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Catholicism, Christianity, controversy, Faith, Marian Devotion, orthodoxy, st cyril of alexandria
At the heart of the dispute was not the power struggle depicted by Gibbon and others, but the very nature of our salvation. Nestorius’ position was clear:
That God passed through the Virgin Christokos I am taught by the divine Scriptures, but that God was born from her I have not been taught anywhere
Nostorius argued that those who taught that Mary was Theotokos were ‘heretics’. (Russell, p. 34) This he proclaimed from the cathedra in Constantinople; this it was which so concerned Cyril. As neither of his first two letters secured any concessions from Nestorius, and with the latter clearly marshalling the forces of the Empire against him, Cyril needed to gather his own resources. His attempts to garner support from the sister of Theodosius back-fired; but he fared better elsewhere.
In the summer of 430 Cyril sent Pope Celestine a dossier on Nestorius’ teaching, along with a commentary and patristic testimony. The Pope, no theologian, handed the dossier to his archdeacon, Leo (later Pope Leo the Great) and John Cassian, the two most formidable theologians in the West; they advised him that Cyril was correct. On 11 August 430 a local synod was held in Rome. It condemned the teachings of Nestorius as heretical. Celestine told Cyril of this and appointed him his representative at the synod which it had been announced would take place at Ephesus. Nestorius’ own appeals to Celestine went unanswered. For those who care about such matters, it ought to be noted that both patriarchs appealed to Rome for support.
In November 430 a local synod at Alexandria found Nestorius guilty of heresy. St. Cyril send a third letter to Nestorius containing 12 anathemata which he was required to accept as the price of entering back into communion:
1. If anyone does not confess the Emmanuel to be truly God, and hence the holy virgin to be Mother of God (for she gave birth in the flesh to the Word of God made flesh), let him be anathema.
2. If anyone does not confess that the Word of God the Father was hypostatically united to the flesh so as to be One Christ with his own flesh, that is the same one at once God and man, let him be anathema.
3. If anyone divides the hypostases of the One Christ after the union, connecting them only by a conjunction in terms of honour or dignity or sovereignty, and not rather by a combination in terms of natural union, let him be anathema.
4. If anyone interprets the sayings in the Gospels and apostolic writings, or the things said about Christ by the saints, or the things he says about himself, as referring to two prosopa or hypostases, attributing some of them to a man conceived of as separate from the Word of God, and attributing others (as divine) exclusively to the Word of God the Father, let him be anathema.
5. If anyone should dare to say that Christ was a God-bearing man and not rather that he is truly God as the one natural Son, since the Word became flesh and ‘shared in flesh and blood just like us’ (Heb.2.14), let him be anathema.
6. If anyone says that the Word of God the Father is the God or Lord of Christ, and does not rather confess the same one is at once God and man, since according to the scriptures the Word has become flesh, let him be anathema.
7. If anyone says that Jesus as a man was activated by the Word of God and invested with the glory of the Only Begotten, as being someone different to him, let him be anathema.
8. If anyone should dare to say that the assumed man ought to be worshipped along with God the Word and co-glorified and called ‘God’ as if he were one alongside another (for the continual addition of the phrase ‘along with’ demands this interpretation) and does not rather worship the Emmanuel with a single veneration and render him a single doxology since the Word became flesh, let him be anathema.
9. If anyone says that the One Lord Jesus Christ was glorified by the Spirit, using the power that came through him as if it were foreign to himself, and receiving from him the power to work against unclean spirits and to accomplish divine signs for men, and does not rather say that the Spirit is his very own, through whom he also worked the divine signs, let him be anathema.
10. The divine scripture says that Christ became ‘the high priest and apostle of our confession’ (Heb.3.1) and ‘offered himself for our sake as a fragrant sacrifice to God the Father’ (Eph.5.2). So if anyone says that it was not the very Word of God who became our high priest and apostle when he became flesh and man as we are, but it was someone different to him, a separate man born of a woman; or if anyone says that he made the offering also for himself and not rather for us alone (for he who knew no sin had no need of offerings), let him be anathema.
11. If anyone does not confess that the Lord’s flesh is life-giving and the very-own flesh of the Word of God the Father, but says that it is the flesh of someone else, different to him, and joined to him in terms of dignity, or indeed only having a divine indwelling, rather than being life-giving, as we have said, because it has become the personal flesh of the Word who has the power to bring all things to life, let him be anathema.
12. If anyone does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, was crucified in the flesh, and tasted death in the flesh, becoming the first-born from the dead, although as God he is life and life-giving, let him be anathema.
This, along with the decision of the Roman synod, was conveyed to Nestorius on 30 November. Only two weeks earlier, on 19 November 430, Theodosius II had invited the bishops to a synod to be held at Pentecost (7 June 431). The scene was set for one of the most controversial of all ecumenical councils, and an occasion which would provide Cyril’s opponents with much ammunition.
Bosco the Immaculate said:
That God passed through the Virgin Christokos I am taught by the divine Scriptures, but that God was born from her I have not been taught anywhere
Nostorius argued that those who taught that Mary was Theotokos were ‘heretics’.
