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One of the first disadvantages of ignoring Christian history and of reading the Bible through the inspiration of whatever spirit one thinks inspires one, is it leads to repeating old mistaken readings of who God is. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. We, as Christians, believe in one God. This belief we inherit from the Jews – our older brothers in the Faith. But the first Christians, who were, for the most part Jews, and who prayed in the Synagogues, were thrown out of them because, to their fellow Jews, it looked as though they were polytheists. They baptised people in the ‘Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’, and in confessing their founded, Jesus, as the Messiah, gave him equality with God. It was little wonder that many Jews thought such a statement blasphemous. Islam takes much the same position.
Our friend Bosco, who, as ever, does proxy for a whole range of beliefs along the spectrum of individual interpretation, is convinced that Jesus is the Father. As he put it in one comment:
Ive said it millions of time here that Christ is the Father. i use the names interchangeably.
Bosco finds my reiteration of orthodox Christian belief a problem, and cannot quite believe me when I say He is not identical with the Father:
Do you still think Jesus isnt the Father?
I get it..you were pulling my leg. I guess i deserve it.
Bosco is convinced that Jesus is the Father, that they are one and the same. He is willing to admit: ‘True, one can say they are separate but the same. One is still saying that Jesus is the Father.’ He adds, with the pride of the ‘saved’: ‘I had no idea that the pharisees in here didnt think Jesus is the Father. It proves my point that they are blind to scripture.’ Perhaps, or perhaps it proves the point I am seeking to establish here, that it leads the unwary to repeat some of the earliest misreadings of Christian teaching?
The question of who Jesus is lies at the centre of our relationship with Him; if we think He is other than He is, then we have a relationship not with Him, but with someone we have constructed from our reading of the Bible.
We need to remember that long before there was a written text, the Church founded by Jesus spread His word, and we know that long before there was any Canon, Christians had puzzled over how Jesus could be God and yet pray to God; how he could pray to the Father if the Father was God and He was God; and just what the relationship between Father and Son was. One answer was the one Bosco prefers, which is that Jesus is the Father, and when He prays to the Father or asks Him for help, He is really showing us how to pray, not doing something real. To the question of who was governing the Universe during the Incarnation, if Jesus is the Father, there has never been an answer, except that it is all a miracle. But what then of the idea that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father? At this point, Bosco has to abandon his usual literalist reading, as it makes no sense.
But he has no such need, because Christians have been there long before him. So, John 10:14:
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jesus often emphasises that He speaks for the Father, and the Father speaks through Him, and that the one who has seen Him has seen the Father; but not once, not anywhere, does He say He is the Father. So we have the irony that Bosco, the most literalist reader, tells us something Jesus never said. As so often, Bosco is reading into the Bible something that is not there in order to justify a reading he claims is literalist, but is nothing of the sort. So, if Jesus saying He and the Father are ‘one’ is not the same as Jesus saying ‘I am the Father’, what does it mean? It was precisely that problem Christians wrestled with from the beginning. Bosco, like too many modern Christians, especially those claiming to have been given a new spirit, neglects these lessons, and in so doing, repeats mistakes. How did the early Church deal with this issue?
All Along the Watchtower 
Bosco believes that Jesus and the Father are literally the same person? So the Father died on Calvary according to Bosco? Yeeeeeeeesssssssshhhh……………(face-palm)
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The trinity is three and those three are one.
Isaiah cp 40 and on…..God says in no uncertain terms….there is no one else, he is god and there is none else. He alone is the salvation of the people.
You’ve got more to worry about if you die thinking a queen of heaven is going to save you.
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I’m glad I don’t think the Queen of Heaven will save me.
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Is that rite? Im gonna tell the Pope you said that.
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The Catholic Church has never taught that salvation is in Mary. It has always been through Christ.
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Good brother Patrick, I want to commend you on your site. It has attracted some very good Christians.
Oh Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
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Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.
St. Ephrem
God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.
St. Thomas Aquinas
No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.
