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The modern scholarly line which maintains that orthodoxy is simply the set of beliefs that have won out across time, and thus implies that heresies are simply beliefs which the Church chose not to follow, is both right and profoundly wrong. It is right to say they are the beliefs that won out, although, as I suggested last time, if one believes in an hermeneutic of continuity in which the Church founded by Christ is, indeed, resistant to the Gates of Hell, this need occasion no surprise. But if, as is often implied, such a view is taken to mean that there is no such thing as orthodox belief, nothing could be less true. We can see from the New Testament itself the concern of the Evangelists to ensure that wrong beliefs were not adopted; from the beginning there were tares among the wheat.
There is heresy in the New Testament. Galatians, Colossians, the Pastoral Epistles, Jude, 2 Peter, 1 John and Revelation are the places we find heresy. The bad news for those who argue that ‘orthodoxy’ was a late development is that the heretics are denounced by the writers of those epistles, because heresy appears only as a set of errors which are to be condemned; you can only condemn something if you have an orthodoxy against which to measure what is unorthodox.
St Paul rebukes the Galatians for listening to those who preached ‘another Gospel’. It seems they had been promoting the idea that Gentile converts should be circumcised. They had been putting forward the idea that it was vital to observe Old Testament Law. These ‘Judaisers’ may well, as some have speculated, have been from the Jerusalem Church, and have been ‘James’ men’. Either way, it took the first council of Jerusalem to rule on the issue. You might argue that this set the model for the future. Someone came along to a church claiming something which the Apostle who founded it had never said; it caused a ruckus; the Church decided what was and was not orthodox.
We don’t quite know what the ‘Colossian heresy’ was. In his epistle, Paul mentions circumcision, food laws, Sabbath and purity regulations, but whilst there may have been elements of ‘Judaising’ there were other element involved. Paul mentions words such as ‘pleroma’ (fullness), ‘philosophia’, and ‘gnosis’ (knowledge), all of which, along with the rest of the letter, suggest elements of gnosticism. This was one of the earliest and most persistent of heresies. Its adherents claimed that they were inspired by the ‘new spirit’ mentioned by Jesus, and that, as a result of this, they had access to special knowledge (gnosis) which was denied to those who had never been visited by the spirit. It allowed those arguing such a position to contradict what even the Apostles taught, as they had access to some secret knowledge which allowed them a unique understanding of what the words of Jesus meant.
In Titus and 1 and 2 Timothy, we see Paul roundly condemning heretical teaching. Again it looks as though there was a mixture of Judaising and gnostic speculations. None of this should be surprising. It was natural that many converting Jews would bring with them their own practices, and that converting Gentiles would do the same.
It may have been similar sorts of teaching against which Jude was warning when he writes about false teachers who do not ‘have the Spirit.’ These self-seeking, unreliable and unstable shepherds were roundly condemned. It may be that like those mentioned in 2 Peter, they ‘cunningly devised fables’ about the date of the Second Coming, and justified indulgence in fleshly sins on the back of it. One early, and repeated heresy, was the idea that the ‘saved’ could not lose salvation, and were therefore free to indulge their fleshly appetites.
We can see in 1 John that, as in Colossus and Galatia, some of the heretics had been part of the church, but had ended up preaching a different Gospel. In other words, men and women who had been converted by the Apostle himself, or, in the parlance of Bosco, had been ‘saved’, claimed that the new spirit they had received gave them access to a revelation which allowed them to refute even the Apostle himself. in John’s case, it seems as though members of his own Community denied that Jesus had come truly in the flesh – an early form of what became known as Docetism.
Revelation is a feast of examples of heresies: the Nicolaitans (who seem to have urged believers to take part in pagan rituals); a Jezabel, who led believers into idolatry, and the ‘depths of Satan’, another set of idolaters.
Against all of this was set the message which Paul and the Apostles had received, what Jude called the ‘faith once delivered to the Apostles’. There was, as we shall see, a diversity of orthodox belief and practice, but there was, from the beginning, a very clear idea of what lay outside the sphere of what Christians could believe and remain Christian.
If, even in the era of the Apostles, false teachers abounded, it is hardly to be wondered at that as the early arrival of the Second Coming was postponed, the Christian communities wrestled with the implications of some of the Gospel teaching. Indeed, one reason the New Testament exists is that churches kept Paul’s letters, an men like Mark, who had been Peter’s secretary, and Luke, who had been a companion of St Paul’s, wrote down their accounts of the ministry of Jesus and, in the case of Luke, wrote the earliest history of the Church.
