Tags
Immaculate Conception, Marian Devotion, Marian veneration, Mary (mother of Jesus), The Catholic Thinker
Originally published on The Catholic Thinker:
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus on December 8, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.” (1)
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul. (2)
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as formally defined by Pius IX, states that Mary was sinless her entire life from the beginning of her conception. This doctrine proves to be a “stumbling block” for many non-Catholics, as they counter with the statement that God alone is sinless.
If God alone were sinless, this means that either Mary could not have been sinless, or she would have been God, correct?
Well, it isn’t as simple as that. For instance, any “Christian” will have to admit that God is not the only being to have ever been sinless, when taking a look at Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were created by God, and for a time, before their Fall, were sinless creatures. They were sinless, and yet they were not God.
Angels presently in heaven are not God, and yet they are sinless creatures. They were created without sin, and have remained sinless ever since. A person cannot just simply say that God alone is sinless, when there have been and are other sinless creatures.
Catholic Apologist Patrick Madrid says of the Immaculate Conception:
“The Immaculate Conception emphasizes four truths: (1) Mary did need a savior; (2) her savior was Jesus Christ; (3) Mary’s salvation was accomplished by Jesus through his work on the Cross; and (4) Mary was saved from sin, but in a different and more glorious way than the rest of us are.” (3)
After hearing something like this, many non-Catholics ask, “Why would Mary need a Savior if she was sinless?”
The Immaculate Conception does not mean that Mary did not need Christ as her Savior. All men, after the Fall needed Christ as their Savior, including Mary, as she says in Luke 1:47.
Catholic Apologist Tim Staples explains:
“Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was “saved.” Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s “salvation” almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact:
” ‘Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever.’ (Jude 24-25)
“Six hundred years ago, the great Franciscan theologian Duns Scotus explained that falling into sin could be likened to a man approaching unaware a deep ditch. If he falls into the ditch, he needs someone to lower a rope and save him. But if someone were to warn him of the danger ahead, preventing the man from falling into the ditch at all, he would be saved from falling in the first place. Likewise, Mary was saved from sin by receiving the grace to be preserved from it. But she was still saved.” (4)
Pat Madrid goes on to add:
“Mary needed Jesus as her savior. His death on the Cross saved her, as it saves us, but its saving effects were applied to her (unlike to us) at the moment of her conception. (Keep in mind that the Crucifixion is an eternal event and that the appropriation of salvation through Christ’s death isn’t impeded by time or space.)” (5)
The usual counter argument made by non-Catholics is in reference to Romans 3:23 which says:
“For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.”
Is this a rule with absolutely no exceptions? Everyone has sinned? Well, no “Christian” would say that Christ sinned. He is a major exception. What of children below the age of reason, those who do not know what sin is? Have they voluntarily sinned? Have aborted babies sinned? Have the mentally retarded sinned, even though they cannot comprehend sin itself? There seems to be many exceptions to what Paul is saying. It is either there are exceptions or he was not speaking of literally the entire human race.
It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind, which would allow the exceptions listed above. If not that be the case, then perhaps he is referring to everyone being subject to Original Sin, which would still have a few exceptions. (6)
The only point here is that, with all obvious exceptions to “all have sinned”, one cannot conclusively say that it is impossible for Mary to be free of sin.
After dealing with a few arguments using logic, one must wonder what is the biblical basis for the Immaculate Conception. A Catholic Life blog elaborates:
“As we look at the Hail Mary we see part of the Archangel Gabriel’s address in the exclamation: “full of grace”. Grace is defined as a supernatural gift from God’s infinite goodness given by God to His sinful people for their eternal salvation. Mary is addressed as “full of grace” which shows that she must be in complete favor of God to have earned the fullness of God’s grace. This particular instance is a special one, in which God chose Mary to be conceived sinless to make her a house for God to dwell within.” (7)
In Luke 1:28, Gabriel greets Mary with “hail, full of grace”, the Greek being kecharitomene. If Mary is full of grace, then how can she be sinful? One cannot have Christ’s life of grace within them while being in the state of sin.
Catholic Answers, in its article Immaculate Conception and Assumption comment:
“The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.” (8)
The next piece of biblical evidence in found in Genesis.
