Some of you might wonder why bother putting up Bosco’s post? The answer is that although he might be a particularly crass example of anti-Catholic bigotry, he simply says more crudely what others say with more guile.
The method is one with which we are all familiar. In the first place there is never, even once, a reference to any Catholic document more recent than Trent, and usually no reference to any Catholic document at all. Where a Catholic source is used, it will be cited in no context and whatever it says will be taken as authoritative. So, from some website or other, Bosco came across a reference to Fr O’Brien’s Faith of the Millions’ as though it were the Catechism. Let us see what authoritative Catholic teaching says about the priesthood:
876 Intrinsically linked to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry is its character as service. Entirely dependent on Christ who gives mission and authority, ministers are truly “slaves of Christ,”392 in the image of him who freely took “the form of a slave” for us.393 Because the word and grace of which they are ministers are not their own, but are given to them by Christ for the sake of others, they must freely become the slaves of all.394
Why does Bosco not use such public sources from the teaching authority of the Church? Because he can’t twist those sources to fit what he has been taught he ought to think. I doubt he has ever seen a copy of Fr O’Brien’s book, but he found a quotation on the internet which fitted his prejudice and cited it as though it is Catholic teaching. Sad or bad? The product of ignorance or prejudice? Who can tell? The truth is easy to discover, so what are we to make of an adult who, rather than trying to discover it, opts for a random quotation which matches his own prejudices? That such a person should claim to be inspired by a ‘new spirit’ is worrying; what sort of ‘spirit’ leads a man to a well of lies?
Another trope of anti-Catholic polemic is to misrepresent Catholic teaching, and to provide no references to the real thing. Thus we find Bosco saying:
‘The scriptures say that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The catholic church says its Mass is a bloodless sacrifice.’
The Church teaches that Calvary was the once and for all sacrifice offered for our redemption. Every Mass sees that ‘re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day.’ So easy to find what the Church teaches, so again, one wonders about the motive of someone who cannot do a basic internet search to discover that.
Bosco’s next target is that statement that
‘ one must believe Jesus is truly and bodily in the wafer, or Host, I think, and another being that one must believe what they say about anything, or they are damned.’
Jesus tells us to eat his body and blood in John 6:52-59, and we see a lot of his followers turning away, because, like Bosco, they could not take what he said literally. As the Church teaches:
18. The scholastic Doctors made similar statements on more than one occasion. As St. Thomas says, the fact that the true body and the true blood of Christ are present in this Sacrament “cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith, which rests upon divine authority. This is why Cyril comments upon the words, This is my body which is delivered up for you, in Luke 22, 19, in this way: Do not doubt that this is true; instead accept the words of the Savior in faith; for since He is truth, He cannot tell a lie.” [(6)Summa Theol. III,(a) q. 75, a. 1, c.]
In short, there is good Biblical warrant for believing, as the Orthodox and Catholics do that Christ is present in the Eucharist. One might, in good faith, argue over the meaning, but to argue, as he does, that there is something unBiblical in Catholic teaching is to show oneself ignorant of both Scripture and history.
As is usual one misrepresentation os followed by another, and, again, typically, the allegations become odder and odder, Bosco’s version of this is as follows:
This Romanish practice of bringing down Christ from heaven to sacrifice him again and again in order to relieve those in attendance from their sins means the Romanish religion says that Christs sacrifice on Calvary wasn’t enough.
The problem with this is it is made up by Bosco and those like him. Catholic teaching is clear:
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”190
No anti-Catholic polemic would be complete without an allegation that the early Church was not liturgical in its worship. As ever, Bosco’s offering is oddly expressed:
Then in around 70 AD, the temple was destroyed, the alter was destroyed, the records of all the Levite priests were destroyed. All of that symbolic stuff was gone. We don’t need it anymore. the born again are priests and Kings in the Kingdom of heaven. God used to dwell in Solomon’s temple, but now he dwells in heaven and no more will dwell in tabernacles made by human hands.
The authority for the statement ‘all that symbolic stuff was gone’ seems to be Bosco’s unaided reason. The Didache, which dates from after AD 70 suggests that the early Church continued a liturgical form of worship. But as Bosco knows no history, but knows what he wants to think, he makes a bold statement offering no evidence and denies all other evidence.
