One of the many tragedies of Christian history is that the Papacy, which ought to be a source of unity, has so often been a point of division; indeed, what often began as internal quarrels have, too often, turned into a source of schism.
I was asked recently why, if he was such an important figure, St Peter failed to inform us of his unique position? Good question, to which the answer is clear – it was all there in Matthew’s Gospel. In his own letters, Peter is content to appeal to Apostolic authority and eye-witness testimony. But it is important to understand that just like the doctrines and dogma we have been examining lately, the position of the Pope developed. We have been examining how the early Christians developed their understanding of the nature of Christ, and of the Trinity, so it should come as no surprise that the same was true when it came to the office of the Pope.
So, just as with the Trinity, the natures of Christ, and the Theotokos, so too with the purpose of the promise given to Peter; these things the Church worked out as it came to have need of them. We cannot know why Jesus did not just write everything down in a book, but he did not; he founded a Church. Justr as it was left to that Church to tell us what the Canon of Scripture was, so it was left to it to work out the implications of the Petrine promise in Matthew’s Gospel.
It has been, then, only as problems arose in certain areas that the Church has come to need to define things. That is as true of the Papacy as anything else. A ‘primacy of honour’ was always acknowledged, but working out what it meant in practice was not easy, as successive posts here tried to show.
It is clear that of the five ancient Patriarchal Sees, the three most important were Rome, Alexandria and Constantinople. It is interesting that the two cities where we know from Scripture that Peter lived, Jerusalem and Antioch, never mounted the sort of claims made by Rome, where tradition has it that Peter was martyred, and where his tomb can be seen. Alexandria, as befitted the See of St Mark (the interpreter of Peter) never questioned Rome’s primacy; that was reserved for Constantinople, whose claims were to be second to Rome, and were based entirely on its position as the imperial capital.
We have seen that Leo was basing his claims for the powers of his office on Peter’s position as the leader of the Apostles, and that that had nothing to do with Rome being an imperial city; the oft-touted notion that Roman Catholicism was ‘Roman State run religion’ (to quote Bosco) could not be wider of the mark; it had nothing to do with the Roman empire, and everything to do with trying to establish a position for the Church which made it as independent of State control as possible. For 1000 years after the death of St Leo the Great, Popes struggled to assert their independence from State control.
The greatest boost to the understanding of the development of the position of the Papacy came with the expansion of Islam: with Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria all under Muslim control by the end of the sixth century, only Rome and Constantinople were left; after 1453 there was only Rome. The need for some central authority to pronounce with authority on vexing matters of doctrine and dogma did not end with the fall of the other Patriarchal Sees, and Rome found itself in a situation where it was the last one standing. The question of whether Rome has always used its position wisely is an open one, and it would be hard to say the answer was yes. But that is quite separate from the developing understanding of the office, which held that in matters of faith and doctrine the Pope was protected from error.
The papacy is quite an interesting topic.
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I hope so 🙂
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Jesus spoke of little else than Peter being the first pope. Paul spoke of little else either.
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Ah, that’s your standard is it. Tell me, where does Jesus or where does Paul list the books of the New Testament? Where does either of them say that once you are ‘saved’ you will ‘always be saved’?
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The bible doesn’t have a Toyota transmission repair guide either.
Funny, Paul acknowledges every saint to travel to Rome, because they either visited him in prison or contacted him some way.
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OOpps, forgot to say that Paul didn’t mention his old pal Peter as ever coming to Rome. Im sure the cathols have some beautiful reason for that.
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You said ‘every saint’ – were you lying against? “Lying Bosco”.
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It is doubtful that Peter ever made it to Rome, in one piece. All of the saints who knew Paul, which is probably all of them, went to see him in prison, and Pual wrote about them…he mentions each one. Something as momentous as Peter, a disciple coming to Rome, surely PAul would mention it. But don’t let that stand in the way of a good fable. Its the least of the worries the unsaved have.
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On one side Bosco’s speculations, on the other side the historic witness of the Church Fathers; on the one side the father of lies, on the other side the men who gave us Scripture.