St. Bonaventure
Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.
St. Bernard
All gifts, virtues, and graces of the Holy Ghost are administered by the hands of Mary to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, and in the manner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.
St. Bernardine of Siena
The Catholic Church has never taught that salvation is in Mary
Patrick E Devens
I never get tired of this.Catholics do one thing and say another, and then they say one thing and do another. Most catholic people are sincere good people….but they aren’t aware of the danger their religion has put them in.
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It is hard for the rest of us, because, Bosco, you seem truly stupid. All they mean is that Mary brought the Saviour into the world. Ah, but sine you think God raped her …
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All they say is Mary brought Jesus into the world.
Come on man, you can read just like I can. How did I know the excuses would start flying?
Graces are given to whom mary desires.
That’s pretty plain. the bible is all about Mary. Uh, can you help point out how this relates to Mary giving birth? hahahahah. Never mind, I don’t even care to hear it. Im just pointing out the blasphemies that flow so easily and regularly out of the mouth of that big red Dragon sitting up on the wall inside the Vatican Hill.
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It is sad you can’t read properly. Christ came via Mary, all Graces come via Christ, therefore they come via Mary – logic 101.
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All the Elect obtain eternal salvation through the means of Mary.
St. Ildephonsus
say good brother Patrick, listen and learn, or , read and learn. Next time, don’t be so quick to disagree with me. Everything I say can be backed up. That’s why im hated and feared so much. I bring up the things they would rather keep quiet.
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Indeed they do – she gave birth to Christ. You are so prejudiced that you can’t read straight.
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If I got to medical school and become a doctor, can my mother practice medicine because she brought me into this world, but she never went to med school?
You better snap out of this my brother. Mary gave birth to Jesus and turned him loose. Jesus gives all grace and is the only mediator. Don’t let some fanciful tales rob you of the saving grace only given by Christ. One day you will know. better now than later.
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You are not Jesus. An angel did not tell your mother her name would be blessed for ever.
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For this reason, all creatures are obligated to render her respect and homage as to their Queen and Sovereign to whom they belong and upon whom they depend, and will depend, for all eternity.
St. John Eudes
You still depend on Semiramis….ooops, I meant Mary. You depend on her now and forever. You need her. Not just way back when…but for all eternity. Mary is the fourth person of the trinity. Oh thank you Mary.
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You missed out the reason, in the previous sentence – that she gave birth to the Saviour. A monkey with a keyboard would do better than you.
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Jesus wouldn’t even come out of the house to see Mary and his bros and sis. Some big fat queen of heaven. You think im bad because I don’t bow befor her crying graven images. Jesus wouldn’t even come when called by her.
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And yet on the Cross in his agony the final human he addressed was his mother. Give it up Bosco, you are wrong, and whenever you reach this stage, that is having used your cut and paste bits, you wander off topic; so predictable and boring of you.
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One fateful day , Jesus said to her…..woman, im hitting the road now….nice knowin ya…then left. And never saw her till the crucifixion. She had nothing to do with his ministry. Other women attended to his needs. And you idolaters hold up this humble handmaid and bow befor graven images of(supposedly) her and pray to it and hold it on your shoulders and carry it down the street, because she cant walk, having leg, and cant talk, having a mouth, and cant see , having eyes. Mary just gave Jesus his physical body……the holy ghost gave Jesus his spirit. But you never give god these kind of accolades and bow befor God statues and adore them.
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And you never give up insulting the mother of the Saviour.
The pattern continues. You are caught out in heresy. You lie about Catholic belifs. You cut and paste quotations from books you have never read and don’t understand. When you are corrected, you insult the mother of Jesus.
Surely even you must be bored? Even the young guy you brought here thinks you are wrong.
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Well, yes, that’s why I cut and paste so people cant accuse me of lying. So what if I never read all thoses book. Those are quotes from those catholic teachers and doctors. Seems like you aren’t happy with them. You can ask Jesus one day or nite about it. Ask Him what is true. Don’t take my word for anything. Always ask.