“We see a crucial statement in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between you [Satan] and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he will crush your head, and you will strike at his heel.” This passage is especially significant in that it refers to the “seed of the woman,” a singular usage. The Bible, following normal biology, otherwise only refers to the seed of the man, the seed of the father, but never to the seed of the woman. Who is the woman mentioned here? The only possibility is Mary, the only woman to give birth to a child without the aid of a human father, a fact prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. If Mary were not completely sinless this prophesy becomes untenable. Why is that? The passage points to Mary’s Immaculate Conception because it mentions a complete enmity between the woman and Satan. Such an enmity would have been impossible if Mary were tainted by sin, original or actual (see 2 Corinthians 6:14). This line of thinking rules out Eve as the woman, since she clearly was under the influence of Satan in Genesis 3.” (9)
If Mary were not free of sin, why should the angel Gabriel call her “full of grace”? By being under sin, how could there be enmity between Mary and Satan? One cannot merely look over these verses.
The Immaculate Conception is reasonable from a logical stand point. If God was to be born as a man, why would he be born in a creature of sin? God’s eyes can’t stand evil (Habukkuk 1:13). How could he be created within a creature under Satan’s power? Does that even seem logical?
If you were to create your own mother, as God the Son did, would you not make her perfect? That’s what God did.
“O God, who by the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin didst prepare a worthy dwelling place for Thy Son…”
(Collect for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, December 8, 1962 Roman Missal)
(1) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
(2) Ibid.
(3) http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Madrid_ark_newcov.pdf
(4) https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
(5) http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Madrid_ark_newcov.pdf
(6) https://www.catholic.com/tract/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
(7) http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2005/10/immaculate-conception.html
(8) https://www.catholic.com/tract/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
(9) http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Madrid_ark_newcov.pdf
All Along the Watchtower 
Thanks so much for this really clear and helpful piece of writing. I was trying to get a deeper understanding of this issue only this morning, and then you post this! As someone who is not from a Roman Catholic background, and who attends an Anglican Church (where we have a beautiful statue of the Virgin Mary and do honour her and other saints), I really wanted to try to understand the theology. This has been very helpful, thank you.
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You are very welcome friend. God bless.
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“If God alone were sinless, this means that either Mary could not have been sinless, or she would have been God, correct?”
Well, would you lookee here…..looks like Mary resides between the cherubims above the Mercy seat on the Ark. The catholic church has finally come out and said it…….Mary is God. Ive been waiting for this.
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But you also think the Catholic Church has a snake head throne room to demonstrate the pope is a villain akin to Cobra Commander from GI Joe.
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I don’t think it. One can see it.
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Bosco, what are you trying to insinuate? You posted a photo, and gave no explanation for it. You could have photo-shopped it for all I know.
Your knack for not providing sufficient info during arguments is appalling.
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I did give explanation. But it explains itself. Of course you don’t see anything amiss.
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Thee RCC has never made Mary “God”.
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This particular one is in Detroit catholic church, if im not mistaken.
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Can you prove this??? Any references that we can look at?
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Kinda hard to believe , eh good brother Patrick? I wonder how you feel about the big fat red Dragon sitting at the Vaticanus Haunted House. It completes the picture drawn of the CC in the book ov Rev. Replete with gold and jewels and purple and scarlet on seven hills. Never the less, the Dragon sits up on the wall for all to see.
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I have no reason to believe that that statue is either in a catholic church, or that any true Catholics worship Mary as God. If Catholics did worship Mary as God, then they would not be Catholic – they would be pagans. Do you have anything to say about the actual article?
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Yes, I stated it in my first comment. You said one choice for Mary being sinless is that she is god. So I put up a pic if what is a Mary monsterance. Your Mary takes the place of the Almighty God of Abraham on top of the Ark.
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No, Bosco, you misunderstood. In the article, I was representing a Protestant mindset. If only God is sinless, then how can Mary be sinless? Using that logic, either Mary is sinful, or she is God. I was representing a Protestant argument. Sorry that was unclear. I was by no means asserting that Mary is God.