Boy, you religion people sure do toss that word Heretic around a lot.
So what about someones beliefs? If your holymen believed that God had any power, they wouldn’t fly off the handle at somes beliefs. If the Holy Spirit guided the church on Vaticanus Hill, it would know to live and let live. But having a form of godliness, , it denies the power thereof.
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chalcedon451 said:
To you, in the grip of your demon, it may seem irrelevant as to whether Jesus was God. To His followers it matters rather a lot.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Nestorius thought Jesus is god. He just didn’t go for the queen of heaven routine.
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chalcedon451 said:
If Jesus was God and Mary was his mother, Mary is either the Mother of God or Jesus is a man.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
nestorious spoke correctly, that anyone who believes that god was born thru Mary is a heretic. But me, personally, I prefer a different word. Idolater. Im assuming your account of this whole nestorious affair is accurate. A council of what I suppose are early catholic clergy, met to condemn Nestorious for his beliefs. I guess they had nothing better to do. You carry on their waste of time by condemning me for not believing in a queen of heaven. I mean, its only soundly forbidden in the bible, for heaven sake.
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chalcedon451 said:
So, here you are saying Jesus was not God? Either Jesus was God, and since Mary was His mother, she bore God, or the person she gave birth to, Jesus, was not God and she was not the Mother of God.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
That’s semantics and could go either way. We both know Mary is not the Mother of God. God has no beginning or end. Jesus is not his flesh. he is spirit. She gave birth to his fleshly earthly body. She is mother to Jesus, the son of man…not the mother to God. But that isn’t so terrible a thing. it becomes a stumbling block when one holds up this humble handmaid as some all powerful queen of heaven that distributes all grace. then people look to her for salvation and in the end they get none.
My daughter is born again. Im happy. If people insist on asking a queen of heaven to save them at the hr of their death, I cant stop them, and im going to stop feeling bad for them.
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chalcedon451 said:
This is dangerous Bosco. Jesus is either fully human & fully divine, or he is not, you cannot separate him out as you – and Nestorius – do. If you think Jesus was just a body with a spirit in it, you do not know Jesus as revealed in the Bible. I worry about you.
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Steven said:
“That God passed through the Virgin Christokos I am taught by the divine Scriptures, but that God was born from her I have not been taught anywhere”
I believe you’re straining too hard to prove a point, my friend. Bypassing all controversies regarding Catholic theology, it’s a simple, scriptural concept: Jesus was born of Mary, Jesus is God, therefore Mary is mother of God. This doesn’t mean that Mary generated God, just that she gave birth to the Incarnate God. To deny that Mary gave birth to God is to deny the Incarnation, I can’t see any way around that fact.
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chalcedon451 said:
But Bosco will wriggle and wriggle, and then find some nonsense to avoid answering the question – as, alas, he always does.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
We all know mary gave birth to Jesus, who shed his divinity to become man. Either way, mother to god or mother to man, its OK.
Whats not OK is elevating a human to some big status and attributing lots of things to her, like being the one to save us all and protect us. That’s idolatry, and its idolatry taught and sanctioned by this religion you subscribe to.
hell has enlarged its borders to accommodate those who never wanted to know the Lord.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
It doesn’t stop there. We must also believe Mary had extra merits.
“Mary (according to Rome) was sinless. She gained far more merit than what was needed for heaven, and so the extra merit she acquired was added to the treasury, along with the merits of saints (who again had more than enough merit to enter heaven for themselves). All excess merit was stored in the treasury. Because of this, the more sinful believers could benefit from the merit of their more saintly brethren.”
Good brother Chalcedon says I preach another gospel. Im looking for where this concept is in my gospel, and your gospel, the bible.
I guess merits are like grocery store stamps. One needs a certain amount to be worthy of heaven. that must put a big strain on some peoples mind if they feel they don’t have enough merit points. probably little children suffer the most.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
This is why the Blessed Virgin is called Powerful—nay, sometimes, All-powerful, because she has, more than anyone else, more than all Angels and Saints, this great, prevailing gift of prayer. No one has access to the Almighty as His Mother has; none has merit such as hers. Her Son will deny her nothing that she asks; and herein lies her power. While she defends the Church, neither height nor depth, neither men nor evil spirits, neither great monarchs, nor craft of man, nor popular violence, can avail to harm us; for human life is short, but Mary reigns above, a Queen for ever.
Blessed John Newman.
may he rest in peace on top of his boyfriend.
\
\No wonder cathols are so devoted to Mary. She is all powerful. better not say that she isn’t the mother of god or you will be ananthema….and you know whaere that will lead…….that’s rite…..the stake.!!!! (;-C
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chalcedon451 said:
You ask us to believe you have a new spirit. If ‘by their fruits ye shall know them’ is correct, then your addiction to lying tells us who the father of that spirit is.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Ok. Point out where I lied or distorted the facts, and ill look at it and see if im wrong. Ill search befor I make up my mind. But please don’t tell me I lied without telling me what was the lie. Then I don’t know what your beef is. Thanks in advance.
