For the last few weeks readers have borne patiently with two series on one of the more obscure parts of the history of the Church. For our friend Bosco it was all pretty irrelevant: ‘Either one is saved or one isn’t. everyone is wrong. But only a few are saved.’ This is, as so often, at the extreme end of a not uncommon reaction among contemporaries; the new, the modern, is always more relevant than the old. What, Bosco asked elsewhere, was the point of all these ‘add ons’ to Christianity?
Pride, the desire to become as wise as God, led to the Fall of Man, and we see examples everywhere of where it leads us: being able to mine the resources of the earth to make life better for ourselves, we did so without regard for its effects, and when some of those effects are pointed out, we don’t much like it; being able to reason to make better laws for our governance, we forgot, or at least are forgetting, their foundation in the Natural Law, and so invent laws which defy it; being able to make weapons to defend ourselves, we have been able to make ones which can destroy the whole planet. But perhaps the most deadly pride of all is the one which we can trace through the history of the Faith we have been looking at these last few weeks?
Nestorius, like Arius before him, cited Scripture for his view that Mary was not the Mother of God. Arius had argued that Scripture showed that Jesus was a creature, the first of the creatures made by God, but a creature all the same. Against that, Bishop Alexander and then Athanasius had argued the opposite; but they had on their side not simply their own definition of Scripture, but the tradition they had inherited going back to the Apostles. But it was not the only ‘tradition’. We know, from St John’s Epistles, that there were those in in own community who denied his witness and taught that Jesus was not the Christ come in the flesh. Even in the earthly lifetime of the Incarnate Word, there were those who questioned His witness and left Him when he said that to be saved people would have to eat His body and drink His blood. One of the difficulties with claiming one is inspired by the Spirit is that anyone can do it, and from very early on, with Simon Magus, people did. How was the ordinary person to know who was, and was not, inspired by the true Spirit?
We see, in the history we have been reading, how early Christians sought to solve the problem – and we also see the problems that solution caused. Jesus founded a Church, and when His followers were in doubt, they were adjured to take their concerns to the Church. We see, in Acts, with the Council of Jerusalem how the Apostles interpreted that, and the Councils with which we have been dealing saw themselves as continuations of that. As it became clear that those who expected the Second Coming to happen in their lifetime (an expectation that can certainly be read from Christ’s words) were wrong, the scattered, and often persecuted, Christian communities, sought to ensure that, as the Apostles had wanted, only the right Gospel was preached. How did they do that, and how can we be sure they were right?
This is a vexed question for the historian, and there was, and still in some quarters is, a fashion for saying that the answer is that we cannot be sure, and that what is ‘orthodoxy’ was simply the stronger faction within Christianity, which asserted its will through force. There are two difficulties with this: the first is that it puts Christ out of the equation; the second is the historical context. Jesus founded a Church and said that the very forces of hell would not prevail against her, and read in this light, there is a hermeneutic of continuity to be discerned; despite the trials and tribulations, the Truth survived and was passed on. Secondly, at least until the days of Theodosius in the 380s, Christians possessed no State apparatus, and far from persecuting, were persecuted. So the early arguments over who Christ was and whether ‘Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ were one or three Gods, and if One, how could there be three persons, were hammered out with a reference to the traditions of the Church.
One of the fatal flaws in the often heard argument that by relying on one’s own reading of the Gospels one can somehow recover the primitive belief of the ‘real’ and ‘original’ Church, is that it means ignoring the lessons learnt by the Church in the past – and thus repeating old heresies, but with the added disadvantage that, being one’s own reading, and believing the Bible interprets itself, one leaves one in a state of spiritual pride. If, as he claims, Bosco is inspired by a new spirit, then what need has he of all these old stories? He has the Scriptures and as he put it recently when asked how he read the Bible: ‘I read one word after another. Do you have a better way?’ This is not how the first Christians proceeded, and the dangers in it are clear enough when you end up writing things like this (inspired, Bosco says, by his new spirit):
If I was god, I wouldn’t have gone thru all that.
let me let you in on a secret. There are laws, laws that even God cant break. I don’t understand them, and neither does anyone. Why cant he wave his magic wand and make it all better? I don’t know. But here is the deal……these sins separate us from god somehow, and they have to be cleansed. Cleansed befor we can sit in his presence. Why are they sins? I don’t know. But God is lonely. hes sick and tired of being alone. He wants a help meet. So, in order to make a bride, the bride must want to be his bride, and this bride must be of the same stuff as god. We all love our cats, but they aren’t human. The only way god can be with a bride is if she is like him…..sinless.
Quite what any of this has to do with the Gospel preached by Jesus and proclaimed by the early Church, I can’t say It is the way Bosco reads Scripture, ‘one word after the other’. Is there a better way? It would be hard to find a worse.