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The photo depicts Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant – she held the Word of God within her womb which is represented by the large medallion depicting the Infant Jesus over her heart. I have yet to see where the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is God and I would challenge Bosco to come up with one reputable reference to such a teaching.
Here is the link with a explanation of the image: http://www.sspeterandpaulcatholic.com/2013/05/elizabeth-visit-mary-ark-of-covenant.html
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Ah, thank you for offering a reasonable explanation. The statue makes sense now. Of course.
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Good brother Patrick, you were perplexed at first, u ntil a good catholic explained it away.
Its got this Mary (female) sitting where god sat on the Ark. That’s the friken bottom line. You cant make that little fact go away.
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Bosco, the statue is not depicting Mary to be God, but that she is the NEW ark of the covenant, a woman who carried a far better treasure than the old Ark.
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Marys womb is the ark of the covenant. A piece of bloody flesh is the ark of the covenant. You cathols are just plain sick.
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How is that sick? God didn’t believe that it was too “sick” to become man inside.
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Flesh. If this is your ark of the covenant, have at it. You know what, I can die satisfied now. Ive heard everything now.
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This woman, Mary, a being composed of spirit and flesh, gave birth to the God man. All generations shall call her blessed. That includes her “flesh”.
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Her flesh is blessed. Tell me something good brother…..is this catholic dogma, that her flesh is blessed? Or are you embellishing?
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It is in the Bible, my friend. All generations shall call her blessed.
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good brother Patrick, im going to demand an apology from you saying I photoshoped. Seems I know more about your religion than you do.
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Bosco, I said that for all I know you could have photo-shopped it. I did not say you did. Should I demand an apology for you not providing sufficient explanation of the photo? Let’s not get petty here.
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Good brother Patrick, did you check out the link good sister Celia put up? it confirmed that the piece of catholic idolatry is in Chicago. Your first reaction was disbelief.
Thank you good sister for confirming my picture. Now good brother Patrick can eat his words.
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I was at disbelief because you made it seem as though this statue was an idol depicting Mary as God. But as Celia shed some light on it, it appears to be a statue with the purpose of saying that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant, not that she is God.
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The image still has mary sitting in Gods seat. Shed all the light you want. Your first reaction was the correct one. You believed what your own eyes saw. You couldn’t believe it was real. Go with your gut instinct. Yes, that graven image is the very height of blasphemy. Ive seen some dusies come out of the CC, but this convincing.
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I believed what you spoke of, that it was an idol making Mary God. But there is no truth to this. Are their people worshipping the statue? I think not.
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Oh no…not a mini Chalcedon.
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I shall take that as a compliment. Thanks.
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Yes, I understood that. Any protestant that gives it a second thought, which most don’t, would realize that ALL men have sinned, and just chalk it up to more catholic blasphemy.
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Ok. But I was by no means saying that Mary is God. That is not the message of this article, and it is not the message of any Catholic teaching.
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I strongly disagree. The CC assigns ALL the attributes of God to this female they call Mary.
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How so?
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Please tell me youre not serious.
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I’m sorry, but you must represent and prove your points when in discussion with me. Without listing your thoughts, there is room for misunderstandings.
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I have to remind you that CC dogma says Mary is all powerful on earth and heaven and does battle with the devil and dispenses ALL grace, etc etc, on and on co redemtris and so forth.
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What dogma says that Mary is all powerful on heaven and earth? Is this formally taught? Bosco, any Christian does battle with the devil, when he follows God’s path and resists temptation.
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Good brother, im not even going to do this with you. Where have you been….in confinement ?
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Well good brother , I decided to oblige you. To every man an answer. But that is supposed to mean an accounting for the faith that is in us, the saved. It doesn’t mean digging up dirt on religions, per se. But I feel that this will be helpful.
She is the perfect Image of the Church
She is the City of God
She is Queen of heaven and Queen of Angels
http://www.marypages.com/catholics_and_mary.
At the command of Mary all obey, even God
and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son
God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm
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When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.
is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary, whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm
Good brother chalcedon admitted that he believes every word of this.
Mary is the general of Gods armies…..a..a…ah..uh..uh…ahh.ahhhh.ahhhh…AAAHHHHHAHAHAHAHA
And good brother Patrick, you have to believe this or you are excommunitado immiediato finis.