These things usually end up in a very odd place, and this is Bosco’s:
The Romanish religion, not satisfied with Christs one time sacrifice, has built alters and temples and some golden cage that they claim God crawls into for their amusement. Levites were the priests. But the Church on Vaticanus Hil has its own false priest, its own false alters and its own false tabernacles.
Bosco offers no evidence for the statement that we claim ‘God crawls into’ a cage, nor that the Pope is a false priest. By this stage, the polemicist is so drunk on his own infallibility he ceases to offer even the slightest evidence; rant is all we get. All very sad and predictable.
Naturally, no anti-Catholic bigotry would be complete without an unreferenced mention of Queen Mary I of England. So we get this:
Queen Mary of England, a devout catholic, and with the smiling approval of the Holy Father on vaticanus Hill, burned to death anyone caught saying that Christ was not really the “real” presence in the Catholic Euchrist, or monsterance, or what ever that thing they have during their re sacrifice of the Risen Lord. Not to mention she went about to confiscate every bible the people had in their native tongue.
For those interested in some facts, there is a post here basing itself on the latest historical research. If Bosco’s purpose had been to show us that in the past people did horrible things to each other in Christ’s name, that would be one thing, but to suggest it was only the Catholics is, alas, dishonest.
As one might expect from the source, Bosco manages to finish with a flourish
The Romanish religion claims that this unbiblical Mass is the pinnacle, the height of its devotional life. And this is where God is encountered. Not enough to be at the height of blasphemy, it tells little children that to miss one of these blasphemous rituals is to bring downs Gods wrath upon them in the form of a eternity in hell. This alone is inexcusable.
Unbiblical? I suppose Bosco has not read the accounts of the Last Supper. St Paul believed that Jesus was present in the Mass, and we do so too. If Bosco could provide chapter and verse for us telling little children they will go to hell for missing a Mass, it would be useful.
But then, of course, none of this stuff has any anchoring in reality. It is the product of centuries of anti-Catholic bigotry. Bosco will not stop, but then in five years here he has established only one thing, that to the bigot, nothing is as dear as the bad ideas lodged in a narrow understanding. In the end, he is a case for the psychologist. What odd imperative drives someone to repeat the same old discredited charges again and again?
I think one of the most helpful things I have found over the years was this story told by an Anglican vicar at a conference. I forget the actual details – it involved him seeing some RC priests blessing a ship or canal with a thurible. He said that in the old days he would have been tempted to ignore them or even oppose them, but on reflection and guidance from the Spirit he came to this gem: “You do it your way and I do it my way. Together we get the job done.” That sentence has stuck with me over the years. It has been a restraining force, a voice of the conscience.
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May I congratulate you on your method of answering Bosco. No bunfight: just the calm and coherent application of evidence, reason and conscience. That approach is by far the best answer to prejudice.
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Thank you – I value that greatly.
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Chalcedon, the issue of tolerance is one that I have found intriguing of late. In fact I came to WordPress because I had a perspective I wished to share on tolerance by reference to the problematic subject of Islam.
I was first exposed Islam in 1987 when I was privileged spend a summer travelling around India engaging with different religious traditions. I came away greatly impressed with Buddhism, Hindu traditions and (most of all) Sikhism – but Islam left me struggling to see the merit in its teaching and I regret to say that the intervening 30 years has not changed this. Since then, however, I have become more concerned that Islam as a value system represents, not merely an inaccessible theology, but a v real threat to liberty abroad and increasingly at home too. My challenge to myself was how to articulate this analysis and proposing a response, without becoming as intolerant, or appearing to others to so become, as as those whom I criticise for intolerance. Hence my WordPress ‘handle’, and my developing interest in tolerance generally.
I completed my thoughts and posted them. It is my only substantive post on WordPress to date, although I am working on a second.
I sense from your posts ‘Islam and the West’ from July 2016 and March 2017 that you see more to Islam than I have been able to glean thus far. Although you clearly have many works of your own still to post, may I invite you to visit my site and possibly see if there is something you might add to my understanding?
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I shall do that.
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Enthusiastically agree! Although, it’s hard to find when most can’t hold more than one thought in their underdeveloped brains.
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Steady now.