Orthodoxy is nothing new, but we see this debate time and again in academia. Part of the problem is linguistic – people import the meaning of English words into the original texts without warrant and create confusion where there was none. God’s covenant community has always had voices to remind the people of the truth; this is a major function of the prophets under the Old Covenant. They reminded people of the Abrahamic and Mosaic revelations, which are foundational to our knowledge of God.
Good post.
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Yep, and that’s why I often defer to others here, and Bosco doesn’t. I recognize that translation is difficult, especially to catch especially nuanced meaning in the original, and I do neither Greek nor Latin. The translators all do their best, I think, but it’s not hard to find differences between versions, and excessive dependence on one version can easily lead to error.
To see how it works, take a passage from nearly anything, Google translate it to nearly any other language and back to English. It’s the multilanguage version of playing telephone, and just as inaccurate.
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Another really helpful post, and part of a great new series to follow on from your excellent previous series. I really appreciate the time and intellectual energy you are putting into this work (and the scholarly standards to which you are adhering). This post and the other recent posts on the early church have been huge helpful for me, as I am trying to gain a greater and more balanced understanding of the holy catholic church.
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Glad to be of help Rich 😊
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It is scary to see how many of the early heresies have since resurfaced in the modern world with a new name. So many people claim the “once saved always saved” belief, as well as misunderstandings concerning the incarnation and private revelation. It’s comforting to see that the Church has always dealt with (and prevailed against) these beliefs. Interesting read! God bless!
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Thank you. Yes, over the coming days you may recognise quite a few ideas that are still, alas, about.
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Saved is short for…..saved from the coming wrath of the Almighty God.
If you don’t know if youre saved…..guess what?
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So, there’s just you? You’ve been unable to provide a single NT person who speaks as you do. Your man-made personal cult is not Biblical,
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The apostles were more tolerant and slow to wrath than I am. Jesus talks more like myself. Or rather, I talk more like Jesus than I do like the apostles. Jesus was quick to lay flat the religious men and their traditions.
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So, just quote Jesus saying he is human, like you and saved. You can’t, because he was not just human – or are you claiming to be God Incarnate?
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No, just claiming to talk like Him.
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So, you can’t point to a single person except Jesus ? So, are you Jesus? No.
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No. I just talk like Him.
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if anyone comes around with a new or added onto gospel, do not believe it, even if they claim to be saved and have a hotline to god.
Many have come claiming to be Christ, or in the place of Christ.
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You have a wholly novel gospel, which is why no Christian listens to you
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I don’t see this as a new gospel my brother.
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Everyone else does.
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chaldecon, you appear to very intelligent and learned in the Early Church writings. But from what I have seen, you twist Bosco’s words quite a lot. The Apostle’s talked a lot like Jesus at times, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they claimed to be God did they? Apostles were only human, just like Bosco. Just don’t.
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Bosco has been here for 5 years claiming to be the only saved person here – Jesus did not claim that, nor did the Apostles
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Good brother classicalmusic, good brother Chalcedon runs out of things to accuse me of. Twisting words is all these false religion people have. They cant say scripture is good because of what they do, as their religion commands them to do. So they say that God commands them to make and bow down befor graven images. Theres nothing else for them to do but twist words.
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But Jesus never claimed to be the only saved person and never taught that once you were saved you could never lose it.
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So what? Your temples are full of graven images and all you can do is nit pick at the saved? You’ve got a bigger problem than what the saved believe. You belong to a religion of idols and costumes that masquerade as holy when holiness is the last thing on their agenda. Get a grip ol bean befor its too late.
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Again, all these lies have been tackled at length. You are now repeating yourself for the fifth year – what a bore
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Graven images = idols you worship instead of God – in your few non-ranting moments even you admit Catholics do not do that – so why repeat a lie?
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OOps/ im lying> cathols never bow them selfs befor the works of their hands. HGow stupid of me. I say modern cathols don’t worship the statue. But they do when they bow befor it. Sorry. Id rather be on the side that doesn’t bow befor images than be on the side thatdoes bow befor images.
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No, you are lying when you say we worship graven images – and what is worse is that you know you are lying. If I acquired a new spirit addicted to lying, I’d be less sure that it was from God.