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You don’t get it. You take quotations which are used by anti-Catholics without realising they are taken to support prejudice rather than illuminate an argument. You must be a sucker for fake news.
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I suppose all the news about pervert priests is fake news. Theres news now about some priests or bishops being perverts but I don’t post it because im trying not to be boring.
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Again, absent an argument you create a straw man. As you well know, I have never denied that there are Catholics who are sex offenders, just as there are everywhere in society. Your attempt to smear everyone for the crimes of a minority is unworthy of someone who claims to have a personal knowledge of Jesus. Does Jesus endorse your tactics?
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It’s not literalism so much as inconsistent literalism. One of the reasons surely for the Trinitarian controversies unfolding in the way that they did was that Greek trained minds, thoroughly grounded in logic, tried to develop a doctrine that would explain *all* the texts. Not ignoring or shying away from apparent inconsistencies but solidly working through them.
We cannot each be our own Pope precisely because Scripture does not explain itself and it requires a high degree of well trained intelligence to comprehend it’s deep meanings. The simple message of salvation is accessible to all but working it into a solid body of doctrine which is coherent and universally applicable at all times and under all circumstances is a major undertaking for which purpose we need a body with many members working together in Union.
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Very true – not, alas, that Bosco, being ‘saved’ thinks he needs to concern himself with it.
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Despite the many arguments, there is something I admire about Bosco, namely the sincerity of his faith. I do worry sometimes that as an intellectual I become what James called a “hearer rather than a doer of the word/faith”. Currently I am wondering how to reach one of my co-workers. He knows I am a Christian, but I would like to find a way to share my faith more deeply with him. I don’t admire Bosco’s style, but I admire his boldness, his fire. I was like that when I first converted, but I’ve become somewhat jaded by various experiences.
Re: the Trinity, Paul’s phrase in Colossians (?) has been helpful to me: “He is the image of the invisible God, the express likeness…”
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I feel the same way; I find it much easier to spend an hour or two reading a book about theology or church history than to spend even half that time praying or performing self-examination. There’s a certain amount of admiration I have for fundamentalists, I mean those King James Bible-only, congregationalist types, because of their self-confidence and total dedication to their understanding of Christianity, even though I vehemently disagree with them intellectually/theologically.
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I wonder if most of us aren’t that way. I think Nicholas has a point, as we become more attuned to the intellectual side of our faith, it’s easy to lose the evangelistic fervor. I wonder if some of it isn’t simply the more you know, the harder it is to explain. And yet, and maybe connectedly, Jesus did say, “let the little children come unto me”. I envy Bosco that childlike (and perhaps childish) faith. But I can’t step in that river again, and I don’t remember the first time, either, for that matter.
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Yep, there’s a balance that must be practiced, and it’s not easy. Earlier in my walk of faith, I had evangelical fervor but without any knowledge of the intellectual tradition of the church, and so I was easily tossed about like a boat on the waves. I liked the tools needed for spiritual discernment, and so any internal movement was easily mistaken for God’s voice, which lead to some unfortunate consequences here and there. This way of living left me a bit jaded and feeling like I’d been taken advantage of by the Christian world, most specifically the evangelical world. After discovering the intellectual tradition of historic Christianity, I found the solid ground my faith was desperately in need of, but I gradually lost the evangelical fervor in the process. Nowadays I seek that needed balance between the two and have been much more at peace, though still there’s much to be desired with my own spiritual life.
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“Liked” should read “lacked”
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I suspect it is a problem for us all, none of our liturgical churches are particularly good at evangelization, we do a lot of thing well, but not that. There must be a balance there somewhere, but I haven’t found it either, really. Like you, I eventually got pretty well grounded through the history of the faith (not to mention the Patristic Fathers mostly introduced here) but I can’t really force myself out in public with it, although I can manage an occasional blog post, which is something, I guess.