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I thank good brother Chalcedon for putting up contradictory evidence. I see im being called prejudiced.That means to pre judge something or someone. I guess it sounds good rolling off the tongue. The most common name I get is a” hater” of catholic people. Of course the latter is untrue and the former is equally untrue. But , never the less, I get called names. It makes the devotee of this false religious systems feel better. Violence I also another way of getting rid of an unwanted messenger. Good thing that is passé or the House on Haunted Hill would still be authorizing burnings. I attended a Mormon church service in Beaver Utah. After the service the whole congregation was split into study groups.I mean everybody. No body left or went home. I caught my bible study teacher misquoting the bible. I believe it was the third time I busted him that a number of the men rose up and chased me out of the building. Same story everywhere. Satan has a knife in your heart…..and when you hear truth, Satan twists it and it hurts, and you want it to stop, and you lash out at who you think is saying theses hurting words. That’s just how it works.
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Prejudice means that you have prejudged things and will not let evidence effect you. Can you tell us all which one of these things is not true of you?
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In other words, Bosco has an anti-Catholic bias.
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I think that, with the possible exception of Bosco, no one could dispute that. But bless him, he’s been here five years saying the same things, which is why some of the regulars get a bit frustrated. All I can do is witness to him and let the good Lord do the rest.
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As another commentator already said, I applaud your calm responses. I would assume that you have gotten used to this scourge over the years.
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Scourge. I bring the Word of God in here. Nothing is mine. The Word of God shines a light in the darkness and the darkness hates it.
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You bring some confused thoughts of your own – do not mistake that for God.
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You do no such thing, Bosco. You bring ridiculous ideas that early Christians would have found to be heretical. You don’t talk with Christians from other countries, especially those with traditions going back to the very beginnings of the Faith. You simply regurgitate the silly garbage peddled by modern pseudo-historians like Alexander Hislop and his progeny. The moment you cease with the nonsense and actually study history, that most uncomfortable of subjects for you, the sooner you’ll be on your way home to the Apostolic Church, be it Orthodox, Catholic, Copt or Anglican. All would welcome you after repentance.
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Thank you good brother Rudy.
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but to argue, as he does, that there is something unBiblical in Catholic teaching is to show oneself ignorant of both Scripture and history.
I have stated befor, numerous times, that the CCs dogma is 95% good food. The faithful eat it and die spiritually. The simple faith laid out in the gospels is choked out of them and replaced with unending volumes of Canons, and the need for Canon lawyers. Their young have it no better. They are socked in the face with hell fire if they miss one of these Masses. Really now, do you all think this is the work of the holy spirit?
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I asked you for one piece of authoritative Catholic teaching which tells the young they will go to hell if they miss Mass. You simply restate it; this, Bosco, is not evidence of anything – except your prejuduce.
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The CC has a way to get rid of mortal sin. Climb into a box with a costume, confess what ever your sin is, and he will give you a set amount of hail Marys to say. that’s because god will hear you for your much speaking. Jesus spoke of little else.
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We confess our sins to God. Jesus founded a Church and gave it the power to bind and loose sins – it is in the Bible, Bosco, try reading it.
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Ive read the bible. Jesus doesn’t have a church at Rome.
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You don’t say. Well, on that basis, do tell me why you accept the Bible as it is, because the Bible does not have a list of the books that are in it.
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tHE HOLY GHOST GAVE ME THE SCRIPTURES. You give the credit to men. No matter….we have the scriptures now.
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No, the Holy Spirit gave them to you through the Church – unless you are making the extraordinary claim that the HS dictated them to you – and with you, who knows?
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Deliberately missing Mass on a Sunday or holy day is a mortal sin if one isn’t ill and can attend, but simply doesn’t bother. But in order to commit a mortal sin, the act must really be sinful, one must KNOW that it is sinful———-and one must freely will it. You didn’t know, so it wasn’t a sin. People often forget about holy days.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=703842
Need more? I got all you can eat.
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So where does that say an infant goes to hell? It is clear from what you quote that this does not apply to infants. Exposed in another lie.
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Infant going to hell? Uh, where did that come from? Im talking about kids starting at sunday school and up are told to miss mass is mortal sin. I don’t know where you got infants from. Maybe you confused me with someone else.
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You were the one that mentioned it; do keep up.
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You will have to remind me of where I said that. Cut and paste it for me. Thanks in advance.
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Ill look for it. But I heard this from the mouth of a catholic priest. I have no reason to make this up. if I just made up things , that would destroy any credible witness that I have.