We have seen, in the history we’ve been reading, that even the early Church found it hard to agree on all essentials, so we shall now turn to examine how it tried to deal with some of the difficulties its members encountered. But to read the Book which the early Church canonised and to ignore its understanding of that Book and to substitute for it one’s own reading is both unhistorical – and spiritually dangerous.
This has been a fascinating series of articles, my husband and I have read them with great interest (we are not Catholic). After noticing a great deal of animus directed toward Catholic teaching in some Christian quarters, we decided to read and study to discover what all the fuss was about. The level or vitriol indicated to us that there was an agenda afoot, and whenever that is the case, truth gets trampled underfoot.This blog, along with other readings we have done, has been a great aid to us in understanding the history of the Church and its teachings. I have the greatest respect and regard for the Catholic Church for defining and defending the faith. I agree with the blog author that this has been achieved through the power of the Holy Spirit and not through prideful or egotistic efforts of misguided men. All of mankind is cursed with pride and ego, but the Holy Spirit can use men of goodwill throughout the ages. So, I just wanted to thank the blog author this morning for an excellent series and I look forward to continued reading here.
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Celia, first, very many thanks; that is one of the loveliest compliments imaginable. The vitriol directed at the Church is indeed the sign of an agenda. I plan to move on to fill the gap between Acts and the short series you have just read; I hope you both enjoy the future posts.
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I think vitrol is indeed an indicator of an underlying agenda, regardless of which side of the aisle it comes from. I’m glad y’all enjoy this blog, as well.
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One thought, after reading through these and the comments. It not only perplexes me that there are those who believe they can sever scripture away from the Church but at the same time, do they not sever the goal of the reformers? At least in the early part of Luther’s involvement, isn’t the ultimate goal to heal the wounds of the body of Christ, not to continue to continue to splinter? Isn’t this a conclusion one can reach when Luther rejected Zwingli’s theology on the Eucharist?
I pray for the unity of the Body of Christ and I have faith that the Holy Spirit will do wonders. However, I am not so sure that some Christian sects care about unity and rather than attempt to convince me of ‘their’ truth, they’d much rather I’d disappear in some fashion.
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That’s pretty much what I believe, as does a good share of my church (probably the Anglican, also). Luther saw himself as a reformer, always, I think, and never thought his followers should be Lutherans, closest he came, as far as I know, is Evangelical Catholics.
And your last paragraph, yeah, I get the same feeling. And no, I emphatically do not mean Catholics.
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It is certainly a puzzle – but the devil finds our weaknesses (on all sides) as useful as he did in Eden.
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Denominations that try to remove themselves further away from their Catholic roots tend to take on wackier views of the Scriptures. I know somebody who belongs to some independent Baptist sect which believes mainline Baptists aren’t “true” Baptists, and that their sect are the inheritors of an apostolic tradition that was never part of Catholicism. They unsurprisingly take some rather weird views of what the Scriptures mean.
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Good sister Celia, run away from the catholic church as fast as you can. Im telling you this as a friend. Run away and dont look back. Jesus is at your door knocking. You and your husband can open the door and let him in.
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I pray for the unity of the Body of Christ
Do you really believe that the body of Christ is in disarray?
My Christ has all of His sheep in his hand. if you want to qualify your prayer, you should pray that all theses sick sad religions become united into one big sick sad religion. But Jesus and His flock is not in disarray. We are one.
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This, Bosco, despite the fact you cannot cite a single person in Scripture claiming what you claim?
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I have been working like crazy these last 4 days and haven’t had the energy to search the scriptures to satisfy your desire for evidence of being born again. jesus said “ye must be born again” but that doesn’t register to the unsaved.
Why do you insist on scripture for evidence befor you believe it? Nothing the CC teaches is in scripture. Well, the queen of heaven is in scripture, but not in a good light. You pride your religion on having most of its beliefs not being in scripture. So why do you insist on it now?
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No one ever denied Jesus said you must be born again, indeed he said it, and said it would be through water and fire; do remind us all, were you water baptised? I seem to recall you weren’t, which is one of the many ways in which you do not reflect what we read in Scripture.
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I was minding my own business on a bus going back home after a disappointing nite at a weirdo jesus freak festival where I didn’t get a chick. I was changed halfway thru the ride. No water.
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Thanks for confirming that there is no correlation between what happened to you and the teaching of Jesus; this is what I have been telling you for a long time. There is no example in Scripture of what you describe. The nearest, Paul, was spoken to by Christ himself. That did not happen to you. There is simply no connection with Christianity Bosco, as you have now confirmed.
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Oh yeah, so what about you? You belong to the weirdest cult on earth.
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And, unable to respond, you resort to abuse. Jesus said water and fire, you say a spirit entered you on a bus. On the one hand the tradition of the Church which follows the word of Christ himself; on the other your testimony which has nothing to do with that tradition or Scripture. Go figure.