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Yeah I think at least in the United States, many decades of being at the top of the food chain culturally, and having high enough birth rates to remain a self-propagating entity, have lead the liturgical church bodies to complacency about evangelism. Agreed on the part about the blogging, as well.
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I suspect you’re correct. We’ve pretty much held on, but we’re not growing as we should be – or as some are.
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But with the declining birth rates among Anglos, who used to form the majority and backbone of the liturgical churches in the US, and the cultural decline of Christianity’s influence, all of this will change. Church bodies that try to continue operating as if it’s 1965 will die.
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Yep, Mostly Rome gains from our immigration (although there are increasing numbers of Lutherans, and Evangelical amongst the Hispanics). But it’s very definitely majority Catholic. And the Anglos birthrate isn’t enough to keep the country, let alone our churches.
Yep, we need to tell that old, old story again, or we’re done, and I think our leadership has much to answer for in that.
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Yep, I agree the reason the U.S. Catholic Church hasn’t experienced the same collapse as the mainline denominations is because of the large influx of Catholic Hispanic immigration. I suspect we will eventually have that collapse anyway, it’s just being delayed by the importation of a Catholic demographic with higher birth rates and a strong culture of tradition.
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I think you’re right, and at least around here, you have some severe, perhaps insoluble problems in your congregations, not that we don’t as well, but it’s more muted.
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I can’t say I know much about problems that affect Catholic parishes, other than the mentioned demographic issues. Since my conversion, my parish participation has not gone beyond showing up for Sunday mass and meeting with my priest once a month for confession and spiritual direction.
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But is sincerity of value if it is heretical?
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I grant you it is a problem: St. Paul talks of “zeal, but not according to knowledge”. If someone has a teachable spirit, their zeal can be redirected. Zeal can be worked with, but apathy is a dead weight. Maybe Bosco is a modalist, which is bad. But maybe this is to some extent a linguistic rather than an ontological issue. I think we need to have more of a cool discussion with him to find out what he really thinks. He has been absent for a little while now – I am concerned that his feelings may have been hurt. But maybe he is having a time of spiritual reflection. Pray for him.
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I have a keen interest in theology and since my teen year’s belonged to evangelical churches that have valued and studied church history and the historic theological debates. I also find evangelism as natural as breathing. I think being brought up in a home where Christianity was continually opposed led to and prepared me for the task.
I have had many evangelical friends who are scared stiff at the prospect of evangelism and perhaps unprepared for the opposition they may encounter. This and other factors cause them to be embarrassed, stressed and awkward when they attempt it (Which they do perhaps out of peer pressure, their tradition or duty). My opinion is that working under such a strain in their evangelism causes much of the adverse reaction to the process from their audience. I hardly ever experience an adverse reaction, people seem at ease and voice their opinions or objections and are respected for them.
I have just returned from Russia being on holiday with another couple the husband a medical doctor is absolutely firm in his atheism – we get on very well and frequently our conversation is about Christianity more usually initiated by him.
The weakest strand of my faith is contemplation and prayer.
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I think the idea of sharing one’s faith has often been promoted to churchgoers in the wrong way, as if talking about our faith must be presented as a sermon or some type of sales pitch. Ray Comfort and his ilk tend to promote this style of evangelism as the way par excellence of how we should share our faith. What you’re talking about, sharing the gospel as it naturally comes up, is probably the way most believers should share their faith. And I think that as we allow the gospel to transform us, speaking about it in our own lives will eventually seem natural and not so threatening. Of course, there’s sometimes no way to avoid uncomfortable conversations about this stuff if you have a non-believing friend or family member who enjoys putting you on the spot. In those cases, if I think somebody is just prodding me because they want to argue for the sake of arguing, I have a tendency to deflect them and tell them to go do their own research if they’re really interested in truth (that of course may not be the best way).
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Bosco, you have made a big mistake. And I think it is because you do not understand how the Trinity works… For example, is Jesus was the Father, then why would Jesus pray to the Father? It makes no sense to pray to yourself. Just think about what these people have said in the comments and think over it. I’m 15 and I suspect you don’t need someone my age to explain the Trinity to you.