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You have zero credibility Bosco.
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By this stage, the polemicist is so drunk on his own infallibility he ceases to offer even the slightest evidence;
The reason why I, Bosco the Heretic, didn’t site any sources is because every good practicing catholic knows what im saying is true, mainly because they participate in these rituals. Comparing CC dogma against the light of the gospel is sure to anger the papist. They cant believe their faith is in opposition to Christ himself. Why?…well the CC says its gods true church, and yould better believe it or be ananthema, and you don’t want to be ananthema.
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Bosco, you clearly have strong views that Catholicism is misconceived. However, your suggestion cannot be correct that all Catholics in fact know that what you are saying is true. I am a practising Catholic and do not know that Catholicism is false (or else I would not confess it). I rather assume that the same goes for pretty much everyone else in my church. I have never met a fellow practising Catholic who does not believe (except of course for those who feign belief in order to get their children into our excellent schools) and unless one had such an unlterior motive, following a false religion would make little sense.
May I suggest that, as a reasonable person, you start from the position that people who reach different conclusions to yourself about theology do so in good faith, and adopt a tone appropriate to Christians serving Jesus in different ways that seem to them right. If you do not, I fear that you will be unable to persuade anyone of anything, and your reflections and strength of feeling risk being wasted.
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Sir, you must understand that Bosco has no comprehension of paragraphs. Sentences, maybe. You must learn to break it down for him. You should have stopped with one sentence and phrased that as a question. You have now caused him to beat his head up-side a wall.
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Good brother Tolerance, these people in here are sincere and god loving people…..I always tell them that. They also need to come to Christ and ask to have him show himself to them. Their religion isn’t a substitute for a relation. I try to show them the anti scriptural practices that drive them futher away from Christ instead of bringing them closer. Take for instance graven images. These don’t bring one closer to God, they drive one further away. I mean, its only written in stone by the hand of God, but that doesn’t matter to them. heck, the catholic bible took out the 2nd commandment. Do you wish to tell me im wrong?
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In which case you need to evidence that, which, if you are right, should be easy. So instead of saying every Catholic knows you are right (I am a Catholic and I know you are wrong), you need to cite the evidence.
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If you do not back up your accusations with actual sources, then all it is is our word against yours.
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Good brother Patrick, I don’t have the energy to sit here and make stuff up. The cathols reading this who know what im says is true, wont speak up. Happens all the time. I have zero reason to sit here and lie about anything.
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So why do it? You must know that most of what you say is a confused mish-mash of misunderstanding and lies.
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But you seem to be lazy by not citing sources. In an argument, you need to cite official sources.
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Do I need an official source to say that missing mass is a mortal sin?
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No, but you do need it of you are claiming infants go to hell for missing it.
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Sorry good brother, I don’t recall saying infants go to hell because of missing mass. I don’t believe that now and I wouldn’t have believed it yesterday. I don’t put any stock in catholic mumbo jumbo. I just point out the cruelty dished out to children by scaring them with mortal sin(hell fire). How sick. I don’t care what happens to adults because of their religion. But I care what happens to the most helpless and impressionable. May you adults get battered and beaten and pounded into the ground like a nail by your religions burdens laid on your backs. But keep you claws off the children.
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Children are not threatened with hell – look back at the link you gave, which made it clear that this only applies to adults. Your statement was: ‘Their young have it no better. They are socked in the face with hell fire if they miss one of these Masses.’ – That was you, the link you gave made it clear that only those of the age of reason commit a mortal sin. Why tell lies Bosco? They are so easily exposed, and then you move on to tell some more, and when called on the first lie you always say you never said it. Can you not see that this Spirit in you likes lying|?
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For those trying to understand Bosco’s comments on this post, I should point out that he didn’t actually read it before commenting. Or after. And won’t. Ever.
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Isnt there a nice freeway you could go play on?
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I asked you for one piece of authoritative Catholic teaching which tells the young they will go to hell if they miss Mass.
In this age of Catholic laxity, many have lost sight of the fact that it is a grave (i.e., mortal) sin to skip Mass on Sunday or a holy day of obligation when one is able to attend. But a glance at the liturgical life of the early Christian generations will show us the depth and urgency of Mass obligation.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/why-is-it-a-mortal-sin-to-miss-mass
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
https://culbreath.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/pope-francis-skipping-mass-and-the-sunday-obligation/
This is typical of false religion people, to not be sure of what their own cult of personality teaches. its really hard for me to believe that the big bad know everything about Catholicism good brother Chalcedon didn’t know this. Maybe he doesn’t want to admit to this being catholic teaching. Theres a lot of stuff cathols would like to just go away about their beloved religion. Hahahaha.