Mary has all power in heaven. Arent you guys lucky you carry her graven images down the street on your shoulders? She must love that.
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As usual, Bosco, you take some writing which you have never read and, as you always do, pretend it is the official position of the Catholic Church. The official doctrine and dogma of the Church is set out very clearly in the Catechism, which, of course, none of the websites where you get your cut and paste jobs ever quote. So, as usual, you lie when you say if we do not believe that Mary has all power in heaven, we are excommunicated. It is like shooting fish in a barrel, dealing with you. This is the official Catholic position which we do have to believe:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”511
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”512
970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”513 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”514
* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517
See, not a mention of Mary controlling Heaven or armies. Poor old lyin’ Bosco, busted again. When will you get it into your lyin’ skull that there is an official Catholic position and that that, and that alone, is what we have to believe. So please, Bosco, now you have been told this, spare us the lies.
Your spirit, that new one, seems addicted to lies. What sort of ‘new spirit’ would fill someone with a love of lies? Get exorcised Bosco.
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Once, not real long ago, I posted a list of all or maybe most, of what Mary is and can do. One was all power in heaven. And you said you agreed with the list. I remember this.
So how many times have they upgraded this catechism? And what,, you guys now disown Ligori?
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I agreed with the list? What list? I am unaware of such…
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Sorry ol chum….that was meant for good brother Chalcedon.
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Oh, ok. I see that you were replying to him and not me. Gotcha. 😉
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Fabulous!
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Thank you.
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Agree!
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The most succinct explanation I have seen (I am not Catholic so still new to these things but have been reading other material for several months now). I have always been uneasy with the thought of Mary being just an ordinary gal who carried holy God in her womb, and then afterwards went on to an ordinary life as a wife and mother. It just didn’t make sense to me and wondered quite a bit about it. Your article covers a lot of material in a very clear manner, and yes I agree that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception makes logical sense when all the pieces are put together as clearly as you do here. I especially like this closing thought:
“The Immaculate Conception is reasonable from a logical stand point. If God was to be born as a man, why would he be born in a creature of sin? God’s eyes can’t stand evil (Habukkuk 1:13). How could he be created within a creature under Satan’s power? Does that even seem logical?”
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In that case Marys mother had to be sinless.
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Bosco, do you believe in miracles? If so, name some of God’s miracles.
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No I don’t think so. Mary’s sinlessness is the will of God. He created her according to his will. Her mother was not her creator. God prepared Mary to be the mother of Jesus by making her sinless and holy, which makes sense since Jesus is the spotless lamb. Mary’s sinlessness falls into the realm of miracles, just as the virgin birth of Jesus was a miracle.
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Dianas sinlessness falls into the blasphemy of idolatry, and you modern day Nimrod worshipers fall into line with the first world wide religion. as predicted by scripture.
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Good brother Chalcedon always tells me to back up what I say with scripture. Maybe I should return the favor by asking to back up Marys sinlessness with scripture. But I wont challenge anyone to do that. Why? Because its not there and im not going to waste time on tit for tat.
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Perhaps you should look at the article’s scripture references.
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Ok, I re read the article. The few bible verses you put up don’t lead to Mary being sinless. gen 3;15, which is an end time prophesy, the seed of the woman has to be Jesus, but the woman is the church. Next, you put up a bunch of catholic writings. As if they are gospel.
Jesus always said….”Ye shall know them by what they say about themselves”
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The Church did not give birth to Jesus. Your interpretation is messed up.
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The bible explains the bible. The woman in Rev, who gave birth to the Ruler, fled into the wilderness. She was raptured. The woman comes back after the smoke cleared and became the bride of Christ.
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No book can fully interpret itself, Bosco. The Bible points to the Church as the interpreter. The Church is the pillar of truth.
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No, that is precisely what it does not do – as you prove. You think the Father and the Son are the same. That is not what the vast majority of people who read the Bible conclude – so whether they are wrong or whether you are, it proves it is rot to say the book interprets itself.
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Good point.
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“The Church is the pillar of truth.”
Don’t even get me started.