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One thing I want to say is that age shouldn’t determine the ability to teach. You are as welled equipped to tell anyone any of these things as a 50 year old.
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Good brother classicalmusic, thank you for coming in here contributing. Its a breath of fresh air.
Jesus prayed to the Father, because Jesus, the son was here on earth and the Father was in heaven. Its a trinity. Take a look at Genesis creation. it says…..Let us create man in OUR image. How was god talking to? It was the father, Son and Holy Ghost talking amongst themselves. Its not hard to grasp.
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But it clearly goes against what John 3:16 says.. That God sent His only begotten SON. It doesn’t say God the Father sent himself.
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This is the mystery good brother classicalmusic. Let not you heart be troubled.
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So, even someone you invited here can see through you; you really couldn’t make it up!
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hes new to this business. Trinity sometimes confuses people. He shouldn’t be troubled by it. Im not letting it bother me.
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You can’t even admit you are wrong; how sad.
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Reblogged this on The Catholic Thinker and commented:
Good article that begins to explain the Father/Son/Trinity doctrine. Make sure to check out the original!
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But what then of the idea that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father? At this point, Bosco has to abandon his usual literalist reading, as it makes no sense.
I think Gen 18…three men approach Abraham. They each had their own body. And they talked to each other. Abraham refered to them in the singular. Some how he knew they were all three God himself.
Sitting at the right hand means a place of absolute power. Jesus is also a Lamb crucified in heaven.
None of this matters if one doesn’t know The Lord.
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Indeed – and as St John says, he who says Jesus is not God in flesh is the anti-Christ – thanks for the confirmation.
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Its late where you are.I guess its Ok the sock down the Glenlivet.
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Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
You deny this?
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Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
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So Jesus was not, as you said, just a man.
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No matter what I say you find fault. I guess that is payback for me finding fault with your graven image religion that you love so much.
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No, it is pointing out that whilst banging on about the mote in the eyes of others, there’s a great big beam in your own eye.
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Yeah, I said Jesus is our kinsman redeemer. One of us….a man. the son of man. You got a problem with that? You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
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He is the Word Incarnate – so yes, and it is no gnat. St john says those who deny that are anti-Christs
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I know him personally. I have met him. And he knows me. I don’t have to convince you of anything. I know you don’t believe it. But I have given my testimony many times.
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So, we believe you or 2000 years’ worth of evidence? Nothing you say matches Scripture or the testimony of history.
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I cant help that good brother. I was taken, I wont say against my will, because at the time, I was feeling a need to do god a service by attending church. Even my parents stopped going so I had my mother drop me off at church. I figured that was my service. But He had other things in mind.
Why are you beating be about the head with scripture? Since when did you care what the bible said?
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Always Bosco. Only you, with your head full of nonsense, believe Catholics do not value the book the Church canonised.
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yeah, sure you do. Don’t get me started. I am trying to be less boring now a days.
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You could try reading what you quote in full, or even a whole book. You could try leaving you prejudices aside when you read. You could pray for guidance when you read. Failing al, of that, you could think before you type.
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There are tons more people who believe what I believe.. These are the born again and various as of yet unsaved folks. Not everyone is catholic, you know.
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Bosco, please understand. There has been so much Scriptural evidence up there to prove your reasoning incorrect, and by that, you are not going by a strict Protestant rule: Sola Scriptura. let me ask you; Are you a traditional Reformed Protestant? or a contemporary one? and what denomination?
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Good question my brother. I don’t belong to any denomination. Im not even a protestant. the bible is my only source of Gods words. I met the Lord and follow him. He is my shepherd. I let him do battle for me.
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Ok, let me pose my question differently…
What kind of church do you go to? And what denominations beliefs are matched closely to yours?
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The church is the sum total of the born again. We have no flag, or a name, or a jail or a bank. We have no set of beliefs. We are in awe that we were lost and now we see.