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chalcedon451 said:
Time and time again I have done this. You have offered no evidence that Newman was a homosexual, simply said some anti-Catholic sites say so. There is not the slightest evidence Newman was a homosexual, you have produced none, so either you lie by accident through ignorance, or you lie because you spirit is from the father of lies; which is it? Thanks in advance.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
I have learned from my mistakes, if you want to call it that. I said that good brother Newman is on top of his boyfriend. He did live a friend who was a boy. And he is buried on top of him. So those were statements of fact. of course you drew the logical conclusion. Yes, it sounds suspicious, and rightly so. For the life of me, I don’t know what is so unusual about a catholic priest being homosexual.
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chalcedon451 said:
You know, oddly enough, when you live in a Monastic institution you tend to live with men. You are such a bigot. If a Catholic priest is celibate but lives with men, he’s a homosexual; if he isn’t and has affairs with women, you criticise him, and if he interferes with children, and if he celebrates Mass by raising the Host. Literally, there is nothing a priest can do that will not attract your bigoted hatred.
And you ask us to believe that the spirit which motives you is of Christ? Pull the other one, it has bells on it.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Let me correct you alittle bit there parner. When a catholic priest gets with an adult female, I might make fun and point out hes supposed to be celibate, but I don’t think evil of him cause of it. Man is supposed to cleave onto a woman. its a doctrine of demons to forbid to marry. I have praised good brother Corapi many times for his independent thinking. he used the catholic church and its duped followers to make a lot of money, while on the side he had a hunny bunny a resoert home, boats, motorcycles and drank the good booze and smoked the good stuff and snorted the best coke. then he took the money and ran, all the while the head of his sham stupid order was telling him to give it all up and come live in a little room and pray all day. It takes a catholic clergy to be that idiotic. That was pure comedy. Good for Corapi. he took the money and ran. Haaahahahahahahahahaha.
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chalcedon451 said:
In other words, you admit what I said, which is that you will take every opportunity to criticise a priest; than you for the confirmation.
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Fra' Eccles (@BruvverEccles) said:
Bosco, dear, our local priest Father X. Pell de Mons is here with a herd of swine. He thinks he may be able to help you, although of course the pigs are in for a rough time.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
I take it that the herd of swine is you and the readers of your mudpit site.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
In November 430 a local synod at Alexandria found Nestorius guilty of heresy.
1. If anyone does not confess the Emmanuel to be truly God, and hence the holy virgin to be Mother of God (for she gave birth in the flesh to the Word of God made flesh), let him be anathema.
This is not fair. One has to confess Emanuel to be truly god and Mary to be Mother of God in the same clause. To believe Jesus is god one has to believe Mary is Mother of God. They might as well have pointed a gun at good brother Nestorious head and told him to believe or else.
Jesus is a big boy….he can defend himself. We don’t need men in costumes to set the world straight.
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chalcedon451 said:
I see you are still wriggling on the hook. Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to Him. If Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of God. And yes, the fact you clearly are not, yet again, able to answer a simple question, tell us all we need to know about the crooked spirit which infests you. If I were you, I’d go find an exorcist, as there is no evidence that your spirit is anything to do with God, and quite a lot to suggest it is of evil origin; it loves lies, slander, deceit. Ask yourself one question, which Apostle acted as you do?
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Ok, so what eventually happened to good brother Nestorious? You didn’t finish the story. Did the CC clergy have him burned at the stake, or did they tar and feather him, did they run him out of town?
which Apostle acted as you do?
All of them. None of them cared for costumed holyman and none of them cared for graven images. This is not up for debate.
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chalcedon451 said:
No Apostle said “I am saved and cannot lose my salvation” and no Apostle spread lies, as you do. Just pointing it out.
Nestorius went into exile to a monastery in Egypt.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
I don’t see how to write a new post. id like to compare catholic salvation to scriptural salvation.
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chalcedon451 said:
I can’t see why you can’t, but let me check. I have checked, you need to log in with the bozoboy87 login – if you’ve forgotten it, I’ll send a new invitation to your current avatar.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Thanks good brother. Its 12;39 at nite here. Ill do it tomorrow sometime.
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bozoboy87 said:
Thank you good brother. During my reading of Hebrews, it reinforced the notion that Jesus is a man. Why, because it says hes a man. The trinity has 3 parts. God the Father, the Holy Ghost and the son of man. How they separate themselves, I don’t know, but the born again are used to it and don’t question it. Mary gave birth to a human being….a man.
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chalcedon451 said:
Sorry, but as usual, relying solely on your own reading leads you astray. Jesus is the Eternal Word who was there from the beginning (John 1). The Word was made Incarnate in the Virgin Mary. Jesus is man and God – that is what the Bible teaches. If you do not understand, search this site for the word ‘Trinity’
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bozoboy87 said:
Yes, every word you say is true. We as humans just don’t understand.
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chalcedon451 said:
This is very true. That is why the Church told us how to understand the Trinity.
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bozoboy87 said:
well then, more power to you if you understand it. Or rather if your church understands it.
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chalcedon451 said:
I understand enough to know Jesus is God and man.
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