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When do you think Peter died? lets crunch some numbers. 33 AD…lets call this zero time. A good guess would be Peter was 30 yrs old at time zero.Life span of average male in Israel…maybe 55 to 70. Peter lived to be kinda old, according to a prophesy by Jesus. Lets give Peter 70 yrs. Peter lived to see the sacking of Jerusalem and must have died soon after.This puts us at 70 AD. 70 AD, there was no catholic church in Rome. If Peter ever made it to Rome, he would have been younger and healthy to make that road trip. That would have put Peters appearance in Rome around 50 AD. Where were your church fathers then?
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Poor old lyin’ Bosco. Tradition has it that like Paul he died in Nero’s persecution about 64 A.D. Were you actually educated, or is it that the truth is allergic to you?
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Show me the stone your tradition is written on.
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There are things called history books, Bosco, but as you don’t appear to do those, try this website:
http://stpetersbasilica.info/Necropolis/JW/TheBonesofStPeter-1.htm
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Which is why Rome became important- and are you now acknowledging Peter, one of the saints, was in Rome after all?
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What they do say is that if you are not baptised then you are mostly unsaved.
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Yeah sure thing good brother Eccles.
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One papal claim is that there is a continuity of Holy Fathers, a succession , they call it. Unbroken succession. Good brother Chalcedon, who fancies himself of a historian of some sorts, probably knows that there are several times when there was no Pope for a substantial time. He will either “say it aint so” or maybe doesn’t know this. But hes gonna have to make this pesky fact go away to keep the scam of catholicisn alive.
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The longest period of time in which the Holy See was vacant was 2 years 10 months, based on what I’ve been able to dig up with a quick search. It doesn’t really matter what length of time the Holy See has been vacant, but you did get my curiosity up a little. What exactly do you think that proves? Apostolic succession doesn’t mean there’s never a period of sede vacante, that’s just Catholicism 101.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sede_vacante
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2 yrs 10 months is almost 3 yrs. There have been a few more. 2 more that im pretty sure of. It throws out the claim of unbroken succession.Of course you can say that doesn’t mean anything. That’s the catholic way. Words have no value to the catholic apologist. For example…theres a saying going around catholic circles….it goes like this……”God commands us to make images’ . Ive been told this hundreds of times by image worshipers, and then I heard Patrick Madrid say it on his radio show. Once in a blue moon a catholic will stop and think….”.Hey all this stuff about the CC is starting to add up to something.” Then they open the bible, after wiping the dust off, and look thru it and pray for help.
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No, it means there is an unbroken succession. I know ‘Lyin’ Bosco’ has trouble with the Truth, but English is supposed to be your first language.
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There were no less than three popes at one time. They all excommunicated the other ones and their followers. that means all mary worshipers were excommunicated. Is this an example of unbroken succession?
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It is, as one of them turned out to be the real Pope. We don’t say that the British monarchy is not unbrokem succession because at one time there was more than one claimant to the Crown. It must be a great handicap knowing no history.
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Steven’s answer is the correct one. Only ‘Lyin’ Bosco’ thinks this is a problem. Unbroken succession does not mean that there is always a pope – there is always an interregnum until a new pope gets elected – it isn’t as though the Apostles immediately elected a successor to Judas. Oh, sorry, of course, you believe that Jesus’ promise that what the Apostles bound and loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in heaven, applied only for a few years, despite Jesus not saying that. That’s the ‘Lyin’ Bosco’ version 😊
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I understand there are three nice gaps in the Papacy. That’s not an unbroken succession, by any stretch. Does the bishops rising up and killing the pope count as unbroken succession?
I fully expected a cathol or two to come to the rescue and say everything is fine and dandy. Like, I believe it was good sister Lisa , that said the big fat Red Dragon up in the Vaticanus Hill wasn’t a dragon. Its a furry kitten, or something she called it.
You know, you guys should give some award or something, for coming up with the most coloruful and breathtaking denial of hard cold evidence of catholic paganism. She even out does good brother Chalcedons blanket denials. (;-D
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I don’t think English is your strong suite. Unbroken does mean there were not gaps between the death of a pope and the election of his successor. It happens every time.
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Ill tell you why there were gaps…..People just didn’t care. Folks were tryin to survive. Sometimes it happens when having a pope just doesn’t matter. No one cared.
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That is your considered verdict having read all the books … ha, ha, 😂
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