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That is what you private self-invented religion says. The Bible makes it very clear that Christians have a set of beliefs. Keep digging Bosco, you have revealed that your spirit is not a holy one.
I wonder what classicalmusicguy makes of the view that Christians have no set of beliefs?
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He probably has something called a set of core beliefs as most do. It just so happens that I don’t. I let Jesus do my thinking.
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No, you let whatever spirit is in you think for you. That spirit is not from Jesus, though it has suckered you into thinking it is. Bosco, you are in real danger of losing your soul. You can repent, you can be exorcised, but I warn you with all seriousness that if you continue to let this spirit think for you you will find yourself in the lake of fire and the spirit laughing at you. You have been warned.
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Oh jeeze, don’t let me get started. Its early and im groggy.
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And yet none of the people here agree with you, and you cannot support your argument from Scripture.
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I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. That’s why im here.
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Yes, but even someone you brought here does not agree with you. You are not a Christian, Bosco, you have told us you have no set of beliefs.
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No beliefs is better than believing in a queen of heaven.
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This has been explained to you a thousand times, but you are too ignorant to understand it.
The Bible clearly says Christians have a set of beliefs, you have none, therefore you are neither Biblical nor a Christian. You are a poor deluded fool taken control of by a demon spirit for its won statisfaction.
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Its 5 in the morning here and I woke up to get a cold drink and the computer was on and I came in here to take a look. Don’t press your luck.
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‘Tons more’ eh, Bosco? Let us refer to what classicalmusicguy, whom you asked to come here, has to say:
‘Bosco, please understand. There has been so much Scriptural evidence up there to prove your reasoning incorrect, and by that, you are not going by a strict Protestant rule: Sola Scriptura’
You go on about ‘man-made religions’ – there is only one such here, your own. You have made up your own religion followed by yourself. I have no idea what sort of spirit it is that is in you, but let us look at the fruit: lies about the Church; a website that is a disgrace; insults to the Mother of Jesus. By their fruits shall ye know them? What does such fruit say about your spirit?
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Good brother classical is just spooked about one issue….Jesus being the Father. Its just terminology. And you want to make a big deal about it. Why don’t you ask him about how he feels about bowing down befor graven images.
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Because unlike you, he’s educated and he knows that it is not just terminology. I can’t believe you are this ignorance Bosco. Quite amazing.
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Say what you will about me. At least I don’t belong to a cult of personality.
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Nor do Catholics, Bosco. Go back to sleep, you are making even less sense than usual.
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I’m not spooked, Bosco… but chalcedon is right… Christians do have a set of beliefs that are needed to be followed.
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Good brother Chalcedon is calling my spirit a demon. I might get up and make some hash browns and eggs and lay into what berserk things he believes. He doesn’t even know half of the things his religion pushes. Neither does most cathols. They just bow to what ever graven image they put out.
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Bosco, you are an ignorant buffoon, who knows nothing about what Catholic believe. You have read some nonsense on the Internet and the demon in you makes you believe it is true. A Graven Image is something you worship in place of God, no Catholic worships anything in place of God. All you do is repeat nonsense, Bosco, a parrot would do better.
I warn you now, you are in reach of hell-fire, and when you are burning and ask for a drop of water from Father Abraham, you will be denied it. Repent, follow the real Jesus, not the one you make up, and acquire a set of beliefs.
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The legend of Crying Mary says that at the stroke of midnight on every Sunday, the statue cries. People have claimed to have seen and felt her tears. Some say she only cries at night and never during the day. The story has been circulating some say, since the 1940’s and continues on.
The statue is actually a Greek Goddess but over the years people began to associate it with the Virgin Mary and that’s how it became Crying Mary.
