Holy Spirit to get them in the Word because the Word of God alone through the Spirit of God will convict them of their errors. By telling them to read scripture is because scripture has power. All Christians who don not send someone to seek the Lord by reading the Bible and letting the Holy Spirit convict them is falling short.
You and I cannot convince them but by pushing them into the Word then their hearts can be pierced with the truth.
Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.
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That’s why I blew up at good sister Celia….because she quoted the catechism to me. That’s why I told her she hated the bible. Anyone who quotes the catechism as if its the truth must hate the bible. There is no middle ground.
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I’m going to tell you something right now, my passion is for the Lord through His Word. I love His Word and defend it to the end. For me chalcedon is a liar because he knows deep down inside that the Bible does not support what he believes but chooses to ignore it. He is lie to himself and everyone else.
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Well good brother Spaniard, I cant argue with that. The situation is even worster than that. believing and trusting in false gods will lead them to hell when they die. that’s not a pretty picture. Eternity in fire and suffering, knowing that they were warned and yet they rejected Him. Think about it. Eternity in suffering and smoke and brimstone where they gnaw their tongues for pain and their worm dieth not, for ever. I don’t like thinking about it. Just being without the Lord is what lands souls in hell, even if they were the church going old granny who did nothing wrong.
We have another fellow pilgrim added to us….her name…Caeli. Ive been praying for help in here for 5 long years. Ive ebdured the slings and arrows that you have only had for two or three days. Ive had them for five years, and I have not waverd, even though they have called for my head on a platter umpteen times.
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It took 5 years because the Lord was preparing me and Caeli to come to your aid for the glory of God the Father and Jesus Christ.
We stand back to back with swords drawn (God’s Word)
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I believe you. The Lord is great. Good things come to those who wait. Who shall stand befor the Lord on his great and Terrible day. Thank you Lord, for you have not revealed your word to the high and mighty, but to the humble and small. Thank you Jesus.
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Amen
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You have made a great many stupid statements in the last 5 years, but this gets a gold medal. You have no actual argument, you just ‘know’. Would that be the way you ‘know’ Jesus was just a man, and the way you ‘know’ that Jesus did not mean what he said about Peter being the rock? If you are reduced, like a little child, to saying ‘it is so because I know it’ then you are claiming far more infallibility than any Pope. You are in for a terrible shock when you die. I would be willing to dip my finger in water to slake your thirst, but I doubt the Lord will let me.
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Good brother Chalcedon, I just defended your honor by telling good brother Spaniard that you are not a liar. I don’t believe you to be a liar. You arehonest. But in passing, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Lord stands at everyones door and knock. Mary isn’t standing there knocking. Jesus who died for your sins is knocking.
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I am puzzled by the ‘argument’ which goes: ‘I am right because I say so’.
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That’s not an argument. I firmly believe it to be the only source of gods words.
The morning after I was born again, I grabbed the bible and it came alive. I didn’t even know why I grabbed the bible. If Christ wanted me to read the catechism, he would have led me to one. If he wanted me to fellowship with catholics, he would have led me to the local CC. He led me to others which the same thing had happened to them. I didn’t even know that I was born again. I didn’t even question why I was communing with the creator. I don’t know why I didn’t ask myself any of these questions. If Mormon or Jehova or 7th dayer or church of satan or CC was god body, He would have led me there. But he led me to other that met the Lord. A real mix of people, all walks of life, but one thing in common….we all met the Lord of heaven, the one in the burning bush. We too had met Hin, the same one Moses met. I have no need for phoney evil religions, or their books or holymen.
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So, I accept God took you where He wanted you; why can’t you accept the same in my case?
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Id love to welcome you as a fellow pilgrim good brother Chalcedon. You need to be born again. I cant say that I was out to be born again. Im not even a good example. You have to stand on Christs promise to give you a new spirit. You have to ask him to reveal himself to you. If you believe he can do it…ask him. If you believe what He said, put Him to the test.
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He has led me to where I am, Bosco. Your assumption that you alone here know Jesus is simply wrong. He reveals Himself to each of us as He judges best – I knew Jesus before you were born. He has led me all my life.
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Well my brother and good friend, I can assure you of this….god would never lead a person to a religion that uses graven images. God very well could have lead you there to meet me and get born again and then lead other fellow catholics to the Lord. That has been my guess for yrs now.
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Well my friend, God led me where I am. You are the least persuasive evangelist ever.
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How amusing…Stay offline for two days, and come back to this. 😉
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Indeed – I think it was a drive-by incident = he’s driven by, got nowhere, and driven off. I am always amazed at self-taught ‘evangelists’ who think we should take their word for something the Church has been thinking about for nearly 2000 years. It takes considerable ignorance to adopt that standpoint.
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Oh yes, but its quite simple to do if you are very ignorant. Just throw out 2000 years of Tradition, denounce Rome’s authority, and go by the Written Word Alone.
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If ever proof were needed of the reality of the damage done by original sin – these men really do consider themselves as wise as God because they think they have a hot-line to Him. Perhaps they are so obsessed with the literal truth of Adam & Eve they forget its spiritual message, which is when we fell, we did so because of our pride and wanting to be wise as God.
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sweeping insults against a whole group of people, ie Catholic priests, many of whom never hurt a child or acted inappropriately.