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it seems as though members of his own Community denied that Jesus had come truly in the flesh
Most people on earth do not believe Jesus was God, the Creator of heaven and earth. Do we think such people should live forever in eternal torment? Even though they be good and giving souls? Personally, if I was god, I would let them in. But there is this law, a law that Jesus cant break. If one doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he has not life. Its grading on my nerves to see people everywhere walking around and what not, and they all will wind up in eternal torment.
I have a good friend who is atheist.
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And you believe God is lonely
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Well, yes I do.
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Another erroneous belief.
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Tell me, do you believe in the Trinity?
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Bosco. God is not lonely. He sites in Heaven with all the people who are currently in Heaven. I believe in the Trinity seeing as though I am Presbyterian, and I believe that it is only human to believe in it. But yes, Bosco is right, most people do not believe that Jesus is God, and/or no God at all.
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And do I believe you can lose your faith? No, I don’t. But I do believe that the unsaved can resist the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
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Your belief is interesting – but Paul’s letter constantly refer to his own converts backsliding.
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Good brother classical, I don’t believe God is lonely anymore. Even though the judgment hasn’t happened in our frame of reference, it has happened in Gods world already. We are with him now. I just tell good brother Chalcedon that to shut him up. The carnal man doesn’t understand the things of the spirit. So I try not to get to deep with him. Its like spanking a cat. They don’t understand why you are hitting them.
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You, Bosco, take God’s word and twist it. You change your mind rather swiftly – not a sign of the spirit of truth.
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Converts backslide. but its better than never being born again. And no….a mouth full of crackers doesn’t make you born again. No matter what the costumed pedophile tells you.
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You and CMG disagree – two Protestant, two views – what a surprise. No one teaches that receiving the body and blood of Christ saves you / but the Church had always taught that insulting Jesus is wrong- the father of lies is your spirit.
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Yeah, sure, I twist gods words. If that makes you feel better. Only I don’t vainly repeat prayer, like you cathols do, I don’t make or bow befor the works of my hands, like you cathols do, I don’t call homosexuals in costumes Father like you cathols do. yet you say I twist scripture. You even have a queen of heaven which God expressly says he hates. Twist scripture?
Its not to late to ask jesus to reveal himself to you.
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Bosco, everything here has been refuted so many times — you are a bore
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Ah, but backsliding is different to losing your salvation completely… backsliding is temporary, however I believe that your salvation is permanent. And it is quite normal for Protestants to have differing beliefs. Such as, Presbyterians and Baptist’s view on Baptism, and Lutheran’s and Presbyterian’s views on head covering.
Now please, let us try to be civil about this. Calling Bosco’s spirit the father of lies is disgraceful and telling chaldecon to shut up is plain rude.
Now, before you are wondering why I am here, chaldecon, it is because that bosco invited me here, so I’m just doing as I am told really. And you can just call me Jonah by the way. 😉
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Interesting that you believe that, but it is not what either the Catholic or the Orthodox Church teaches or have ever taught.
Bosco has been tolerated here for 6 years, and when he simply repeats lies that have been rebutted time and time again, there are only two explanations; I have been offering the more charitable of the two.
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That is because I am not a Catholic or part of the Orthodox Church.
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The threads may be crossing here, but this appears on mine as an answer to the question of whether Bosco believes in the Trinity – I take it you do?
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I did say up there somewhere that I do… and I was saying that i don’t believe that backsliding and losing salvation is the same thing. Then you pointed out that that was not what the Orthodox and Catholic Church teaches, and I merely pointed out that I am not either of them, or will ever be.
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Thanks for the clarification. Do you believe in eternal assurance then?
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Of course. But only for those who are truly saved.
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The Truth is the Truth, regardless of whether one is saved, surely?
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Now, i shall post my thoughts on this article… you’re not gonna like it.
Direct quote from the article;
There is heresy in the New Testament. Galatians, Colossians, the Pastoral Epistles, Jude, 2 Peter, 1 John and Revelation are the places we find heresy.
Heresy huh? And Catholics use these books? I have never heard this from a Catholic or let alone anyone else before. But let me set this straight for you, because Catholic tend to overdo things.
Who wrote the Bible? God did through earthly men such as Moses, Paul, etc.
Does God lie? No.
Is God perfect? yes.
Does that mean God could in any way write heresy in any form? No.
Is calling parts of the New Testament blasphemy then? yes.
Is blasphemy a sin? yes.
Doesn’t sound so good doesn’t it? No, it doesn’t.
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Good brother classical, I wish to thank you for coming in here and lending a hand. may god richly bless you.