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I missed where he said infants go to hell – could you quote that bit?
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Where did infants come into this? So I showed you what you ask and you still are trying somehow to ridicule me? Don’t bother sayin……gee thanks Bosco for showing me what I asked for.
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You brought infants in – look back through your comments.
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How can infants be scared with hell fire when they don’t speak yet? I think you are confusing me with someone else. It happens. No hard feelings.
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To clarify, murder (killing of innocent life) is indeed a mortal sin, as is willfully missing Sunday Mass when one otherwise could have gone.
http://spokanefavs.com/ask-a-catholic-murder-missing-mass-are-both-mortal-sins/
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Did you actually read that? Not only does it not say that infants will go to hell for missing Mass, it makes it clear that only adults will be committing a mortal sin. But I guess it’s that reading thing again.
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Once again, why are you throwing infants at me? Are you insinuating I said infants go to hell for missing mass? I didn’t say that. maybe you are hearing voices in your head. No matter what proof I show you, im always wrong. Just like the jehovas.
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You brought them in – as ever you have no idea what you write.
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I don’t see it. maybe you can find it and cut and paste it. Rub it in my nose. I will accept my punishment if I said that. But the CC did teach that unbaptized babies go to limbo, which is one step above hell. Just like purgatory, not one word of it is true. But in defense of cathols, I used to believe in things that weren’t there.
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Bosco, do your own homework.
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I won’t say much here, sounds like it won’t end well. but the author of this post hasn’t approached this very well. particularly in the title. Sounds a bit rude and having the typical Catholic sense of, “I’m right, you’re wrong, and it’s been like that for over 700 years”
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Bosco has been here for five years saying what he says – I think you will struggle to find anyone else who has not banned him.
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That’s rite good brother classicalmusicguy, they are right and everyone else is wrong. If you don’t bow befor their graven images, if you don’t bake cakes to the queen of heaven, if you don’t eat crackers out of a costumed holymans hands, if you don’t kiss the Popes ring, you are wrong and need an education.
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You both offer plenty of opinions but no evidence. You, Bosco, misuse words constantly. A ‘graven image’ in the OT was a pagan God. No Catholic worships a pagan god, so there are no graven images; yes, there are ‘images’ but God does not forbid the making of images, he forbids their worship. Now either this piece of the obvious is something you are not bright enough to grasp. in which case the fault is yours and you ought to be ashamed of yourself, or you are deliberately lying. Either way, it is clear you are wrong. As for an education, you have been here five years and still you are as narrow-minded as you were when you came. No one here pays you any mind.
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The image ceases to be nice innocent wonderful art when people bow down befor them inside of places of worship.
But that’s not their real problem. Being unsaved is their real problem.
No matter how much im educated, I still wont bow myself befor a image made by human hands. But don’t let me stop you guys for having your fun. (;-D
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I see this is your opinion. As we have established that by ‘graven image’ God meant an image to worship in his place, and we have established that no Catholic does this, I am not sure why your opinion matters, except to you?
On being ‘saved’, a question. At the Last Judgement will you stand before God to be judged?
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It funny that you never oncehave acknowledged the OR in the 2nd command. Not once.It says not to bow befor the OR worship them. That seems to be standard practice amongst cathols. Once, I think in catholic answers, some idiot gave me some half wit answer. They cant address that. They their friends their aunties, their uncles, their grandparents their parents all bow befor the works of their hands. if they admit its forbidden, they admit their relatives died in sin. You youself wont recognize the OR. Just the worship part, and sit back all smug thinking that you have told off that stupid Bosco. It says….you shall not bow down youself to them OR worship them. But that don’t matter. the unsaved have more to worry about. I was on my way to hell with my idols strapped to my back also.
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No, unlike you, they know the meaning of the term ‘graven image’ it means an image you put in place of God – which even you admit Catholics don’t do. This is a non-issue to everyone except those who insist on not understanding God’s word. But then the fullness of the Faith is in Christ’s Church, so we should not be too hard on you.
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