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Bosco, get a grip. Don’t lower yourself to good brother Chalcedons level of mudslinging.
Sorry ol bean, I shouldn’t return insults.
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There is no mud-slinging, Bosco, I simply point out the truth. Jesus said be born again by water and fire, you say you were born again when a spirit entered into you. Are you claiming it was the Holy Spirit?
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Are you having a two-way conversation with yourself like Golum in Lord of The Rings?
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As usual when he’s on the ropes, he goes quiet. Possibly gone to get a new script? What usually happens is he comes back and repeats his usual script as though nothing has happened.
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A new spirit was given to me. Its mine. It was created in heaven and was with Jesus and knows Jesus, and knows the creator of heaven and earth. It was dropped inside me. At first I was worried I was loosing my mind.
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Sorry, again Bosco, just show me and everyone else where the Bible rells us this will happen? Jesus says water and the fire of the Holy Spirit, he says nothing of any other spirit. You may well have been right to fear you were losing your mind; what you say is not what Jesus said, and your reading of the Bible is not that of the Church which gave it to you and the rest of us.
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“It was dropped inside me. At first I was worried I was loosing my mind.”
I think that fear was well-founded.
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A body has a unity and it is visible – all I see with you is an individual thinking outside the tradition and the mind of the Church, with no connection to what has been believed everywhere by most Christians for 2000 years; sorry Bosco, but someone needs to tell you these things.
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no connection to what has been believed everywhere by most Christians for 2000 years;
My mother used to say……..if you see people jumping off a cliff…will you jump off too?
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The problem, Bosco, is that you read a Book whose origins you reject in a way which reflect not Jesus, but a God made in your own image. Either billions of Christians now and in the past were all wrong, or you are – I’m betting you are. You have seen that not even Rob, the most Evangelical Christian here, agrees with you Are you going to tell him to knock on the door and let Jesus in?
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I don’t know why good brother Rod doesn’t believe my report. In the body of Christ, there is a head(Jesus) legs, arms, ears, mouth, hands. I quess some more moderate saints don’t agree with my harsh treatment of false religions.
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Rob understands what you fail even to see, that there ave been billions of Christians before us, and that when smeone preaches a gospel so contrary to what has been believed, we are told to reject it. This, Bosco, is why you are rejected here and in so many other places. We compare your personal, man-made reading of Scripture, with that of Godly men in the past and present, and we find nothing in common with you. You preach something Christ never said, that the Saints never taught, and that will not lead you to where you think it will. I do not doubt your report that a spirit entered you – but there are many spirits in this world, many are from the father of lies. You lie without even seeing.
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I don’t feel so bad. Your maryology and saintology isn’t in the bible either.
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Of course not, Bsoc, the Bible does not mention Stephen being martyred, nor does it mention Christians preserving relics of his, neither does it mention any great cloud of witnesses. It speaks of nothing else but meeting chicks on buses – oh, sorry, that’s you, isn’t it?
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May I ask you something good brother? Since when did you care what the bible said?
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Since always Bosco. I read it prayerfully daily, and I read it in the Greek too, and I study it. I marvel at the things you put in there that were never there. SO, Jesus saus water and fire, you say a new spirit on the bus. As I say Bosco, whatever it is you believe, it has nothing to do with the Bible or with Christ. If you are lucky, it is something you are making up; if you are unlucky, you are occupied by the spirit of a demon. To judge by your website, I fear it may be the latter. Have you been to see an exorcist?
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I didn’t set out to be born again. I was hijacked. But, you know what…..im super glad that I was. its kinda neat knowing the Almighty God personally. And its nice knowing I will be at the wedding supper.
Its must give you and others grey hair not knowing if you made the grade.
Im glad you brought up my demonic site.
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
I invite all, both large and small, to come to my demon filled site and see cathols in their natural habitat. come and find rest for your souls. Sit back and put your feet up and relax. Sign in and become a member. Glad to have you.
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Well, again, you make a claim made not even by St Paul, and certainly not by any of the evangelists. There is not one person in Scriptue who says ‘I will be at the wedding supper’, not a single one. Nor is there a single case of anyone but Jesus in the NT saying they know God personally. So there were go, Bosco, the Bible on one side, you on the other. Your site offers ample proof that the spirit in you is evil, and it lies and makes a liar out of you.
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I cant wait for you to get saves good brother. Rite now you are a big thorn in my side. ordinarily I wouldn’t answer this kind of question. I like to see idolators stay stupid. You know, cast the pearls kinda thing. But I will give you one example, out of many, of people who knew(know0 God.
Elisha.
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Indeed, but I hate to tell you this, he lived before Christ and was saved later. Just show me where he says he knows he will be at the wedding feast?
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Mine got in himmel, you are serious. RRRRIIIINNNGGGGG, class is in session.