In American jurisprudence, one doesn’t have to plunge the knife into the victim to be guilty of the crime. One just has to be involved some kind of way, and that one is just as guilty.
Every catholic priest knows what is going on concerning child rape, drug running, money laundering, cover ups. Each and every priests knows the score. They are all guilty by association.
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You have no actual argument, you just ‘know’.
That’s what I told good brother Tony. I wasn’t going to get into a theological debate with him about why I believe the bible to be the ONLY source of gods words. he doesn’t deserve and answer. he was trying to tempt me into giving him more ammo to shoot down my belif in the Risen Lord and his power to give me a reliable book of His words. he has his costumed holymen and the endless canon law and lawyers. he should be happy with them. Even though if they dumped all the books of canon on his back, he would be crushed into a little red spot on the pavement.
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So let me guess, this is your way of showing Tony “the way of Christ” (your words).
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Good sister Celia, sometimes im not moved to explain things to someone. I can sense when something isn’t right. he didn’t deserve an honest answer.
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That’s what Jesus would have done no doubt about it.
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Good sister Celia, who are you? I took a liking to you earlier. That hasn’t changed.
Now concerning Jesus not giving an answer when he was being tempted, he wouldn’t answer them. You should know this, since you are a bible scholar.
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I never claimed to be a Bible scholar. I am an ordinary woman seeking the Lord, that is all. You cannot claim that you do not tempt others here with your comments. You are not in possession of special powers to see into the minds and hearts of people commenting here. Now you call me a bible scholar….sarcasm wasn’t a way Jesus spoke to anyone, ever.
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Well good sister Celia, lets start over. Hi, my name is Bosco the Heretic. how are you doing my fair sister? Im doing fine roasting in the hi desert of so calif. Nice to meet you.
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Nice to meet you too Bosco. Now behave yourself!
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Yes my good sister.
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Didn’t deserve an honest answer? So now we have lying Evangelists here. Good grief.
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Compare the catechism with the Bible and you will see how detestable the catechism really is.
Good brother Spaniard
I too read some of the catechism. I became enraged and inflamed at the desperate twisting of scripture. I have never seen a more insidious work of the Devil until I saw that. Little children read that, on the insistence of their elders. they make the child a twofold child of hell as themselves.There is a lake of fire that awaits them.The deserve it.
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Bosco, did you know that the Catachism teaches that you can become a god?
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Um, no, I didn’t know that. But I don’t believe that. You must be mistaken. But even worster than that is how it says something false, and ends the sentence with a scripture, in hopes the reader will think the sentence came from the bible. May they burn in hell and all who follow them. I haven t read much of the catechism. I wouldn’t put anything past Beelzeebub. Show me the passage about being gods. that would be beautiful if its true.
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“But I don’t believe that. You must be mistaken.”
I have no need to lie to you my brother how can I if the Spirit of God dwells in me. If I say something is because I have proof.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
ARTICLE 3
“HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY”
Paragraph 1. The Son of God Became Man
I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.”79 “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”81
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Well, that’s just par for the course. And you know what…these cathols are fond of calling what I believe man made false teaching. Seems they haven’t thumbed thru their own book of man made lies. Let me remind you good brother, that the Master said that most people are on the path to destruction. They will have a catechism under their are as they are dumped into the Lake of Fire.
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The Catechism clearly says and agrees with Mormonism that men can become gods. That’s what Satan told Eve in Genesis 3. That teaching is Satanic and comes from the fathers of lies.
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Yes, Satan did. Satan still works. religions still follow Satan. Satans pride and joy is the CC. Look at the second command. It says not to make or bow to images. But the CC says….yea, God hath said not to bow to them,….but, its Ok as long as…..blah blah blah.
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lol….well, Satan is very good in deceiving people.
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Good brother Chalcedon, if you took off the name Caeli and replaced it with Bosco the Heretic, you would think her comments were mine. The same for good brother Spaniard, except that good brother Spaniard is like how I used to be befor I was beaten down and stomped into the ground by religious zelots.
You always wondered how I could tell if someone were born again. Well, pay attention. You get a ringside seat.
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Pat and Spaniardviii,
The young Jewish maiden, the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, well, it’s difficult to see that she would like the title ‘Queen of Heaven,’ as she was brought up and instructed in the faith of Israel. It is unlikely and even dishonoring to His Mother that Jesus would allow this “appearance of evil.”
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Good sister, that doesn’t stop the Diana worshipers. They run up and down the street crying ” great is Diana”
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Oh yes, Maria, I remember you now. I invited you to come here. Wow, good to see you my good sister. Im afraid that this site and its religious people are beyond our help. There is this idolater named good brother Nicholas that is saying how God commands the Israelites to used images in their worship, even though he holds a bible in his hands. utterly amazing.
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It is very difficult for a skeptic and anti-Catholic to see this for sure.
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Pat, I don’t know how to respond except to stand by my comment, knowing that to speak of crowning Mary “Queen of Heaven” is going beyond what is written.
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I didn’t think that we were bound to believe only what is in the Bible.
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Right, I understand this. I want to believe what Scripture teaches. This is safe and true.
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As you have not read a word they have written, how can you know that? I follow Jesus, and the Fathers were his instrument for establishing Scripture.
Good brother Chalcedon says we should read everything these early catholic men have said.
I for one don’t want to waste my time. He loves the things of men and hates the things of God.
He wants Diana to save him.
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