As far as these false religion people go, they don’t know which end is up concerning Gods Word. Their demonic religion has told them that the bible is a dead letter and that only their costumed pedophile homosexual magisterium actually knows what scripture really means. There are tons of false religions. Do the saved care? well, we do, but we don’t care what they say. We want to see them saved.
All we can do is shine the light of the gospel onto their unholy demonic idolatrous religion and hope they see the light.
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For 5 years you have repeated these lies – tell me, does anyone else not ban you.
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Im welcome in what few born again blogs there are. but why would I hang out where people already know the Lord? I go where people don’t know the Lord….like here.
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In which case you are in the wrong place
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False religions are easy to spot
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Which is why no one here follows your false religion. It is quite clear, Bosco, that whatever you worship, it has nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible. By all means linger here like a bad smell, but I have done my best for you. From here on in Bosco, Matthew 18:17 applies – (look it up).
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Yes, we find the authors writing about wrong beliefs – heresies.
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Brave soul. calling the holy scriptures fouled with heresy. It stands to reason that the CC calls the bible a “dead letter”
I was unsaved at one time. I cant condemn you for being unsaved. far from that. Im lucky God picked me up out the sewer.
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I though Protestants could read – it lists the heresies mentioned there – including the heresy that a new spirit gave you special secret knowledge / yes, you believe a heresy mentioned and condemned in the Bible
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Keep worshiping the queen of heaven
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You know no one does that, Bosco – I’d say you were making a fool of yourself, but you do that most times you comment
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So do you Catholics read those books or nah?
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Even for a friend of Bosco’s, that is a remarkably silly question. Who do you suppose put them in the Bible for you Prots to misinterpret?
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Sorry, that was before I misread the article… please ignore. haha.
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classicalmusician, please read the article more carefully. Chalcedon is saying in his article that the bible ADDRESSES heresy, not that the actual content of the bible IS heresy. He provides links in this article to the Bible to show how the very Word of God teaches AGAINST heresy. You are misreading what Chalcedon has written and coming to wrong conclusions. Please look at it again.
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Celia, I advise for you to look at brother chaldecon’s above comment.
Yes, we find the authors writing about wrong beliefs – heresies.
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Ohhh right, I get it now. haha, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out, Celia. 🙂
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And I advise you to reread what Celia wrote – she understood and she explained to you;/
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classicalmusician, For the sake of clarity, allow me the liberty of changing the punctuation in Chalcedon’s comment above by replacing the dash (“wrong beliefs –
heresies”) with parentheses so that the sentence reads like this:
“Yes, we find the authors writing about wrong beliefs (heresies).”
In other words, he is saying that we find the NT authors writing about wrong beliefs (heresies). Nothing objectionable about that.
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I think he eventually got your point – he’s a chum of Bosco’s, so goodness knows what he’s been told.
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It’s ok, chaldecon. Bosco hasn’t told me anything, this was only last week when Bosco invited me here. And thanks for the sake of liberty, Celia. 🙂
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Tell me, do you believe in the Trinity?
is that the best you got?
Old bean, its official….you have run out of ways to besmirch the saved. I guess that means you are getting close to giving up and letting Christ run things. Good. Glad to hear it
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Do you? And you still have not mentioned anyone in Scripture who talks as you do – where does Jesus say he is the only one saved?
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Im not going to tell you.
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Busted. You can’t. You practice that worst of man-made religions, one you have invented.
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Jesus never said that he was the only one saved. In fact he instructed his disciples to go out into the world and preach the Gospel so that people may be saved.
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Indeed, and his Church has been doing it ever since – I hope one day you will join it.
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Keep bowing befor your graven images. maybe they will tell you whgat Is right
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How many more times? Graven images are gods to be worshipped – if you think I worship a statue then you are a sad sack.
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Hahahahahahah…….graven images. Catholicism loves them.
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Graven images are gods, no Catholic worships Gods
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I tell you guys what, how about I write an article which I think both Catholics and Protestants can heartily agree on?
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Do you have a blog? If not, I am happy to extend an invitation to you.
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I do have a blog, but if it could be posted here as well I think that might be nice.
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I just have to write it up first.
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That’s fine. I can either publish it for you, but it will be difficult for you to monitor the comments, or I can send an invitation to your gmail address
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Is it okay if you sent the invitation please?
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Done. I shall delete your email address from the thread.
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oh right, email. sorry. it’s jonahpatuto@gmail.com
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Thanks, chalcedon. 🙂
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Let me know if there are any problems. In terms of timing, my ones go up at 13:00 hours UK time.
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