Yes, most books don’t explain themselves. But my bible was written by the hand of god. It has anything I need to know, and HS does the rest.
The bible is considered a “dead letter” by the catholic church.
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Yeah, ok. Dead letter? Is that why the RCC put the Bible together for everyone?
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I give the Almighty God of Abraham the credit for getting a book of his words in my hands.
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But whom did God inspire to put the Bible together as we know it today? The RCC.
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Uh, good brother Patrick, may I ask you a question? Is all this stuff im talking about really news to you? You know, like this “dead letter: thing? Thanks in advance.
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Do you not realize how the Bible, how the Old and New Testament came together as one book? The RCC.
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Remind me to thank the catholic church….will you?
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Who cares how it came together. And if youll be so kind as to spare me a lecture.
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Who cares how it all came together? If you hate the religion of the RCC, you should be cautious about using a book it put together. Especially a New Testament canon that the RCC put together.
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Why? Are you saying God could not make Mary sinless at the moment of her conception? Ah, sorry, I forgot your godlet is not all powerful.
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Why would Mary’s mother had to have been sinless? Mary was sinless because she was to carry God Himself. Just because Mary was sinless does not mean her Mother had to be.
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Marys mother had to be sinless to keep Mary from being in a sinful womb. And so on ad infinitum. I mean, it only stands to reason.
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No it doesn’t. As men inherit Original Sin from Adam, all God did was prevent Mary from contracting sin. This had nothing to do with Mary’s mother.
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Hmmmmm. I wonder why either jesus or at least one of the NT writers didn’t mention it. The worlds first sinless person. Should have made the evening news.
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Perhaps because the Gospels and Epistles were written to deal with certain teachings pertaining to the churches (the epistles), and the Gospels were focused on the life of Christ.
Bosco, the Bible nowhere claims sufficiency as the sole teacher of the Christian faith. Neither does it claim to include every occurrence in Christ’s life.
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The scriptures are way good enough. But scriptures mean nothing if one reads them and dies and wakes up in hell. The scriptures speak exclusively about Jesus. It has enough about Jesus life to satisfy any saint. One needs to be born again to have life. One cant be taught how to be saved. Ye must be born again.All you have to do is ask.
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Thank you Celia. I try to make my articles understandable especially to the non-Catholic. Thanks for your feedback. God bless.
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No doubt god could have made Mary sinless. God can do anything.
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So why tell the lie that for Mary to be sinless her mother must have been? It isn’t as though this is the first time you have been told that. If it was, I’d put it down to an mistake, but when you keep not remembering what you’ve been told, I begin to wonder about that lying spirit in you.
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Am I demon filled because I don’t believe what im told?
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Could be a bad memory, but that doesn’t explain the addiction to lies.
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Wow, very informative. I never made the connection that Genesis 3:15 referred to the seed of the woman, implying the lack of a human father. Very interesting.
If I might add, as I am sure most of you already know, Mary’s Assumption was a byproduct of her Immaculate Conception. As I understand it, her Assumption is the logical conclusion of her being sinless. That being said, anyone who has been to the Holy Land (I, sadly, am not one) will see how important it was to the early Christians to preserve and venerate the bodies of the early Christian leaders. Yet with such an emphasis on the the bodies of the saints, there are no tombs or altars that house Mary’s body. Surely the early Christians would have placed great emphasis on the body of Jesus’ own mother. Yet, among the bodies of so many early Christians, hers is missing. This implies what Christians have held for centuries: Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven.
Sorry for the preachyness. I get easily excited about this stuff. Well done, Patrick.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts my friend. Yes, Mary’s sinless-ness was phophesied about even at the beginning of the earth. Just goes to show you how high God holds Mary. Thanks for your comment.
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Surely the early Christians would have placed great emphasis on the body of Jesus’ own mother.
Well, now you know they didn’t. Mary is not associated with any part of Jesus ministry, except for one time when she called him and he refused to come out and see her.
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This implies what Christians have held for centuries: Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven.
To imply is not a hard cold fact written in stone. Too bad that the scriptures do not confirm any shred of this Maryology.
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But its great that as true Christians, we know that not everything is in the Bible.