Read More: The Legend Of Crying Mary At Battle Creek’s Oak Hill Cemetery | http://kalamazoocountry.com/the-legend-of-crying-mary-at-battle-creeks-oak-hill-cemetery/?trackback=tsmclip
Read More: The Legend Of Crying Mary At Battle Creek’s Oak Hill Cemetery | http://kalamazoocountry.com/the-legend-of-crying-mary-at-battle-creeks-oak-hill-cemetery/?trackback=tsmclip
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Mary isn’t a virgin anymore. She had at least 7 kids. But don’t let that get in the way of a good fable.
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We have been through this hundreds of times. You lie about the Biblical evidence, and before you and a few fools, no Christians believed such stuff. But then back then they spoke Greek and understood the language.
You are a sad joke, A fool who cant even spell English trying to tell us what Greeks words mean. A man who knows no history trying to pretend he understands the past.
Behold the spirit that is in you – one of lies and insults to the mother of Jesus. Yes, we see what fruit you bear, and we know the identity of the spirit – that is why it is getting more and more demented.
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7 children you say? Now, where were they when the Holy Family went to Egypt, and where were they at Golgotha? If you had a child of 5’s awareness of history you’d know children had to look after widowed mothers – so why does Jesus have to give Mary to John to look after rather than the 7 children? Really Bosco, even by your abysmal standards, that was dumb.
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Jesus gave Mary to John because his real bros and sis didn’t believe in him. John would lead her to the truth. Even Mary wasn’t a believer at the time.
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Jesus was the firstborn. they went to Egypt befor the others were born. Jesus was still a baby. Not hard to fathom.
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So where were they at the Cross, and why did Jesus ask a cousin to look after his mother rather than a brother or sister? No, your late, man-made story (there is no evidence of it in the early writings) is just that – made up by men like you who know nothing of Jesus.
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Poor Bosco, reduced to nonsense from the Internet, as usual. You missed the bit where the Church approves of this? What’s that, it doesn’t? Well then, why lie? This is what you do, you find some odd thing on the net and then lie by pretending it is approved by the Church when it isn’t.
This from a man with no beliefs who is occupied by the spirit of lies. You couldn’t make it up Bosco,
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The Church is a term…it isn’t an entity. The word church cant approve anything. The people believe this stuff. That’s all that matters. And you believe it too.
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Not what Jesus said in the Bible, not what St Paul says in the Bible – your man-made Bosco worship will send you to hell.
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Im talking about your church. Christs church is invisible.
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That is not what Jesus and the Apostles said.
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We don’t have a flag or a jail or big fat headquarters and legions of perverted costumed holymen. That makes us invisible.
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There is no ‘we’, your church is you and you alone – with no set beliefs – what a joke 🙂
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All I know is I was blind and now I see
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Catholics in Guadalajara say a statue of the Virgin Mary is weeping blood. The small statue appears to have her cheeks caked in a dark red substance that looks like drying blood. Those who have seen it say it is a miracle.
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In the year 1251, in the town of Aylesford in England, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock, a Carmelite. She handed him a brown woolen scapular and said, “This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.” In time, the Church extended this magnificent privilege to all the laity who are willing to be invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who perpetually wear it.
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment.
This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
1.Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
2.Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
3.Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php
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Rules for wearing a Scapular
A small scapular must consist of two wool squares of cloth, connected by two strings (of any material), so that one segment rests on your chest and the other on your back. If you would like, you can wear more than one scapular at a time, so long as each scapular is complete. Once you have your scapular it is important to have it blessed by a priest and if necessary to become invested with the confraternity associated with it (A further blessing that can be granted by an authorized priest). Once you have your scapular blessed it must be worn at all times in order to share in the indulgences and privileges of the particular scapular. Should you remove the scapular for any period of time you are no longer eligible for its associated blessings, however, as soon as you resume wearing the scapular you are reinvested in its indulgences. Should your scapular wear out, you may replace it with an unblessed scapular, as the indulgences are invested in the devotion of the wearer, not the object.
https://www.catholiccompany.com/content/How-to-use-the-Scapular.cfm
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Yawn ….