I don’t have to show you where he say he(Elisha) will be at the supper. He was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire. What…do you think he wont be there? Are you freakin for real?
Ive always maintained the Catholicism turns a mans mind into a banana smoothie.
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You were not, it seems to me, taken from this earth. So again, if you could kindly point me to someone who, whilst still living, said he would be at the wedding feast. Of course, if you are writing this from heaven, just say so. If you are not, then Elisha does not prove your point.
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I notice that every time Bosco appears in a threat and begins ranting, it has the effect of discouraging serious conversation. When Bosco commented less the comment section seemed more robust and diverse, even if contentious at times.
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“Threat” should read “thread”
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It does, alas.
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Sometimes I stay out of a thread because I don’t want to interfere with a subject I really don’t care about. Other times, I feel tasked to join in.
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I’m just saying, threads tend to do fine until you dominate them with your rants, then it becomes all about Bosco and has little to do with the original content. Our ongoing discussion of this is case in point.
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The original content is always about men and rituals. I interject Chrit and him crucified. You came to the rite place if you love idolatry. Which I can see you do. But im going to shine the light of scripture on things. Too bad if you don’t like it.
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And yet, you were not baptised by water or fire and you do not have the Holy Spirit, just a new spirit you met on a bus with a chick – yes, we see nothing else in Scripture.
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No you don’t, you just say stuff that makes no sense and discourage people with actual opinions from jumping in.
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Maybe, hopefully, one day it will make sense to you.
I got water baptized during my time as a missionary.
have you ever left home to go out and just live by faith and be led where ever the spirit takes you to spread the good news?
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Tell us more about the water baptism. It remains the case that you are unable to tell us a single person in the NT who says they know they will be at the Wedding Feast; not one. As I say, Bosco, between what you say and what Jesus and the Gospels say, there is a huge gulf, and I fear you will fall into it – and below is the lake of fire.
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The saved know they are saved. I don’t know of any accounts in scripture of the saints saying they will be at the wedding of the lamb. its not expressly stated, I think. Im not sure, but the elect are sure they will be. So what if its not recorded that they state they will be there? As if you live by every word of the bible. Why beat me over the head with scripture? jesus said not to call men father…..yet you hurry to call costume holymen Father. You cant do without it. You love it. So don’t hit me with scripture, while your fellow cathols are prostrate at the foot of images. Give me a freakin break.
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So you keep saying, but never providing a single example from Scripture to support your man-made teaching.
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I wasn’t aware I was teaching. All I know is that is was blind and now I see. I see the corrupting of the Word of God in these religions. I see vanity. I can see. And its is scary. its scary to see people who will spend eternity in hell. It depresses me constantly.
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And yet, you can provide me with not a single example of anyone in the whole of Scripture saying ‘I am saved’ or being sure they would be at the Wedding Feast? I see in you no joy, which is what I get from knowing Jesus.
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Good brother Steven, did you see the above conversation I just had with good brother Chalcedon? The simplest things in scripture he doesn’t even know. yet he is a big bad know everything cathol. And you say I disrupt things. I disrupt this cavalcade of religious nonsense and falsehoods and interject the truth of the scriptures. This is what the darkness hates. And sadly, you hate it too.
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No, Bosco. You made the startling claim to be the same as Elisha. Elish was taken from this earth by God. You are still here. In short, you cannot give me a single example from the whole of Scripture which matches your experience. You are busted, and your lying spirit in you knows it – hence you cast around like a demon in a trap.
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You asked me if anyone said they know god. Elisha knew god and walked with him. There are tons more but im not going to give them.
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No, I asked you to give me an example of a single person saying they were ‘saved’ and were going to be at the Wedding Feast. You cited Elisha, who never said he was saved, and whom God took from the earth. You are still here, and Elisha never once used the words ‘I am saved’. Busted, Bosco.
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You know after five years of Bosco, I think I’ve come to understand the inquisition. I think it was simple frustration with those who would not shut up, and would not listen, ever. 🙂
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He has no answers.
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None, whatsoever. Seems to me that everybody with a claim to be Christian, even Paul after his visit, ended up baptised, as well.
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Bosco now tells us he was baptised – but still can’t give me an example of anyone talking as he does in the NT.
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Probably fell in the ocean, likely on his head! I don’t know of anyone who ever did, either.
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All very strange. Naturally, he has gone quiet.
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Always does, when he’s not allowed ad hominems and has no answer.
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True, that.
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I’ll say this for him, though, he’s a persistent bugger. I wouldn’t hang around a site for five years that always made fun of me, when they weren’t ignoring me.
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It must be the spirit in him 🙂
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Must be 🙂
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I cant hog the computer all day.
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yeah, Ok good brother….im busted.
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I do not doubt you acquired a spirit; I am very dubious about its provenance.
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