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True Christians aren’t satisfied with the bible? “We”?
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Not when the Bible points to an authoritative Church as its interpreter, and stands side by side with Sacred Tradition as the Word of God.
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Ah yes, the good ol catholic church. It only has the real meaning of the scriptures…and you can get a copy…..if the price is right.
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You can, of course, back that up? All you have to do is to show us all where the Catholic Church says it chrages people for the real meaning of the scriptures. A failure to do that will take your lies this week into double figures. At the end of each month there will be a ‘Lyin’ Bosco’s lyin’ lies’ list.
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It was either you or good brother Servus, who told me the name of the book with all that the magisterium has come up with…..the real meanings of scripture. I looked it up and it costs …uh, I forgot. Something like 20 or so dollars. Maybe more. Ill just have to remain ignorant.
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Excellent. When looking at St Paul writing that ‘all have sinned’ in addition to what you have said I also think what, in context, he was saying is that both Jews and Greeks have sinned. That i,s whether we are under the Law or not we are going to sin unless the Spirit is in us.
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Thanks! That is a great explanation as well!
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good sister celia says……” I have yet to see where the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is God and I would challenge Bosco to come up with one reputable reference to such a teaching. ”
Like you cathols always tell me, images also taught the people about god, not just written language. The above pic with Mary residing between the cherubs on the mercy seat is an around the way of saying Mary is a part of the trinity, or is God himself. You cant wiggle your way out of this. Only the Almighty god is to reside there. Oh, im sure the denials will flow like water.
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If, in fact, the artist intended the statue to say that Mary is God, take your argument up with the artist. A sculpture does not proclaim any actual Catholic doctrine.
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Ah yes, that’s true. You see my friend, this is why god would rather us not make images for use in relating to him and the plan of salvation. He is rather strong on this point, that we not make them. Why? because an image is misleading. The viewer of this image will, in the back of his mind, attach more importance to Mary, the simple handmaid. Here she is in gods chair on the ark. It bothered you at first. But along comes the evil one and talks you out of believing what you are seeing. Theres no end to the signs the CC has to show its true allegiance. It is the religion of good brother Nimrod, beginning in Babylon. the first world wide religion. That’s why one sees mother child graven images in most parts of the world. Semiramis worship. It spread to the four corners of the world when god dispersed the people during construction of the Tower. Now, the CC is chalk full of all of Babylonian pagan religion symbols and rituals. Even the CCs holymen wear fish hats, for heavens sake. Could one get anymore clearer than that>
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Bosco, could you kindly explain the basis for this odd belief? The religion of Babylon died out hundreds of years before Christ, so on what basis did it come to life again later. Some actual evidence, you know, that stuff your lyin’ spirit never has, would be useful. Or are you going to do your usual weasel trick of saying it’s obvious? Idiotic ideas are obvious only to idiots; lies attractive only to liars – so by definition, only idiotic liars will fall for this nonsense. Of course, if you have some actual evidence, feel free to do something you have not done in five years – that is share it.
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All the people of the world at that time were at Babylon and they worshiped Nimrods gods. When god confounded them and the all went their ways, they took the Babylonian pagan gods with them. I cant quote you a news article about this. So either you run with it of not, those little facts should be obvious, if one thinks about it.
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The Roman Catholic Church does not derive from pagan Babylon. Anyone who has read very little of history is smart enough to recognize that.
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Is that so?
Opps, never mind the pinecone staff of Bacchus that the pope now waves around.
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Bosco, do you believe in miracles? If so, name some of God’s miracles.
A lost soul on his way to heaven becomes born again and is a new creature in Christ and does a 180 turn around with his life. that is a miracle my friend. And it happens in an instant.
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should read… a lost soul on his way to HELL
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Yes, your lyin’ spirit gave itself away there, it wrote what it really meant – it prompts you to intercept souls on their way to heaven and send them to hell with your man-made lies. You believe the Father is the Son, which is a lie of the devil; you insult the mother of Jesus, the work of the devil; and you lie about things where the proof is easily ascertainable. By their fruits shall ye know them – of what spirit are such things the fruit, Bosco?
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Sheesh, what a grouch!
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