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Your religion is one of works, trinkets and graven images. yet you say I have an evil spirit. You teach your little ones this devilish religion. They become two fold the child of heel as yourself.
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No, it isn’t. The Church was founded by Jesus and people are in it to this day. Unlike your man-made religion, this one is followed by billions of people and has ben across two thousand years – during that time it has taken on many features of local cultures. You have no culture, you know no history, and by your own confession you have no beliefs.
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Product Description
This Scapular was given by the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Peter Nolasco on Aug. 2, 1218, for the redemption of captive Christians. The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared in separate visions on the same night to St. Peter Nolasco, to St. Raymond of Penafort (a Spanish Dominican), and to James 1st, King of Aragon, Spain. Our Lady’s request was for the establishment of an order for the ransoming of Christian slaves. King James insisted that the shield of Aragon be placed on the scapular. The opposite side bears the “A” & “M” for the Ave Maria. Today, the Scapular of Mercy is used for the ransoming and redeeming of souls from the devil.
Made of 100% wool with crucifix, St. Benedict Jubilee Medal, and accompanying prayers. Made in the USA.
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Item #: 2010801
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yawn
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I understand that good brother Servus wears one of these trinkets. hes covering his bases. he wants to shorten his time in purgatory. You cant blame him. He probably bought the delux model. Uh, which model do you wear good brother Chalcedon?
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yawn
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Your church is still selling heaven. You say I have my own religion. maybe I should sell the afterlife. It beats working.
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It isn’t- your evidence?
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Youre not serious, rite? I think you are a bot developed by Catholic Answers
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That would be you having no evidence then? You are welcome to provide your evidence – if you have any. My guess is you have more cut and paste things you don’t understand. You, I fear, are an atheist bot gone wrong.
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The beauty of selling get out of hell trinkets is, no one has come to get their money back. The clergy like their expensive parties and mansions and luxury cars.
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Again, show me where it says that you can’t go to hell? Unlike your man-made Bosco religion, the Church founded by Jesus does not teach once saved always saved- so how could it sell salvation? You are a prize buffoon.
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I don’t know why it does, but you can see that it does. I know why you didn’t comment on the articles I put up. Theres nothing to say.
The Jehovas and Mormons and Seventh Dayers all have wacky ways to earn salvation. Its a religion thing.
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No, it doesn’t. I do wonder whether you have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old. Find a single passage in the whole of the Catholic Catechism that supports your view and I will agree and give up. But my deal is that if you can’t, you do the same.
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The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment.
Again, show me where it says that you can’t go to hell?
Uh, is that more clear, my brother?
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None of which guarantees they go to heaven – your cut and paste seems to have missed that bit. As I say, show me where the Catechism says you can buy your salvation and I go away – but you have to do the same if you can’t.
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catechism? I don’t put any stock in that hoax. its the CC talking about itself. Jesus said…..ye shall know them by what they say about themselves. (;-D
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The Catechism is the official statement of what Catholics believe – so of course you can’t find in it any of the rot you find on the Internet.
You make claims Bosco, they are easily disproved by the Catechism.
How sad that you have a new spirit and all it does it tell you you are saved and makes you lie – who would want such a spirit that bore such rotten fruit?
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A personal relation with Jesus is better than reading scripture. For the scriptures speak of Him. The catholic handbook has nothing to offer me.
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You can’t have a personal relationship with the Jesus we see in the Bible, as you believe none of the things he and his church teach. Whoever you have a relationship with, it isn’t Jesus – whatever your lying spirit tells you.
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I need to get me one of those scapulars, just in case.
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Yawn …
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Did you know Tiger Woods was arrested for drunk driving this morning at 3 in the morning?
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And I should care?
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Sorry, chalcedon. I will get that article up soon, just been flat out with school and all that… turns out I have to learn a whole movement for a concerto in just a month,
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I quite understand – and much liked your post – thank you.
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You are right about how important history is to understanding the context of Scripture and helping us understand how early Believers understood God’s truths and applied them to community!
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